G'day mates.

[Oz Ocker]

I seen this website on a coupla o'casions and I reckon it s about time I said what buncha wallys some of ya like ta make outcha are.
Now I gotta lotta respect for truckers, and bussies, an I even know a bit about flyin' meself - me mates a pilot an e's taken me up a coupla times on the weekends.
Ain't all that hard cos e's flown wivvout an instructor pilot next to him after e's been flyin for only 10 hours. An' me, I had a go meself - funny 'ow your work that accelerator with ya hands by pushin' an pullin' - sorta like a cross between a car accelarator an a motabike handle ain't it!

Anyaways, I got ta thinkin', why the fark do youse need all this trainin"?
Like a semi driver can learn to do his sh/t in about 10 hours, an' a bus driver can do it in abouts the same time. What makes youse think that ya need that much extra time.
I rekon me cabbie mate - given 20 or 30 hours - could be an airline pilot if 'e really wanted to be.
(I could too ya know, 'caus I gave it a burl, an' it ain't all that hard).

What's ta stop some people who want ta fly big jets from jus' doin' a training course?
Seems like it's a simple job. Specially if ya know what buttons to push.
An yer getting paid ****eloads to do it.

[BIK_116.80]

Yep - all true! :ok:

Aint it grand? ;)

[Continental-520]

Ocker,

Sir, what you seem not to realise, is that we are paid not for what we do, but more for what we know, and how we can apply our knowledge to whatever situation we may find ourselves in.

Same as a trucky, he/she has knowledge about his/her machine which is pertinant to any situation they may find themselves in.

If you should ever venture into looking at the training we undertake, you'll find that we're all in fact aviators, doctors, lawyers, meteorologists, physicists and mathematicians all rolled into one.

Does that talk us up enough?


520.

[Jerricho]

Seems like it's a simple job. Specially if ya know what buttons to push.

Sure is dude! Keep pressin' them buttons!

[SOPS]

:O No this is an EX PM waffling on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Oz Ocker]

Give us a bl00dy break, mate - for what we know!
Ya tryin' to make out that ya some kinda wise prophet or somethin', ace?
Exactley what do ya know, that ya couldn't learn to anyone in say 2 or 3 months?

Mate, it's a piss-easy job I reckon, clean air, warm in winter, an' nice n' cool in summer, an' ya don't have to get ya hands dirty like most of the run a the mill workers.
Ya get ya shirts supplied free an' a few little other perks - like cheap travel an' cushy hotels.

Hey, c'mon guys, don't try an' bullsh!t yourselves, let alone me an' the others. The job just ain't what it used to be no more is it.
Mosta them so-called "skills" ya got are hardly ever used in today's airliner. How many of youse have had an engine konk out on ya fa real?
Bugga all I reckon.
An how hard do ya REALLY work, when yar at work - I mean like usin' them skills? Usually you've got "George" plugged in, and ya jus sit there bored sh!tless 'til the landing.

Hate ta say it fellas, but in my opinion all of youse could be replaced by people like meself in a pretty short time, if the companys and the govament decided to go hard at it.
After all, why do ya need to train fer a coupla hundred hours on little aeraplanes, learning sh!t ya ain't gunna ever use again when ya fly the big buggas!
Jus' grab a bloke, an' stick him straight aways onto the biggie an' teach him how to handle that.
Saves him a bundle, an' the employer can pay 'im what he's REALLY worth.
Wake up n' smell the coffee blokes, there's lotsa folks who'd jump into that seat yar in fer a lot, lot less than there payin' ya right now. An' I reackon that's the way the industry headed.

Same with the bl00dy shielas dishin' out the tea n' bikkies down the back - an' don't come that smae cr@p about "for what we know". How long's it take ya' to learn the "for what we know (but you don't...yet)? A week or two may be..

I reackon give it 5 years, an industry standard wages are gunna have most of youse pegged around the same level as cabbies, truckers and bussers.
Nuthin' spiteful, ju me own opinion!

See youse round.

[Thump & Go]

Just what we need! - An Aussie version of the Maori Mobster.

Time to get back to that colouring book OO:ok:

[Square Bear]

Even disregarding the subject matter, that would have to be the most unfunniest attempts at humour I have ever seen in my life.

