Drug testing?

[redbull91]

Hi all
Hope all is well.

Just got a quick question really.

A friend of mine who has been bodybuilding for a while now decided, 3 months ago, to take a cycle of a steroid by the name of Deca-Durabolin. He finished this cycle and decided against the use of steroids and to stick with the natural route for numerous reasons im sure you can understand.

Anyway after having numerous flights with myself and many discussions he has set his sights on a career as a pilot. Now i told him the first thing he should do is to get a class one medical cert before spending any money. The problem arises with this short cycle of the above mentioned steroid, apparently this particular steroid stays in the system for 18 months.

I know that they do a urine test and take 2 samples of blood through my experience so his question is...
Do they (caa doctors) test for drugs such as this in both the initial AND the renewals?

Its also a convenience thing because he is visiting some friends near gatwick soon so it would be convenient to kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak.

Hope you can help

Thanks for your time

John

[gingernut]

Redbull, should such a responsible role be taken by one who has a history of abusing illegal (in the UK), drugs ?

Could you not talk your friend into a more suitable career pathway ?

[strafer]

A friend of mine
Does that still work?

[Flyin'Dutch']

RB91,

Your 'friend' can rest assured.

AFAIK drug testing is not part of the medical tests undertaken during the medical.

However some would argue that those who take illegal drugs have a personality disorder which is incompatible with being a safe and competent pilot.

What a shame his conscience only kicked in after the event.

FD

[I. M. Esperto]

Along these lines, I have heard of at least 2 cases where a pilot had a poppy seed bagel before the blood was drawn, and showed positive for something, probably heroin.

[phnuff]

The whole issue of body building drugs is really scary. I friend of mine (yes strafer , it really is a friend and not me) , is by his own words, a former junkie who is now a qualified drug councillor and a passionate anti drug campainer. I was giving him a lift about 3 months ago, and we were talking about drug use. According to him, the misuse of steroids etc. is a far more widespread problem than any of the recreational drugs. The thing is that despite the long term potential consequences, society generally turns a blind eye because steroid users are less of a public eyesore ....

[Bad medicine]

What are steroids if they are not recreational drugs?

Although they are not routinely tested for, they certainly do cause cognitive effects which can impair one's ability to perform safety critical tasks. Many companies would test for them if there was suspicion of interference with safety.

IME - yes poppy seeds can trigger the test for opioids, but it is a simple matter to differentiate between them and heroin.

Cheers,

BM

[phnuff]

What are steroids if they are not recreational drugs?

I knew someone would pick up on that statement, but at the time could not think of any other way to differentiate them. !!

Just from interest, how would you describe them, while separating them from Cocaine/heroin/cannabis etc?

[Miggins]

Flyin Dutch and ginge, oh dear. You clearly have no idea of whats going on in the real world. Nearly all normal teenagers will experiment with drugs at some point, should they all seek a less responsible career. Stick to the moral high ground chaps drinking G & T and smoking safe in the knowledge that you dont "do" drugs.
Redbull your friends steriod use wont show up on the medical and is no problem after this lenght of time but due to a number of factors a current pilot should not use them (mood, fatigue etc).
The milder and legal Pro hormones will affect a proportion of the benefits of steroids without the side affects if your mate is dead keen on suppliments.

[Whirlybird]

I find it a little worry that some people seem to take the attitude that people can't change. This would imply that if ANY of us has some something stupid, ever, we couldn't possibly grow up or learn from experience, that one irresponsible act means one is branded as irresponsible or stupid for ever.

Can ANYONE here say that they have never done anything stupid, anything irresponsible, anything they've regretted. Let he/she is without sin.....

If I was recruiting for a responsible job, I'd rather have the person who'd learned and grown from past experience, than one who was that blinkered.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Of course we all do stupid things and we would be really stupid if we did not learn from them.

However if we go back to the original post I will indicate which bits of the text I picked up on:

A friend of mine

Yahyah; as somebody stated: 'Does this still work'

Take responsibility for your own actions, so either matey boy can do the legwork himself or if this about the person posting, why hide and not be open and up front.

bodybuilding for a while now decided, 3 months ago, to take a cycle of a steroid

Apart from being illegal (which for me is the least worry) this is also unfair towards your competition mates, or are the goodietoshoes on here happy to be deceived by people using elbowgrease to attain a position which they do not deserve?

