View Full Version : Concorde (merged)

7th Sep 2003, 19:05
I read in The Times yesterday that Airbus are not allowing a Concorde to be kept airworthy for use in air displays and special flypasts. Grrrr!

What's there problem? Surely Concorde is a fantastic advert for BA, BAe, Airbus and UK Ltd?

I feel frustrated...all too soon Concorde will be grounded - it's slipping through our fingers, never to fly again.

Who can I lobby? Anyone got any suitable contacts in BA, Airbus, CAA?

Martin - Bristol, UK

7th Sep 2003, 22:18
Who can I lobby? Speak to the people who started us down this road ... Air France.

ATC Watcher
7th Sep 2003, 22:41
AFR not the correct one, EADS ( Airbus bosses) are . they are the ones who decided to pull the plug on maintaining / manufacturing the spares. No frantic opposition from AFR and BAW I was told who were possibly looking for such an excuse for the (very) poor load factors . :rolleyes:

7th Sep 2003, 22:48
What The Times said was:


September 06, 2003

Airbus ‘non’ keeps Concorde off air show circuit
By Ben Webster, Transport Correspondent

A FRENCH refusal to help British Airways’ plans to keep at least one Concorde in working order means the supersonic plane is unlikely to fly beyond the end of this year.
Airbus, the plane’s Toulouse-based manufacturer, will not co-operate with a team assembled by BA to investigate how one of the airline’s seven supersonic planes could be retained for flypasts, air shows and royal celebrations.

Airbus is refusing to share its technical expertise with any other company that could take over the role of supporting Concorde.

The 30-year-old plane is now unlikely to take to the skies again beyond the end of this year. Its last commercial flight is on October 24 and there may be a flight to America to coincide with the centenary, on December 17, of the Wright brothers’ first flight at Kitty Hawk, North Carolina.

Safety rules require every plane to have a “type certificate” to keep flying. Concorde’s type certificate is held by Airbus, which monitors any safety modifications to the planes and provides technical advice to BA engineers.

Jock Lowe, BA’s former chief Concorde pilot, was asked by the airline six months ago to draw up a plan for saving one Concorde. “The idea was just to run half a dozen flights a year on special occasions. At least the plane would be alive and people could enjoy seeing it in the air.”

Mr Lowe said that Airbus would need to provide only minimal support because the ceremonial flights would be subsonic and contain no passengers. “We are only talking about 100 flying hours spread over five years. For that much flying, you could cannibalise the other Concordes for spares. But Airbus appears unwilling.”

Mr Lowe has spoken to several British companies about supporting Concorde and is confident one of them would be prepared to take on Concorde’s type certificate if Airbus was willing to co-operate.

But an Airbus spokesman said the company believed that Concorde should be grounded for good. “It’s all very well to have a dream of keeping on flying but at the end of the day, if it is prohibitively costly, it doesn’t make sense. Concorde may be an icon and something we can be proud of, but it’s a very old plane. Are people seriously suggesting that we maintain a number of technical experts for an aircraft in case something needs to be changed or modified?”

Asked whether Airbus would be willing to pass on the type certificate to another company, the spokesman said: “I think the answer is ‘no’. It’s not like a car where you can just slap on a spare part. You have to have an understanding of how it all fits together.” The spokesman initially claimed that Airbus employed a “huge number” of Concorde engineers, but when pressed to say how many, he admitted that there were “relatively few”.

The Civil Aviation Authority, the air safety regulator, said it would be willing to allow Concorde to keep flying if another company took on the plane’s type certificate. A spokesman said: “It is possible, however, the new people would need Airbus to hand over everything that they hold on the aircraft. If Airbus won’t do that, there is no way we can make them do it.”

The BA source said that the airline had wanted to keep Concorde in service for at least two years. But the airline had been forced to accelerate Concorde’s retirement after Airbus said it would not support the fleet beyond October. Air France, the only other Concorde operator, which lost one plane in a crash in Paris, had been making heavy losses and is believed to have held secret talks with Airbus to agree an early retirement date. Air France has already retired its five Concordes and has given them away to museums.

Sleeve Wing
7th Sep 2003, 23:12
From my understanding then, it is the Fr*gs again putting spoke in.

Can I suggest that next time we design something decent, we keep it to ourselves ? - or am I being too naive ?


:E :E :E

8th Sep 2003, 00:38
did anyone see Concorde fly over the Oval on friday last on approach to LHR (England versus South Africa Test match) .....

the Batsmen looked up !!! ..... the Fielders looked up!!! .... the Umpires looked up!!!! ..... and of course the Spectators all looked up!!! ....

even the Bowler looked up (silly man !!!! ....lol)

Concorde still commands so much respect and admiration....

cheers .... hobie ....

8th Sep 2003, 00:43
Concorde Fleet Engineering Manager said the other dayat RAeS speech, and quite rightly really, that if one is kept going, then it should be kept going in full commercial service, since the corrosion issues on the airframe when it is not flown mean that simply keeping it for airshows would be untenable after a while.

Bear in mind that the airframe requires supersonic travel to heat up, remove moisture buildup and to prevent corrosion. Unfortunately nobody has the money to do just that - it has been rather unlucky with the load factors in the economic climate, but with the highest houred at 7,900 flight, and an 8,500 limit before major rewoking is required, it wouldn't be able to last long even in Branson's hands.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
8th Sep 2003, 04:02
I think the situation here is that Concorde is only tenable if a reaonable sized fleet is flying. Then, the astronomical suprort costs can be amortised across the fleet.

The Frogs pulled out, which imposed all those costs onto the BA fleet. So BA is pulling out. Who could afford those costs set against one 'airshow' Concorde?

An amazing part of our aviation heritage is passing away. It's very sad. All I can say is those of you who haven't yet sampled it, do it before it goes!


country calls
8th Sep 2003, 04:27
I note it is the french keeping concorde from a useful future, either with Dickie Bs airline or as a display kite. What then should we do about the FSTA contract? Will that have the plug pulled by the onion scoffers, when they decide we 'need' a new tanker because the Toulouse factory is losing money again? Why are they so scared of handing the Design Authority over to someone else, a lesser man would conclude they have something to hide.

Perhaps the final months of this supersonic marvel should be given to pleasure flights for people who can afford it. And all moneys taken donated to the Vulcan fund, so at least one awe inspiring delta will stop people in their tracks as they watch it go by.

Q. How many frenchmen does it take to defend paris?

A. Nobody knows they havent managed it yet!

Point Seven
8th Sep 2003, 06:46
Hold on a mo. Why should they pay to keep Concorde airborne just because people like to see it? There happens to be NO financial incentive in doing so. If there was, believe me, they'd do it.

The facts of the matter are that Concorde, whilst being graceful, noisy, fast, blah, blah is extremely expensive to keep operating. The outlay of keeping her up would not be covered by enthusiasts going to see it. And before anyone points to all recent flights being full, they wouldn't be if she weren't finishing in October.

Concorde has been both a refreshing and resolutely European part of the aviation scene for the last thirty some years. Now let's let her retire with some dignity.


Bear in mind that when people hear such xenophobic crap as above, then they tend not to want to help out anyway.:rolleyes:

8th Sep 2003, 06:59
well maybe if BA's sharelholders had question thier company (it is thiers not Ozzie Ed's or Lord Marshland's) on thier burning 84Million Pounds mothballing the fleet, when Branson was publicaly prepared to take the birds, parts and people. this state of affairs would not have arrisen. I think many of the nigels may underestimate Branson's bargaining power with Airbus. He i taking deliverys of 346s right now (10 on order), and has 6 380's on order - additionally it is well known he is in talks about expanding the fleet - the possibility of an all airbus fleet has been mentioned. In addition he is 49% controled by Singapore Airlines who are the launch client for both the 345 (5 ordered and 5 options)and 380 (10 ordered and 15 on option). BA has no Airbus Longhaul aircraft on order however it does have 56 operating 319/20s and with a further 20 319/20/21s on order - most interesting is the 99 319s it has optioned. It is intersting that BA has no boeings on order or option - i have raised these figures and find myself at a different conclusion than I was at when i began typing.

BA has 99 options on Airbus craft - all its boeing shorthaul fleet is leased ie get ridable for want of a term. Why have they not brought pressure to bare on Airbus

This is a ridiculous state of affairs - Europe is faces with throwing away technology 20 years early because of the French - lets go to war - the US will support us

country calls
8th Sep 2003, 07:32

Nobody expects the french to pay for it, just do the decent thing and hand over the Design Authority to somebody who is willing to use it to maintain the aircraft. Branson is no fool, or he would still be peddaling cheap CDs on a market stall somewhere. If he reckons he can make it work then why not give him a chance to. If he fails I will happily accept a big fat told you so.

Xenophobe? No. Francophobe yes, and with good reason IMHO.

Call me cynical but I firmly believe that the reluctance of Airbus is purely because Air France would look prize Chumps, if a British company operated it at a profit WITHOUT massive subsidy from the government. And yes, I am fully aware that before BA was privatised HMG chucked a substantial sum at them particularly the Concorde fleet. We onlyhave to look at agriculture to see the level of protectionism in the french economy: British lambs burnt alive in lorries on the docks at Boulogne, Fines from the EU for not reallowing British beef, fines incidentally which are still not paid, creation of butter mountains and wine lakes... the list is endless.

Please see the paragraph of The Times article above relating to the amount of Concorde engineers to illustrate further my point that there is something niffy about the Airbus Industries response to requests for Type Certification

I wonder if Jongar has any stats on the amount of business that air france are putting Airbus's way?

Jordan D
8th Sep 2003, 15:58
How is we can allow the French to screw up British Heritage?

Lets look at the evidence:

They failed to clear the runway at CDG prior to the crash.
They wanted the plane withdrawn, because their schedule was unprofitable.
They get to refuse to service our Concordes.
They get to say no to give the contract to anyone else.

How can we allow this to happen?

They didn't support the war and won't send troops, so I say no to them getting any of the Iraqi Oil.

Let's tell them where we stand once and for all.


8th Sep 2003, 17:02
Most posters, in their attack on Airbus, seem to be missing the obvious point that is wrong in Airbus's approach.

Surely it is not Airbus's place to say that it would be uneconomical to continue operating Concorde? What Airbus should do is provide BA with a cost of mainting the type certificate (no doubt they would make it enormous). Then it is up to BA, who pick up the tab, to decide whether they can afford it or not. The supplier gives a price, the customer decides whether they can afford it or not.

Or is this not the French way of doing business?

