multi engine t/o safety brief- your views

[dhoby ghaut]

what items do you consider, apart from the obvious. whats your go / no go point. gear retraction...

i know some of these points might seem obvious.. but ive seen a lot of different procedures.
looking at twin operators in the c310,be 58 range upwards..

just trying to get an idea of how YOU prepare yourself for departure in your single pilot twin engine machine...

cheers

[Sheep Guts]

Well I would have to say get used to different ideas about this one. SOPS for operators differ as much as Flying Schools.

Aircraft Type depends alot on it aswell.

I would look at the POH ( of the types you mention) first and see if there are any quirks. Then mould one from there with your previous training and what your used to. Unless you have an SOP or Ops Manual which is more specific on the subject. If thats the case then thats your gospel.

But generally a Single Pilot Brief is up to the individual on how its contructed and what your happy with.

I believe the following principals are paramount.

1. A brief should BE BRIEF. ie. To the point concise

2. Contain these basic phases

a. Rejected TOFF before decison speed (seePOH)

b. Continued with the following BASIC ITEMS after passing decision speed:

1. CONTROL-----FLY THE AEROPLANE!
2. POWER ----INCREASE TO MAX ( as per POH)
3. DRAG---reduce ( as per POH)
4. IDENTIFY
5. VERIFY
6. CONFIRM
7. FEATHER
8 ASSESS PERFORMANCE--positive or negative
9. CONDUCT PHASE 2s when able to do so, with reference to an Emergency Check list
Of course all changeable depending on POH, COMPANY SOPS etc.

3. Be relevant to the Type, Conditions,TOW, and Place of Departure

4. Should have an "out" if negative performance becomes apparent.

5. Clear and audible to the Testing Officer and or Instructor ( if thats what your doing Training) "So they know that you know deal"

When you get to the Airlines SOPS and Training methods may differ considerably. But the general IDEA is the same.


This is only a guide by the way. Open to criticism

Regards
Sheep

[Jamair]

These are the Aztec procedures, cut & pasted from the routine checklist. SOP requires that ACC-Stop distance is already calculated prior to this and its outcome factors into the decision making process.

DEPARTURE & CAPTAINS BRIEF
Departure is via RWY ____, climbing to ________ and tracking via NDB/VOR/GPS/RADAR to course ______

Take-Off Safety Speed is ____; Blue-Line Speed is 89kt; Best SE ROC is 102kt.

In the event of an engine fire or failure BELOW 89kt, I will abandon the takeoff, shut both throttles, apply maximum braking and pull up straight ahead.

In the event of an engine failure ABOVE 89kt, I will continue the take-off. I will MAINTAIN DIRECTIONAL CONTROL, NOT BELOW 89kts.
MAXIMUM RICH MIXTURE, MAXIMUM PROP PITCH, MAXIMUM THROTTLE.
FLAPS UP and GEAR UP, using hand pump if LEFT ENGINE.
IDENTIFY failed engine – DEAD ENGINE, DEAD LEG
VERIFY with throttle and EGT
FEATHER & SECURE; RUDDER TRIM; 3 BANK INTO LIVE ENGINE
ACCELERATE TO 102kt if able
CIRCUIT & LAND

I read it aloud and go through the motions during backtracking and line-up on every takeoff, and add in where necessary for particular local situations, for instance if circuit & land is not the best option in a particular location. (I switch the audio to 'Pilot' or 'Crew' so the pax don't get all hot and bothered.)

*****

And these are from the POH Emergency Procedures

ENGINE FAILURE DURING TAKE-OFF

Blue-Line Speed is 89kt; Best SE ROC is 102kt.

In the event of an engine fire or failure BELOW 89kt:

· IF STILL ON THE GROUND APPLY MAXIMUM BRAKING AND PULL UP STRAIGHT AHEAD.
· IF AIRBORNE ABANDON THE TAKEOFF, SHUT BOTH THROTTLES, LOCATE A SUITABLE SITE WITHIN 30 OF THE FLIGHTPATH AND LAND AT MINIMUM CONTROL SPEED – SHUT OFF FUEL & SWITCHES PRIOR TO IMPACT.

In the event of an engine failure ABOVE 89kt:

· CONTINUE THE TAKE-OFF.
· MAINTAIN DIRECTIONAL CONTROL, NOT BELOW 89kts.
· MAXIMUM RICH MIXTURE, MAXIMUM PROP PITCH, MAXIMUM THROTTLE.
· FLAPS UP and GEAR UP, using hand pump if LEFT ENGINE.
· IDENTIFY failed engine
· VERIFY with throttle and EGT
· FEATHER & SECURE; RUDDER TRIM; 3 BANK INTO LIVE ENGINE
· ACCELERATE TO 102kt if able
· IF UNABLE TO MAINTAIN ABOVE 89kt LOCATE A SUITABLE SITE WITHIN 30 OF THE FLIGHTPATH AND LAND AT MINIMUM CONTROL SPEED – SHUT OFF FUEL & SWITCHES PRIOR TO IMPACT
· CIRCUIT & LAND or other manoeuvre as deemed appropriate by PIC for circumstances



And here is the pax brief as well.......

