Is Impulse the new 'low-cost' carrier?

[Mr Seatback 2]

I realise we've had at least two topics discussing this and something similar relating to QF's plans for a low cost carrier, but both of those topics were soon diverted to the land of hysteria.

Onto the original topic...

What do you guys REALLY think of this low cost carrier biz? Do you think it will succeed? Or will we end up with a Go Airways situation, that ended up stealing from it's parent?

What aircraft do you think would do it? the 717 or the A321, as has been mentioned previously? Advantages/Disadvantages?? Could it go the way of JetBlue, or like Impulse in it's original incarnation?

Would Impulse do it - after all, their Cabin Crew are cheaper than Virgin Blue now...I don't know about the Tech Crew, but surely there's not that much difference in cost between them (blank look) - maybe???

I welcome all useful contributions to this topic. If people are going to denigrate this into a bitchslapping session and make this 'handbags at 5 paces', may I suggest you go somewhere else...I would appreciate some HALF DECENT, MATURE discussion on this matter.

Boring? Maybe - but as someone with a vested interest, I can do without the impersonations of grown people as 2 year olds that I see on here occasionally.

This is NOT an Early Learning Centre!

[Wirraway]

Mr Seatback 2

Not having a crystal ball it could happen in a variety of ways.

My guess is that if this LCC happens, it will be a seperate deal
alltogether, I could imagine QF and their "CityFlyer" remaining
as is, and I could imagine that Impulse will remain as is, as well
as AO.

This LCC (Skimpy) would be the current 737s taken out of QF domestic,
and used anywhere including off-peak "CityFlyer" routes, as
Geoff Dixon said between 15-40 aircraft, having heaps of 737ng
options still left at Boeing I can't even imagine them getting
Airbus 320s but who really knows except the man himself.

Wirraway

[Servo]

Mr Seatback,

Not wanting to turn it into a bitch slapping exercise but the only "low cost" is crew wages.(Ok I admit using clapped out old 737's will be cheaper)

All things considered, using "new" equipment whether it be A321's, 737NG's etc; aircraft leasing, fuel, landing fees etc would be almost identical on both sides of the Tasman. The only difference is that the NZ crews will getting paid less.
The downward spiral continues..........................

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Well said Mr Seat Back. Hand bags at 5 paces seems to be the way of prune at the moment. I get the feeling that alot of guys think that the low cost carrier would be a fairly risky option for qf to pursue. If I ran Virgin I would wait for Qantas to pull all of the buisness class seats out of the air. Then I would put a buisness class in the VB 737s to lure the buisness traveler back.

I get the feeling that a lowering of costs/ service is not what the travelling public want. They need to be able to provide a good service for moneys paid.

I reckon that a another low cost carrier will dilute the market to a non workable point. How can an airline justify having portions of itself domestically working against each other?

[Pete Conrad]

I see it being jetconnect for the reasons discussed before. I see more 767's being configured in one class for peak times and I see 737-800's being used as supplementary. Eventually I feel QF will have to minimise the number of aircraft variations in the fleet, especially if the ACCC deal does not go ahead with AirNZ hence they'll go 737 all the way and Impulse will lose out. This is not a wind up, and I stress that for the likes of thumpa and ditzyboy. Thats just my tboughts from what's been indicated in the past.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Pete, I see where you are coming from. However, Impulse operates regional services for qantas link not mainline. If you look into the domestic profit schedule for qantaslink in the last financial year you will find that QF are doing very well out of the 717s, profit wise.

I dont think Impulse was ever designed to take over mainline routes. The tanks arent big enough. In tough times I would be surprised to see Impulse in any sort of trouble. Considering the good profit results last year.

[Pete Conrad]

Thats interesting Douglas McDonnel, I heard that the combined Qantaslink profit schedule was good, but as the yeild was really low within Impulse, the figures for Impulse were not that good. The same situation as for AN with the CRJ's. The CRJ's were always full, but the yeild was low either because it was full of holiday makers or frequent flyers.
I have no doubt that impulse was and are a good low cost exercise for QF, but I guess in these changing times, it has to be seen whether QF will go the distance with them.