Mate, I felt seriously embarrassed for you as I read those two posts.

[Blastoid]

Agreed, what a waste of a thread :ouch:

If you want to drum up a bit of debate try and be a bit more authentic.

[Chocks Away]

Oz,

...you're just an example of the saying that : "a little bit of knowledge is dangerous". :mad:

[pullock]

I just love to see the pilot ego in action.

Continental 520 do you really believe


If you should ever venture into looking at the training we undertake, you'll find that we're all in fact aviators, doctors, lawyers, meteorologists, physicists and mathematicians all rolled into one.

:yuk:

It's a pretty bold thing to compare yourself to all of these degreed professionals, what degree do you have??

A small understanding from many disciplines reminds me of an old addage.....jack of all trades..........


Quite often I get more than a tad impressed with the skill and dexterity of the pilots either side of me when they have pulled off a difficult landing that had me digging my fingernails in to the seat cushion, because I can't do it - but I could if I wanted to learn to do it. My admiration for this skill fades when it is tainted by pilots who think they are gods gift to the world, for you guys it's time for a reality check, take an objective look at what you do, it's just a job like any other only a lot more boring.

Go start your own business and earn millions of dollars by your own achievement, then you can hav an ego all of your own:ok:

[Oz Ocker]

I ain't tryin' ta be funny Bear, an by crikey by sheer co-incidence I just seen a simlar topic on the main inter-national forum page called "A bleak future fer aviation?" 'ere's the link fer youse
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=101322

Most of the blokes seem ta 'ave pretty much the same sorts of thoughts - well kinda the same, like the ones wot I put 'ere.
If ya're a young whipper snapper just gettin' inta flyin', i don't reckon I'd be committin' meself to deep fer to long based on ya current salry.

Ave a good 'ard look at the way yer industrys goin' mates (an shielas), and ask yerselfs where ya REACKON ya gunna be 5 or 10 years down the track.
The flyin' industry is about ta go thru' one of it's biggest transfermations - fact is, it's well inta it right now an I don't reackon a lot of youse even realise it, ya know that!

See youse round.

[tobzalp]

http://users.bigpond.net.au/plazbot/thanksfortheinfo.jpg

[Tagneah]

Jus' grab a bloke, an' stick him straight aways onto the biggie an' teach him how to handle that.

The QF Cadetship applications are open at the moment!

Maybe you should "ave a go ya mug"

Tag :ok:

PS Ive had 5 "donks" go on me not counting my 1980 Mitsi Colt

[Le Pilot]

Bob. Bob
Is..Is that you?
I missed you!

(come back next time and I promise I wont miss):E

[Dan Kelly]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions. :hmm: :rolleyes:

[Perpetual_Hold_File]

Continental-520- :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

What high and mighty position are you looking down from?

Everyone else here seems to recognise a wind up when they see one!

[Oz Ocker]

A bl00dy wind-up, no way mate!
I don't reackon some of youse could see a bl00dy semi-trailer comin' standin out on the Birdsville Track, 'til just before it hit ya!

Rice almighty theres new low cost airlines springin up all around you - just about poppin' outta ya ears, stickin' blokes in the pointy end of Jumbos, wiv no more than a cuppla hundred hours on bugsmashers, payin' 'em crappy wages, an a few of ya carn't see the bl00dy forest for the trees.

C'mon boys, get real - how hard IS it to fly? Guarenteed if ya took a young 18 or 20 year old off the street whose never flown ever before, and stuck 'im in one of them simbulaters for 4 hours a day for a month, you'd ave 'im flyin it as good as any of youse!
Am I right or am i wrong?

The technology of todays airoplanes allows it to be that way. Wether ya like it or not.
The new technology (I like that word!) has and is REPLACING your skills!
Sum of youse need a prod with a sharp stick to make ya see where the salery status of pilots is headed.