FLIGHT BRIEF -
Flight Details Emergency Exits Smoking
Luggage Emesis Bags Electronic Equipment
Seating Intercom Flotation Devices
Seatbelts Look-Out Fire Extinguisher Survival Equipment Movement Oxygen

I would suggest you do as SG advised, but make your FLIGHT BRIEF and DEPARTURE & CAPTAINS BRIEF part of your routine pre-takeoff system in every aircraft you fly, not something you only dredge out for the annual renewal.

Please remember that light twins (even Aztecs too
;) ) are not renowned for being able to climb on one fan. Make it part of your psychological mindset that an EFATO may very well mean a controlled crash on one engine.

[mjbow2]

Heres something to consider......at what airspeed in relation to vmc does the POH advise you to rotate?

compare C-310 to Be 55/58

I would be more likely to continue a take-off in a C-310 for example than an Apache with a failure at 100 ft......

the basics though....

-actions for failure before v1
-ditto..after (no more usable runway is a good point to continue rather than push nose over for landing...)
-weather (VFR return or DP then instrument return)
-performance (ie budget for 200fpm climb or descent at vyse)
-plan b for emergency.(ie field nearby/highway etc)
-mel's
-initial course for departure

i guess theres no hard or fast rule.....brief what is needed to stay safe...

my 2 cents..

MJB

[FO Cokebottle]

After all the above.

DON'T TURN - CLIMB STRAIGHT AHEAD (obstical clearance allowing) TO A "SAFE" MANUVEOURING HEIGHT

Rational: What performance you will have, if any, will go out the window of the side/direction of your turn - lift is a product of vectors (remember student theory).

Assumption: Murphy's Law - the time it will happen, you will be at MTOW at ISA + 20 at DH 3000'

[AZTRUCKER]

All of the above is all good and well and very true.. However i have often thought about it when at MTOW in the take off roll and approaching Blue line and you lose an engine on the RWY sometimes i think it MIGHT actually be better to continue ...IF... and only IF you cant brake and miss that tree or run into a creek bed while trying to brake doing 80 or 90 kts with 700 litres of AVGAS :hmm: Food for thought anyway...

[splatgothebugs]

Good views by all, but you must remember that at the end of the day the only person listening in a single pilot operation is you. :O

As long as you can be sure that you know exactly what your actions are going to be when that engine (god forbid) does fail you've, done your job in briefing yourself properly. :ok:

So sit down and go over the different scenarios on some paper and work out the brief you require for your type of operations.

Good Luck and hopefully you will never have to put your brief into action.

splat

[Perpetual_Hold_File]

Thats all and good aztrucker but if you lose an engine on the runway in a piston twin your not going to go anywhere.

Damed if I ever want to be in the position where I have to make that decision of closing the throttles with an engine failure before decison speed in a piston twin, but 80 knots or less on the ground and in control seems safer to me than trying to wallow upwards near Vmca with one donk and gear/flap out to try and miss a tree.

Piston twins do not have the performance when they turn into piston singles.

[splatgothebugs]

Agreed Perpetual

The old AZTRUCK or any other light twin will go nowhere if not already airbourne, plus I think I would rather be skidding towards an object at the end of a runway (espeacially in an Aztec, bulit like a brick ****house) than trying not to hit the trees while sitting just above Vmca. ;)

P.S. Wasn't have a dig at your comment AZTRUCKER:ok:

[AZTRUCKER]

No offence taken mate, Although you calling the Aztec a light twin was border line surely its got to be a med twin at least!!:ok:

[Jamair]

Nuthin' light about the Aztruck :p & there's still nothing including new $2M AUD B58's that can compare for comfort, capacity and utility - not being biased at all........ I have (accidentally) climbed out from a ATO-induced EFATO at 300AGL at 500fpm with one windmilling (because I temporarilly forgot there was no autofeather....) but that was from SL with super light load of fuel and only 2 POB.

But that aside, I restate my earlier - "Make it part of your psychological mindset that an EFATO may very well mean a controlled crash on one engine." Don't die inverted and nose-down after trying to stagger into the air. The aeroplane is insured.

[Continental-520]

Yep! And frankly, the insurance companies deserve to pay!! My boss ain't paying exorbitent premiums for 9 aircraft for nothing...


520.