Theres other external factors as well, and I'm happy that we are engaging in sensible chat over it. I heard on the FSF network in the USA last week that Boeing were desperate to sell the 717 as part of an aircraft mega order for AirCanada and a few other STAR carriers, see below,I managed to have the email still, heres part of the article,

Bombardier Inc. will show Air Canada its 700 and 900 series regional jets.
Airbus will fly in an A318.

Embraer will present its 170, although Arthur said Air Canada is also
considering the Brazilian planemaker's 190, which still is being developed.

In a potential sign of just how badly it wants and needs the Air Canada
order in the weak aircraft market, Boeing, which has already brought its 717
to Dorval for viewing, will bring the plane back again.

Analysts expect that the fight between manufacturers for the contract will
be fierce, with planemakers weighing what's better: a sale at a steeply
discounted price or no sale at all.

Montreal-based Air Canada and its Star Alliance partners, Lufthansa, SAS and
Austrian Airlines, are teaming up to make a joint purchase of up to 200
planes that could be worth

$9 billion U.S.

So, whether the 717 remains as a long term option in the QF fleet remains the big question.Like I said, this aint a wind up.

Regards,Pete

[The Spin Doctor]

So 4 choices
-Impulse
-Jetconnect
-Completely new operation
-No low cost airline at all


Well at least all will be revealed by Xmas, I wonder how proposed Qantas/Air NZ deal will effect the decision.

Good to see a CONSTRUCTIVE topic at last, how long will it last????

[T53C]

My 2 cents worth:

Most low cost carriers GENERALLY only operate a single fleet type.

I think its well known that a 717 can't operate SYD-PER or BNE-DWN. It's also well known that Boeing is trying to woo the Kangaroo into the 737-900X, and be the launch customer. They have approached Bombardier and ATR for RFP's on the regional replacements.

No insults intended at ANYONE but Qantas has quite a few aircraft types in the fleet as it is, and my humble opinion is that we will see a change with that.

I think it will be a 737 type operation. Going Airbus (A320/21) is a little late in the game plan to change horses..spares, engineering, training. As mentioned the options with Boeing are still plentiful.

A lot has happened in Aus aviation over the last 24 months, so I wont be suprised if ole mate Geoff makes some decisions that some may not like.
:ugh:

[Mr Seatback 2]

I love your work guys - very mature and useful contributions!

Pete C - QF are getting rid of OGV to Australian as I understand, because they don't want an all Y 76 on their runs (presumeably for reasons of low yields or the excuse that was used for the A330 - it takes too long to turnaround).

I wouldn't be surprised that the yields on the 717's aren't the best (just look at where they fly!) - Hamilton Island, Maroochydore, Gold Coast (again!)...not exactly Business Travellers' delight!

However, having said that, has anyone seen the schedule for end of October? SYD-CNS, BNE-TSV, SYD-OOL (5 times a day)...where are we going with this? These have been traditionally Short Haul routes - or are we trying to build up traffic in the busy lead up to Xmas and School Holidays?

BNE-TSV I can appreciate, as traffic between Alliance and VB would probably hot up, and it would be far cheaper to send Impulse up as opposed to a 2 class 734 with Short Haul crew. I presume this is the case at least!?

I can't see any reason for the LCC to not be based out of oz - it would be a bit of a logistical nightmare to base the crews ex NZ as is happening with Pacific Blue? I know that the FA EBA doesn't provide for much of a markup from the last one (well, not excessively so)...so I fail to see how you could lower costs any further on the staff front (except in cases where you use contracted labour on the ground, engineering, etc???) - maybe this is the plan?

It would be an expensive exercise to do it from scratch I would assume - I strongly envisage Impulse being the vehicle for this new venture if it does go ahead...

Is the range of a 733 vastly different from a 717? Can a 733 do SYD-PER in one go? I didn't think there was a difference...I admit I'm not always correct when it comes to specifics regarding aircraft design...

Any more ideas guys? I like the speculation!!

[Pete Conrad]

I was under the impression that an MOU had already been signed by QF mainline pilots saying they would be crewing a new LCC. Then again, that flies in the face of what you hear regarding Jetconnect coming in as the LCC with lower wages.

It's all specualtion, thats the problem, but at the end of the day, to cut costs, QF go with as few aircraft types as possible. The most dominant in the fleet is the 737 series.