No way I'd be sending anya me kids into the flyin game if they was that way inclined today. No bl00dy way, mate.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Oz... give it up maaaaaaate!!

wind up

(and still people believe that someone with such an obviously concocted style of writing could be for real..):yuk:

[bush mechanics]

Eih you white blokes been real crazy!!You bin more crazy then my lubbra Daisy,She bin real nice lady,she bin cook me bush tucker all the time,Eih I been go see that government bloke tomorow and bin get that grant and im bin ply my own plane,Crikeys i bin get that one with them two motors,and dat red stripe soo he bin go real fast.My cousins all bin bush mochanics eigh we been lub that cont 520 bloke he bin real pucken stupid hey.go them desert mob,My cousin Nigel bin singing,All my life I bin kissing your left tit cause that right one missing o boy,crikey there bin two when i started

[OzExpat]

This Ocker sounds somewhat familiar... :E

[Continental-520]

Perpetual_Hold_File & pullock,

I've clearly taken the play along stance a little too seriously.

No, I don't genuinely believe that our profession covers for all of those that I listed, and frankly, it would be quite insultful to those hard working professionals of me to imply so. I was merely attempting to see if I provoke what is clearly a very disillusioned reader/poster.

On the other hand, I do dislike being sold short in such a way that is being tried here. No, we are not some superior form of life towards any other profession, whether it be a trucky, garbage collector, (some pilots double as these anyway) or rocket scientist, but we have our own individual trade, do we not?

520.

P.S. Tobzalp, 10 points mate. My ribs are still aching. :ok:

[pullock]

520 dude I just couldn't resist annotating your quote the way that it should be. Your post has had me smiling all day, I just could resist a second bite!!

For those who can't be bothered reading back, the comments in brackets are my annotatoions on 520's original post.

Here's the original - I am sure there are some that believe it to be true!!

If you should ever venture into looking at the training we undertake, you'll find that we're all in fact aviators, doctors, lawyers, meteorologists, physicists and mathematicians all rolled into one.




If you should ever venture into looking at the training we undertake, you'll find that we're all in fact aviators (who can't get a job anywhere else), doctors (have an idea of the principals of first aid), lawyers (learned the rules of aviation but still don't quite understand the separation of powers), meteorologists (capable of reading the weather off a fax), physicists (know the difference between up and down because that's what the command bars tell us, and what was that thing about vectors, I know it's got something to do with radar!!)and mathematicians (know that airline pilots earn more than ga pilots, that still doesn't add up to me!!) all rolled into one (ego).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


:yuk: again

[Continental-520]

Ha! Indeed. And after that one, no, I'm not above admitting to having an ego. But not nearly the size or magnitude you make it out to be...

it's just a job like any other only a lot more boring.

No, sorry mate. Can't agree with that one. I'm not doing this because I think it's "boring". I'm not saying that it's wrong to think it is boring, but if you do, and if you're that bright, maybe it's best that you're not a pilot (or are you?), and that you're doing something presumably a lot more thrilling, not that I can imagine what that could be.

520.

[mjbow2]

Wind up indeed!

Ocker you arent too far off the pace with your observations....I think there is something your not telling us about yourself though...

However, for the insurance risk that I carry daily, I would love to get paid the same as a trucker!

MJB

[7x7]

We should all thank Oz Ocker for so very effectively bringing to more people's attention the same point that Wiley tried to make in the thread that Oz Ocker told people to look at (or was it the thread that THAT thread told people to look at?). See here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99750)

It's getting distressingly close to the day when some 'bright' bean counter will see the 'savings' that are to be made in puting some completely untrained button pusher into the seat of an airliner with permission (and the ability) to do nothing more than button push, ie, program the computers and possibly taxi the beast.

God help us all if/when that day arrives, because we'll all have lost our jobs (or the job will no longer be worth having) before the bodies start piling up sufficiently high to prove what a stupid move it was.

[BIK_116.80]

It's getting distressingly close to the day when some 'bright' bean counter will see the 'savings' that are to be made in puting some completely untrained button pusher into the seat of an airliner with permission (and the ability) to do nothing more than button push, ie, program the computers and possibly taxi the beast.

God help us all if/when that day arrives, because we'll all have lost our jobs (or the job will no longer be worth having)....

That day arrived long ago.

Let's be honest - improvements in aircraft design and technology and in airline operating procedures mean that airline aircraft are now safer than ever, and the job of airline pilot has been progressively and significantly de-skilled over the last few decades.