[Willie Nelson]

On my current aircraft the POH states varying speeds for blue line depending on AUW. For the record my brief goes like this:

"This aircraft has a Vmca of 72 kts and a Blue line of ____(99-107kts AUW dependant), Should an engine fail before the runway goes under the nose I will close the throttles and land straight ahead and apply maximum braking, beyond that point I will apply mixture up, pitch up, power up, gear up, flap up, dead leg is the dead engine; identify, verify, feather, climbing away at an attitude of 6 degrees of pitch to achieve _____(aforementioned blue line) then to _____________eg; climb straight ahead to such and such an airfield or conduct a right hand circuit avoiding the radio tower at 2 o'clock "

I say this on every take off because there is too many variables and I am not always as alert as I would like to be.

At my decision point I am satisfied that I can have the gear up and the only thing that will be left to do as far as reconfiguring the aircraft will be to retract flap, feather the dead engine (assuming it is not giving me some residual power in which case I will hang on to that thank you very much) and go for my positive attitude. If I am quick I will have height to do this before resuming a very shallow climb out. It is my understanding that my airplane will not climb nor will it maintain altitude until I am at or above blue line with gear and flap up therefore having a clear manner to differentiate between before and after this point is critical.

Willie

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Further to FO Cokebottle's point above, where a straight ahead climb out is not possible, don't forget to brief what your plan of action shall be if the decision is made to go. By that I mean have a good plan in hand for tackling any obstacles that may require non standard circuit directions, turns in the direction of favourable (lower) terrain, the possibility that any turns may be easier into the dead engine (to minimise climb perfromance degradation), and especially at night or in IMC where obstacles and terrain are not visible, the manner in which you will stay within the circling area or runway complex, or may have to 'turn back to the aid' etc etc. Plenty of variables to think about.

And if all else fails 'fly the plane as far into the crash as possible'.

[Counter-rotation]

A couple of thoughts on this subject:

1. When I brief myself for departure in a twin I use the expression "WHEN an engine fails (blah blah)" rather than "IF an engine fails (blah blah) - I think this helps with not becoming complacent. It's kind of a reminder that yes, this could very well be the most exciting departure yet!!

2. Blue line will change with weight. Have a look at the POH for the aeroplane. You may be surprised at the variation, between a full load, with full tanks, and a light fuel load and 2-3 empty seats. Blue line as marked on the ASI is for MTOW. You can work out a rule of thumb to adjust this i.e. each empty seat is worth 2 knots, empty aux tanks are worth 3 knots etc. This will not be 100% accurate to the last knot, but you will be a lot closer to flying the best speed for that particular departure, should you need to.

3. There is a Vxse as well as Vyse. Sounds obvious I know, and the difference may not be much for some aircraft. It may not even be published for others. (The 310 manual I used to refer to did have Vxse's in it). Vx is what you want for obstacle clearance, and you may be less than "blue line"but more than best angle. So you are therefore (maybe?!) in a position to proceed with the T/O - i.e. you have another option.

(P.S. Jamair I thought blue-line was Vyse?)

CR.

[compressor stall]

Don't be too verbose, tell it to yourself like an actioning checklist NOT an essay as some do above. In the heat of the moment you'll recall short sharp points, NOT essays.

eg something along the lines of the following for your aircraft:

"Vmca is ***, rotate at ***" [from flight manual]

"Engine fails before XXX knots, idle/reverse, if leaving runway, FCO/mixture cutoff, gangbar down" [or whatever appropriate].

"Engine failure after XXX knots continue
accelerate to Vyse [AT YOUR Dalt - Vyse changes!!!!!]
Pitch up
power up
gear up
flap up
dead leg
dead engine
confirm with throttle
feather
fly Vyse climb to circuit/LSALT turning [direction] to avoid[obstacles]"

"If not climbing, close throttle, land ahead".

Rote learn this as points as above. Touch drill too, and PLEASE, if you have pax on hot headsets, push your mike out of the way so they cannot hear what you are saying.

Counter Rotation technically blue line on your ASI is not always Vyse. That speed changes with your altitude (will be a couple of knots different at Ayers Rock to Hobart). Your ASI blue line will be the sea level Vyse usually.Refer to this techlog discussion (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49638)

dhoby Ghaut how and what is your decision point?

The aerodynamics of an aircraft does not care how much runway is has travelled over or is remaining in order to determine whether it stays in the air. At a certain airspeed an aircraft will decide whether it wants to fly. Why base a go/no decision on a point on the ground? It would change each day with winds and density fluctuations anyway.

Your decision should be made on speed, and speed alone!

CS

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Compressor Stall has an obvious point, one that many people overlook, or have not had it impressed upon them strongly enough. There is a lot of 'voodoo' methods used with regard to this event such as 'gear up-go, gear down - no go' which is nonsense, really.

Doesn't matter if the gear is up or down, if it ain't at blue line (or above) there is little chance to accelerate to Vyse (unless there is room to descend and accelerate.