Consolidation was the word within the QF regionals not that long ago, with the word even being from within Impulse that no more 717's were coming.

All QF are doing with Impulse is exactly what AN did with the KD CRJ's, deploy them on low yeild routes and accept the low financial result that comes with it because it's all absorbed in the group anyway.Thats all well and good, but theres going to come a time where you will have numerous low cost arms operating against one another within the group. The one who's most dominant will win out. That being 737.

It's horses for courses, but the 717 is not the knight in shining armour thats going to revolutionise LCC operators in Australia. It will most likely be operated by QF mainline or Jetconnect using the one type thats already the most prevalent.

The 737-300 can do Melbourne - Perth, the 400 can and does already do Sydney - Perth.

[rescue 1]

Whoever ends up operating this new carrier will need NEW jets. Old B733's tend not to be reliable and are becoming increasingly expensive to operate.

Although the lease costs are higher for new equipment, you get reliability and increased fuel savings. On time performance is everything.

[thumpa]

Pete Conrad

You absolutely crack me up. You certainly made me laugh after a long day. Your onesided deranged view of the aviation world is entertaining to read.

Keep it up:ok:

[Pete Conrad]

Thumpa, how bout you take your little attitude elsewhere.In this thread I have said what I said in a factual way based on whats already been said before. I'm not the one stirring the pot here now mate, so lose the attitude and go to a forum where your snide little posts can have an effect. The original poster asked for opinions, which have been given, now you have hijacked the thread with an inflamatory post.

If you have an opinion based on what you know, please share it, I promise I won't make a mockery of your post.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Tell your story walking thumpa.

AS an interesting asside. I noticed that yesterday the ACCC blocked the well known proposed agreement with ANZ and QF. How would this effect Jet connect going domestic in australia? Only a hypothisis and not a rumour.

Can the ACCC have their cake and eat it too?

[balance]

Have it on very good authority today from a source high up in AIPA that the company is in agreement that the carrier (if it happens) will be crewed by QF Mainline pilots in much the same fashion as the Australian operation.

Sorry to all you wannabes out there.... But it may well open up further recruiting in QF mainline???

[thumpa]

Maybe we should rename the title

The world according to Pete Conrad

I have no doubt Qantas mailine would operate the 737's but at Virgin rates

[dirtylittlefokker]

There is another low cost and profitable "LCC" in Australia which everyone seems to ignore!:cool:

[Mr Seatback 2]

Too true dlf - sometimes big things come from very small packages?!

I forgot about the kids up north - are they profitable? I heard otherwise (but refuellers tell you all sorts of things)...

Everyone seems to think 733's...would make perfect sense...but in the broader sense, where does that leave the 717's? With 733's operating on a lower cost base (fully paid ones at that), why keep the 717's?

[ur2]

Just heard from a reliable source that the LCC will be 35 A321's all external recruitment.
Only way to effectively reduce existing conditions and employ under entirely new contract conditions.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

What ever the outcome, lets hope no one ends up unemployed. Hungry mouths dont care who you work for as long as they get fed.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Isn't there the risk that this new low cost venture will only end up poaching pax (albeit low yield) from it's parent carrier, just like Go did to BA?

We've gone from 4 carriers to 3 carriers to finally 2 - just where is the room for a 3rd carrier in Oz? Yes it would be a LCC, but funding 35 A321's is a big ask in what is comparitively (compared with the likes of the UK and US) a much smaller market...

[ur2]

In addition to eating into VB's market share, poaching pax from QF is exactly what they want to do, as they would make more money putting them on the low cost wing than the high cost side of thing.
They then can expand the low cost operation and reduce the higher cost side. makes perfect sense.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Not quite relevant, but close...

Aren't Airbuses meant to be real lemons? Ansett's A320's were FOREVER going U/S (compared to the older 733's) - I worked there, and I saw it happen everyday!

Also, QF I believe are having reliability issues with the A330. Same at GB Airways in the UK - reliability a big problem there as well for their new A320's/A321's.

Views/experience anyone? Just a casual observer's observation...

