What the Hell's going on at Virgin Blue?

[Scooter]

Just caught up with a few good mates at VB and it seems both they and also the F/A's are not happy campers at the moment.
Apparently the other day a very senior manager that likes to whinge in public supposedly sacked a Captain for doing his job properly.

This skipper did the right thing and refused to board an aircraft that had both no Tech or cabin crew aboard just to make for a quick turn around.
This manager who had been cruising around the airport (not his usual haunt so they say) reamed the captain out and was told in no uncertain terms by the pilot that if he wanted to board the pax illegally he could fly the aircraft also.
This apparently resulted in the Captain being sacked (although reinstated after an embarassing apology).
This very high profile manager took exception at having the Captain remove his epaulettes and handing them to him.

This guy was once well liked and got along well with the troops - nowadays he is dispised, goes around making a nuisance of himself, being demanding, sacking pilots who don't agree with him etc. etc.

To make matters worse Virgin Blue is capping the capacity on 20 odd flights today due to Flight Attendant illness.
This means a max of 140 odd pax instead of about 180.
Thats a capacity shortfall of around 800 seats and a serious dent in any daily profit.

Now I hope this isnt true but when you hear it from both Cabin as well as Tech crew then there is obviously something amiss.
It surprises me that this hasnt made any mention as its a very serious issue and should be brought to bare.

We know Richard Branson boasts about his happy workforce but is this the pressure being pressed by its other owner?
Sounds like this guy needs to get the flick and make the company a better place to work.

[AN LAME]

I hear that that is how it's been in Engineering since day one.

[Dambuster]

Sure as hell if some management type were to illegally sack a pilot for doing his job I would expose this **** for what he is.
Very surprising and disappointing the VB guys/gals havent said anything especially if true.
This just isnt the sort of thing to be taken lying down or even to laugh at beacuse its bloody serious.
Sounds to me that Virgin have a serious moral problem thats got to be addressed.
This is a prime example why all the VB pilots should be part of a union.
Anyone know what percentage of the VB guys are union members?

[permFO]

I don't think this style of management is unique to VB sounds like this management person has been to the TJ school of airline management. Is this incident of boarding without crew related to another posting on the same subject? Good on the Captain for standing his ground!

[AlbertRoss]

The same manager also directed a captain to not wait for engineers who had been called to re-install life jackets that had fallen out and ended up at the rear of the cabin. He reckoned they could just stick them all (about 50 of them) in the rear galley (they were doing SYD-PER) to be handed out if they were needed.
He also got involved in a duty time problem in CBR - ops had decided to send the crew to a hotel due to an on-going tech problem so they could start their rest time to enable an early start the next day - bozo gets involved (he was paxxing) and demands that they stay at the airport to get going that night (the plane was never fixed until the morning).
And then there is the bearded one who ordered a captain, after offloading a drunk and abusive passenger, to take him back on the flight because "....I've spoken to him and he's promised to behave...."
Another captain was asked to explain why no service was given CBR-SYD; with embedded cb's forecast and already experienced SYD-CBR he told the crew to remain seated for the entire 25 minute flight - just so happened bozo was returning from his ski holiday and didn't like missing out on his cuppa.
And recently a captain was invited for tea and biccies to explain why he went fatigued after a back of the clock PER-BNE-MEL (he and the F/O refused the last sector due to inadequate rest achieved in PER).
These are just SOME that have made 'headlines' recently - yes, there IS a big problem at VB at the moment.:(

[Chocks Away]

mmmm

Also heard from an F/A there, they are losing approx 50 FAs a month from resignations.
The word was, the rosters are too arduous and they were burning out, 15 O/nights/month.

Now I don't want to bag them 'cause having recently flown a distance with them, its a good product for what I paid.

Hopefully it is all just a transitional problem while they find equilibrium, otherwise they're in for a huge shock when they look at their training costs. Retention of staff plays a big factor.

[OneDotLow]

kym???????????
:O
where are you at a time like this?