[blat]

you'll find that we're all in fact aviators, doctors, lawyers, meteorologists, physicists and mathematicians R.eally sounds like he's talking about Winstun.

E.xactly how Winstun used to describe himself.

T.oo bad this Ocker bloke is so un-funny. We need a few laughs...

A.lways a pathetic sight when someone tries and fails so visibly like this.

R.ambling on to get an 'R' in there...

D.isappointing start there, ozocker.

[cunninglinguist]

Oz, as I tell anyone who reckons I've got an easy job for big money.............." if it's that easy, why don't you do it ? ":confused:

[Oz Ocker]

Ah cunny, you speak with forked tongue, matey....and maybe I COULD jus do yer job with only a bit of trainin`

Read between the friggin` lines. The way things are goin`, how longs it gunna be before the complete basic CPL syllabus is seen as a bl00dy overkill. Kinda like makin` a truckie or a bus driver learn to ride a pushbike, then a moter scooter, then a car before e can drive the big rigs.

That`s the way shes goin` blokes.
Step back an take a look will youse.

Gerday to me ol` mate, OzExpat! :ok:

See youse round.

[the wizard of auz]

Nah ozex, Not me mate.:E

[pithblot]

Cont 520

quite insultful ??

[OzExpat]

Of course not wiz... I know yer an absolute pillar of the community! :} I figure it's yer cousin, three times removed, who's headin for his fourth one! :p

[Oz Ocker]

Seems to me like lotsa ya wanna have these little male dominated ego fites between yaselves. Like..is it REALLY al that hard to stay focused on the central issue, without wantin' to box the next guys ears, just because he's the next guy?

I feels like I'm bashin' me 'ead against a brick, f@rkin' wall 'ere - an' I really wonder if youse are all wroth it!
Or if your jus' a buncha wallys, lookin' fr the next dumb lammpost to kick!!
But let's face it - most of youse are more intrested in who had somethin to say, that was superfishally deep, rater then tryin to take the overall view.
An' that's where a lot of us Aussies fall down - we try to play the loner act!

see youse round - like a rissole!

[Continental-520]

Pithblot,

Yeah mate, for sure. Can't take anything away from doctors, especially GPs. They are the the meaning of overtime, as far as I'm concerned. And before I get shot down again, no, I'm not one of them, and I don't have any in my family either. Just know a few of them.

Same with dentists. Work very hard for many years in the lab and fork out heaps of dosh for tools and other implements for years before it starts paying for itself.

Either way, I'd prefer to be flying any day in anything anywhere, justabout rather than looking through someone's rotting row of teeth.


520.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Ocker, how long does it normally take you to convert a normal post into trailer trash-ese?

You cannot expect us to believe you actually talk like that and can operate a computer. Stop with the BS affectation and maybe people will take you seriously.

[Oz Ocker]

Sorry Cobber, had a few tinnies before I writ that one and I carn't hardly believe it meself this mornin. But anyways its probly more than the skills pilots are gunna be needin' in the for see able future I reackon.
I'm rellly wonderin which way she's gunna go ya know. Are youse all gonna be wearin' blue singlets and thongs like that that other fella suggested, or are ya gonna become sort of "specialists" - you know, less of ya, but more money?

Almost looks ta me that a lot of the way things ave gone is due ta this "global village" bullsh!t. Used to be that only Anglo-Saxon decendents flew airaplanes, wearin their white shirts, gold epalets, and wings, and the peak cap worn at jus the right tilt, with the Ray Bans.
Today ya got all races polin' the big jets and competin' for any jobs that come up. Course we know that the non western world pilots fly for LOTS less than youse do - well usta!
Not now tho'. Your saleries ave gone down an theirs' as gone up.
Maybe its a lot to do with the super dooper technology(!) that the airoplane makers ave been able to in-corprate.

