Is the MAF still a necessity in Modern 1st World Australia

[Sheep Guts]

Ok maybe this has been done before. And in no way am I going to bag what the MAF do.

The MAFs aim I belive would be to help and aid Remote Communities and Missions through Aviation support and Ministerial assistance. This a good aim I belive they continue to do this. But these days have they Outgrown what they originally intended to do. I assume they still perform these tasks honourably and get great praise from the Community. But also they are now in competition with Private Enterprise and Community owned Companies in the area of General Charter and RPT. Having lived in these communities in the past and working for Community owned Companies. I witnessed the MAF operations first hand. They do , do alot of community work. But Id say 70 -80 percent of their flying, is General Charter and RPT which could be done by other Commercial entities. Has the original aim of the MAF been outgrown? Are they now filling the shoes where Private enterprise and Community base Companies have the right to compete, on a more level playing field?

Is this just a sign of the times. Maybe the collision of developed and underdeveloped countries where these services are now in competeion where say 10 years ago they werent. I would say the cases of this arent confined to Australia, but must be ocurring in other Countries where development has caught up with the Missionary Aim.


The question is this, do the MAF operate in Mainland USA, and Europe ie, Germany etc.? If not why then in Oz?

In Australia, from what I can see, they are operating in environs that are well serviced by infarstructure and other Aviation Companies.

Being that the case, they compete with these companies in certain areas, offering the same service at similair prices. Sometimes quoting lower to get jobs.

Heres another biting question. Do Australian Church goers know where there pledges are going to and how it is used?

Being a Non-Profit Organisation, the MAF pays little or no taxes and also doesnt Pay its Pilots that much either from what I here.

There begs another question. Are there any MAF Pilots in the AFAP ? If so, due they subscribe to the award?

Armed with these extras can they justify competing with Companies that dont have tax perks?

Formerly the MAF operated to and for Communities in need until these Communities got grants and recognition and now can facilitate there on Companies. Now these Community owned Companies are competing with the MAF. Do the CEOs of these Companies enjoy the competition?

I am just asking some questions I feel needs answering and seeing if there is an Identfyable need for the MAF in Australia Today?

Open for discussion

Sheep

P.S. Additionally to this, another recent occurence has the MAF operating Community funded Airlines, which obviously arent exempt from the taxes, but do they Pay the Pilots in these cases the award or something similair?

[thinking pilot]

If you love god, money is not important.

There all going to heaven.

[compressor stall]

Slightly off track mate, but from your experience, would you call
Ngukurr, Balgo, Borroloola, Lajamanu first world?

And check your PMs!!!!

[tinpis]

:E

Stallie ya forgot Tennant Creek and Katherine.

(hmmm..certain areas of Palmerston could use a missionary)

[Sheep Guts]

Stallie have tried to respond to your previous PMs. But it comes back that your inbox is full. Better call the Maid? :)

[compressor stall]

Sorry mate - lost track of how many were in there...!

All clear now. Was starting to get paranoid that noone was PMing me back!!!

She was cute too in that little black outift.

Oh hang on that was the skimpy in the pub last night

[Capt EFIS]

Sheep Guts,

The time that I was working up in the Alice, we found that they were starting to compete more on the charters to places outside their regular services.

They used to take away some business, however, never on Sundays !!!

[Sector3]

Pilots' (General Aviation) Award 1998


List of Respondents (http://www.wagenet.gov.au/Wagenet/Search/view.asp?docid=187240&query=()&page=35&quickview=Y)

South Australia/Northern Territory
Missionary Aviation Fellowship

[compressor stall]

Many of the respondents to that award don't pay it!!! :mad:

[Emeus]

MAF pays no tax.
No company tax, no payroll tax. They are even exempt from council rates.
Yet they compete with regular businesses who do pay their share of taxes.
There are only 2 countries in the world that allow the commercial arms of religious organisations a tax free life - Australia & NZ.
So MAF can always undercut and still survive.
God works in msyterious ways!

[High Altitude]

All those benefits and there also such a helpful mob...

[MAFMan]

Emeus
MAF pays no tax.
No company tax, no payroll tax. They are even exempt from council rates.

MAF is structured as a non profit organisation, incorporated under the Australian Corporations Law as a 'Company Limited by Guarantee'.