[Kaptin M]

How come it's mainly scxxs...ooops...."post '89 Oz airline employed drivers", and their (few) supporters that have started, and continued this topic?

We need only VB_Capt and OICUR to add their tuppence worth, to almost complete the roll call! :rolleyes:

"...they're in for a huge shock when they look at their training costs."
Think you'll find they're a tax deductible item, Chocks - and NO shortage of applicants.
Not saying I agree, but from an employers' point of view, the ever-changing scenery remains keen - if only for a limited time before expiry - and there will NEVER be any accumulated leave problems!

Cruel, but I have worked with this concept ever since leaving Oz in 1990, so it's nothing new!

[halas]

Tax deductable or not it still costs money.

They have to earn X amount to afford the deductability.

Wouldn't it be better to keep X than apply for the deduction?

halas

[Suffering Sucataash]

Why not start filing safety reports with the department?

I think this bloke would recieve the message from the company very loud and clear if they got involved.

:ok:

[ur2]

Wrong again Kraptin M,
Think you will find it is your mates, oh sorry your a SORE, you dont have any on either side :(

[Dambuster]

If only half of what Albert Ross says is true then I would think VB have some very serious problems to be dealt with and quickly.
This doesnt sound like a good or sound work environment especially with management goofs trying to chastise Captains over their power to exercise operational control.
This is exactly why unions are still a necessary evil and why pilots in this case should be members for their own protection.
I firmly believe that if all the VB pilots were members of the same union then this problem would never have reared its ugly head or has Chris Corrigan outlawed (sorry,strongly discouraged) union membership.

Any pilot worth an ounce wouldnt stand for any of the behaviour described on this and I applaud the pilots for standing up to management.
The question is how the hell did management ever think they could violate the Captains authority and deliberately violate CAO/Rs in the process?
Maybe the senior pilot managers should educate those so called managers that are obviously used to flouting their schoolboy prefect authority whilst attempting to break the law in the process.

[tightcannon]

Gentlemen, its happened again!!!!

If you all remember how the DJ crew (re prune posters) went very quiet when the EBA was going through,

All Virgin staff got a email from Brett yesterday that has caused a fair bit of depression in the ranks. i am not going to say what it was about due obvious reason.

I will say that anyone wanting a job at the moment might want to contact Rishworths in NZ.:mad:

[AlbertRoss]

Kap M, for your info, the captain involved in the boarding incident isn't a post '89 employed airline pilot, as you so elegantly phrased it ! I can't vouch for the other posters on this thread but I too can't acknowledge 'hero' status either; I'm just telling what I know.

[hoss]

From Flight Safety Australia (CASA publication).

"When enough's enough."
Pilots are sometimes pressured to break rules by shonky operators. ................. call the confidential CASA hotline
1800 074 737.

Safe flying, hoss:)

[go_dj]

tightcannon wrote

All Virgin staff got a email from Brett yesterday that has caused a fair bit of depression in the ranks. i am not going to say what it was about due obvious reason.

Just to verify the email sent yesterday to Virgin Blue staff.

In essense Virgin Blue's growth has come to an end, any future
capacity needed in Australia will be done by "Pacific Blue" as
well as all international operations, "Pacific Blue" will be a
N.Z. company employing Kiwis, Virgin Blue staff will have no
involvement in the new company.

[Johhny Utah]

IF this is all true - in essence, DJ staff are about to be DJ'd by their much cheaper New Zealand off shoot? :mad:

I guess this can only lead to further downward pressure on wages within the industry - so at the end of the day this affects all of us. I guess DJ staff can now begin to experience downward pressure on their wages too, now that they are no longer the industry low benchmark.

The irony will probably be lost on most - but at the end of the day we'll all no doubt be compared to the new Pacific Blue as the benchmark for wages & efficiency (no matter how unrealistic they might be). :*

I'll be interested to see what the unions make of all of this, having been so quick to sign off on the DJ agreements when they burst onto the scene...