Do they (caa doctors) test for drugs such as this in both the initial AND the renewals?

If this was a one off mistake why worry about what happens with regards to drugtesting at renewals. After all this was something which happened in the past, or did I miss something.

Unfortunately reality and experience in practice dictates that most people who use recreational drugs (both illegal substances and those which are state sanctioned) have got personality problems which can interfere in their ability to operate machinery and partake in complex tasks such as flying.

FD

[Whirlybird]

Flyin'Dutch,

I see your point. Everything you say is possible. But only that, POSSIBLE.

I have posted questions for friends on PPRuNe. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done that.

Why not be open and up front? In view of the number of people who condemn someone for life for one instance of drug usage - and I don't mean you; it's occurred on a number of threads over the years - do you really need to ask that?

Unfair to your competitors? Yes, but from what I've seen and heard, and I used to be into bodybuilding in a minor way, so common that if you're in that world you hardly perceive it as unfair...till you come out of that world. Horrendous perhaps, but true.

Initial and renewals? You may be right, but he/she mentioned in the first post about it possibly staying in the system for 18 months. Perfectly possible to be worried that it might get missed once, but not the next time. Illogical, but possible.

I'm not convinced about this personality problems bit. I was a child of the 60s; I knew so many people who used recreational drugs, the vast proportion of whom have gone on to do all sorts of difficult and responsible things, including flying. You're only likely to hear about the ones who DO have problems.

You could be right, but IMHO you're making an awful lot of assumptions. I tend to assume people are innocent until PROVED guilty. I reckon that there's still some reasonable doubt in this instance.

[Flyin'Dutch']

WB,

Agree with you entirely, and without further details we'll never know the truth.

Life's experience has unfortunately made me a lot more suspicious than I used to be!

FD

[Hawk]

Poor Redbull! All this moralising you're putting up with to get your question answered!

This is an anonymous forum at a couple of levels. It gives members the opportunity to post here on delicate medical issues. If they choose to do that as themselves, their best friend, their cousin Vinny..whats the difference? It was clinical opinion and others experience he/she was requesting.

Just the same, Flying Dutch raises some interesting and legitimate points, I'd have liked to see them discussed in a seperate thread as broader issues, but leave it up to you.

Whirlybird. Drug users are often given primary and concurrent diagnosis of Personality Disorder. That depends on meeting a number of criteria. Diagnosis and Prognosis is determined on clinical opinion and is usually based on the DSM IV, the bible for clinical psychologists and psychiatrists. A layperson can question the relevance or validity by all means however, that's how it stands at the moment. .

[Whirlybird]

Hawk,

You're talking about drug users - people who use drugs regularly, and who the medical profession gets to hear about. I'm talking about people who experimented occasionally, maybe even only once, many years ago. Nobody even knows about it now, or would suspect it. Some of them have very responsible jobs, and are respected members of their communities. Believe me, I know some of them!

[Evo]

I have posted questions for friends on PPRuNe. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done that.


Yeah, frequently. Not all pilots are computer literate, and in my experience most aren't. We're a minority here, folks :)

I've often been chatting over a beer about flying and a question has come up which I cannot answer - but I know where to ask, so i'll post. I can imagine having a "i'd like to go commercial, but i've done ... in the past, do you think it matters" conversation. Bit of a shame if that makes people assume that i'm unfit to have a licence, eh? :)

[gingernut]

Detaching myself from the personal sideswipes, I guess the question should surround the "friends" ability to pilot an aicraft safely. I can only give my perspective as an expert in health care, not as an expert in aviation. There was a simillar thread dealling with these issues last xmas, but unfortunately it was deleted.

However, what I can say, is that in terms of risk, there is some evidence that taking anabolic steroids, could detrimentally affect this chaps personality. Although the evidence is scant, there is also some evidence to suggest that this "friend" will be more likely to delve into drug abuse again.

Unfortunately, these are the facts. I guess its my role to present them, and your (aviators/employers) role to act upon them. If your prepared to take the risk, and have adequate safeguards to manage that risk, then that is your executive decision.

I'm sorry if there is a need need to question my beliefs and values. Its not my intention to "blame the victim," and no, I am not in a position to take any sort of "moral highground," I'm just interested in helping manage the risk !