[puff]

Not sure where you worked mr seatback but in the end the A320s were the real money makers at Ansett. Why would have Mk 2 only been operating them when they had a whole fleet of 737s as well, the airbus's at AN did have a lot of teething troubles in the beginning, but remember they were the launch customer, but at the end they were the most reliable in the fleet.

[thumpa]

To all u management wannabes and especially Sir Pete Conrad

You dont just create a market which is not there. The market is saturated and served well. There will not be 20 extra 737's or A320's ordered. There will be an initial say 10 a/c transferred from mainline. They will snare FO's from long haul and FO's from 737 mainline. Lower conditions. It will then be axpanded at the expense of mainline over time.


ONe thing is f6r sure. THey will not have to fly with biggles himself.

Sir Pete Conrad.

He'll be at the fence taking photo's from his brand new ladder.
:ok:

[Mr Seatback 2]

True - the 737 economics aren't as good as the A320...but still...

My observations are probably unintentionally skewed anyway...let's not go anywhere near the 767's anyone (romeo-mike-donkey???)

As someone who saw the disruptions caused by A320's going U/S almost everyday, I probably missed the amount of times the rest of the fleet went cactus!

Thumpa - that's what I thought (re: market saturation)...any other ideas kids?

[halas]

AN's 320 the most reliable aircraft?

Compared to thirty year old or badly maintained 767's, clapped out 737's, odd ball 146's and a pair of SQ's retarded 747's, yes l guess they were very reliable.

AN were one of many launch customers for the 320, so not the only ones to suffer problems with the type.

The Airbus types in this neck of the woods seem to always be having problems. Maybe it's the environment, maybe it's the quality.

halas

[longjohn]

Thumpa said "To all u management wannabes and especially Sir Pete Conrad

You dont just create a market which is not there. The market is saturated and served well. There will not be 20 extra 737's or A320's ordered. There will be an initial say 10 a/c transferred from mainline. They will snare FO's from long haul and FO's from 737 mainline. Lower conditions. It will then be axpanded at the expense of mainline over time."


How do you know the market is not there?

4 years ago we all thought the market would reject the notion of a no frills service, today it is not only acceptable to the 'thongs and serongs' crowd, but also to a growing number of buisness travellers.

Events would seem to have proved your statement incorrect, in fact it seems the lower the airfares, the greater the demand. The only question seems to be how cheap they can sustainably go.

There is no guarantee whatsoever that QF mainline pilots will crew the new LCC. If they do, then assuming Virgin style pay rates apply, Qantas will need to re-think it's recruitment path towards direct entry F/O's. Very few second officers will be interested in pay reductions to a right hand seat.

If we also assume that the LCC replaces the Impulse services, then what do Qantas do with 100 or so qualified jet pilots in Impulse? Yes, I hear the call, 'make them S/O's, after all they are mere regional pilots.'

Somehow I don't think this would work, rather, I can see at best for QF pilots a hybrid airline where both groups can enter the new carrier (QF pilots on secondment). This may at least provide for stability of jobs for the ever diminishing mainline carrier.

At worst, (for QF pilots) I see the new carrier being a completely seperate entity most likely crewed by the VQ guys.

AIPA and the QF pilot group as a whole should see this as an important opportunity to grab the bull by the horns here and get in on the ground floor. At the end of the day, we sat around in Ansett and watched guys with 0 jet time move into the left hand seat in a matter of years whilst we languished in the same seat on the same type. The wages may have been less, but in retrospect I think it would have been better if we had been there from the beginning(assuming the opportunity was there).

[Pimp Daddy]

If we also assume that the LCC replaces the Impulse services, then what do Qantas do with 100 or so qualified jet pilots in Impulse? Yes, I hear the call, 'make them S/O's, after all they are mere regional pilots.'


What do Qantas do? Make 'em all redundant, guarantee it.

As for "they're regional pilots, make em SOs" - fat chance - Qantas have already shown thier hand there. What did they do with the Ex- Southern "qualified jet pilots"? Gave them all interviews and took one - sorry, all the rest no makey grade. Go fly Dashy or go to Centerlink.

[Towlie]

I guess it’s better to fly a Dash than to be un-employed.