[gissmonkey]

they screwed AN and now it's DJ's turn............:mad:k1w1s

[Wirraway]

A bit of a shock, it will be interesting to see how Geoff Dixon
reacts, will he now make his LCC Skimpy to be run by JetConnect? Christ it could be a Kiwi invasion !!.

Wirraway

[Transition Layer]

Was having a rather drunk conversation with a Kiwi the other night whilst standing in a queue outside some dodgy pick-up joint. Being a bit full of the amber liquid and feeling a bit feisty, i asked him why the f*ck there are so many Kiwis in Australia?

The answer "wages bro, wages".

The weak NZ economy has a lot to answer for. The sooner they become the 9th state/territory the better so we won't have this nonsense going on.

You can have the World Cup, just don't take our jobs!

TL

[thebonecollector]

Spent 7-8 months in the VB organisation, resigned probably 6 months later than I should have. Management a joke, standards a joke, okay if you can't find work elsewhere, but really very embarassing to have their name on the resume. Get a real flying career and apply the trade as it should be.

[HGW]

Obviously some DJ staff didn't read the email properly.
There was nothing in it that would make any person worry about their job, in fact it was quite the opposite.
I suppose it is the old adage - is your glass half full or half empty.

[Sperm Bank]

Bonecollector, care to elaborate on your comments. "Management a joke, standards a joke". The last thing I am interested in is another QF v's DJ thread but you have drawn your sword mate so lets hear it. In what area are the standards a joke? Is it the the youth that upset you? or possibly some of the old timers being too old, or maybe it's guys like myself who spent years operating overseas in varied environments you can't fathom. What was so demonstrably wrong with the standards that to date has not caused ANY accidents. Granted there have been a few incidents but certainly nothing out of the ordinary, either in frequency or seriousness.

Bold statements require clarification mate or your credibility is called into question. Fire away!

[gregm]

In reference to the VB email, it makes sense that if they operate out NZ they should employ local staff NZ Staff, this surely is benefical for their negotiation to access New Zealand facilities, they can say we will be a local NZ company employing Kiwis, its got to be good for the Virgin empire.

Seems common for organisations to want high staff turnover, saves having the problem accrueing holiday pay, long service leave etc. They are already paying for their training staff, so why not make them work harder for their money.

[Clive]

With all due respect gregm that would have to be filed under one of the less sensible replies so far.

Your suggestion belies the fact that there is a strong link betwwen staff morale (through job satisfaction and job security) and productivity. In the service industry this is hugely inmportant. Important enough that Westpac recently spent large ammounts of money on research into the phenomenon (pity they don't apply the results themselves).

Happy saff = happy customers. Just ask Herb Kelleher (Southwest Airlines CEO).

My experiences of VB (as a paying customer) have all been very positive. I hope that continues given the above rumours.

Cheers. :O

[phuqmeded]

Does this mean no pay rise for achieving int'l ops?:confused:

[Foreign Worker]

You have to face it, Dickie Branson is a pretty smart cookie with his marketing strategies - both to revenue income-producing pax, and to revenue outgoing staff.

The appeal to passengers on all of the Virgin services, is the cheap ticket price.

The appeal to flight staff (the bulk of Virgin's employees) is multi-tiered.
Virgin offers young, starry-eyed, "I always wanted to be a stewardess (and find a rich husband - pilot or pax, it doesn't matter)" nubile females the chance to fulfil their dream.

It's no secret, because we've all seen it, that you need only one bitch on heat (and I am talking literally about dogs, now), to attract an entourage of male suitor hopefuls, all of whom are hoping to be lucky enough to score a direct hit.
So applications for ANY position (!!) by males within a Virgin company will ALWAYS run at a premium, knowing that Virgin is renowned for hiring the creme-de-la-creme of the "bitches" (no insult intended).......almost regardless of salary.

Dickie B is the Hugh Heffner of the airline industry.

And for the pilots, why does VB appeal?
Well, for the young studs, it's a chance to crack an airline job, flying good equipment and building hours at the max rate for the "next", BIG-paying job.
After all, VB notoriously pays crappy wages - but the (very) occasional "strike", and the party atmosphere on overnights is what keeps you hanging in for longer than you had originally planned.
After all, you only live once!