Shaggy Sheep Driver
8th Sep 2003, 18:14
Groundloop - I think that's the way it happened. Airbus comes up with a big number, Air France says 'time to pull out' ('cause they aren't that keen to operate the bird anyway). Airbus says 'in that case, BA, since AF have dropped out, you'll have have to pay ALL this big number yourself'. BA can't make the numbers work, so have to pull out of Conc operations as well.

Mr Branson spots a publicity oportunity and, quite naturally, exploits it.


8th Sep 2003, 20:26
Were it not for the ‘onion-scoffing’, ‘cowardly’, ‘protectionist’, ‘frogs’, the British government would have pulled the plug on the Concorde project before it even entered service, and we wouldn’t be having this ‘debate’ (I use the term loosely) now.

Still, let’s not let that get in the way of a bit of frog-bashing. Makes me proud to be British. :yuk:

8th Sep 2003, 20:42
As I understand it Airbus as the successor to BAe / BAC are contractually bound to provide the support for Concorde as long as ONE of the operators wants to use it. I don't know if there are any clauses that guarantee sensible pricing for this service......

8th Sep 2003, 23:18
hobie: absolutely it stopped everyone at the Oval and was shown on national t.v. - brilliant advertising or what?

shaggy: no, the plan was to keep 1 in flying condition and not license it for fare paying pax - I imagine the this would keep costs down somewhat. Certainly BA were seriously looking at this until the news on Saturday.

point seven: no you are wrong - the financial incentive is pure advertising - as mentioned above, it's a crowd stopper wherever it goes - enough to make BA consider keeping just 1 flying.

country calls: I think you've hit the nail on the head - the French have had an uneasy relationship with Concorde no doubt excerbated by the tragic crash. I do believe it's a historically important aircraft, a crowd pleaser and still totally unique - how on earth can we be letting it become a static museum piece?

As has been said, I don't think Airbus should be in a position to say 'non' - they should cooperate with whoever wishes to continue operating this magnificent aircraft, commercially or air display only.

Martin - Bristol, UK

Lastly - good postings chaps but...

Does no one know the answer to my original posting - i.e. a contact in Airbus or BA or BAe to lobby? With old historic aircraft being resurected all the time, it seems crazy to take Concorde out of the skies. It'll be too late in just a few months to do anything about it.

Martin - Bristol, UK.

9th Sep 2003, 01:01
Air France has 5 330's 22 340's and 114 shorthaul 31x/32x aircraft - dont have any details on whats on order or options. Additionally they have 10 380s on order and 4 options

9th Sep 2003, 01:06
I, too, would love to see Dicky operate it. Just imagine what it would look like in Virgin colours!

Everything the guy touches turns to gold (Okay - await flaming from Virgin staff here, about how he keeps costs down?) so, if he thinks he can make Conc viable, I'd bet he could

At this point very tempted to "frog bash", but resists the temptation :yuk:
"Martin Baker - the ONLY way to fly . . . . .

9th Sep 2003, 01:31
Virgin Concorde......hummmmm I wonder..... ;)



Point Seven
9th Sep 2003, 05:06
Jordan D

You are way out of line. Saying that "the French" didn't clear the runway at CDG is preposterous. Yes, ultimately someone is to blame but for Christ's sake put it to bed. People died there and an investigation took place where blame was assigned officially so we don't need your stupid, Francophobic kangaroo court. Did the whole of France check the runway? So why blame the whole of France.

In case it had escaped your attention, half of our own country did not want to commit troops to Iraq. No oil for them either? Decisions are taken the world over for economic reasons and as I said, it is only an aeroplane.

Whatever, we don't need ridiculous, racist nonsense of the sort you posted (and others) on here. As the professionals we are, we should mourn Concorde's passing with the respect and dignity that she deserves. Nothing lasts forever. You could do well to remember that.


9th Sep 2003, 05:53
Law number one of the proposed UK constitution :

The French may be blamed for anything.

Any person of english heratige may declare war on them

9th Sep 2003, 06:43
I believe the grounding of the concorde fleet is a total disgrace. The true culprits / vilans are hard to pinpoint as they blame each other.

However, BA keeping 1 for shows is equally outrageous. The cost would be outrageous and in this cost cutting world we now live in this would be the ultimate proof that BA is still run for the benifit of its staff and not the customers or share holders. I can see no advertising or PR value in Mr Bannister flying by at a few air shows to show the punters what only he is now alowed to enjoy.

I hate to say it, but if she's being grounded thay all should.

9th Sep 2003, 16:28
Can agree with you - one should be kept airworthy as an example of british engineering. We were the first to sustaned supersonic passenger service and to destroy that on a given day is wrong. As a shareholder I do agree with you though - that is why brasons offer to put money into a charity, co sponsered by BA to keep one bird flying should havebeen accepted

9th Sep 2003, 16:36
So, Concorde supporters, what we going to do about it guys?

It's probably in vain, but I'd still like to do some lobbying so at least I can say I've not just sat back and watched muttering and complaining.

Somebody out there must have an email address of suitably senior people in Airbus, BA, BAe, CAA.

Martin - Bristol, UK.

9th Sep 2003, 20:39
Stepping aside from our alternative national sport for one moment :rolleyes: , does anyone else find it odd that BA haven't made a Concorde available for flypasts at any of the major airshows in the UK this year?

I'm particularly thinking of RIAT, Waddington, and Duxford, all of which have been themed in such a way as to have made a Concorde appearance a potentially huge crowd-puller, especially after the announcement of the aircraft's retirement. An opportunity missed, I feel. :(

9th Sep 2003, 21:03
Good point. I expect BA would say the remaining airworthy Concordes are too busy...shame though.

Incidentally, I've emailed chief exec of Airbus asking why they won't support keeping a Concorde airworthy for special occassions.

I believe his email address to be: [email protected] for anyone else who wants to lobby.

Martin - Bristol, UK

9th Sep 2003, 22:02
Indeed, that's was my first thought. I believe a 'permit to fly' is adminstered by the PFA and I don't think an aircraft as complex or as large as Concorde comes under their jurisdiction!

Anyone know though, if you can operate an aircraft like Concorde without a 'type certificate' if it's not used for fare-paying pax? How about an ordinary private C of A?

ATC Watcher
10th Sep 2003, 04:16
Amusing this love-hate relation that English have with the French..

It seems everything they do upset you, but I am told the Brits are he first importers of their wine and buy the most property in that land than any other European country..
And France second most polular game , rugby is almost exclusively an British-French affair.

But, what amaze me most is that you all seem to identify Airbus completely with France...
To my knowledge France has less than 40% share on Airbus, so if the decision was indeed only Airbus , ( as your Press claim ) then it is equally the fault of the Germans, and of course the UK,which hold 20% of Airbus :E

I was told that bare economics stopped Concorde, not AFR alone.

10th Sep 2003, 04:45
Thank you ATC.
I've been around enough to know that Concorde people of both Great Britain and France are very proud and know that it was not a British aeroplane nor a French aeroplane but a wonderful example of two great nations working together to produce something quite exceptional.
That partnership was not always 100% sweetness and light and neither is any other meaningful relationship between two brilliant parties, but, by heavens, it worked!
Concorde has given great service but now the time has come to move on.
Airbus is not a French company but truly an enterprise using skills from around the world owned by Germany, France, the UK and Spain - that diversity is why it's doing so well! So, the juvenile pastime of French bashing is not only distasteful in itself but also insulting to half the team that built the Concorde and also wildly inappropriate in the context of Airbus.


10th Sep 2003, 10:02
To clarify my earlier post

If one was to be maintained by a charity / enthusiasts group, in flying condition- great. It is amazing what such groups can and have done. BUTany such group should be totally seperate from BA

10th Sep 2003, 15:24
Let the RAF have them, converted to a bomber,
I remember years ago that they thought about it.
Maybe they will go the same way as the TSR2 did, after all it was scrapped in favour of the Concorde. I hope not though. A Beautiful British (and French) Aircraft.

10th Sep 2003, 15:37
If Concorde continues to fly, it should be in revenue service. Not just an air show ego trip machine for Porky.

Concorde is being killed by many factors. Here are some of them:

1. The French accident caused principally by the risky decision to take-off well over RTOW compounded by questionable CRM (read the accident report and CVR print out if you don't believe me).

2. BA and AF's failure to market the aeroplane positively when it returned to revenue service.

3. BA's refusal to talk to Sir Richard Branson about the possibility of Virgin Atlantic taking over the operation of Concorde.

The aircraft should continue in revenue service whilst it still has airframe life left. In this so-called 'centenary of flight' year, for BA to give up on its only unique asset is an utter disgrace.

10th Sep 2003, 16:23
David Learmount and Richard Branson were on GMTV this morning arguing for one Concorde to be kept flying. RB even agreed that it should remain in BA colours. They suggested that Qinetiq could take over responsibility for design authority.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
10th Sep 2003, 16:45
Maybe they will go the same way as the TSR2 did, after all it was scrapped in favour of the Concorde.

I though TSR2 was ditched by Dennis Healy to curry favour with the US so they'd support his application for an IMF loan?


10th Sep 2003, 16:53
ATC - don't know who your missive was aimed at but as the author of the original post, I can clarify I for one, are not anti-French. The UK does hold a minority interest in Airbus but you are right that it is truly pan-european not just French.

My original post emphasised my complete amazement and desperation that no one seems to be able to come up with an acceptable plan to keep just one flying. When there are so many historic aircraft being flown and many others being restored it seems unforgivable to let Concorde die making any future restoration so much more difficult.

Why do some people just shrug their shoulders and say 'Concorde has had it's day...let her rest in peace'? This attitude fails to capture the exitement many, many people around the world have with Concorde and also is somewhat defeatist. I can't beleive that between Airbus, BA, Virgin and the public in UK and France, a workeable solution cannot be found.

If The Times is to be believed, Airbus have put the final nail in by refusing to support Concorde. As has been posted by others, I wouldn't expect them to soley pick up the tab but perhaps make a contribution if only administrative. I would imagine many of their engineers would give their time for free to be part of a historic Concorde group.

Still...it's only the most famous passenger aircraft in the world...it's only something that is still unsurpassed and with the last Concorde flight later this year, it will be the first time in aviation history that technology has gone backwards.

Not to worry, in a couple of months Concorde will be grounded forever and I'll quietly cry into my beer (or should that be magnum of Bollinger in tribute to Concorde).