Course its made a helluva lot arder on the western airlines operatin International too asn't it. Non western countries can oprate on a much lower cost base structure because most of em pay their workers peanuts by our standards - the money most of youse get in one month is probly like a whole bl00dy years wages for them poor beggars!!
But the passengers sittin up in the big new Boeing or Hairbus dont know, or even think about that, their way to busy eatin their tucker and drinkin the free p!ss, payin for their accomadation with the bikkies they saved buyin it from this airline steada the big Q or BA.
Can ya imagine ow much the airline I was just talkin about is creamin tho. If the big Q can turn a profit and pay aller youse pilots, hosties, bag humpers, ticket punchers, clerks, and the like normal Ozzie saleries, then the other airlines who pay cr@p must be stackin it away!
Good ol Dicko n Jacko could pick up a real nice coupla cool mill in bonuses if they could get youse down to 3rd world wages.
Only a coupla things standin in their way tho at the moment - the govaments minamum wages for full-time workers, and them bl00dy unions - but their workin REAL hard to get rid o them.

But hey, stick ya heads in the sand and pretend it ain't appenin'.
But don't come whingin and whinin round ere in a coupla years time. The playin fields bein levelled a lot faster now than it has been in the past - kinda like a snowball rolling down a hill.
Dunno what youse kin do about it before it gets too late. Reackon its just about in-evatable now when ya look at the whole thing.

See youse round!

[Chocks Away]

I'm with you Cutest:

Ocker, how long does it normally take you to convert a normal post into trailer trash-ese? You cannot expect us to believe you actually talk like that and can operate a computer. Stop with the BS affectation and maybe people will take you seriously

You're a flogga, Oz!
The other threads on this topic are far more productive on this issue.
Say it properly or don't say it at all.

[BAE146]

If I was a betting man, I would think Kaptin M was having a lend of us under a new user name.;)

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101439&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

[Kaptin M]

Until now, I`ve stayed away from this one, however as your link to the other thread indicates, it seems more than a little coincidental that 3 threads are all heading pretty much in the same direction.

As for being an Ozzie ocker, my spell-checker wouldn`t let me past the first sentence. 146.
It COULD be Wiley, trying a new tack!! :cool:

[halas]

Struth Oz Ocker, you sure are one hell of an Owner-operator (w@nker).

halas

[Gnadenburg]

Ocker

Back in the days when truck drivers had to reverse park their semi-trailers the pay wasn't too bad. Bit of skill to the job.

You have obviously noted the deterioration of skill level in the airlining vocation too. Virgin and QF Domestic wallow around restricted to 250kts and "power on" descents the computer's fault.

Should have kept as much skill in the job as possible. Cadet programmes and little value on experience a catalyst in the erosion of conditions. Just an observation.

The market could strike back. 6% airline growth etc. Probably not in Oceana though-Virgin Blue, Jetconnect, Freedom and now more cheap, white professionals courtesy Pacific Blue.

QF pilots are very overpaid in terms of the Oceana market. Intersting to see how smart they become.

Ocka. What do you think of uniforms? Do you like the smart looking QF uniform or the boy from the bush look at VB?

[Wiley]

No Kap, I'm not 'Ocker', but unlike others who’ve pilloried him for his valuable, if unconventionally expressed insights, I have to agree with the tenor of what he’s saying. (Bseyedz, ave yuh eva tryd ta rite thatw ay? Itzdam neer imposs abull.)

How far away are we from the day when some entrepreneur convinces the regulatory authorities somewhere that it’s safer to employ a computer programmer whose total job description is to monitor the automatics in an airliner with no ‘dangerous human failings-prone’ manual override provided? From there, it’s a short step to a truly unmanned aircraft and we’ll have gone the way of harness salesmen and clipper ship master mariners. (In my other post today on the Bleak Future thread, I used the first moon landing as my example of what would be lost if manual override and maintained pilotage skills were taken away. Closer to home, consider the guaranteed result for all on board (and who knows how many on the ground?) in the Sioux City accident if the automatics were left to handle every imaginable situation. It’s the one in a lifetime unimaginable situations I want a properly trained pilot there to handle.)

The sad fact is, we cost our companies considerable money, and even worse, do so on an ongoing basis. We sometimes get sick, and we can’t be written down or flogged off easily to another, lesser company for a new model the way a computer program or a piece of hardware can, and we can’t run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week without a rest the way a piece of machinery can. But we can be asked to work longer and for less recompense under less favourable working conditions if there are others out there willing to replace us who will work under those conditions.