If it's not happenin' at blue line, it's not going to happen - period. (in bugsmahers, anyway)

[Counter-rotation]

CS: Point taken and I agree, blue line marked on the ASI is for a certain set of conditions, and the speed which will give max SE performance changes when conditions change. I guess what I really was asking is: What relevance to the departure you are about to conduct, has a speed relating to a different set of conditions? "Blue line" on the ASI has no real relevance, what you want to know is "blue line" for this particlular T/O. This goes back to K.I.S.S. - and that's another good point too.

Decision points, as far as I was taught anyway, only relate to light twins off loooong runways, where you are able to reach a flying airspeed with still enough length to stop on the remaining runway. Gear up when you have insufficient length remaining, that is your decision point. By then you (should) have the airspeed required to proceed - in these cases I select gear up, and then straight to the ASI to confirm this. To me, it's not so much about your decision being made to GO, AFTER gear up - but to ABORT, BEFORE gear up.

A previous chief pilot told me once: "What's really important is not so much what you do, but whether you can justify your actions afterwards"!!

[Skin-Friction]

Vyse is calc prior to T/O. Dec spd varies for RWY lgth & Evironment
Takeoff will be on RWY ...
At 600 ft Turn L/R to intercept the ... radial on climb ... ft

Decision Speed is x kts

Failure before x kts -
Power off, Mixture off, Fuel off, Master off, Mags off
Groundloop if I have to.

Gear up at decision speed.

Failure after gear up -
Control the aircraft, nose 5 degrees up
Hold the bug
Ball in the centre
Rich
Pitch
Power
Gear up
Flap up
Identify dead leg dead engine
Confirm, watching fuel flow & listening
Feather
Bank 3 deg to live
1/2 ball out
Accelerate/Decelerate to Vyse
Full clean up (ck gear, flap, feather, cowl flap, lights)
If A/C is not performing reduce pwr on live and look for a spot

Conduct Phase 2's

IMC escape procedures as necessary

When you get back on the ground - K.I.S.S. it!

[Spotlight]

Col Kurtz

Your reply has sparked my interest.

"Personally I do not think the gear up/gear down decision is a voodoo method".

Once airborne, positive rate of climb and insufficient runway to land ahead raise the gear and accelerate to blue line. In most piston twins used for charter blue line, such as it is, is between 95 and 112 knots. Rotating at 90 kts and raising the gear puts you at the blue line fairly rapidly. In conditions where this is marginal, eg taking off at 2800kg in a C404 on a 1000m dirt strip the 20 to 40 seconds of worry can seem like a lifetime but I can tell you all aircraft have coffin corners. Get to Blue line. There is nothing to be gained by excess speed at this stage, in fact you should be ready to counter with rudder, pole forward and slightly bank towards the live engine whilst performing the 5 ups. Keep going straight ahead terrain permitting. Pole forward to the maximum VYSE, 110kts will work with most, note the VSI and work back from there. If it is giving you 50 ft per min raise the nose and come back five knots, roll another degree or two towards the good engine, keep coming back on the speed until you feel you have it nailed. Loaded, in most working twins this will be around 50 to 200 fpm rate of climb. Also in most working twins there will be circumstances of weight and temperature and engine/aircraft condition where you will be going down at 50 to 200fpm. Thats okay ground effect can gain you several miles to a suitable area.

Transient power losses should not excite an overreaction: Example: Baron 55 with I think from memory 470 engines, the POH wants fuel pumps to low on take-off in conditions over 100deg C.
Or aircraft with rippled rubber bladder fuel tanks storeing water until acceleration/deck angle puts into the system.
Or maybe the engine blows a cylinder through the cowl.
Sometimes it maybe appropriate to drive the engine to destruction.

[bush mechanics]

I think a good takeoff brief is one which is easy to comit to memory.After haveing to use it not long ago in a 402 ,I was queite surprised after parking the A/C that I didnt remember doing anything but when iI look around the A/C I found all the switches and levers in the right spot after the shut down.I think it came naturally from learning a simple but precise take off brief.
Happy Days

[compressor stall]

Not sure if I am reading your post correctly.



Once airborne, positive rate of climb and insufficient runway to land ahead raise the gear and accelerate to blue line.

Has your engine failed by this point? (you don't actually state where it fails). If not, then there is NO POINT accelerating to blue line for reasons you correctly attribute later There is nothing to be gained by excess speed at this stage .

As has been discussed in many other threads, accelerate to and maintain your ME BROC for the day (will vary with Dalt) then if one fails, let the speed wash off to your Vyse for the day. To do anything else turns your precious energy into parasite drag, not height!

CS

[gaunty]

Eeerm: OR which side of the radio tower/building or whether you can get under HT powerlines/bridge span etc. etc. etc. and where are the least worst spaces within several kms down the extended TO centerline.

Lets see maybe net 120fpm at say 50 ft AGL @ 100KIAS/ 90KTS GS = 1.5nm/min

500ft-50ft/120 fpm = 3.75minutes x 1.5nm = 5.625nm = say 10 kms before you can even think about turning and maybe maintaining ht.