Martin - Bristol, UK

country calls
10th Sep 2003, 19:45
I have a cat, now where are those pigeons again?

There is a 'conspiracy theory' doing the rounds at the moment, that NASA want at least one Concord for supersonic research.

Any takers on the thought this is why Airbus are so reluctant to allow access to type certification?

10th Sep 2003, 21:15
Concorde - a name, not a number! As were Comet, Viscount, Vanguard, Caravelle........even Brabazon.

(Unlike 340, 380, 747, 7E7 or any of the other anonymous people-tubes so beloved of today's bean counters)

No comment
11th Sep 2003, 04:27
"There is a 'conspiracy theory' doing the rounds at the moment, that NASA want at least one Concord for supersonic research."

Not out of reach really, dont forget they did the same with the Tu-144 a couple of years ago. Mind you Tupolev (as far as I know) are still able to support the type.

Supersonic research is underway at the moment with a modified F-5 to test various ways of reducing sonic booms so could be the next logical step to use a larger aircraft.

(I think I'm being a bit too optimistic though plus I'm not a conspiracy theorist so I'll shut up!!!)

the egg man
11th Sep 2003, 05:25
lets face the facts concorde will not fly past october 2003,
no airbus support, BA and air france do not want to finance concorde ,who will pay for the day to day upkeep, for it to do only 100 hrs a year,who will payto keep crews current,who will pay for it to fly around the airshow circuit,the bare facts are it will cost a lot to keep one flying.WHO WILL PAY THE BILLS????
sorry to say it but the old girl has had its day.

ATC Watcher
13th Sep 2003, 02:10
Martine, my earlier post was not meant for you, but rather at those Sun readers who take what's on the papers for granted.
I , up to now, thought that to become a pilot would imply a certain degree of education, which would in itself induce a form of critical reflection. I apparently was naive.

Back to the subject : The egg man above resumes the situation correctly. EADS ( which oversees Airbus now ) is ( trying ) to appear making commercial versus political decisions . This is new both in France and Germany. The first difficult choice was the A380 go ahead and deciding where the monster will be built, who get what share , etc.. . The second is dropping the grandpa and grandma expensive habbits. Concorde is part of those.
I was told that Both AFR and BAW beancounters did not object, as the bird was becoming expensive to maintain , not to mention the poor load factors ( before the announcement ).

Finally Beagle said :
quote : 1. The French accident caused principally by the risky decision to take-off well over RTOW compounded by questionable CRM (read the accident report and CVR print out if you don't believe me).
You are printing statements which are a disgrace to the memory of the crew

"Risky decision to take off " , are you suggesting another crew would have handled the emergency differently ?
You seems to read ( and interpret ) what you want in the report.
For memory V1 was 150Kts , Vr 198 . V1 was called, the first indications something was wrong occured at 183 Kts, the first warning at 196 Kts.
2 simulations done proved that a rejected take off with full brakes would have ended in overrruns at 75 Kts ( for a rejection called at 183 Kts) to 115 Kts ( for a rejection at 196 Kts) resulting in a "catastrophic end for the aircraft and its occupants "according the same report.
Yes the MTOW was 185 ,0 T and they started the t/o run with 185,8 t, anyone in Concorde fleet, as well as in the investigation team will tell you this is insignificant and has negligeable effect of the take off speeds or distance. This a Concorde taking off with reheat, not a 737.

As for the CRM : the report said : "The crew had no way of gasping the overall reality of the situation. They reacted instinctively ...in a unknown situation "

For me, and many others, the AFR CONC crew behaved professionbally and if someone can say they would have done it better, please explain .

Your call Mr Beagle

P.S : I am normally not that hard on someone but I hate people sitting in confortable offices explaining a year later , with all hindsight and information what a pilot (or a controller) should have done with a a few seconds to spare. Apologies.

13th Sep 2003, 02:47
ATC: Hear, Hear! The report (which I have seen a full copy) did not blame the crew in any significant way, including the overweight take off.

Hind-sight is a wonderful thing.

What I find disturbing (and this from an obvious Concorde fan) is the fact that a tyre burst can loose an aircraft and the fact that an almost identical event had happened before to a Concorde on take off some years before with a fortuitously different result.

Martin - Bristol, UK.

13th Sep 2003, 03:55
Sorry - I wrote well over RTOW, not MTOW. I concede that 0.8 tonne over MTOW would be relatively insignificant as long as the ac was below RTOW. Which acknowledged Concorde experts have confirmed was certainly not the case. It is highly risky to elect to be cavalier with performance calculations and to attempt to take-off well over RTOW because you run the risk of being unable to stop within the domain if you have a failure just before your incorrect V1 - or possibly of being able to ensure a safe climb out if you experience the failure after V1. That's basic knowledge for any heavy 4-jet ac pilot.

Accident reports, quite rightly, do not apportion blame. They seek to establish causal factors in order to eliminate the possibility of such a ting ever happening again. Nowhere have I seen a calcualtion of the actual RTOW for the conditions as known by the crew immediately before they began their take-off. Figures calculated for a couple of knots of headwind would have been considerably in error for the actual tailwind which was passed to the crew......

To shut down an engine which is still producing any thrust at such a critical stage of flight is what I refer to as questionable CRM. It should be instinctive to call 'full power' and to attempt to accelerate to a safe speed, then deal with the engine when you know that you no longer need the thrust. Whilst they might possibly have been doomed later as the fire worsened, they were certainly doomed when up to 25% of thrust was denied to them at this critical stage.

One last point - I used words such as 'risky' and 'questionable', not directly accusative prose. RIP.

13th Sep 2003, 06:58

You are talking absolute nonsense. Your lack of knowlege of the Concorde aeroplane and its performance ought to have stopped you from making such inflammatory remarks, sadly it didn't.

From your postings <<The French accident caused principally by the risky decision to take-off well over RTOW>> and then later you wrote <<Nowhere have I seen a calcualtion of the actual RTOW for the conditions>>..... well quite.

The accident had nothing to do with the question of RTOW and whether a tailwind existed at the time (post accident analysis showed it didn't) - it was caused by very unusual and highly damaging FOD leading to a sequence of failures which crew action could not change. The all-consuming fire was non-survivable. The takeoff weight had no bearing on the consumption by fire of the flying control surfaces, the loss of the hydraulic systems and associated failures which led to the loss of the aeroplane. If you understood the accident report and the aeroplane you would also undertand that.

<<for BA to give up on its only unique asset is an utter disgrace>> It hasn't - it has been told to stop and has fought tooth and nail to keep her in service. To go on to October after the French finished in May was a very hard fought concession. Fought by BA, not Branson. If BA are not to be allowed to fly the Concorde, what makes you think Branson would be?

14th Sep 2003, 21:44
I am an avid AVIATION FAN but dont get me wrong but I think if you asked the 95% of the English population who can not or could not afford to fly on one they COULDNT GIVE A S*** about it's fate.:rolleyes: :ouch:

Dr Jekyll
14th Sep 2003, 23:23
I think you'll find that many of those who couldn't afford to fly Concorde wanted it to stay in service until they could.
Even many people convinced they would never travel on it are shocked and saddened by the retirement.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
15th Sep 2003, 03:20
I count myself lucky that I manged to get my Concorde jump seat ride the summer before the Paris crash and also, of course, before 9/11 which stopped all jump seating and curtailed trans atlantic air travel.

However, the reason I made the trip, and my wife spent the money on 2 Manchester - Paris supersonic flight tickets (which seemed expensive at the time but in retrospect were a fantastic bargain) was because she asked me what I wanted to do to celebrate a significant birthday, and I replied "I'd love to fly supersonic". I knew the old bird was getting on a bit, wouldn't be around for ever, and there was no successor. I felt it was 'now or never'.

The jump seat was the icing on the cake.

An absolutely unforgettable experience, and one that I treasure.

But the point was, that even back then, before Paris and while she was still enjoying healthy trans-Atlantic load factors, I thought Concorde flight was an opportunity with a limited time to run simply because of the age and complexity of the aeroplane and the complete lack of any successor.

Though it greives me deeply that this lovely aeroplane will soon be banished from the skies, it doesn't really surprise me. The writing was on the wall before Paris, and before the post-9/11 downturn in air travel. The real reason we will no longer be able to enjoy supersonic flight is because there was no 'son of Concorde'. We don't do those sort of things any more IMHO.


15th Sep 2003, 06:30
Concorde? I remember it well, Lovely looking aeroplane, still looked good 30 years after it was designed. However, whats all the fuss about? It's just another aeroplane, there are examples left in museums for our offspring to marvel at... If the people who currently pay for it (BA and AFR) decide it's not to fly, then so be it! And lets face it, although it was rumoured to have been paid for by UK and French taxpayers, since when have taxpayers ever had the right to demand things from the UK Government? If that were the case, I'd be flying a Hawk around with the Red Arrows, getting MY share of MY tax contribution!

Please, not another "Lets get the Vulcan flying again for air displays" :{


15th Sep 2003, 21:34
Zlin: Of course you are entitled to your opinion...perhaps Concorde doesn't have quite the same effect on you as it does many people.

Frankly, I think it's pathetic that an international 20th century icon should just fade away. Static museum aircraft are important but rather sad in my opinion. If money is the reason not even one Concorde can be kept airworthy, I'm surprised - as contributions from Airbus, BA, Air France, Virgin and the great general public would, I'd have thought, been enough.


a) Concorde is a show-stopping aircraft not just in the UK. Not even just at air-shows, wherever it flies, the public stop and look. What a fantastic advertising opportunity.

b) I'm sure some Airbus engineers both sides of the channel would work for free, in their own time, to be part of a historic Concorde team.

Which leaves the 'admin' and manufacturing costs of keeping an aircraft flying. The other grounded Concordes could provide lots of spares but OK, I'm sure it still adds up to a lot of money...

I do not understand why Airbus have taken the attitude they have (if you believe what The Times reported). I'm sure it's expensive to maintain a Concorde but put a price on it and let a commercial company (or charity) see if they can raise the funds rather than a straight 'No'.

Anyone from Airbus like to comment - pro or anti?

Martin - Bristol, UK.

16th Sep 2003, 16:19
Its the FROGS , they have even now stopped Uncle Tony sending troops to win his election, sorry, to keep law and order in Iraq ;)

9th Oct 2003, 23:59
Have just seen an excellent and dispassionate documentary on Discovery Channel about the tragic AF Concorde accident; it appears to back up all my previous comments:

Incorrect maintenance
Excessively aft CG
Above MTOW
Above RTOW for RW26 with a W?V of 090/8
Rotation at 15 KIAS below correct Vr
Uncommanded engine shut down

However, once airborne, they did the best they could.