Decisions made by Australian pilot union leadership, (the worst case by far, in my opinion, being that of the QF pilots separating themselves from the lesser mortals – the domestic pilots and GA operators – back in the early eighties), has accelerated the rot towards the situation where all of us will have to swallow the bitter pill many have already tasted in the last few years. (It’s hard to avoid mentioning the part 1989 played in this steady – and sometimes not so steady – demise, but had all Australian airline pilots been in one unified union then, I believe events would never have reached the stage they did, if only because wiser and more experienced heads might have been available to man the most senior positions in the AFAP at the time.)

[mjbow2]

Oz ocker....
a few observations on the trend of my wages and the ease of my job...... no argument there....I dont need you to tell me what my pay check looks like! or how easy it is to do my job. I already know.

Let me ask you this though.....do you think I should earn more or less than a trucker or a bussy for hauling the same cargo as them? If I should earn the same then Ill take the pay rise.

Now what exactly is your point?....unless (I say again) wind up!

Still you wont tell us anything about yourself...

[Oz Ocker]

By crikey soma youse are takin this a bit personal ya know. Like ya sez mjbo, ya can alredy see where pilots saleries ave 'eaded fer the last few years but lotsa ya are still scratchin yer @rses an askin "Why". Then when a bloke trys ta tell youse, ya get all bl00dy uppity bout it.
Mate, id be appy to see youse all earninas much as yer reackon yer worth - aint no skin offa my teeth. An when ya look at aller the money youse ave ad to fork out to get where youse are, an all the trinin and checks an sh!t - well gawd knows, its like ya gotta be some sorta masokist to wanna be a pilot.
But that aint the point. The point is ya job equipment and role is changin. Like that Wiley fella writ, whether ya like it or not, youse are been seen more like computer oprators nowadays.
Some of ya bullsh!t on about engine failures and cr@p but take a look at the 777 fer example - if she blows a donk its all taken care of for ya.

Technology has replaced a LOT of the skills that were once required by youse an so yore all becomin more easily replaceable.

Once upon a time the number a hours ya had flown used ta be the yardstick fer qualifyin fer a position, not no more it aint. Simply cause the maniplative skill required fer the job - them skills ya usta get from hour buildin - aint needed anywhere near as much.
So in the bosses eyes 'es got a lot more pilots available to im than 'es ad in the past.
I aint tryin to wind youse up at all - but some of youse are gettin wound up n angry because ya dont wanna see the reality of whats starin ya in the face.

Ere's a simple question that I wanna ask ALLER youse ta answer truthful...do ya reackon its easier or harder to fly the latest technology airoplane of today (fer example the 777) than the stuff its replaced?

See youse round.

[tinpis]

Hmmmm... Woomera does the Oz ocker perchance have a Vietnam IP address?

:p

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I don't why I am biting here OZ, but here goes.

New Technology aircraft are easier to physically pole around the sky in one major way, that is, if you lose an engine it will automatically add the required rudder.

On the 777 you have also an autothrottle for each engine so you can control engine thrust via the autothrottle. So in those two respects it is easier to fly than say a 767.

Consider this though.

Transistorisation got rid of radio operators.

INS got rid of NAV's.

Computerisation got rid of Flight Engineers.

Yet we still have pilots even though, as you say, aircraft are easier to fly than they were on the good old days.

Why is this?

If you were paid primarily by the skill with which you hand fly a large aircraft around the world, then pay rates should have taken a major drop in the 1950, when more sophisticated auto-pilots became available.

What you don't seem to have grasped is that a pilots skill in physically flying the aircraft is a small part of the package he is being paid for.

I am not going to detail the elements of that package. It's been done to death. Lets just say that the package is usually not innate in a neophyte, and is something that only time and practice will round out in someone. In other words, experience.

That is what airlines pay for, and that is why computers still have decades to go before they replace pilots.

[Wirraway]

www.rockwellcollins.com.

Virgin Blue taps Rockwell Collins for avionics on 10 new aircraft

CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (September 9, 2003) - Rockwell Collins has been selected by Virgin Blue to provide avionics and in-flight entertainment (IFE) equipment for 10 new Boeing 737 aircraft with an option for 40 additional aircraft. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2004.