MAF does pay Company Tax.
MAF does pay Payroll Tax.
MAF staff do pay Income Tax.
MAF does pay Council Rates.

MAF is committed to legal, moral and financial integrity in all matters.

MAF is a respondent to the Pilots' (General Aviation) Award 1998 and provides staff with a package as good as, or better, than the award.

God works in msyterious ways!
Yes!! He certainly does!

:O

Mission Aviation Fellowship - Australia (http://www.maf.org.au)
Mission Aviation Fellowship - US (www.maf.org)
Mission Aviation Fellowship - UK (http://www.maf-uk.org)

[Sheep Guts]

Ok MAF Man,
You say you pay tax I believe you. So you are saying that your Company competes on a level playing field with its competitors? And by paying all your taxes and Rates etc, you are saying that non of these Government Bodies give you any reductions or tax breaks? I though Non Profit Companies were entitled to an enormity of breaks? Surely so?

Surely not, if you have the advantage of accrewing income via other methods.

Quote:

Flying for Life


We need your help to ensure that MAF can keep reaching people in the most remote areas…



The call came through on the bush radio. A mother in the latter stages of delivering a new baby was bleeding and in pain.

Urgent medical attention was needed if this mother was to survive. Unfortunately she was in a village 50 kilometres from any hospital or clinic. Even the road was too far away to be of any use. Only an MAF flight could save her.

But the only available aircraft at the nearest MAF base was in for repairs and maintenance again. It would be impossible for it to be airborne in time to save this woman's life and the life of her unborn child.

This tragic event actually happened and could easily happen again at any time. Because of a shortage of aircraft or our planes being out of action due to maintenance, lives of people in remote areas are constantly put at risk.

To ensure that lives are not lost, the MAF fleet of aircraft in PNG and North Australia needs replacing. Aircraft are getting old and tired. Costly maintenance is tying up valuable resources and reducing the ability of MAF to be as effective as it could be.

Brand new Cessnas worth $30,000 in 1975 cost in excess of $600,000 today. Some of the MAF Cessna 206's have flown over 15,000 hours and the average age of aircraft in the fleet is 24 years. We desperately need to replace these planes. Can you help?

Currently our Aircraft Replacement Fund stands at almost $150,000. It's a great effort but much more is needed. New aircraft are expensive.

Can you help? Your gift will help to provide:




a new GA8 short take off and landing (STOL) low maintenance airvan. Estimated cost: $638,000

a new Cessna 206-G valued at $600,000 for operations in PNG

PT6A-34 Twin Otter engines valued at $500,000 each


Unquote

from MAF website

Well I must admit that you do great service, inresponse to needy situations, but really many Companies are now in these remote regions you operate and give similair service. There are countless untold similair stories from Non MAF Companies in these regions.

But these companies dont and cant hide under the NGO Shield and ask for funds to help maintain their entities and Fleets etc.

Imagine if the MAF Operated a Low Cost Airline around Australia and supported it on Church peldges, in direct competition with Virgin Blue and QANTAS. Hard to believe, but that is what is happening Ladies and Gentlemen in our Northern Reaches. Its being on a collision course now for a while , and I think its time Goals need to be shifted, and the Truth needs to be told on both sides of the "Pledge Plate".


Food for Thought

Sheep

[scud_runner]

MAFman Are you claiming that your 402 drivers are on or more than roughly $38000 + allowances or of he drives the C208 too then $42000 + allowances??? Plus more if he is a C & T guy!! ???

And do MAF pay all your allowances as well??

As for being there if the Aboriginal Councils want them to run their air services then good on them!!!! If the aboriginals don't want them there they can always ask them to leave. If other operators want to get rid of MAF then all you need to do is show the councils why you can do it better than MAF can. Whether you can or not is yet to be tested.

However I don't believe if their main business is charter etc that they should be taking donations to support that and parade around as a charitable organisation. If they want to be commercial then it should be run as such. I think this charity/commercial thing has become very blurred over the years. Essentially the donations for Australian guys are ultimately subsidising aboriginal businesses. When was the last time someone in Australia flew around on a MAF plane for free or got medivac??? Noone!!! That's why we have RFDS and NT Air Ambo!!