..and that's all I have to say about that.

Lump Jockey
10th Oct 2003, 03:27
Hello all, just wondering if anyone knows which rwy the 3 Concordes are supposed to be coming back in on, the 24th Oct. I say 3, as the VIP flight around the Bay, the EDI UK tour flight and BAW002 are all due in at, or will be sequenced for a 1530/1600 landing. Also rumoured is the Red Arrows doing a formation flypast together with one of them; question is which one? Anyway, I've read that 27L will be in use then, winds permitting of course. But have also read 2 Concs will land simultaneously on both rwys???? Anyone please clear this one up for me?

Colonel Klink
10th Oct 2003, 04:08
Better be early or you won't be able to see it! The papers today suggest a lot of people turning up to see the last landings, what a pity!!

10th Oct 2003, 04:46
From scouring the some spotter sites, the reasonably credible info appears to be:

The three outbounds that day - EDI british tour return, Bay of Biscay VIP jolly, and final 'scheduled' (again VIP) Speedbird 2 from JFK are planned to land sequentially into the North runway (This will be regardless of conditions, so 27R most likely, or 09L if it's blowing the other way), BA002 being the last. (Though I'd guess the vaguearies sp? of fuel and other traffic might upset this sequencing.)

The aircraft will be towed across "the road" into the maintenance area (rather than heading for T4), for a photoshoot made up with at least the other 2 flyable ones to make 5, but perhaps the other 2 aswell. Followed by a reception in Concorde main hangar.

BAA are apparently working on plans to accomodate the inevitably large-ish crowds (if it was a weekend, then just think) of joe/you/me/public and will announce arrangements 'shortly'.

The above is gleaned from www.concordesst.com. If yiu are interested, dig out the news article about their member 'jetinder'. A very heartwarming story in relation to Concorde, and one that the BBC are expected to run as part of the final day coverage.

There are various rumours about formations, Red arrows, etc etc but these appear to be merely wishful thinking. Clearly there wouldn't be any 'formations' with passengers, and the Reds are apparently in Lyon on the day.

Nonetheless it sounds like it's going to be big one on the 24th, at least in sentiment, if not with the full 'fireworks'.

:confused: :uhoh: :( :{

[edit for clarity about runways, grammar, spelling, and just about everything else]

10th Oct 2003, 10:55
It is so sad to see an end of an era. At the end of August when we were in the coach on the way to our aircraft I saw the Concorde taking off from Heathrow. After spending another hour doing our checks and then getting airborne we made our way towards Barbados. Four hours into an eight hour flight we spotted a contrail on a reciprical course to ours but well above the FL 350 we were at, it was Concorde, on its way back from Barbados on its last trip on that route prior to retirement. My FO gave them a call on VHF and we wished them well on the last SST service from the Caribbean. I've always thought technology goes forward but in this case we've gone from a Ferrari to an Escort. My 340 could never be in the class of the Concorde.


10th Oct 2003, 16:27
Surely their last flight will be into one of the museums they are delivered to.

10th Oct 2003, 17:09
Fly - yes, but think of this as the official end. Scheduled, carrying passengers, and a big 'goodbye' climax. :(

Shaggy Sheep Driver
10th Oct 2003, 19:09
So maybe the actual, very last, flight will be transatlantic on 100th anniversary of Wright Bros, with a Conc delivered to US for their museum?


Captain Airclues
10th Oct 2003, 19:34
Wouldn't it be ironic if the last flight ever were to be on the 17th December? (To Washington via Kittyhawk?)


Jordan D
10th Oct 2003, 23:24
Am looking forward to being at EDI next week to see the bird make its last UK departure


10th Oct 2003, 23:48
Does America deserve a Concorde for preservation!??

After all it was their politically vocal outbursts at the noise and pollution of Conc in the early 70s (lets face it - it was pure jealousy!!) that was instrumental in its failure as a money making success across the pond and the states!

Yah booh suck America!!

10th Oct 2003, 23:56
Apparent BAA release, thanks to 'rainbow' on www.concordesst.com

"As you know, Friday 24 October is the last day for commercial flights of Concorde. We fully appreciate the interest that this event creates for aviation enthusiasts.

That day also falls in the school holiday period, and as such it is already expected to be one of the busiest days of the year at Heathrow.

I know you'll appreciate that our primary duty must be to ensure that those passengers travelling in and out of Heathrow on that day can do so without their trips being threatened.

We are strongly advising members of the public not to come to the airport on that day, but we are making some limited viewing facilities available for enthusiasts on the north side of the airport, where Concorde's movements will be concentrated.

Our advice to enthusiasts is:

- There will be no special parking arrangements available at the airport, and existing car parks will be reserved for passengers only. Therefore for those who do wish to come to the airport, they are strongly advised to come by public transport (Piccadilly Line, Heathrow Express and local bus routes).

- Some limited grandstand facility is planned for Friday 24th
October in front of the Visitor Centre between the A4 and the Northern Perimeter Road.

- There will be no vantage points for spectators within the central terminal area ? the spectators' viewing area remains closed on DfT advice, and car park roofs will not be open to spectators. Anyone using the central terminal area as a vantage point will be moved on by the Police.

- The Police will be actively managing the roads around the
perimeter of the airport and so you are strongly advised to avoid illegal parking.

We want you to be able to watch Concorde's last flight in a safe and enjoyable way, so please help us to minimise traffic and disruption by working with us along these lines, and share this information with other enthusiasts.

We have had to implement traffic and other limitations to ensure public safety: your support in this will be invaluable.

Thanks very much in advance - we hope you enjoy watching the last flight."

Nogbad the Bad
11th Oct 2003, 00:21
That about sums BAA up - as unhelpful towards those that are interested in aviation as ever !

GOD they really do make me absolutely sick with their attitude towards the aviation enthusiast !

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Lump Jockey
11th Oct 2003, 03:20
OK then, thanks for the replies, basically everything I've already read myself. Your thoughts are shared with millions I guess, including myself. I will absolutely 100% be there for this momentous occasion, as sad as it may be........ Hope the weather holds out for her/them/us/me! Good luck to all those coming to see her home, glad she's returning to base. Those not already been able to witness this, make sure you come along, and be prepared for SPEED!!!! She's SO SO fast, both on landing and T/O.

11th Oct 2003, 07:44
Nogbad - I'm not a 'spotter' but over the last few weeks my interest in Concorde has led me to sites I wouldn't normally bother with. What has consistently come across is that these people are actually quite aligned with the authorities. There's no anti airport authority/police sentiment I've seen - they just want to watch aircraft within whatever the rules are.

So, not sure you're speaking on their behalf.

Sure, BAA could have done all sorts for the last day, but as long as they aren't turning people away, then that's not so bad - sentiment aside they have a legit pressure which is running the airport. And I bet there's more than a few BAA management that wish it wasn't so, if only for that day... just imagine; being able to turn over EGLL exclusively for the event. :{

11th Oct 2003, 16:58

7 ship fly past with run in and break off for landing.

Oh i wish this could happen, but alas we're only going to get a landing (maybe a planned sneaky go-around! hoping)

11th Oct 2003, 18:58
For anyone not around LHR, dont forget shes doing a final "tour" during that week.

I have times for Birmingham on Monday 20 October-

Arr 11.40 L, Depart 16.05L

She will be parked on the"old" side of the airport during the stay.

BA web site has more details , although I had to ring BHX PR direct for times.

11th Oct 2003, 19:22
For those who are not going down to Heathrow on the 24th:

Concorde's Final Bow, BBC2, 15:45 - 16:15 will be covering the event live.

Additionally, the week before:

Timewatch Concorde Special - Oct 19th


SAT. OCTOBER 19TH 2003 BBC2 8.00 PM

Concorde – A Love Story tells the remarkable story of the life of the world’s only supersonic passenger jet.

A landmark documentary commissioned by the BBC’s flagship history series Timewatch, the broadcast will coincide with the retirement of the plane from the British Airways fleet this October after 27 years in service.

The film takes us through the aircraft's origins, development and birth, exploring the debates within and between the British and French governments as well as the story of its construction and first flight.

Through interviews with the key players who were crucial to the development of the story, we explore what Concorde has meant to Britain as a symbol of technological progress, of European prestige and as a cultural icon, while the touching recollections of designers, crew and passengers reveal the place that Concorde occupies in the public imagination not just in Britain, but around the world.

Concorde flies at twice the speed of sound - faster than a rifle bullet. It cruises at 11 miles high and makes the trip to NY in just over 3 hours. It has been likened to a modern time machine, able to get passengers to New York two hours before they left London.

The Russians built a supersonic passenger jet, but it crashed. The Americans tried to build one but got no further than an expensive wooden mock up. Britain and France's unmatched success was an achievement that many have compared to the American moon landings.

Featured interviews include those with former pilots including Brian Calvert and Jock Lowe. Other first hand accounts in the UK include Lord Heseltine, whose job it was to sell Concorde, Sir David Frost, with over 400 flights to his name one of the most frequent flyers, film director and general Concorde fan Michael Winner, and JJ Burnel of the Stranglers who once penned a song protesting against the plane's American opponents. Ken Binning and Christopher Banjamin, civil servants formerly in charge of Concorde, tell the inside political story of its development, while Jospehine and Sarah Wiggs, whose father Richard founded the Anti-Concorde project, put the case for the plane's economic and environmental opponents.

U.S. interviewees include frequent flyer Dr. Henry Kissinger (former Secretary of State), supersonic opponent Robert MacNamara (former Defence Secretary under President Kennedy) and William T Coleman Jr, (Former Secretary of Transportation) whose landmark decision allowed Concorde to fly London to New York, the crucial route for which it was principally designed.

In France our contributors include former Air France Chief Concorde pilot Edouard Chemel, as well as the first man to fly Concorde, former French test pilot André Turcat.

[Edited: Revised schedule, moved from the 18th to Sunday 19th]

11th Oct 2003, 20:21
BAA really does stink doesn't?

Words cant describe these bunch of idiots. I'm tempted to get in my car and park on the A4 for a view!

11th Oct 2003, 20:46
There are rumours that 3 of the 5 airworthy jets are going overseas for preservation. Manchester and Filton will each get an example, whilst jets will retire to Barbados, New York (on the USS Inteprid!) and Seattle respectively.

This news was posted on the Concordesst.com forum.