The avionics package selected by Virgin Blue includes Rockwell Collins communication, navigation and surveillance sensors, including the Collins GLU-920 multi-mode receiver (MMR) and Collins WXR-2100 MultiScan weather radar.

The GLU-920 multi-mode receiver (MMR) provides the aircraft's primary position, velocity and time reference and enables precision landing capability. It offers instrument landing system (ILS) capability and high-integrity, satellite-based positioning for navigation and future landing functions, and offers growth to support microwave landing system (MLS) capability.

The MultiScan radar optimizes short- and long-range weather detection at all times without requiring pilot adjustment of the radar tilt control, and alerts flight crews during takeoff and approach of potentially dangerous wind shear. In addition to the new aircraft installations, Virgin Blue will retrofit MultiScan into 27 existing Boeing 737 aircraft, upgrading them from their current Collins weather radar to the WXR-2100.

Other flight deck equipment includes the VHF and HF communication radios as well as traffic alert and collision avoidance systems (TCAS), ADF, VOR, DME, radio altimeters and transponders.

The cabins of the new Virgin Blue Boeing 737s will feature Rockwell Collins' Programmable Audio Video Entertainment System (PAVES™), offering overhead video on 10.4-inch retractable monitors and 24 channels of high-fidelity digital in-seat audio programming. The monitors offer passengers wide viewing angles with crisp and bright picture quality.

Rockwell Collins (NYSE: COL) is a leader in the design, production and support of communications and aviation electronics solutions for government and commercial customers worldwide. Additional information is available at www.rockwellcollins.com.

==========================================

[mjbow2]

TCoB.....I agree!

the way I see it though, is that I am paid for my decision making also! not my manipulative skills of flying an inherently safe aircraft. Even before the 50's when the automation and reliable jet technology wasn’t available yet, most accidents could be attributable to human factors. (anyone care to dig up those stats...Bik, you know where to find that kind of stuff my friend?)

I think the point Ocker is driving at is something like supply and demand. I too am not oblivious to the commercial realities of today.

However...I would like to think that I have the experience, knowledge base, situational awareness, control, analytical mindset, judgement, leadership, decision making ability, focus, perseverance, attitude, training and maturity that warrants a pay check worthy of a trucker operating a truck worth many millions more if I wad it up, carrying cargo no less expensive to replace in an environment that is far LESS FORGIVING than the Pacific Highway. Not to mention to get my own back side, let alone everyone elses back to terra firma safely, when things do go wrong.

Like you say Ock.....anyone can point the thing where you want it to go! look at those Jackasses back on 11/9/01 with virtually no training. Care to have our old mate Mohammad Skipper your next trip to sunny Brisie? after all he did have all the training he needed (measurable in minutes) to put that technological mammoth just where he wanted!


Just for the record there ocker....those 'masokists' as you refer would be called 'committed' in other circles.

[Continental-520]

Yep, this (immediately above) and what The_Cutest_of_Borg has written is what I was trying to say in my first post, but couldn't quite word it as well, and hence became the laughing stock of the forum. Yipee!

It's when the chips are down that it is nothing shy of essential to have an appropriately trained and qualified crew there, of course.


520.

[Auria Wara]

:ok: And I thought Management had no sense of Humour!

[Cactus Jack]

Sounds to me like 'e writes for "picture" magazine. Or just reads it too much.

Well, back to the stupidity.

[Oz Ocker]

Ahaa, at long bl00dy last it seems like theres some sensible discussion comin from some of youse willin to scratch the surface a bit.
So now that the techies ave taken away the arguement fer havin the pilot there ta take care a engine failures, lets talk a bit about the decision makin bit.
Lets say, fer example, yer weather radar shows a big storm ahead. Then you can argue that yave gotta go around the big bludger - one of them "decisions" that only the pilot can decide. But I reckon the day cant be too far orf that once the autamatics pick up that storm on the radar then itll automaticly steer clear of it..