[MAFMan]

Sheep Guts

You say you pay tax I believe you. So you are saying that your Company competes on a level playing field with its competitors? And by paying all your taxes and Rates etc, you are saying that non of these Government Bodies give you any reductions or tax breaks? I though Non Profit Companies were entitled to an enormity of breaks? Surely so?

MAF is NOT-FOR-PROFIT not non-profit...there is a big difference!!

[Natit]

Does anyone know the min. hour requirements for MAF?

Searched their site but didn't find much, only an application form and a list of their aircraft.

Cheers.

N

[Sheep Guts]

Maf man,


I was only going on your previous post.

MAF is structured as a non profit organisation, incorporated under the Australian Corporations Law as a 'Company Limited by Guarantee'.

So the Oxford meaning of Non-Profit is:

non-profit

• adjective not making or intended to make a profit.

NOT-FOR-PROFIT I cant find a meaning. Could you please explain what this means? And tell me the difference, and where you mentioned NOT-FOR-PROFIT in your previous posts?

Regards
Sheep

[112.3]

the not for profit christians are in the stadium surrounded by a ferocious pack of non-profit Lions.

who eats who first????:p

[boofta]

Tried to join the MAFia many years ago with a couple of tours
in PNG,around 2000 hours twin, ANO 28 for all of PNG, but sadly
the chief pilot in Ballarat said I was'nt qualified.
He said I had to be committed to work for the MAFia, never did
work out what he meant, until I got struck by lightning one day!

[turbinejunkie]

MAF man,

I would be very interested to see what is the so-called equivalent GA Award package that MAF offers to its pilots.

A pilot who used to fly with them (less than 5 years ago), got about $12,000 p.a. gross salary, 'free' housing and superannuation based on the MAF retirement fund.

There was also free travel on the MAF RPT but that was about it.

A long way short of the Award.

MAF argue that their salary is sacrificed to live in the isolated spots they operate in. They in effect charge their staff to live in their housingat least $14,000 p.a (where they are based in the various isolated parts of Australia, PNG and other places that MAF plonks them).

Not a bad rent (from their staff) either - (as with MAF all revenue sources are welcome)!

Meanwhile, MAF keep plugging for donations from earnest churchgoers while operating as a commercial organisation, maintaining that is what is required to remain viable. Any excess funds earned go back into the organisation as revenue which they put to their aircraft acquisition and refurbishment, maintenance, operations and infrastructure. (No different to anybody else!). Tax breaks are gladly accepted as well.:}

No benelovence there.:suspect:

I know that the staff at the coal-face are outstanding and have a real heart towards the people they serve, but I think that the management have a lot to answer for.

Their whole missionary rationale is compromised with the reality that they are indeed commercial (like any other operator) under the Missionaries guise.

I know this is / has been a real source of tension and distress for the staff of MAF regarding their own roles / identity.:ugh:

It's about time MAF cleaned up its act and stopped their disgraceful, hypocritical double-act, by honestly stating who they are and operated according to who they claim to be. :yuk: :* :mad:

TJ:{

[bushy]

Australia does not need MAF, and never did. There have always been commercial operators who could, and did provide services to outback australia. I have great admiration for the MAF operations that I saw, and there were some good people working there.
But let's not pretend that they were competeing commercially on a level playing field, or giving the outback residents cheap flying.
The taxpayer contributed a lot to these operations, one way or another.
An AOC for charter or RPT is an approval to conduct COMMERCIAL operations, and should not be issued to "not for profit" organisations, clubs, associations and other bodies that have commercial advantage. They are not allowed to compete with qantas.

[drshmoo]

Boofta
To meet the requirements for MAF you need to be conversant with their ops maual- the one written by Mathew, Marc, Luke & John.

[112.3]

I have seen first hand, the great work that MAF do in the community. I think that if MAF were to leave a community in PNG and North Australia the locals would suffer.
so I think you are wrong Bushy with your statement about MAF being out of date and behind the times.
I feel sorry for guys like you that are narrow minded and your thinking is limited to the things of the world??
it is good to see that there are people out there in life who dont just care about themselves. there are a lot of pilots in MAF who could be flying for Qantas and DJ. But they dont have to go out there to get the biggest houses and best cars to feel important.

keep up the good work around the world MAF!!!!!