Lump Jockey
11th Oct 2003, 22:06
LHR Term 5 is getting one too.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
11th Oct 2003, 22:12
Have any been allocated yet? Anyone know where G-BOAD (very fond memories!) is going to end up?


Flying Lawyer
12th Oct 2003, 01:39
I thought my fellow Concorde lovers might be interested in seeing these videos of the last Air France Concorde departure from JFK which an American friend sent me. They're in the public domain but I don't think they've been posted on Pprune before.

The first two were filmed from the roof of the JFK Tower, with tower-aircraft audio.
The third was filmed from the side of the runway.
They are big files, but very good quality. If you're on dialup connection, you may want to download them.

Tri-colour 'Water Salute' from the Port Authority Police, and taxi from the stand.

Position and hold, goodbyes, takeoff, controller from top of tower, shots of the controllers who worked the flight.

From the Runway -- Aviation photographer Carlos Borda was on the side of the runway when AFR001 took off... http://www.daveschoen.com/carlosbordalastconc53103.mpg (Sound is poor.)

Mini-sampler to whet the appetite ..... http://www.jfktower.com/jfktwr/images/avatars/8d9dd9ad3ed987071a6f4.gif

Tudor Owen

These are of AF. Hopefully there'll be even better videos of the last BA departure.

12th Oct 2003, 05:40
FL ... thought you might like to see the following photo .... this was Alpha Fox doing "Touch and Goes" in SNN August 2001 ..... even the local Golden retriever turned out to see her .... lol


we will certainly miss Concorde in Shannon ....

cheers .... hobie ....

12th Oct 2003, 05:56
Have any been allocated yet? Anyone know where G-BOAD (very fond memories!) is going to end up?

Nothing confirmed as yet, but G-BOAF has apparently been lined up for preservation at Filton.

G-BOAA and 'AB are not airworthy so I presume one of these will go on display at Heathrow.

HTH, Mark

12th Oct 2003, 07:56
Tonight I joined up with people from www.concordesst.com for the delayed outbound... ber-limey. If you've not seen it take off, esp. at night, you need to. Gobsmacking. :ok:

Full report tomorrow when I'm sober. :p

Flying Lawyer
12th Oct 2003, 15:26
I've posted some videos of the last Air France Concorde departing JFK
here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=105181&referrerid=18293)

Two videos taken by ATC from the JFK Tower, and one from the side of the runway - very close!

Flying Lawyer
12th Oct 2003, 16:04
ABC News Report Concorde Sets New London-To-U.S. Record

BOSTON Oct. 8 — One of the Concorde's last flights was also its fastest.
The British Airways supersonic jetliner landed in Boston Wednesday in a record London-to-U.S. time of three hours, five minutes and 34 seconds, according to airline spokesman Jeff Angel.

The old record of three hours and nine minutes was set in 1974 on a flight from Paris to Boston.

http://a.abcnews.com/images/autowirestory/AP/MARK10310090003.jpeg Captain Michael Bannister, Chief Concorde Pilot for British Airways waves after the Concorde landed in Boston. (AP Photo/Robert E. Klein)

The Concorde is visiting Boston as part of its North American farewell tour, which includes stops in Washington and Toronto.

The fleet is being taken out of service because of rising costs. The aircraft's last trans-Atlantic flight is Oct. 24.

The Concorde makes the London-to-Boston trip nearly two hours quicker than a traditional jet aircraft. It travels at 60,000 feet at more than 1,300 mph, twice the speed of sound.

(Thanks for the pic Hobie. That's a special one for you to look back on in years to come.)

12th Oct 2003, 17:52
Have any been allocated yet?

From 'sst1' on the ConcordeSST forums:

well how about these as the final resting place
1.OAD 27th oct to new york.
2. OAC 31st oct to manchester
3.OAE/G 3rd nov to seatle
4.OAE/G 10th nov to barbados
5.OAF 17th nov to filton.

these are pretty acurate and i belive that mike bannister will be flying them .items 3. and 4. could be either OAE or OAG depending on servicability at the time.

The NY one is for the USS Intrepid museum, which is not exactly famed for the good condition of its aircraft exhibits.

Can't say I'm impressed if the list is accurate. 3 departing the UK?? What about Cosford with its BA airliner collection?

12th Oct 2003, 18:01
So, on 24 Oct 2003, Britain will cease to be 'Great' any longer. The only asset which raised ba above the rest will no longer fly in revenue service.

Rising costs? Not the sole reason - and one that could probably have been addressed, had they had sufficient interest. Instead, it was used as an excuse, no doubt much to the convenience of Air France. The real cause? Spineless managers with no vision, pride or any idea of what is meant by an 'intangible asset' and accountants with no interest in life other than in their bottom line. The Sunday Times estimates that ba (sorry, no longer BA) will make £250 000 from each of Concorde's last flights. Perhaps if ba had got off its overstuffed corporate backside and marketed the aircraft's uniqueness more positively, she would have flown on to her real end-of-lifetime date.

Sadly, on 24 Oct ba will kill off the only thing which anyone could ever admire them for. They now have nothing to mark them out from any other airline - apart from the lingering stink of the King/Marshall 'Dirty Tricks' era.....

I'm glad that 'Trubby' never knew what the spineless bean counters at ba finally did to his magnificent aeroplane.

vintage ATCO
12th Oct 2003, 18:08
I think this has been aired before . . . Even if (a big IF) BA wanted to keep Concorde flying wouldn't the lack of support from Airbus (the design authority) have scuppered it anyway?

A crying shame.


12th Oct 2003, 18:31
Many thanks Flying Lawyer for sharing those images.

12th Oct 2003, 18:31
After the totally avoidable AF Concorde accident, AF really wanted rid of Concorde. As last week's Discovery documentary identified, AF's practices never were fully exposed in a report which conveniently bruhed them aside.... Hence the 'lack of support' from AI for Concorde was extremely convenient for the French - allowing them an excuse to kill off the Concorde with undignified haste.

Had the French had sufficient interest in continuing to fly Concorde, do you really think that Airbus wouldn't have had to rethink their level of support?

This whole affair is utterly shameful.

12th Oct 2003, 19:09
Flying Lawyer,

Thanks so much for the wonderful videos - truely an amazing aircraft!!

13th Oct 2003, 06:46
More speculation about the final day. This is one of a number of similar stories apparently based on a PA release. The numbers sound a bit wild - the lower end of the prediction is about 10,000 spectators.


13th Oct 2003, 17:17
Agree with most about the pathetic handling of the demise of the great lady.

Lets not forget that Concorde is a national treasure - an institution almost, funded by hard earned tax payers' money from the first scribble in a BAC design office to the timeless majestic beauty of the skies that she is now and could be for at least another decade!In my book if you part pay for something you part own it ! Ba and baa deserve all the criticism they get for not laying on a "bit of a do" for the final landings. Sod the disruption - this is a national day of mourning!!If well wishers who have contributed so much to the whole programme want to see this spectacle then they (we) deserve to be able to and welcomed with open arms. Its just so British - forget the well wishers and enthusiasts but lay out the red carpet for a pathetic bunch of fat cats and "celebrities" with no interest except to be "part of the scene"

And as for the final destinations!?Good Grief! As I said in a previous thread America dos'nt deserve one at all but 3!!?? Seattle for God's sake why?, Barbados - OK a connection but who will get to see it? NY - the only place that accepted Conc daily and there gonna put her on an old aircraft carrier! Manchester -sorry guys but we all know that preserved aircraft on airports soon get forgotten about 'cos no-one can see them and they soon hamper expansion plans (Trident at LHR ring any bells?) - Should prove to be an interesting fire trainer for the local crews.
Absolutely Damien B - Cosford definitely deserves one with its unique ba line up and at least it will get looked after properly.Also thousands of its BRITISH (sometimes unwilling?) financial supporters can see it and admire it for years to come.How about one at Fairford?? - Years of research flying done from here, plus hundreds of thousands of enthusiasts would get to see it at the annual Air Tattoo! (How about keeping it airworthy from here for "pleasure flights" to support the RAF Benevolent fund!!)

The whole sorry mess stinks - another colossal cock up by a bunch of pin headed beurocrats too interested in their own self preservation. Give 'em to Branson! God knows they and the country deserve it!!

13th Oct 2003, 17:35
As an employee of the great company many of us here will be glad to see the back of it and then we can concentrate on getting on with geting back to high level profitability without the albatross.RIP

13th Oct 2003, 19:23
The way BRITISH AIRWAYS are handling this is disgraceful. Even their "Farewell Tour" is simply an exercise to pander to the show-biz and political nobs - while the REAL fans are shut-out as if an unwanted nuisance.

Have looked into the FAREWELL TOUR visit to Birmingham on the 20th - the aircraft will land, and taxi directly to a hospitality suite in a far corner of the airport, where the public cannot even see her!

When I asked about the possibility of entry to the hospitality suite, BA told me that "sorry - it's by invite only, and only VIP's are invited"!!!

As a result, I, and my family, have vowed never to fly with BA again. (and that will cost them around 30 return business flights to Europe a year)

And as for those useless lazy good for nothing managers at Cosford Museum - they have made it quite clear that they don't WANT a Concorde there because "we haven't got room".

I give in...

13th Oct 2003, 20:32
Why no Exeter or Bournemouth on the UK tour? :hmm:

13th Oct 2003, 21:20
"As a result, I, and my family, have vowed never to fly with BA again. (and that will cost them around 30 return business flights to Europe a year)"

- nor will I ever fly ba. In fact I instruct the people who book my flights "Never book me on ba". It was bad enough when Marshall and King and others tried to kill Virgin, then there was that idiot who painted graffiti on the tails. Ailing Bob. But ba's behaviour over Concorde is the last straw.

ba, already you're no longer the national flag carrier; soon you'll have nothing special to offer and will have to compete with others for our custom. If you go down the pan as a result, few will shed many tears.

13th Oct 2003, 21:59
BBC1 (London Area): 7:30 PM tonight.

"Jetinder Sira first saw concorde take off when he was 7 years old - 27 years later he is crestfallen that the old girl is to be scrapped. Inside Out went with him on one of his last visits to see her."

13th Oct 2003, 22:47
Should be well worth watching particularly for the heart warming aspect, I won't spoil the surprise for those who don't know about it already, just watch it.

14th Oct 2003, 00:01
I'm still very surprised that the BBC haven't dragged out the old documentary about Concorde with Noel Edmunds presenting. It was a very unique and enlightening program with fantastic internal and external video shots. Now that would be worth seeing again.