Yeah blokes, this "decision makin" s grand arguement, but its not somethin that you can prove to a boss thats lookin at hirin. Is it.
Ya could say that aviation is at the "cuttin edge" of technology an the fastest advances are bein made with airoplanes an will continue to be. mebbe not to necissaraly get ridda the pilots, but thats what the R an D people are payed ta do - aint it?

An Id bet me shirt sleevs that when the first pilot-less airoplane arrives on the sceen there wont be no shortage of idiots willin to take their seat fer the first ride.
I reckon youse are gunna see pilot trainin reduced in the future, simpley cos the skills aint gunna be needed. An from the bosses pointa view, whay are ya gunna pay for somethin that ya dont need?
Its happnin now - ya still dont takke along a navigata (no relation to an alligata) jus cos ya navigation equipment might fall over in an eap.

Anyways its the week end. Im orf to the pub.
See youse round.

[TheNightOwl]

Do I perhaps detect a wind-up by CitizenXX in another, more modern, form?

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl. :confused:

[OzExpat]

I wonder if it's worthwhile considering the sort of legal advice that has been provided to airline CEOs? This may or may not be germane to the whole issue. It seems to me that "the boss" will do whatever he (or she) can to save money, but with the proviso that it's not likely to end them up with crippling law suits etc.

I feel sure that they will all want to embrace the so-called "pilotless aeroplane" concept, as a way to save significant sums of money. But they need to consider the issue of public confidence first and, then, public liability - for the time when the technology might all turn to worms, killing... what... 400 people? 800 people? More?

Pick up just about any book of fictitious action/drama and you'll find that many authors have already postulated the effects of EMP on airline aircraft. Whether or not those effects are real, one would have to think that the risk is magnified these days by terrorism and the so-called war against terrorism.

I don't want to sidetrack this debate down that particular path. I merely use it as an example of the potentially ruinous public liability claims that could arise after implementation of airline aircraft that fly by themselves. I'm aware that the possible effects of EMP might well be beyond the control of even the most skilled aircrew and so maybe the airline CEOs see it the same way. Thus, whatever legal advice might have been given to them might help us to determine the liklihood of the system going the way that Oz Ocker suggests.

Any legal eagles out there have any thoughts on this?

[Soulman]

Mes mate Oz Ocker,

Mate, mes gotz sum Enklish homeworrk duoo dis weak and mes waz wundring if yous kood hellp me out bi chans? :confused:

Mayb if I's waz 2 drop bi da pub, wen yous iz not 2 bzy we kood sit down and doo it ova a coupla kwiet ones? ;)

Only if yous is not 2 bzy m8. its juzt dat I's iz relly struglin wif da hole koncept of dis Enklish langwedge and yous looxs like yous iz a wiz, so mes was finkin yous koold help me out, coz wen I's growws up, mes wants 2 bkum a pilot or sumfin like dat. Yous woodn't be a kareer adviza bi chance? :}

Mezzarge me wen yous wants to katch up. :p

Chears & beerz,

Souls.

[I's wood edart dis 4 da ti-ping erraz and stuuff, but like I's sed, mes not 2 good @ da whole 'Enklish' fing yet. ;) ]

[Oz Ocker]

"A rose by any other name" - well youse know the resta that one I reckon.
Anyways aint it kinda funny that some-one else as decided ta start another postinn talkin bout the same sorta thing. Im referrin to Col Walter E. Kurtzs thing about pilot saleries an conditions.
Same orse, diffrent colour.

Ya take the p!ss outta me spellin all youse like, trubble is a course ya cant look past it to see what the real issues are. Whadda they say about the forest an the trees?
So whos the REAL dummies ere?

See youse round.

[stable approach]

Nail on the head I think Night Owl.
First time he's been game to raise his head ( albeit in another cowardly disguise ) since ratting on another group of colleagues.

[Oz Ocker]

What the fark yer on about, "another cowardly disguise". I'll punch ya friggin lights out if ya like an see ow "cowardly" ya reackon I am then thickead!
But fer the infermation yer 100% wrong pal.
Now try stickin ta the bl00dy topic an add some INTELLIGENT inputs ya wacker.

While the airoplane is spinnin outta control, some a youse are to worried which ones havin the chicken instead a the beef.

[Woomera]

This thread appears to have run it's course


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