Impulse had a chance to go QF union way back when the merger first happened; a few of the senior 1900 guys were trying to convince everyone that the way to go was to maintain an internal Impulse Pilot Committee. They’re S/O’s with QF now so I guess their hard stance views don’t count so much no more. Solid advice guys.

Yes the IPC are a top bunch of guys doing there best, no hard feeling on their be-half, problem is though, they don’t have the power nor the pull to push as hard as what the QF pilot union have. It’s just a fact of life.

The Southern guys got the short straw as well, but at least the guys kept their jobs as opposed to 30 or so 1900 pilots getting the shaft from the QF seniors.

Baggage handlers on strike with QF makes the news, 30 or so sacked pilots through a merger? Not one mention!

Couple of guys turn up in suits , telling you how tough and how hard it is on their behalf , almost trying to convince you that you should feel sorry for them because they have to give you the sack. Nice work guys.

Catch 22 : most companies have heard that “IF” Impulse / Qantaslink buy more jets , the redundant guys will be offered positions first. That’s a nice security blanket, BUT understandably so , other companies don’t want to waste their time and money training up a new guy if the chances are they might get a jet call up in the not to distant future.

So again the redundant guys haven’t got a leg to stand on. Nor a job in the profession they’re trained in.

Qantas Press Release 20th November 2001 : Sydney

“The Impulse fleet of eight Boeing 717 jets and 13 Beechcraft 1900D aircraft would continue to fly QantasLink services. All pilots, flight attendants, engineers and ground staff would remain employed by Impulse Airlines as a subsidiary of Qantas.”

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/au/publicaffairs/details?ArticleID=2001/nov01/2554Q

60 Minute’s? Mike Munro? Anyone want to stir the pot on this one?

I guess most people are sick to death of this recurring topic, but this sour grape is a little hard for some to chew.

Bottoms up lads , lets hope “A Company” any company will start up soon and put more drivers on.


:\

[Cactus Jack]

Ironic really. I know of several guys flying for Impulse (read airconex or whatever...) who have been turned down for employment by QF.

Why do you think they were at Impulse in the first place?

And now here they are effectively flying QF Jets????

I doubt any of them would be taken in by mainline without a the usual recruitment process....

[thumpa]

What you children must realise Qantas already has a low cost operator. Impulse. A a 117 seat caters for a different size market than a 160 seat a/c. Like NJS are. Qantas did lease 6 a/c just over a year ago with 100's of millions of dollars invested. Any person with some sort of Business knowledge would know they are not about to write it off overnight just to get rid of a low cost operator already there.

Think about it

[EPIRB]

Thumpa, the problem is that the 717's can't carry the loads over longer routes.

[thumpa]

epirb

Impulse will not be the low cost airline. They already are. They will continue to operate as Qantaslink to smallish centres out of capital cities, just like NJS have done for 10 years. The range on the 717 is pretty much sufficient to all routes except Perth to the East Coast etc. Qantas would not want pax to fly anymore than 3 hours with out entertainment .

:ok:

Its gone very quiet. Where are you Pete you big winner:ok:

[Mr Seatback 2]

Might they not get additional 717's to the fleet, but painted and configured in a different manner (ie. say, a domestic version of 'Australian'?)

Nil additional training, etc. required for any of the crews, with commonality with the rest of the fleet.

Plus - the LCC could fly (as I understand) SYD-ADL-PER (well, it's being mooted for SYD-CNS, so presumeably 3hr flts aren't a problem!?)

hmmmmmm

I've heard the rumour that we'll be operating in Australian colours more than once now...even though Australian still provide 'frills' level of service in an all Y configuration, maybe they're considering a 'no frills' version for the domestic arm?

Just a thought!

[Pete Conrad]

Sorry thumpa, been away on a four day trip. I actually have a life and don't feel the need to check pprune every day to stroke what little ego you have. this thread was an interesting thread with mature discussion until you got on it.

Keep dreaming, or as Douglas Mcdonnell said - tell your story walking thumpa.

I heard today within QF that the leases on the 717's have been reduced to 5 years now.

Douglas McDonnell you seem to have more maturity than thumpa, is that the case?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

It is a shame to see what started as a usefull thread being hijacked by the usual twisted D1ck He@#s.

Pete as far as I know the 717s are on lease to around 2008/9. The leases were recently renegotiated. Under what exact terms I am not sure.