And for the older/oldie pilots. Life's all about enjoying WHERE you live (well that's the line you spin the wife!). In fact, it's not really a lot different to the reasons the young guys are there - except you don't need the hours anymore!
But those young, efferevescent things are there! Teasing you (well, that's what YOU think), with the subtle intimacies that only a man of your experience can understand...those years of experience (that a facelift could erase when you get the time off) that only she/they admire, over the younger, taut, muscular, 30 second "wham, bam, thank you ma'am" types vying for her.

Party animals. And Dickie even pays for the occasional party for his staff.
Simply because the word of mouth publicity it gets is a damned cheap investment!
We ALL love a party - but guess who's REALLY paying?

And the longer you stay, the more it costs you! :{

[Sperm Bank]

Foreign worker that was an interesting perspective. Unfortunately your facts are a little off the mark.
"Nubile females the chance to fulfil their dream". 18 to 22 year olds are not Nubile mate. Virgin have identified that (the maturity aspect in particular) and are employing older more mature people for the cabin.

"Entourage of male suitor hopefuls" Well the woman wooers as you refer to are usually too tired to be bothered with all the necessary ground work to score a "direct hit". I love a good shag mate but am not prepared to engage in all the pre-cursory cr@p to fulfill my desires on an overnight. I prefer to just sit around and have a quiet beer with the lads and if something comes from that (with a female) well thats just a bonus.

Most of the cabin crew work that hard they are virtually never in the mood to come and have a drink after work anyway (sound like your wife?) so the whole argument is defunct.

It may not be the perfect job mate but for those of us who came back from years overseas, it's not all that bad. I for one never thought I would work in Oz again. There are improvements required and in the fullness of time we will hopefully realise some of those.

Party's are great but as I said, if your'e too tired it makes no difference.

[Wirraway]

Mon "Dominion Post" NZ

Virgin Blue begins staff hunt
08 September 2003
By MATHEW LOH HO-SANG AND EMILY WATT

Virgin Blue has started recruiting staff for a New Zealand-based operation, with advertisements for cabin crew and supervisors appearing in weekend newspapers.

The Brisbane-based carrier has said it intends to fly in New Zealand, but the advertisements are evidence of its commitment, which has been tested by the proposed alliance between Air New Zealand and Qantas.

Virgin Blue head of operations David Huttner confirmed the recruiting campaign meant the airline was gearing up for its entry into the New Zealand aviation market.

"We're recruiting staff and if someone puts two and two together and gets a new airline serving New Zealanders than congratulations to them," Mr Huttner said last night.

The advertisements state that "Virgin Blue Airlines in conjunction with Rishworth Aviation are seeking expressions from energetic performance-driven individuals who wish to become part of a new and exciting airline."

Mr Huttner said Rishworth was a well-established New Zealand aviation firm which was "assisting in the set-up process". He also confirmed that Virgin Blue was preparing an application for an air operations certificate so "we can fly our planes with a New Zealand flag".

However, though staff are being recruited, Mr Huttner declined to put a date on when he expected Virgin Blue's New Zealand operations to start.

"We have no fixed date . . . the AOC will require time, as will the recruitment and training of the best people, which is why we wanted to start the process as soon as possible."

Virgin Blue had a schedule to complete the air certificate and recruitment of cabin crew, pilots and engineering staff. "It's not like setting up a corner shop, and as training for cabin service takes time, we decided to recruit for those jobs first."

Mr Huttner would not disclose the staff numbers required.

"Our plan is to grow the airline over time, but the final number of staff and size of our operations will depend on, among other things, what resources and airport facilities are available."

He said Virgin Blue was still considering what routes it would fly and where its New Zealand headquarters would be.

===========================================

[woftam]

Gotta love the good spindoctors line "so we can fly our planes with a New Zealand flag".
Wouldn't have anything to do with reducing cabin crew numbers or wages even further would it?
Nah, of course not!
;)

[halas]

Interesting angle Foreign Worker, and probably close to the mark in many cases.