BA:mad: :mad: :mad:

BAA:* :* :confused: :eek: :yuk: :yuk:

Fifty year LHR anniversary, and a huge flypast, several aircraft past and present, 30 minute area disruption, bloody good show. BAA can't be seen to disrupt LHR again, especially seeing as though it's not them who'll get the publicity.

Why are we giving our national pride to the USA, no, firmly and bloody well no again. Keep all the aircraft here where they will be appreciated and kept pristine, instead of rotting in some lost backwater museum. Giving one to seattle, seems to kick back to Boeings SST, here guys have one of ours and see if you can do it right this time. Barbados, can't fathom that one out. USS whatsitsname, some where no one goes anymore, can't figure that one out either.

Rant over

Sorry if I offended anyone, but then a piece of history is being written on the 24th. The history of british aviation once again goes stateside. (Whittle + jet engine) for example.

14th Oct 2003, 05:22
You can't hang onto the good times. Enjoy them, savour them, then let them go gracefully. If it hadn't stopped now, it would have stopped in a few years. It was never going to be around forever and it's had a good innings, so what's the difference?

I'm sure they wept the same kind of tears about the Zeppelins, but the reality is that even before the Lakenhurst disaster the cost of a passenger seat mile meant their days were severely numbered and if Concorde didn't suffer from the same sort of problem we wouldn't be having this discussion now. Blame whoever you like -- the French, the Americans -- but it's a hard capitalist world out there and Concorde doesn't cut it.

Sad, but self-evident.


14th Oct 2003, 06:11
In all the farewells we should not overlook the enthusiastic support given to BA and Concorde by the Ruler and State of Bahrein when the USA first banned it. With nowhere to go (AF had RIO), Bahrein ( and later of course Singapore) welcomed it with open arms and made BAs simultaneous introduction with AF possible.

14th Oct 2003, 10:00
Whilst everyone on this post has voiced their national pride in the brilliant piece of 1950’s inspiration and 1960’s technology that Concorde represents, can we just stop and put our emotions to one side.
If, in 1969 you went out and purchased an e-type Jag to drive, say, 5 days a week, flat out, London – Manchester return and, say every weekend that car spent its time in the garage being serviced you would probably have a very nice e-type, but you might be wondering what’s lurking in those unseen places after all these years and have reached the conclusion that it was time you bought something a bit younger.
With cars, you can buy the equivalent, with Concorde you can’t, but some engineers with experience of the aircraft would probably say it’s time for the old lady to retire.
I myself, am a little surprised that one is not going to either Farnborough, Cranfield or NASA, to be stripped down completely to see if there’s anything we’ve missed about the effect of supersonic flight on airframes after its many years in service.
Sad to see her go and sadder that we will not see another to replace her for 30 years.:{

Charley B
14th Oct 2003, 15:26
Flying Lawyer

Thanks a lot for sharing those ,they were great.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
14th Oct 2003, 18:51
So only 2 of the fleet will retire in UK? What in heck is happening? Only 2/5 of the fleet staying here.

And Barbados? - that's absurd. It may have been a destination, but how many people will bother to see it there? Wouldn't it have been better to give it to Duxford or Cosford?

My beloved AD will rot on an old aircraft carrier in New York. But at lest there will be one at Manch only a few miles form where I live.


14th Oct 2003, 20:45
Don't forget the withdrawn G-BOAA and G-BOAB stored at Heathrow. They'll have to be retired to a UK Museum as they won't fly again. Unless of course, they await the cutters torch? :confused: :eek:

14th Oct 2003, 20:47
"The NY one is for the USS Intrepid museum"

Cor, that should be some landing...! :ok:

Joking aside, I've nothing else to add that hasn't already been said. The whole episode has been nothing short of shameful. THE single most globally recognisable icon of the late twentieth century has been allowed to die almost unnoticed.

BA can go to hell. :mad:

15th Oct 2003, 00:04
"They suggested that Qinetiq could take over responsibility for design authority"

They could not even launch a balloon envelope!

15th Oct 2003, 01:54
Original Article (http://www.news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2050734)

By Helen William, PA News

Concorde enthusiasts were warned today not turn up at Heathrow for the supersonic jet’s final flight.

The Metropolitan Police and BAA Heathrow are “strongly” advising members of the public to stay away because the west London airport “just hasn’t got the space,” a spokesman said.

In order to ward off the thousands who were expected to turn up for Concorde’s last commercial flight on October 24, the spokesman said: “We fully appreciate the interest that this event creates for the general public but being the world’s busiest international airport, Heathrow just hasn’t got the space to accommodate extra visitors and their cars.”

The flight coincides with many school half-term holidays and is expected to be one of the airports busiest days of the year.

A joint statement warned: “There are only very limited viewing facilities on the north side of the airport and the general public should not expect to be accommodated by turning up on the day.”

There will be no vantage points for spectators within the central terminal area. Anyone using this area as a look out will be moved on by police who will also be watching out for people parking illegally.

The spectators’ viewing area remains closed on Department for Transport advice, as will the car park roofs.

There will be no special parking arrangements available and existing car parks are already heavily used.

BAA Heathrow are looking at implementing traffic and other limitations to ensure public safety.

15th Oct 2003, 05:25
Let me just make sure I've got this right. As a farewell finale, BA are arranging for three Concordes to arrive at Heathrow in quick succession, naturally generating a huge amount of public interest.

However, the BAA admit that LHR is a totally unsuitable venue for handling large numbers of visiting well-wishers, and ask them to stay away!!!

The words "relations", "public", "up" and "cock" spring to mind!! :(

15th Oct 2003, 15:51
DamienB, I have been given a date of November 4th for G-BOAF arriving at Filton.
Does Filton not already have one non airworthy Concorde in storage?

15th Oct 2003, 16:37
G-BBDG is at Filton with no nose [how does it smell? Awful] and a dodgy-looking landing gear having been cannibalised by BA.




15th Oct 2003, 19:34
Nov 17th is the provisional date for G-BOAF's arrival at Filton.

16th Oct 2003, 03:17
There's a rather nice video on Reuters/yahoo of Concorde's final landing at Dulles today. Nice and damp so there's lots of condensation streaming off the wings. Beautiful.

Anyone else getting that sinking feeling in the pit of the stomach as the inevitable day draws near? Feels a bit like a much loved relative has been given the last rites.

16th Oct 2003, 05:39
Yep - very few opportunities left to see this sort of thing now...


16th Oct 2003, 06:14
I know I shouldn't ask this, but anyone have a capture of the Reuters footage?

I filmed the departure at LHR and it would be a nice momento to add to the tape.

I know it goes against the rules, but....

16th Oct 2003, 07:07
Public grandstand seat tickets for the 24th will be issued by ballot.

16th Oct 2003, 15:49
sickBocks, gordonroxburgh, Thanks for the info. Need to change the day I booked off now!

16th Oct 2003, 17:56
BBC2 business show 'Working Lunch' starts a series of Concorde specials at 12:30BST today. I think they continue daily until next Friday 24th October; finishing with coverage of the final 3 landings at LHR.

0918 :(

17th Oct 2003, 05:36
Confirmed tonight on BBC Points West news that Concorde will be comming home to Filton on 17th Nov.
Further details will be made available on the BA website when a contract has been signed.

17th Oct 2003, 17:57
The BBC radio 4 play at 1415hrs today is a story about Filton housewifes waiting for Concordes first flight. BA has not behavioured in any particular manner as we have been accused of we have done our best to satisfy a number of locations on a limited budget. I havce to concede that sadly it only involves the 'great and the good' vast numbers creasy palms that have contributed so much to aviation. i do not recall all this fuss a few years ago when the dear old 'Viscount ' was retired.

18th Oct 2003, 01:40
A really nice touch on Working Lunch yesterday when one of the original Concorde design team engineers, an elderly lady whose name I forget, was given a ticket for one of the last flights. She had never flown on it and everyone, even the tv presenter chap was in tears.....:{
Well done BBC, this is the sort of thing I do not mind paying my tv licence for.

18th Oct 2003, 04:53
It would have been nice in the 100th year of powered flight for both the US and UK to have had a Concorde and SR-71 flypast over Kittyhawk in December; from the earliest record to the fastest military and civilian aircraft.
For you anoraks- yes I know the X-15 was faster,but didn`t get airborne under it`s own steam!...:ok:

18th Oct 2003, 16:01
Funny old thing - there's an old 'Dr Who' on UK Gold right now. In the edition being shown, Concorde is featured extensively. "Finest aeroplane ever made" said 'Capt Stapley', one of the actors (Richard Easton).....

Date of the programme? 1982. And next week, 21 years later, ba will travel back in time to the days of non-supersonic air transport when they kill off the 'finest aeroplane ever made':mad:

Rhys S. Negative
19th Oct 2003, 07:04
Just before departure from Heathrow this evening, Speedbird Concorde One transmitted on 118.5:

"Thanks to all the enthusiasts who've come to see us for their support - I'm sure some of them have airband radios."

The pleasure was ours.

20th Oct 2003, 01:42
I can understand the economics that has led Airbus Industrie to stop supporting the Anglo-French Concorde and therefore to the demise of this aged but brilliant SST. On the other hand, I feel like a part of aviation is dying. This final week of Concorde service is the last week of looking-forward aviation - when aviation was about breaking boundaries, going faster, higher, further ... we are now, in the 21st century, doomed to a mundane, plebiean and trogolodyte existence of bean-counting aviation. A lucky few still get to sit "up front" and do the job, the rest of us will be mere drones in the great maw of industy .. we probably always were but at least once in a while we could look skywards, espy Concorde and realise that man and aviation could and did aspire to something better ... this will be no more from next Friday.

I will, I imagine, not be alone in my sorrow to see this feat of engineering "fold her wings" for the last time.

The world of aviation will truly be a sadder and less bold place without this delta-winged beauty. I am glad to own a couple of wee souvenirs (courtesy of Ebay) - I never did get to fly on her and now ... never will :{

20th Oct 2003, 06:40
Speedbird One Crew, Saturday 18 Oct

As Rhys S. Negative has reported, after reading back their take-off clearance, the crew of 001 paid tribute to those who had come to same goodbye.

This was grately appreciated by the several hundred people gathered gathered in the chilly evening air near Hatton Cross to watch her depart, when it was relayed to them by those with radios -- most didn't seem to have scanners or be "aviation enthusiasts", they seemed to be members of the great British public, who simpley wanted to be part, however small, of this triumph of British engineering/aviation.