C U soon DM

[Pete Conrad]

Thanks DM, Is Terry Doyle still with you guys? he's a good man.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Terry is with us - we love Tez...:D

[Chocks Away]

Impulse... new low cost carrier?
Nuh, doesn't look like it:

Qantas to simplify fares, adopt single class on Tasman
Dateline: Wednesday September 17, 2003

Qantas said it will move to a single-class cabin product and introduce a "simpler, more flexible fare structure" on its transtasman flights beginning next month.

"In a highly competitive environment, and particularly on short-haul trips between Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch, there is not sufficient demand for business class," Executive GM-Sales and Marketing John Borghetti explained.
The carrier, which operates 111 weekly services between Australia and New Zealand, will reconfigure the 737-300s used on its transtasman routes in a move that will result in a 9% increase in capacity. The all-economy flights will launch Oct. 15.
On that same day, Qantas's new fare package will go into effect. It includes one-way fares that can be mixed and matched as well as the removal of minimum stays including Saturday-night restrictions, advance purchase conditions and seasonal surcharges. One-way fares will be priced from A$243 ($162), comprising a base fare of A$179 and A$64 in taxes. The Sydney-Auckland return fare will start at A$451, down from A$675 currently.--Loren Farrar

[GalleyHag]

The thing i dont understand is if Impulse is the new LCC why did QF put a team of managers together and spend all this money to tell them that?

Also I watched the Business Sunday program shortly after the LCC idea was put out there by QF and Dixon said Impulse was not the model they were after. And if the LCC gets off the ground and its not Impulse wont it be competing head to head not only with shorthaul but Impulse on the leisure routes?

[ExcessData]

Judging by the various media releases on the subject to date, expect the LCC to be a greenfields operation built from the ground up with minimal involvement from Qantas HQ. The operating philosophy would aim to have the carrier come into the market 'underneath' DJ, and gain DJ (or low yield mainline) market share from below, and turn it inter higher yield, higher volume market. All routes currently operated by DJ would be fair game - anywhere there's a discount Y-class market lurking, you could expect to see the LCC deployed.

DJ to date have been keen proponents of low fares and 'opening up' Australian air travel. I'd assume they'll have no problems with this venture, then, assuming it proceeds.

ED

[Le Pilot]

The IPC (Impulse Pilots council) was formed due to the fact that the president of AIPA Capt CM (Now CP QF) advised the Impulse Pilots that they were not allowed to join AIPA. He intended to bring the IPC to the AIPA family at a later date.
The Pilots could have joined the AFAP but this move proved unpopular amongst certain senior members.
Most of the 717s available in the states are fitted with the center tank.
Considering any further purchases of the higher engine rating/ higher gross weight variant, this should give QF the aircraft required at least to replace the 146.

[Watchdog]

You only have to look at the 717 route structure to see that it has been replacing the 146 in TAS & SE QLD.

The 146 fleet was about 24 units, the 717 14 units. So, mix with 737, schedule changes and ... "volia"... the 146 is replaced.

IMHO I think that always was the plan right from the start, and a LCC is a completely separate deal.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Well there is the fact that they still have the Southern AOC - and here was me thinking Impulse ALONE was going to be the vehicle...

But SURELY...layman's logic here...it would be easier to create a shelf company for the LCC under the Impulse AOC and have Impulse management (with a couple of ring-ins from QF running the LCC as required) administer support functions such as payroll, accounting, HR, etc...rather than create the whole thing from scratch and cost you more money in initial costs?

Any additional staff you hire would be related strictly to the operation of the new aircraft type (eg. Flight operations, etc)...even the Impulse FA's could be double endorsed on a/c types (which again, would reduce time required for training as the endorsement would take approximately 2 days versus 4 weeks, as well as total start up time)...imagine the flexibility of having 300 FA's ready before start up at a fraction of the cost...

But I'm not thinking about tech crew in this realm - not my area!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

It sounds too easy Mr Seatback. Le piolt all the 717s have a center tank. Total about 12 tonnes across all tanks.

Galley Hag, I think you will find that GD made refference to Impulse as the current low cost alternative. He did not state that it was not the model that they were after. As you stated.

Cheers DM