One thing though: As far as the "young studs... cracking an airline job", shouldn't that read '...Buying an airline job'.

Sperm Bank. You are leaving yourself wide open there with that post of yours;)

halas

[TIMMEEEE]

Woftam is spot on with the reference to using NZ registered a/c and cabin crew to reduce staff numbers.
I know one thing for a fact and thats JetConnect will lose about 30-40% of their pilots literally overnight to start up with Virgin Pacific.
Why?
The chance to fly better aircraft compared to J/C's ex AN/QF clapped out 737-300's and the fact that it'll probably offer a tad more money or conditions of which Jet Connect apparently have zilch.
I wonder how JetConnect will hold out with a large chunk of their pilots/F/A's going to the opposition?
Management at J/C dont do a thing to encourage people to stay there and lets face it - Virgin Pacific would be mad not to take on already endorsed 737 pilots that are operating in the country.

Rumour has it that JetConnect also has a turnover of around 30% of its F/A's each year because the pay is so paltry.
Their pilots arent too far off either so I'm told.

[Gnadenburg]

Foreign Worker

What are the big buck jobs VB pilots are flocking too?

Don't you think VB pilots, and now with the globalisation of the Kiwis, may be contributing to a world where well paid aviation jobs are even fewer and farther between?

Initially some found it amusing that QF wages were under pressure-no more Harbour views for QF pilots etc-but the reality and rot are setting in very quickly.

Draw a line in the sand. Easyjet and Ryanair aren't what you think mate!

But do name a couple of the big buck jobs with a mind for lifestyle, long term career and family.

[wessex19]

What I don't understand is, with only about 4 million kiwis existing on the planet, why is it no matter where I travel on this planet, I seem to meet one almost daily that will "work for less bro, hey" !!! Its beggers belief how such a patriotic race of people will all jump ship so easily, but keep telling youse, "bro- NZid iz the bist country hey"
P.S. Helen Clarke, get a bloody haircut mate.

[Gnadenburg]

Wessex

This will be telling on the industry.

Kiwi labour is white, professional, cheap and globalised.


The big question is will QF again plant the TJ seed?

Captain TJ-Director Operations. Pacific Blue.

Another "chance" meeting at the University Cafe!

[Clive]

Sage words indeed Cruze !!!

[Servo]

Cruze Power, surely your post is a wind up. So it is ok that Kiwi's will prostitute themselves by accepting lower pay and conditions than the rest of the world, including their closest neighbour, Australia. All because they have little in terms of employment on offer in New Zealand.

It defies belief that both the kiwi tech crew and cabin crew will happily undermine the conditions that are offered here in Australia. Kiwi's stuffed up there own industry and are now having a go at ours. Some imbecile in the NZ CAA decided that a ratio of 1 to 50 Fa's per pax is sensible and pushed for a trans Tasman acceptance of standards etc. Politicians should be shot for allowing this to happen. What the f&^k is going on people?

How could Australian politicians allow the agreement to go ahead knowing that it would directly affect pay and conditions for Australian pilots and cabin crew. What did they expect? Surely they new that Kiwi's didn't receive the same conditions we have here regarding super, leave etc. It was only a matter of time before the gm's of both companies here in Australia realised that there was an easy way to immediately cut costs by creating even lower cost companies using NZ scab labour.

All this means is that the NZ operation for both Australian airlines will be used to reduce the conditions by setting one company against the other. If the Australians don't like it they will simply expand the NZ operation and reduce or curtail the expansion of the Australian operation until the workers fall into line like mindless bloody sheep.

The QF guys and gals were horrified and quite out spoken when it was learned what the VB crew were going to get paid. The shoe is on the other foot, with both companies looking down an even lower cost base of overseaes labour. Alot of VB staff are quite upset that they will not be going international (due to naming rights etc, which the new operation will not have to worry about) and that even some domestic operations may be operated by there lower paid kiwi counterparts on city pairs. A new lower standard has emerged. When will it stop? As it is pilots are alreading paying for the privilege of a jet endorsement, whats next? Us paying QF or VB to work for them instead of the other way around?