Q; what is the maximum bank angle you could tolerate and maintain height with a net 120fpm climb rate available to you.?

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Spotlight - I was probably not clear enough in what I was trying to say - let me elaborate.

What I should have written (if the tribesmen kept quiet outside the cave) was that in my experience in type converting qualified twin drivers is that MANY use the decision to go when wheels are up regardless of airspeed ie gear up=go. As agreed, if not already at blue line, accelerating in climb, or in level flight in a light twin can be impossible under most conditions.

That's a pretty basic error that is either the result of a misunderstanding of the first principles of flight with asymmetric power, or having been taught incorrectly in the first place, and that misconception is carried forward into their career as a 'rote' procedure. Hence the reference to 'voodoo' just like the many myths involved in leaning etc etc (but that's another 3000 page topic!)

I'm not so sure that it will be possible to fly in ground effect to a suitable point without collision with some kind of obstacle (tree, tower, fence, tall native etc) but am interested to hear of something that might help (!)

Another point to add to Takeoff safety briefing is the inclusion of a IAS factor above blue line to allow for pilot recognition and reaction time. It doesn't take much time to lose 5 or 10 kts in a climb with a windmilling prop, so I believe that a reasonable factor could be (for inexperienced or new ME pilots) Vyse +10, and for more experienced ME pilots maybe Vyse +5 or something along those lines.

Now, I qualify all that I have said with the following point. Whilst it is of the utmost importance to have a plan of action in the case of an emergency, the pilot must retain the FLEXIBILITY to assess the actual event and circumstance and be prepared to act decisively to change that plan (if required) to suit what will be a dynamically changing environment to ensure the best possible outcome.

[Spotlight]

I grant that it is difficult to generalise about speeds, being that different types have different numbers. The reason I advocate the blue-line speed is that it is marked on every ASI and the best single engine speed will be somewhere close to it. Calculating & flying the the best twin engine rate of climb speed brings up some interesting points. In piston twin fleets it is unusual to have TOLD cards, airspeed bugs or tabulated data. All conducive to the pilot doing this on a multi-sector day in a Queenair in the bush with loads coming off and going on

In some cases it may not even be needed. The C404 for example has the best twin engine rate of climb speed 1 & 2 knots slower than the best single engine rate of climb speed through the whole range from 91 to 109kts.

Col Kurtz, I agree with all you say, it is all valid and thought provoking. And I do agree that Blue-line + 10 is a good safety factor.

[Spotlight]

Ibex.

No it wasnt a typo, the point I was making is that at that weight the rotate speed is quite low. 78 kts to be precise. Whilst the flap and gear are coming up the short strip is rapidly disappearing and you are in an unenviable situation until the speed builds up.

[Hudson]

Jamair. Your checklist states "maximum Prop Pitch". That's an interesting play on words. I thought max pitch on a prop was full coarse? ;)

[the maori mobster]

yeah bro it goes soemthing like this

"Engine failure before V1/Vr....... Cool don't have to explain to the cops about the dope in my house"

"Engine failure above V1/Vr..... ****, panic...... did I hide the dope before I came to work....(Mental note if I survive.... hide it).....otherwise...... car kitty ano"

"Engine failure above V1/Vr and OCH..... phew.. might survive... fuel thing forward..... blue poggo stick forward and the red pill forward"

If the fan thingies on the wing are still going then I'll shout the boys a bong tonight.



Apart from that what else do you need to know?

[Winstun]

I am concerned by the naievity and optimism displayed by many here over light twin and pilot performance in the critical takeoff phase between liftoff and reaching blueline and about 100 feet altitude....:rolleyes: FAA Part 23 airplanes are not required to have any engine out takeoff performance. You will find the POH single engine climb gradient was demonstrated by an expecting, test pilot in new polished machine in calm air with the gear and flaps already up, prop already feathered, etc, etc...If you are unlucky to lose an engine in this critical phase without decreasing or very flat barren terrain, and you are not yet at 100 feet with the gear up, you are probably going to crash. Its all too easy to stall out or lose control attempting something that is unlikely.

[Sheep Guts]

Wow Winstun! Im impressed when I saw your post I though it was going to be Winstun's TOTAL TRIPE POST No. 191. But it sounds as though youve been reading. What you say is correct. Also to add to this in Australia anyway these aircraft are required to maintain an altitude of 5000ft on one engine. Now I still cant understand where this comes from or where. I have to do somemore reading.

To add to what Winstun has outline. The only reall Training any Pilot Gets in assymetric at MTOW, are the airline guy in Flight Simulators. All the training weve had is at light weights and sometimes choice or non choice conditions. High Temperatures and density altitudes.

Flying a Twin Otter at Max weight on a Hot day 40c youll probabaly manage around 500FPM climb out . What on earth on a one donk..................You and me ask?