[The Other Half]

112.3 Whatever conviction you are or whether you are a church goer or not cannot be established, nor should it matter. People can only read so much into your postings. However what is clear is that you apparently take the view of anyone who doesn't share the same view as themselves is wrong/immoral/evil! Describe it as you will whether you are a church goer or not. I was forced this Black and White view of the world when growing up and it's a load of BS, I see more than Black and White.
There are good and bad people on both sides and blatently casting the same brush over anyone that isn't part of a particular group IS VERY NARROW MINDED in itself. Not everyone in QANTAS or for that matter outside of MAF is money hungry. :*
I feel sorry for guys like you that are narrow minded and your thinking is limited to the things of the world?? How the hell do you know he doesn't think of things that aren't wordly?!!!! That is so typical! MAF do a great service to the communities, but why the hell do people need to attend church to understand things that aren't wordly? :yuk: People are spiritual in other ways. Wars and the like have started through-out the eons from that basic mentality of "We are right and you are not." It's quite obvious what your views are.

Keep the personal insults to yourself, lest the Spirit of Banning come up and smite thee

Woomera

[grrowler]

there are a lot of pilots in MAF who could be flying for Qantas and DJ.

Yeah..... right:rolleyes:

As already stated, there are plenty of other "real" companies providing the same services.

NOT FOR PROFIT!?!?! If they were fair dinkum about it they would be true non-profit and give their "accidental" profits back to the communities they supposedly care about.

[Keg]

Woomera, you opened the door to this so I'll just ensure that I stick my foot in it to make sure it doesn't shut before I get some of this out.

Firstly, I appreciate the initial sentiment toward 112.3. As a Christian bloke who also happens to be a Qantas pilot, it's not about 'making myself feel important' and 112.3's comments are a tad over zealous an a sad slight on the other Christians that I've flown with.

However, some food for thought based on a few of your 'other' comments.

1. I don't view those who differ from me as 'evi'. Fundamentally, on some level, we ALL fit that category. No one is casting stones here.

2. Yes, people can be spiritual in lots of ways. Buddhist monks are spiritual as are muslims and so on. The BIG difference is that EVERYONE thinks that their spiritualism is the 'right' one. This is where it gets 'interesting'. You can't have one and the others ALSO be true. Christianity is either fair dinkum or it's not. You can't be a Christian and accept that other religions may ALSO be true. It just doesn't work like that. Similarly, you can't be a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Morman, etc, etc and accept that Christianity is ALSO true. Tis one or the other. Therefore, no religion can accept anothers form of spirituality. That the world continues to say 'to each their own' or 'whats true for you may not be true for me' is distorted logic. It's either 'Truth' or it's not!

3. Like most people who don't understand Christianity particularly well, you make the mistake of assuming that 'Church' is a building that you have to attend to be 'good' with God. Church is more about relationships and is made of people rather than a building.. The actual building is just that- a building of bricks and mortar with an organ in the corner!

4. Yes, wars have started over 'religion' and these are generally thought to be the fault of whichever God has been professed at the time. Spanish Inquisition, Northern Ireland, Crusades, etc have all had a 'religious' basis but have ALWAYS been more about political power than the religios beliefs of the respective sides. However, it does go back and illustrate point 1 again. That we are all fundamentally evil in our own way and capable of distorting the 'truth' for our own gains.

5. The question becomes then what is done about our evilness. If you believe in God, can he accept us with our faults? Is it a set of scales that has all the 'good' things on one side and the 'bad' things on another and come judgement as long as we end up tilted towards the 'good' then we're set? I'll come back to that in a second.

6. There is a TRUCKLOAD of evidence out there regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus. More than in fact exists about the Trojan wars. More than exists about Ancient Greece. More than exists for the writings of Mohammed. The bible has dates, times, places and people to cross check and reference. A lot of these are backed up by independant accounts from non Biblical sources including Jewish and Roman historians. The darkness that Matthew quotes as descending on the earth when Jesus died is reported in independant texts on the other side of the Mediterraenean. Therefore, if we prove that Jesus DID live, die and rise again, we've instantly proved all the other religions as false and therefore the issue DOES become that black and white. Again, there can be no half measures here. Christianity (in it's basic tenents as outlined in the bible) is either all right or all wrong. It's that simple.