How did we allow this to happen? What are we going to do about it?

My last bit of faith in the industry has finally seeped into the sewer along with GD's and BG's souls. I hope the mongrels rot in hell.:mad:

[Vmo248]

So it is ok that Kiwi's will prostitute themselves by accepting lower pay and conditions

Hey its now legal over here!
;)

[Pimp Daddy]

using NZ scab labour

Hey Servo - did I miss something? Who's on strike that the Kiwis are scabbing for?

With the amount of disussion about such things on this forum one would have thouht you knew what the word meant.

BTW - we have Kiwis working with us, they get paid the same as us

[Gnadenburg]

Pimp Daddy

Remember what a scab was in your schooldays? A scab was another child who bludged off you. Playlunch etc. Quite common.

Sums up the Kiwi politicians reference defence and trade. And now their white and professional work force a competitive industry in a global market.

Not playing a race card but I feel that there will be an increased level of acceptance to the public. Even more palatable than Indian IT or foreign flagged ships. This will be grave for overpaid QF staff.

Cruise Power

Interesting perspective, convenient and one sided? The farmer's perspective? Who themselves became socialists asking for government handouts in the droughts soon after.

You ever talked to an Aussie shearer about that period? The standover violence on both sides.

I suppose a bit like talking to an 89er and a hero. Both believe the other contributed to the industries demise.

How True Blue is Virgin Blue?

Virgin Atlantic expanding over a route formerly crewed by Australians.

NZ pilot's leading the expansion wave and probably undercutting the Virgin Blue cost base.

Your being sodomised by Godfrey. Interested in how the pieces fall. A revitalised AFAP etc. .

[Willie Nelson]

I accept that the Kiwis will be offered these jobs with Pacific Blue first, however in fairness to them, just because the wage structure in many NZ industries is lower than OZ does not necessarily mean that they will be doing it tougher.

If for example the cost of living is ten percent lower and the wages are ten percent lower, then if I were a Kiwi I would see no problem at all. Unfortunately/fortunately, I am not in a position to comment on either.

Obviously, there is cause for concern when one pilot after another ultimately gets paid less for "making it in to the BIG time.......?" and from what I have read on PPRuNE Jet connect may well be more than cause for concern, however I do not believe there would be any wage (I would like to think salary) structure out yet.

Perhaps it is not time to get excited just yet. As Steve Liebman says "Be alert but not alarmed'

Ultimately, each airline will pay the price for crappy pay. Given; pilots may provide their own funding on endorsements but you cannot replace experienced crew easily, in house training beyond endorsement and check to line is time consuming and expensive and if the turnover remains high any statistician would surely agree that the likelihood for a hull loss will increase.

People will always be happy to purchase low cost tickets, however I have never heard anyone up the back of a jet on a dark and stormy night complaining that the guy up the front gets too much money....

[Servo]

What I said may have been harsh, a little over the top but........

If the Kiwi pilots, FA's, ground crew etc worked for exactly the same pay and conditions as their Australian counterparts then all things considered the "cost" structure would be identical. Landing fees would be the same, aircraft leasing and operation the same, fuel, the list goes on and on. The only difference is crewing costs.

Both companies are going to take advantage of the fact that it is simply cheaper labour and use it against their own work force. For Dixon and Godfrey it comes down to the bottom dollar, the more money that they "save" the bigger the bonuses, they couldn't care less about their current employees.

I am all for both companies having a "regional NZ" operation, employing locals to operate within NZ, but to be able to operate Australian domestic as well really stinks. A friend showed me a copy of the "email" what a joke. BG tries to justify the NZ operation because Qantas is doing this and Qantas is doing that and that Vb's current "cost" structure (ie already lower wages etc.) can't even compete........ therefore they need to lower the cost by employing NZ crews on lower wages. Both GM's realised that they simply could not directly reduce wages or take on a large number of unions(Qantas), so they side stepped it altogether and started a new company, completely legal yes, immoral you bet. The sad fact remains that this practice is happening all over the world.