Some Twotter Captains out there can tell what happens, I havent experienced it myself yet touch wood say.

Thats why monitoring your performance in an emergency situation as assymetric is paramount. Gravity allways wins!
You just have to make it livable until touch down. You cant go out with a preconcieved idea that you will perform. You must keep thinking outside the box, keep replanning as you go. If Negative performance is all you have left.

PERFORMANCE AND GETTING IT IS YOUR ONLY AIM IN ASSYMETRIC FAILURE. When all else fails and youve got none, then your plan changes.

It has been said that some people in these situations perservere mindlessly and then lose control.

Somtimes this can be too late. So planning and thinking ahead, drilling yourself and. identlifying problems or obstacles that may hamper recovery is important. Try to allways put yourself ahead of the game. Being complacent and not using all the runway, as much fuel as practicable, and crusie as high as practicable, will all give some potential to turn a horrible situation into maybe something catastrophic.


Food for thought

Sheepy

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Someone earlier had remarked that 'all aircraft have a coffin corner' or words to that effect. In the bugsmasher,the one that relates to this discussion is the point after rotation until Vyse is achieved.

What kind of segments do ME pilots use after rotation in order to minimise the risk of EFATO and at low level??

My belief is that after rotation, the aircraft should be cleaned up and accelerated through Vyse as soon as possible, runway remaining or not! If you ever end up with enough runway to land back down on (ever really considered how much runway is ACTUALLY needed to liftoff to 50' then descend to land???? Try plotting TORR chart to 50' then a LDR from 50' chart and see!) In reality, how many seconds does it really take for undercarriage to deploy in a light twin? Not sure? Time it next time you're out flying (but keep an eye on things!!!)

Next phase is to climb at Max rate (or max angle if obstacles are a problem) to get altitude asap that may be needed to trade for time or performance in the event of an engine failure. Height buys time and opens up your options.

Once at a safe height, then another climb segment can be initiated either BROC or a CRZ climb as desired and you're on your way, until your engine fails in flight(!) Less critical unless you're in the worng (LSALT) place on the wrong day. Luckily, Australia doesn't have a huge amount of high LSALT's like the US and Europe.

Winstuns points are very valid (and I don't just say that cause I'm one of his fans!). An instructor of mine had told me to consider the Light piston twin as an aircraft fitted with one V8 engine - split into two parts.

Sheeps guts mentioned the fact that there is a requirememnt to maintain 5000'. That comes from CAO 20.7.4.

The ME aircraft in private ops needs to be able to maintain 5000' in the ISA. IFR ME aircraft are required to be able to CLIMB at 1% to 5000' in the ISA. That usually means a reduction in TOW in order to achieve that.

Now, how many people REALLY comply with that??

One of the most important things to consider and to forever keep in the fore of your mind flying this category of aircraft is that the twin can provide an extra margin of safety with the POSSIBILITY of continued flight on one engine - it's not a certainty- but the conditions have to be right and the pilot has to do EVERYTHING right!! When an engine failure occurs, the pilot is faced with more considerations and decisions to make than to simply pick a field and land as you would in a single (even though this could be the best decision to make under some circumstances in a twin).

It can often be a losing battle to keep the plane flying, and as Winnie & Sheep Guts mentioned, perservering into keeping the plane in the air at all costs will usually result in a Vmca induced loss of control event - hence the saying that the good engine usually gets the plane to the scene of the accident.

Still, all things considered, in my opinion the twin is a safer machine than the single - but it's got to be flown by a current and competent pilot who is well aware of the limitations of these machines and operates it accordingly.

Now putting on my old flak jacket......

[compressor stall]

Col Secreted in your cambodian jungle hidout you've got it pretty much right.

1. Get airborne at the manufacturer's recomended speed (which varies at diff weights etc). Wheels up as soon as safe, flaps thereafter, irrespective of runway length.

2. Accelerate to Vy (or Vx - rare)

3. Once at circuit height in day VMC or LSALT IMC/night, cruise climb speeds.

As I said earlier, to do anything else wastes energy.

IFR ME aircraft are required to be able to CLIMB at 1% to 5000' in the ISA. That usually means a reduction in TOW in order to achieve that. Now, how many people REALLY comply with that??

Even if you DID comply, it ain't much help on a 40 degree humid day if you can climb at 15degreesC.

AND 1% at say Vyse at 106 knots is about 107fpm. :hmm: Refer what Gaunty says above.


CS


Hey Gaunty - struggling with the maths at the moment after a few to many Boags last night, but getting there. Got a feeling around 9 degrees, but just trying to force some equations together. Need a bigger hammer methinks! :ok:

[Spotlight]

The only caveat I would add to the above is that off a super long runway delaying gear retraction momentarily can give another option in one of those situations (more common than not I think) where there is some confusion as to whats wrong. A door going or a locker, with the possibility of luggage striking the prop or airframe, not getting full power on one or not happy with an indication. A fire bell going off!