This sight -- and sound :) -- of four Olympuses (Olympi ?) on reheat disappearing into the darkening sky is one that will remain with me for a long time...

If anybody reading this is in contact with the crew, please let them know that their gesture was greatly appreciated by those present.


20th Oct 2003, 09:41
It would seem that one of the best places to be at LHR is the Pink Elephant car park. Pay for half a day's parking and get a ringside seat. Get there early with plenty of sarnies and a large thermos!

I was in the area on Sunday evening and saw 0002 arrive (beautifully) at the western extremity of the park and then went down the eastern end to wait for 0001's departure. Superb, shatteringly good as it was already dark and the reheat and the noise was magnificent.

Having enjoyed the ride from the inside in August, I wanted to remind myself of what it was like on the outside!! :ok:

21st Oct 2003, 20:48
And credit to Birmingham Airport for handling the day really well. I was impressed by their efforts to make good views and access possible. Rather a contrast to LHR methinks...

22nd Oct 2003, 01:59
Attended the wake today at Aldergrove to see off the queen of the skies and heartened to hear Capt Mike Bannister state on BBC Radio Ulster that BA have a work study group looking into the possibility of keeping one airborne. This go`s against all previous reporting but heres fingers crossed.

Respect:ok: RIP

22nd Oct 2003, 03:43
I'm feeling a little peaky and thought, rather than risk making everyone at work sick, I ought to stay away. And, not wanting to waste away in bed, I thought a little trip to LHR to see the beautiful bird might be good for me.
Erm... but I can't find the timetable, and PW is having trouble getting through on the phone. :O
Can anyone tell us what time she takes off and lands? And some ideas as to good viewing positions?
Thank you!!

22nd Oct 2003, 04:08
I'm a local and I know the area like the back of my hand - and I won't bother.

Traffic will be total chaos from Chiswick to Windsor and from Staines to Hayes. The police have yto keep the airport open and will be merciless about parking and stopping.

The security screens stop any view from the perimiter road, even if you can get on it.

I saw the first departure to Bahrain in 1976, but this one will be too much hassle.

22nd Oct 2003, 05:47
Time for some piccies then!


Fantastic party atmosphere down in the country park - cheers and applause as she began to go down the runway, soon drowned out by the engine noise, and then as the roar died away nothing but silence from thousands of people just quietly watching her curve round and disappear into the distance.

22nd Oct 2003, 06:01
Aerbabe - parking is going to be tricky if tonight's chaos is anything to judge by - hundreds of cars parked by the side of the A3044, or even on it, to watch the 7PM departure tonight. Someone will get hurt if it gets any more chaotic.

Tomorrow there is a flight at around 10AM to Manchester, returning around 17:45 along with one from JFK. If winds and runways in use are the same as today, that'll be two landing over Hatton Cross tube station, and one departing over the A3044 at the western end. Parking at Hatton Cross is limited - best to park somewhere along Hatton Road, other side of the A30, and walk/cycle back to the playing field at the end of Myrtle Avenue.

For the A3044 end, most park on the verge/central reservation but it is getting VERY busy there now and quite chaotic. Perhaps better to turn left off the A3044 onto Bath Road and park in Poyle somewhere. Walk/cycle back along Bath Road to get back to the perimeter (or watch from the bridge over the M25).

Thursday again has a 1000 departure, coming back at 1745 ish, and the last 1830 departure to JFK - the last chance to see her go in darkness possibly, well worth watching!

Friday has a 1000 departure, a 1425 departure, and both those coming back along with Thursday's JFK flight around 1600. To watch the landing, either the A3044 spot already mentioned or keep cycling to the other end of the airport (by Parking Express car park - you could always park there and cough up 13.50 for the privilege, just don't expect to be able to stay in your car and get there early).

Got to stress this assumes same runways in use as today.

Departure times - add 10-30 minutes for pushback, taxi etc. to get takeoff time.

Also go to www.concordesst.com particularly the forums - help galore there, and other spots to view from to be found on the main site (choose Concorde Retires|Viewing Concorde).

22nd Oct 2003, 15:57
Excellent piccies, Damian

22nd Oct 2003, 20:45
Cracking info Damien, thanks mate.


23rd Oct 2003, 04:45
The turn out to see her go was remarkable


23rd Oct 2003, 04:55
Great pictures as always Damien.

23rd Oct 2003, 05:53
Yup, thanks Damien - we'll let you know how we get on!
:O ;)

Red Spitfire Driver
23rd Oct 2003, 05:59
For a full timetable and info on Fridays event - see my post (5minutes ago) on Rumours and News - page 8 or 9 by now.


Feather #3
23rd Oct 2003, 06:08
Some days, not carrying a camera on the flightdeck can be a sad loss.

Last winter with LHR still covered with a light dusting of snow [a couple of days after the closure fiasco], we were waiting in the queue close to departure 27R. Concorde gets a fast-track takeoff on the landing runway [no objections, BTW:) ], so she whistled past us and away.

Our rear-view was progressively obscured [and hearing lost!] in blown snow as she accelerated down the runway, then a massive vortex either side of the runway on rotate [not that we could see the a/c.] Suddenly, zooming out of this scene a fast climbing and disappearing white bird.

No camera, but as our elder son says,"Dad, sometimes you just have to live the moment!"

G'day ;)

23rd Oct 2003, 16:18
Crap weather but never mind eh, some lovely vapour off the wings on the approach (which sadly doesn't show up very well in the photos), and plenty of opportunities for photos albeit in rather murky light.


23rd Oct 2003, 18:31
Excellent photos, as usual. How does he always manage to be in the right place, at the right time? :ok:

Oscar Duece
23rd Oct 2003, 18:42
I know it's only Manchester (joking), but they could have washed it first. That left wing is filthy..

23rd Oct 2003, 22:32
There scrapping it - save on the Autoglym :E

Well done Damien - excellant photos

Jordan D
23rd Oct 2003, 23:48
Beautiful Pics Damian .... I'll see what I can do with respect to departure from EDI tomorrow.


Jordan D
23rd Oct 2003, 23:50
Damien, beautiful photos, coming up to join me at EDI?


24th Oct 2003, 01:42
Thanks again. We arrived at Hatton Cross tube station at about 0930 and there was plenty of parking. We had plenty of time to grab a cup of tea & bag our spot amongst the crowds. It was surprising how few people there were though. Many were stopping their cars on the side of the A30, but the police weren't doing anything about it. I think Concorde finally took off at about 1030, right over our heads. Great stuff. :ok:

Just wish I'd remembered a hat and gloves. :ugh:

24th Oct 2003, 05:50
Thanks peeps. No, I'll be at LHR tomorrow. On a rooftop BA tell me, hopefully within range of the runway for pics!!

24th Oct 2003, 05:52
Too dark for reasonable piccies of the aircraft with a normal camera... plus I wanted to watch it with my eyes, not through a viewfinder. So here's a long exposure instead...


Jordan D
24th Oct 2003, 06:36
I think I speak for most people here, Damien, when I say that we are definitely looking forward to seeing the pics.


Jordan D
24th Oct 2003, 06:37
Two words: Simply Stunning.


24th Oct 2003, 06:48
Concorde Lives? I've just been watching 'Question Time' on BBC1 and one of the guests was Richard Branson. Quite rightly the lack of a replacement for Concorde came up as a question for the panel and Richard confirmed he is still lobbying to keep Concorde flying. He sugested that the Heritage minister should intervene 'we're not asking for any money, just to be allowed to return Concorde to it's rightful home at Filton near Bristol and be kept flying for special occassions'.

And do you know what? His comment got the longest, loudest appreciative clap from the very mixed audience, of the whole program.

YES, YES, YES! More power to his elbow.

Martin - Bristol (!) UK

coughing corner
24th Oct 2003, 07:24
So if the beardy weirdy really really really wanted Concordes, why didn't he offer to buy the Air France aircraft?, he could have competed on the same route with the same type!, just a very simple, cheap and clever way to get his brand highlighted and a dig at one of his major competitors!.

So I wonder how much time his boffins spent costing up even the basics of a 'new' type, you know things like the initial spares provisioning, my guess is... not very much.

Windle Poons
24th Oct 2003, 07:42
Great picture, thank you. :ok:

I was extremely lucky to have been hovering just south of 09R when she took off. The send off from T4 with the water jets, blue and red lights and ground handling vehicles was impressive, and the captain's words on 118.5 prior to rolling were stirring stuff. Always a stunning sight, but watching it on thermal image is something else.

We hope to be there tomorrow for the landings. The end of a great era in aviation. :{


Edited for typo.

24th Oct 2003, 13:15
Very emotive pic DB. Wish I could have been there to see it. Hopefully Mrs. LNS will remember to video all the shows as instructed..........

24th Oct 2003, 18:46
What did he say then?

Oscar Duece
24th Oct 2003, 18:55
I saw the QT program as well. I admit I have never been a fan of RB, with his hi-jacking of other peoples efforts fro his own publicity (chay blyth, x-atlantic).
But as ever in serious public interviews he came across as a total ******, barely able to string a sentance together. Made himself look more like a clueless twit than a business leader, for the sake on the company Richard, stay at home.
To quote his finely researched remarks on concorde' we should take the 6 ? flying examples and store them at Filton, solely for display flying for the next 50 or 100 years, I have given up on any commercial plans involving passenger operations'
****** off to nectar Richard and let the real people run the business / aviation world.:*

No comment
24th Oct 2003, 19:39
Not sure of the exact words but his final words before departure were "3.......... 2......... 1........!" Absolutely quality! Try and find a transcript as I cant remember who he dedicated this last flight to.

DamienB, tried to send you a PM, I think I was stood next to you by the A30 in the corner of that field.

Great picture by the way!!! (I dont think my one will come out as it lifted over the perimiter fence...wasn't expecting her to be moving THAT fast!!!!)

tiger burn
24th Oct 2003, 20:11
Can anyoone shed some light on which direction Concorde will be making her / their last approach tonight?

I had hoped to go to LHR & have a peek but my 18 mnth old daughter has got the snuffles & a sore throat so I think it might be best to take my chances & take up our usual vantage point in Hyde Park. We usually get a clear view as she flies over head & conditions today will be fab, that is...er....if they formate over Central London as the Beeb rumoured this morning.

If anyone has any idea, please let me know! Its something my mini pilot has to see!



24th Oct 2003, 20:24
It seems that BA are still trying to put the boot into Concorde on its final day.