Not many Kiwi (or Australian pilots, FA's etc) are going to say thanks but no thanks to a job, unfotunately both Gm's realise this and are going to use it to their full advantage, especially with the Trans Tasman recognition of rules and regulations etc. I wonder how much the Minister for Transport (Anderson) had to do with all this?:E

[Pimp Daddy]

Remember what a scab was in your schooldays? A scab was another child who bludged off you. Playlunch etc. Quite common.

Fair point Gnadenburg. School days are some what hazy these days so I had forgotten that interpretation.

Has any organisation (ie not management) done an analysis of how the "relative" pay rates compare taking into account the cost of living differences between Oz and UnZud and comparing to how those wages sit compared to other professions? (like teachers, nurses, doctors - not because they are simila to pilots in skillset but they are easily identifiable groups that translate well between the 2 countries)

Talking to Kiwi mates they freely acknowledge that the wages are higher over here, but that taxation hits those wages harder over here as well, not just directly, but with the stamp duties etc as well.

But there seems to be a lot of blame going on the Kiwis for this, the GMs are the one setting up this operation.

And Jetconnect is different to Virgin, Jetconnect was set up after the Qantas NZ franchise went down the gurgler, it just so happens that now it's being used as leverage (although most of us would argue that things don't "just happen" at the Rat).

[halas]

The comparison is easy Pimp Daddy.

Just look at how many New Zealanders are in Australia. And for that matter, the rest of the world.

It can't be that flash over there.

The "relative"s are all over the place.

halas

[Gnadenburg]

Cruze and Pimp

From the perspective of an Australian get the feeling the Virgin Group does little but take and rape.

Now the honeymoon period is over, expansion slowing, staff of Virgin Blue may get the similar feelings. The expansion going to English pilots and New Zealanders. Those rough reds Sir Richard sends for staff Xmas presents should be truely unpalatable now!

Very little investment in staff by the Virgin Group. Too expensive and no reciprocal loyalty. A shame really, wide body expansion would offer good career path and morale, building up another viable Australian International airline.

I hope the government forces the issue. The Virgin Group should invest in this country regarding an international arm. So hopefully, Virgin Atlantic is blocked on the Hong Kong-Sydney linkup and the rights go to QF,CX,Dragonair and a hint of availablity to an Australian based international arm of Virgin Blue.

The Virgin Group has no rightful business on this route and hopefully respective governments will make sense of this.

[frangatang]

Does VB have a pilot base in MEL now? And boes RB get first sniff of the hosties when he is down there?

[Chocks Away]

I know DragonAir took up some HK-Australia (SY?) rights, when AN went fowl but I'm not sure about Virgin Atlantic .

[Kaptin M]

Inch by inch, this thread, the other one by Slim Dusty - the name escapes me at the moment, Wiley's "Blue Singlets and thongs" and A bleak future for Aviation?" for the Rumours & News forum are coalescing towads the same finale.

Below is a post that I have just contributed on the R & N thread, however additionally as an observation because it was raised here, the scabs helped the airline companies (and the Government) in Australia remove one of their major hurdles wrt salary reduction. The AFAP - the main pilots' union.
AIPA is now, and will - IMO - come under ever-increasing pressure, along with the ACTU/TWU.
Anyway here's my opinion on things:

"There's also a thread running on the D & G forum along similar lines to this one, interestingly enough.

Perhaps as the thread starter there, Oz Ocker, has suggested in his latest post, on major contributing factor to the reason for pilots' salaries going the way they are, is because of the "Global Village" in which we all now supposedly reside.
The work that was once the domain of only white Anglo-Saxons is now extended to just about every race world-wide.
I am not basing my thoughts on racism, but on the REALITY of the situation - so no abuse please.
As we are well aware, pilots salaries varied markedly until the last 10 or 15 years. Pilots in Western countries were paid reasonably good salaries, achieved by their united (unionised) efforts, whereas pilots in developing countries took what they were dished out - but in general enjoyed salaries higher than than average, in their own countries

Pilots from Eastern Europe made some impact on salaries in many parts of the world as they migrated - for them a BIG salary increase, but for incumbent pilots it meant a substantial drop in earnings to compete.