Or possibly at MTOW one stops at 50' and you really don't fancy your luck that day.

As the Col mentions you are certainly going to eat up runway on the abort, therefore having the wheels down, all that is required is a quick chop of the throttles and full flap.

Alice springs to mind. As a matter of fact I saw it done there although it did take a hammer and chisel to deweld the brakes.

[Sheep Guts]

True GUYS

But when your going down your going down so planning your take off with as much clearway or less obstacles should allways be your choice. At Darwin for instancet everyone does an intersection departure at Bravo ( half length). What would the CASA investigator or Insurance underwriter have to say about that after a late abort?


Sheep

[gaunty]

Sheep Guts

Spot on.

I don't subscribe to the "on a long runway leave the gear down for a landing back on" theory, because it is just that.

There is no data for that eventuality and you are way out there on your own in the same manner as Sheep suggests, with the lawyers and investigators.

Use all the available runway, normal TO technique and as Sheep says, if it all goes pear shaped you have more "clearway and less obstacles" in which to get your act together, if indeed that is possible.
Make a clear decision about your go/no go decision speed on the ground, trying to work it out in the air will have truly inevitable consequences.

Intersection take offs are available and safe for transport category aircraft because the EFATO case has been taken care of in the calculations. An engine failure after V1 is simply noted and the TO continued according to the calculated speeds and you will eventually get around.

The best you can do in a non transport cat twin is use the POH to calculate an accelerate go/stop distance using the "Engine Faulure" speed provided therein. In most cases except at international or very long airports the "go case" to 50 ft obstacle is rarely available.

Darwin for most twins will be 3800m or more, with a gradient thereafter of maybe 1.8%.

So have a think about your next "intersection departure request or offer", it's OK for the big kids aircraft, but not cool unless you are actually in one.

[Spotlight]

Gaunty, with all due respect I think I will keep my own counsel about the gear.

From Mr Cessna's 404 Flight Manual:

'On long runways, the landing gear should be retracted at the point over the runway where a wheels down forced landing on that runway would become impracticable'. Perhaps the lawyers will not spot this in your mans case.

The 404 at gross weight on a 30deg day at Alice Springs has a take-off run to 50ft of 954m. On the same day at gross weight it has a landing distance over a 50' obstacle of 695m (Ground Roll 381m).

Total 1649m. Alice Rwy 12 is 2438m. The difference is 789m..

Note that this is predicated on nil wind. (decrease T/o Dist 7% for each 10kts of headwind & decrease landing dist 3% for each 4kts of headwind.
Neither does it take into account the stopway.

Darwin I gather has an even longer runway and is sea level.

Now this is a reasonably heavy aircraft in piston terms. I would hazard a guess that a 310, Baron etc would provide an even greater margin.

Would anyone like to run the figures on a Seminole out of Adelaide in winter with 2 pob, 2hrs fuel and a 20kt headwind component.

[gaunty]

Spotlight,

You miss my point entirely.:O

[Spotlight]

Gaunty.

Would you like a glass of water?

[Continental-520]

Well, how the plot thickens.

I was following up till about 4 or 5 posts ago, but this has all just gone right over the top of my head now... :confused:


520.

[Spotlight]

Ibex

When writing the example you quote I was thinking of a particular situation. You will note I said 'dirt strip'. The connotations of that being; soft, no clearway, tree's at the end, stinking hot day etc, hence the book rotate figure. Then nowhere to go until the aircraft is cleaned up.

At 3800kg off a thousand metres, even at isa the 404 will not go anywhere near to meeting Accelerate Stop or Accelerate Go Distances.

At 2800kg, yeah you can do it.

[FO Cokebottle]

Who in the hell has the time to think of all the variables listed above when the a fan stops and the other is taking you to the crash site faster than you require.

Bottom line:

Do what you said you were going to do before you pushed the throttles up and more than likely you will survive ...... end thread.

[Winstun]

As Sheepy stated, you aim for max performance with your drills but you need to re-assess the situation as it happens. There could be many variables that become important in the heat of the moment. I am surprised that many here think they can accelerate a loaded piston twin on one engine while cleaning up your drag in the first about 100 feet without going down. I can see a directional loss of control or stall happening here. I fully endorse Spotlight in holding the gear on longer runways. I think its much more preferable getting back down and going for whatever you get out of the last few hundred feet or clearway, decelerating initially intact on the ground with a much lower impact speed. Rather than scratching along at 100 kts above obstacles and maybe getting away with it. I am shocked that airmen would base their judgements with regards to lawyer or investigator implication. Despite the contrary perception, today Aussies are much more pre-occupied with litigation than their US counterparts, sad indeed.