Anyway, I'm sure this will now close the thread however, just keep in mind that it was one of the Woomeri that opened this up to a response such as mine! Just trying to assist with some Christian context. I know that some will view my comments as extreme provacation and may even deride me for them. Thats cool. Things this black and white generally DO make people feel uncomfortable because it becomes very obvious that there is a choice to make- a choice that a lot of people feel much better about when they avoid!

What does this all mean for MAF? I have no idea however I would agree that we should be able to discuss the issue without throwing insults around about things that we don't know about each other. :ok:

Regards,
Keg

[The Other Half]

I agree with virtually all you say KEG. You express your thoughts in a more balanced and assertive way, the way it should be. My dad used to be a Minister so I think I have an idea or "understand" about how things go along. All religions are based on what you have said, its the overzelous ones that make it particularly unejoyable to both those inside the religion and out. I am a Christian as well. Lets lock this thread.
Cheers :ok:

[thinking pilot]

Nothing worse than self righteous born again christians, pilots or not.

Nothing worse than the smug self confidence that they have it all worked out. I'm proud to say I have no idea about the after life.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I no whats going on.

[112.3]

Thank you keg,

you were spot on. ehhh all of you give me a break.
I was in a hurry to work and I did nt have the time to explain myself quite like keg could.
just lay off on the MAF bashing ok.

dont worry I guess i just getting excited by calling him a narrowminded person.

[Capt Snooze]

The Other Half,

Do I correctly understand that, having had your say on the issue, you now want the topic closed to further discussion? A rather dogmatic approach!

And to stay on topic, the MAF should not provide publicly available commercial services in circumstances where there is a commercial equivalent available. This is the principle adhered to by many other religiously subsidised aviation organisations in developing countries. I would further strongly suggest that application of this basic principle would rule out almost all missionary aviation activities, of a non-religious nature, in Australia.



Snooze

[Woomera]

Keg and others,
My edit of The Other Half's post was to do with some unsavoury (and what I think was unnecessary) personal remarks aimed at another contributor.

The majority of the post remains as originally written.

I will leave this run a little longer.

Woomera (Eastern States), a moderate Moderator:E

[112.3]

I am not narrow minded or insensitive to others. I have mates who fly for Qantas and Dj and I was not having a go at you.
if you do fly for an airline. good onya I reckon.
lets close this thread Woomera please.(keep up the good moderating)
it is going nowhere.

or am I being narrow minded about it.
:E

[Keg]

Oops, sorry Woomera. Just saw the sig at the bottom and thought it was ALL your work! :uhoh:

Thinking pilot, it's not arrogance although if you think it is then it's equally arrogant of you to assert from your perspective someone could NOT know about the after life! In other words, you can't attach that label to Christians without accepting it yourself. (As an aside, I did a Myers-Briggs psych eval a bunch of years ago and when the bloke told me that some people may find me arrogant, I responded with 'I'm not arrogant, I just know when I'm right! I've happily worn that label for a long time and it also means I know when I'm not right too!)

The difference between you and I in this case is that I've done some research on it. I've read the Book. I've even read the Quran, bits and pieces of the teachings of Buddha and a few of the others. I've also researched the historical accuracy of the Bible a fair bit too (particularly the New Testament) and am pretty comfortable with it's basis. I don't know whether you've researched them or not but if you haven't I'd encourage you to put the NT to the test. I can even suggest some books (not the Bible) which may assist! :D :}

[PLovett]

Sheepguts

Quick explanation on the difference between a "not for profit" and a "non-profit" organisation.

A "not for profit" organisation, like MAF and like many aero clubs throughout Australia, are companies that are "limited by guarantee". They can make a profit but all profits must be invested in the organisation and not distributed as a dividend to shareholders or to individuals.

A "non-profit" organisation is just that. An organisation that by its legal structure is not allowed to make a profit.

My experience of MAF was limited to a couple of months at Gove and a friend has just finished two years working with them at Elcho Island. I suspect that they are not paid in accordance with the award but that their package of benefits may well be equivalent to the award.

The only advantage that MAF may have over other operators is that they can call on pledges and donations and that they do not have an owner or shareholders who are looking for a return on investment.

[grrowler]

With risk of going further off the real topic and discussing the forbidden...
Keg,
I responded with 'I'm not arrogant, I just know when I'm right! I've happily worn that label for a long time and it also means I know when I'm not right too!