Technology of new aircraft means that traditionally required skills of pilots, and training time required to learn new aircraft have been lessened. And so - for example - China now has thousands of pilots flying the SAME aircraft types as are flown in Western countries for around 1/10th of the pay.
The employers are well aware of this and would replace ALL of us today if that were possible, I'm sure.

One of the biggest obstacles that stands in their way are the unions, which is why we are constantly seeing them chipped away and busted.
Labour laws in many countries have been dramatically changed over the past decade or so, facilitating the influx of cheaper foreign labour as airlines of Western countries try to compete against former Eastern European and Asian airlines operating on a far lesser labour cost base. As these airlines grow, the Western world's companies - and their employees - will come under even further pressure to trim down their costs, or alternatively go bust.
The money that non-Western airlines must be stashing away in profits for future expansion must be phenomenal, and a worry to Western world companies.

IMHO, that is the reality of the situation - the future for ALL airline employees, in the west, will be lower wages until the situation stabilises, and increasing salaries for employees of the up-and-coming airlines in the developing countries.

I've had my differences with Carruthers before, however he also speaks a lot of truth - although we mightn't like hearing it."

[Wirraway]

www.virginblue.com.au

Agreement between shareholders paves way for Virgin Blue IPO

Virgin Blue is pleased to confirm that the company’s two major shareholders, Virgin Group and Patrick Corporation, have reached agreement regarding a restructured shareholders agreement, including terms for the company’s planned initial public offering (IPO).

Under the terms of the revised shareholders agreement:

Patrick Corporation will pay to Virgin Group A$240 million, with no further consideration required with respect to its current shareholding. This removes the escalator clause which was part of the previous shareholder agreement and which required that a further consideration was payable dependent upon the performance and valuation of the company.
The shareholders have agreed to the issuance of new equity capital to a value of A$400 million to facilitate the IPO.
“This restructured shareholders agreement fully aligns the interests of our two shareholders and paves the way for us to introduce new equity into our business” said Brett Godfrey, Virgin Blue Chief Executive.

“This capital raising when undertaken will give Virgin Blue a healthier balance sheet, greater flexibility in how it funds its growth and will put us in an even stronger position to respond to any aggressive action by our competitors.”

“Virgin Blue is now well established as a major player in the regional aviation sector and we look forward to offering the Australian travelling public an opportunity to participate in our future success.”

Godfrey concluded: “We’re a strong company with a loyal customer base and we’ll choose the best timing for bringing Virgin Blue to market. This may be in calendar 2003 or 2004. A final decision to proceed will be made by the Board based on market conditions and other
considerations.”

===========================================

[loungelizard]

And next on the scene come our Arab brothers.......EMIRATES over the wide blue yonder. From Oct Bne - Akl along with the current Syd and Mel sectors. Wide body, F, J and Econ class, classic inflight entertainment systems and stroll off at the other end stuffed with endless food and booze.

MMMMMMM, I wonder which of these the public will choose. ????

[Pimp Daddy]

MMMMMMM, I wonder which of these the public will choose. ????

Usually the cheapest, although sometimes the only choose the cheapest once.

[Scooter]

Things must be really bad according to a F/A friend in VB.
Their current recruitment and training is barely keeping up with their rates of resignation.
Low cost may be one thing but flogging the girls/guys into the ground whilst paying them lower wages will always mean expensive training.
A constant turnover of staff with low levels of experience dont help either.

[Rudder]

How the past repeats itself. The intital post could only refer to one of two people in the organisation.

Truely amazing. I'm surprised that it's taken this long for the crap to flow about enough that it's in the public arena.

[AN2002]

Does VB have a pilot base in MEL now? And boes RB get first sniff of the hosties when he is down there?

Of course - that's why he enforces the blue bikinis rule!