[Jamair]

Hudson - Yep, but even then it depends on whether you're reading yank or pom books - some will refer to max pitch as the coarsest setting toward feather, while others will regards max pitch as the finest setting toward zero. My emphasis was / is on the 'Max' - pushing the levers forward in the correct sequence. Some others have a different mantra, like 'Rich, Pitch, Power, Gear, Flaps', or like the guy who does my annual renewal, insists on hearing '1,2,3,4,5' for the Phase 1 control sequences. Semantics really; as long as it works for you.;)

Counter Rotation - Correct, the blue line speed (89kt) is Vyse M(IFR)TOW; the Vxse M(IFR)TOW is 84kt. 102kt is the normal best rate of climb speed (Vy). The POH gives a SE RoC at Vy at M(IFR)TOW at standard ISA of 240 fpm; there are no figures for RoC for Vyse. In order to ascertain prior to T/O whether the required gradient can be met in the event of an EFATO, one must aim to achieve 102kt and 240fpm, then use the appropriate graph. This is not unique to the Aztec, the other Piper twins I have time in (PA34-200 & PAY3) share this system. Clyde (Clive?) and Walter do things a little differently.

[splatgothebugs]

POWER, AIRSPEED, DRAG.

Do these 3 items and your on your way, the last thing you want to be doing @ 50ft with one donkey out in an AZTEC is trying to remember what comes up and when.

As far as gear retraction with RWY remaining it all comes down to the type of aircraft and operational speeds. However if it's a puddle jumper like an AZTEC where you only have one hydraulic pump, you need to get that gear away as soon as your flying otherwise you chance of surviing if you loose the left engine is zero.

That said, I think everybody has valid points and all this threed is doing is stirring up that old A-CAT on the turps @ the club on a friday night argument.

However I wouldn't mind hearing from anybody who has had one fail just after take off............ ;)

[slice]

Has anyone here actually had an engine failure at take off in a crappy light twin??

I had a 'partial' engine failure if you could call it that just after lift off on RWY 11 at Darwin in a 402B very close to MTOW (~2850 kg) at 25 deg C. After lift off (90 kts)and positive rate selected gear up and waited for the acceleration to 120 kts at the usual attitude. Noticed that it was taking forever to get to 120 kts and sensed that something was wrong but no noise change or variation in MP/RPM/FF. Gear was now up, flap was up (not used for TO in 402). At about 300 ft AGL massive fluctuations in RH FF, MP, and RPM simultaneously ( Ohh farrkk!! was what went through my head - not that blue,up,up,up,up,up dead,dead, close,feather stuff). Simultaneously Tower calls to ask if ops normal as he could see black smoke pissing out of the RH engine. Still got positive ROC(300 fpm) and briefly consider engine shutdown BUT it still seemed to be producing useful power and left it alone - nosed up slightly to come back to Blue. All this seemed to happen in a nanosecond .Requested LL abbreviated circuit for left base 18 and reduced power at 500 AGL for the tightest circuit I have ever done. Fluctuations dissappeared at power reduction and breathed easy. Told pax of obvious problem and landed normally. My point is that if it had been a total failure on that engine we would have been lucky to fly level even if I got it feathered quick and got onto blue line properly - both very big maybes in my mind!. :sad: :uhoh: :\ :ugh: :oh:

[Sheep Guts]

Well done slice me thinks Ive flown that same plane many moons ago. Not sure what rego yours was, the one I flew was VH-**Y. It was a rough machine when I flew it and it had a few problems one of them being the intermittent power fluctuations in the cruise. Had it happen a multitude of times. Allways sought LAME advice and lined it off in the MR. but dunno if they finally fixed it, as I left for different pastures.

Exactly right about performance on one engine at MTOW. Its not proven for any of these twins under 5700kgs. And no one gets training at MTOW with abnormalities, other than Airline Pilots in Sims for types above 5700kgs.


Regards
Sheep

[slice]

Sheep - actually no it was VH-**J, not quite so rough but a pissweak performer none the less! :mad:

[bush mechanics]

Slice can I ask why if the a/c is climbing why raise the nose and get the speed back to blue line?Give your self a margin.I would rather have speed above blue line and 300 ftpm climb.

[slice]

Well I think at the time I was trying to max the ROC - 300 fpm feels like ****** all when the ground is 200 feet below you. If the margin you refer to is an allowance for instantaneous speed washoff if the engined failed completely, well the conventional wisdom is additional altitude is more beneficial than addtional speed. If the engine had failed I would have had to lower the nose and accept an altitude loss while getting it feathered etc. to stay on blue line. In short with the engine still working, getting to a safe circuit height as quickly as possible seemed far more important. Additional speed with reduced ROC would have taken us a fair way further from the aiport. As it was, the circuit I did would have allowed me put the AC down somewhere within the airport boundary if things got really anal (maybe the taxi lanes on the North GA ramp - now that would be an arrival!:} )