How on earth can you assert your spiritual, non tangible and dare I say it sometimes non-factual (yes I've done some research as well, I came to different conclusion, before your arrogance leads you to believe otherwise) beliefs on others, and not be narrow-minded? In your earlier post, points 1,2,3,4,5 & 6 all assert your beliefs as fact, and that smacks of arrogance.

You assume Thinking Pilot hasn't researched this. How do you know you're right in this instance? Arrogance?

Please... I can accept you being right about "worldly" stuff if you present the facts, but lets leave the preachy stuff at home...

The fact is MAF provide equivalent services to other companies, and therefore there is no specific need for them.

SG, nice topic to stir things up
:E

[...still single]

MAF is (supposed to be) more than just an air service. In North Australia it would seem that there is air service a-plenty. If MAF is providing a missionary function, then yes, there is a reason for them to be there.
In PNG, there is no other operator who provides a country-wide service to remote villages. There are a few small operators who do similar work in their own local areas, in clapped-out 206's and Islanders, but a lot of places have no alternative to MAF.

Absolutely, there is a need for MAF.

[Sheep Guts]

MAFs missionary status and goals to help people in need in unchartered lands still holds true. I especailly have seen it first hand. It is needed! Even in Arhnemland, every contribution to a better life for traditional peoples is gleefully accepted.

But as Capt Snooze and others have said. Should they be charging for there services?I suppose really every Charter fee is looked upon as a pledge, and rightly so. As long as that "pledge price" is comparable to industry standards ( as it generally is), the MAF can continue with there mission.

So really are we talking about MAF and Commercial Operators, or is it Captitolism and Socialism clashing again under different genres?

I say to all struggling Operators out there ie. FOR PROFIT "when they can". Why not invent your own Charity and or Service, but first off identify a need. Then you could offset those Provisional Taxes somewhat and get that spare engine. Maybe someone could sponsor erradication of of the Cane Toad or something similair as a Tax Break. Hey maybe people are allready doing it?


Food for thought
Sheep

[thinking pilot]

Hey Keg there is a difference between faith and fact.

You believe something that cannot be proved.

I,m no worse off because I don't believe what you believe.

Don't feel sorry for me.

Don't assume you know anything about me Golden Child.

Bye the way I've worked with a few MAF guys in Gove and some are good and some are bad.

[drshmoo]

Quotes from kegs sermon


Therefore, if we prove that Jesus DID live, die and rise again, we've instantly proved all the other religions as false and therefore the issue DOES become that black and white. The darkness that Matthew quotes as descending on the earth when Jesus died is reported in independant texts on the other side of the Mediterraenean.
Dear Keg I dare say that an independant weather report of darkness from some poor sod in a fishing boat on the other side of the Mediterraenean over two thousand years ago hardly is enough to even fathom that christianity is right and its begginings are factual events. I'm catholic but I do not dare to have the shortsightedness that my religion is the right brand of religion. That sort of rubbish about "Gods chosen people" from any religious point of view is whats wrong with this world (see Gaza Strip).

Save your preaching for flying matters.

What other Duties apart from flying do the MAF boyz and girls contribute in these remote areas?

[Pinky the pilot]

From what I last heard of the state of GA in PNG given the economic situation of that sad and sorry place, is that it if it was'nt for the 'Missionaries Air Force' or 'Mafiar' as they were referred to by some people, some of the villages would have absolutely no contact with the rest of the country.
In which case I say good on them. When I was doing the rounds of the bush strips with Simbu years ago I found that they were'nt taking any business away from us.
One thing about this thread 'though; The old adage about never discussing politics or religion in a public forum has certainly proved itself here.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Oktas8]

My (limited) understanding is that MAF do make a profit from some routes in Australia, which allow them to maintain the highly unprofitable, charitable, routes in PNG. Donations & pledges from Christians also support PNG routes.

So in that sense, the charter fee in Australia is a donation to aid work in PNG. Since MAF Australia is responsible for the work in both countries the books balance that way.

My understanding could be out of date though.

O8

[Woomera]

Enough!! :*

Two Woomera have previously cautioned and been ignored by certain users.

This Woomera is applying the lock!

Woomera