On the BBC website report of the flinal takeoff from NY today:

"British Airways chief executive officer Rod Eddington said there was a "mixture of sadness and celebration" about the retirement.

"It is a wonderful plane, an icon, but its time has come. It's an old plane - it doesn't look it - but it was designed in the 50s and built in the 60s," he told BBC One's Breakfast."

Shame he doesn't know his aircraft a bit better. Maybe then we would have had a chance of her flying on, as she should have.

Peter Barron
24th Oct 2003, 20:32
Tiger Burn.

The direction that the wind is at the moment means that they should be coming into land across London and not coming in across Windsor.

Hope this helps.

24th Oct 2003, 20:34
If that was the same field as the Sky News crew, then I was there too :)

Great piccy, BTW

24th Oct 2003, 21:20
Cannot see what all the fuss is about no one bothered when the last VC10 operated and neither did they seem to concerned as one or two of you have mentioned about the demise of the Vulcans.

Those that depart to museums will unless they are stored inside end up in s..t order like so many of our national treasures and we only seem to celebrate there passing.

However Rod is spot on with his comments.

24th Oct 2003, 22:51
A few pics from today's farewell visit:


24th Oct 2003, 23:14
Well, the three Concordes just paraded down the 27 approach into EGLL - number three came right over Croydon with a nice extended downwind into the depths of Kent... our view of them on approach from around Canary Wharf to thr threshold was distant, but almost complete...

Farewell... :{ or is it...? :ok:

Genghis the Engineer
24th Oct 2003, 23:43
I'm afraid that on the basis I had to get some work done today, I watched it on TV - quite a remarkable sight. I do hope that view of one on short finals and a second on long finals behind makes it into a poster - would look very nice on my office wall.

And well done to the BBC interviewer chappie for having the good sense to keep quiet and let Raymond Baxter do an impromtue commentary - he looks a lot older, but I don't think his voice has changed in 30 years.

So, apart from Concorde crews, did anybody in the British aircraft industry do any work this afternoon?


Shaggy Sheep Driver
24th Oct 2003, 23:57
Good ol' John Hutchinson having a dig at the French for wanting to clobber the magnificent beast, and a dig at BA and CAA for allowing them to do it.

I thought he was going to get controversial for a bit then :O


PS Anyone know the regs of the 3 concs ?

25th Oct 2003, 00:15
Hello ,
I am looking for a way to get hold of a Concord Flight manual:confused: Try'ed to get one over ebay, but did not work:mad: Has anybody got an idea or hint were to get one?????
Would be great full for any help!!!!!!!



Sad to see here go:{ :{ :{ :{ :{

tiger burn
25th Oct 2003, 00:58
Thanks Peter- we stood atop the Wellington Arch, babies in tow & Laurent Perrier in hand & had what must have been one of the best views in London as the 3 Concordes came over. They were all out on the balcony at Buckingham Palace too.

A sad but very proud day. I sincerely hope that this is not the end & that supersonic skills will not be wasted.


(grats to pprune admin 1 for getting me back on line in time!)

Jordan D
25th Oct 2003, 02:17
Some lovely pics. I hope to have some of my own from EDI today up within the next 24hrs,


25th Oct 2003, 06:27
wub: Simply staggering. Well done! Some of the finest images of the bird that I have ever seen. I know Mulhouse quite well and was very pleased to see these pictures. Thanks very much for the trouble of posting them. :ok:

25th Oct 2003, 06:53
4 Photos from LHR today





Grob Driver
25th Oct 2003, 11:48

I’m fortunate enough to be over in Seattle at the moment… Just wondered if anyone is able to confirm if a Concorde is coming to the museum here, and if so, does anyone know the arrival date? I assume she’ll be flying in if she does make it over… Back in England in 2nd November… Will I be lucky enough to see her fly one last time?

Many thanks

Grob Driver

Flying Lawyer
25th Oct 2003, 16:05
I've posted a video of the last Concorde leaving JFK here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=106684&referrerid=18293)

25th Oct 2003, 17:26
Thanks, FL!

Interesting to compare the real avaition people on TV yesterday, such as John Hutchinson and Raymond Baxter - even, dare I say it, Tony Benn - with the drab BA suits and lords. Not a flicker of emotion from Skippy..... :mad:

25th Oct 2003, 17:49
Did anyone see Nick Witchell interviewing Duke of Edinburgh about Concorde? The poor bloke tried to get HRH to enthuse and the best he could muster was "It was nothing special, it just got you there faster that's all" and of his memory of watching it at the Golden Jubilee flypast; "Well, what can one say...it flew past"

Pr!ck :ugh:

25th Oct 2003, 18:33
Nothing is ever special when you get it all for free and do not know how to run a bath. Imagine the problems trying to decide what uniform to wear.

26th Oct 2003, 04:03

I totally agree, Nick Witchell is a Pr!ck

Saab Dastard
26th Oct 2003, 04:15

The 3 Concordes were AE, AF and AG, and I think they actually landed E, F, G, tho' I could be wrong.

I was watching from my house, where I get a good view of aircraft on final for 27 (closer to L than R, but never mind) and listening to director and tower - AF was "told off" ;) for being on the wrong tower frequency (.7 rather than .5).

Amazing sight, very poignant. Really unbelievable that that's it. Over.


26th Oct 2003, 04:37
Hi all,
I think most of it has been said. However, I'm glad I went to Birmingham rather than Heathrow. The crowds, cops and security were relaxed, professional and friendly, and didn't threaten a flat spin like the incompetents at BAA and BA Heathrow.

I've posted muy Birmingham pics at http://community.webshots.com/user/buchonalia
Please enjoy!

I think I've captured the mix of the crowd as well as the plane - what other machine could get so many different people to come and see?

In memoriam,


Jordan D
26th Oct 2003, 06:42
Could someone suggest the best method of me getting my EDI pics online?


26th Oct 2003, 17:05
There's lots of routes.
One is you can go to www.webshots.com and follow the instructions for free albums. Works for me.

Genghis the Engineer
26th Oct 2003, 18:49

27th Oct 2003, 14:59
Ahhhh, the incomparible Matt!

Now a question....

Discussing the prematurely - to put it charitably - Concorde with my Mother yesterday, I talked about the first time we saw it, motoring down the approach into Heathrow, must have been August 1975, on a proving flight...

"Oh no", she said, "we saw it with your father over Richmond in September 1969". She's quite adamant that is fact, though I don't recall it at all, though I do recollect that stay in Richmond - we were staying at the Exiles Club prior to moving out to Kenya.

The old man is not a round to ask any more - so does any one know if 002 did visit Heathrow that soon into its test programme?



27th Oct 2003, 16:03
Sitting in the sunshine by the Thames, outside "The London Apprentice", with a pint of good beer in my hand. Was there a better way to see them go!

Shaggy Sheep Driver
28th Oct 2003, 22:35
Anyone know if G-BOAC is still due to fly into Manch this Friday for permanent display? If so what time?


29th Oct 2003, 00:51
SSD - a post on the ConcSST forum suggests a 0955 departure from LHR on Friday but there is apparently a press release on this tomorrow.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
29th Oct 2003, 03:48
Thanks DB. That Chippy seat still awaits you. We'll do it one day!


SSD (Vince)

29th Oct 2003, 04:40
Hi treadigraph,
"concordesst.com" gives the first flight of G-BSST (002) into Heathrow as 13th September 1970, for a "publicity do".
I assume this date to be correct,but I can't find my old diary to confirm! It's up in the loft somewhere!
Anyhow,I saw Concorde arrive, and happened to be on duty in AIS that night.
In those days, AIS was in the Queen's Building,in the same room as Flight Clearance.
At about 05.30 local a rather bedraggled character came in to file a Flight Plan.It was none other than the great Brian Trubbshaw...."Can you do something with this paperwork,lads? I just want get home for a shave"....or words to that effect!
I think the departure was around 0700 local, on 14th Sept.
So...I saw the first and the last arrivals at Heathrow of the magnificent Concorde!

29th Oct 2003, 14:49
Thanks Folky, so it can't have been Concorde the family Treadigraph saw then... I thought I would have remembered it, despite my tender years! Shame... I could have joined you as one of the few to have seen both landings - well, approaches in my case!



Captain Airclues
29th Oct 2003, 16:20
On the 21st January 1976 I operated a 747 from LHR to JFK. Before checking in for the flight I had bought one of the 'First Day Covers' that the Post Office were selling in the terminal. When it came to doing the flight planning, the crew of the first Concorde service to Bahrain were doing their planning further along the desk (accompanied by Captain Brian Trubshaw). I approached the four gentlemen and asked them to sign my cover, which they duly did. It now has pride of pace on my study wall.


29th Oct 2003, 18:28
I talked about the first time we saw it, motoring down the approach into Heathrow, must have been August 1975, on a proving flight...

Possibly the same day, August Bank Holiday Monday 1975, I took the in laws to Kew Gardens - lovely sunny day then mid afternoon heard the unique noise and the beautiful white bird appeared over the trees and right overhead on her way into LHR.

Can still visuallise it in my brain as I type this.

The first time I saw her must have been early 1970 flying not very high over Radstock in North Somerset, presumably out of Filton. Again that noise, couldn't be anything else.

29th Oct 2003, 20:40
Blimey Duckbutt, Kew Gardens are where we'd been - we had just caught the boat back to Westminster Pier - the day was exactly as you described and August Bank Holiday sounds spot on. :ok:

Almost thirty years ago...

29th Oct 2003, 21:14
Well, there's a thing, Duckbutt! Oi werr droivin' a track'er in Zum'zett when I saw her at about 1500 ft circling overhead. Over Merryfield aerodrome as it happens, think it was in the Easter of 1970?

But my first real sighting was at Le Bourget in 1969 when both 001 and 002 appeared together for the first time. I did have some cine film taken on the day, sadly it was later thrown out by someone else:mad:

29th Oct 2003, 21:23
Well, since we're on the "where were you when you first saw concorde" thread... :-)

... on the perimeter road at Filton, 1969 I believe, for the first UK flight. My father had been working on the hangers where she was being built and had sussed a good location. In all honesty, I don't remember to much about it, other than the noise, as I was only 5 at the time, but I'm trying to get him to dig out the super-8 film so that I can transfer it to video... :ok:

30th Oct 2003, 16:44
I first saw 002 as she flew down the runway at RAF St Mawgan in 1972. The UK prototype was on an aerial tour of the UK at the time; I was struck by the thick yellow smoke that poured out as the throttles were opened.