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I happened to be flying to the south of adelaide 3 weeks ago maintaining 5000 & the cloud base was 6000 much to my dismay both skydiving operations one at goolwa & one at Murray Bridge were operating in 8/8ths up to FL110. As my track was to pass both dropzones I decided to divert off track slightly to avoid a meatbomb crashing through the windscreen. As an ifr a/c I dont believe that i should have to do this to avoid these areas in those conditions. The a/c operating at Goolwa was not the normal a/c rego that is usually operating out of there but one of the a/c from Murray Bridge, is this the norm for the operator of these a/c to do this?. Also what has happened to the normal a/c that was doing the meatbombing out of goolwa? I havent heard it for about 2 months. To these pilots this is a warning next time this occurs I will put in a report to casa. Have the balls to stand up to the operator & skydivers & say no!. I know this has been a thrashed topic but it is more of a warning to those involved.
:yuk:
Wizofoz
3rd Sep 2003, 06:37
Sako,
Skydiving through cloud is, as far as I am aware, generally illegal (Picton did have a dispo for a trial at one stage, but I don't think anywhere else has)
HOWEVER....
Are you saying that had it been 8/8ths blue it would have been ok for you to transit the drop zones?
What difference would it have made? Are you suggesting that if it had been VMC you could have seen and avoided free-falling bodies doing 120kts straight down?
I'm not defending the skydivers actions, but your argument shows a lack of realistic airmanship on YOUR part.
Ang737
3rd Sep 2003, 09:39
Jumping through cloud is not illegal if you approval from CASA to do so. Check out the CAAP 152-1(0) "Parachuting Through Cloud:
Evaluation of applications by parachuting operators and issue of approvals by CASA".... for more information.
Sako. As for you being IFR what class of airspace were you flying in...? if so you should have been given seperation from VFR a/c.
Ang ;)
penetrator
3rd Sep 2003, 10:58
SAKO i couldnt agree with you more. In fact they shouldnt even have been given a warning.
Wizofoz only know of 1 DZ with the trial of jumping through cloud & im not sure if they still have that. As for SAKO not showing any airmanship that is a stupid statement on your behalf, he is in IMC
he has diverted around a vfr a/c that shouldnt even be above 5000' in these conditions. Im sure that if it was vfr conditions at the time SAKO & anybody for that matter would not have a problem in giving these places a wider berth. He may have even planned to do this but as conditions were not suitable for parachute ops above 4000' legally it would have been surprising to hear a 206 planning to drop from FL110.
Ang737 I dont think this DZ has that approval but will ask some people around thes area's. I also believe this would be the same a/c operator that has just recently been after a few more pilots for their a/c would these kind of operating conditions be why they have been looking for so long to find someone & why the previous pilots would have left.
Student-pilot
3rd Sep 2003, 14:40
As both aircraft where operating in controlled airspace and the drop A/C needs clearance to drop it would be almost impossible for you to have a "meat bomb" drop through your windscreen without you or the bomber being in the wrong!
Obviously you know that both these dropzones are active on weekends so why had you flight planned to fly through not one but both DZ's?
As for the cloud, the only responsibility the pilot has it to remain VFR if that means they are on top that it still legal it is up to the jumpers to decided if they get out or not, no legal responsibility for the pilot.
SP
snarek
3rd Sep 2003, 14:47
SP
Not sure of your last point, I think the pilot would be held responsible if an MB hit and AC.
Wiz, yeah but ... in VFR at least the MB pilot might be able to see the other AC, or the MBs themselves could and steer clear (you can also hear them, not much good above cloud).
But I agree, MBing through cloud aint that different and perhaps we need D-zones aroundthem and they must stay within them???
Of course all these problems will evaporate once NAS comes along :E (lure baited).
Whaddyarecon.
AK
Deep breaths now Sako....deep breaths, perhaps talk to someone before you follow up on your stern warning to those ball-less pilots lest they were operating legally and you look like a tosser! I have no idea if they were or not because I wasn't there, but I do know that I have obtained clearances to 'drop through cloud' and also been told to 'hold for IFR traffic passing underneath' and often the IFR traffic is vectored around the drop zone if you are cleared to drop through cloud.Even if it was perfect VMC control would make a drop clearance subject to any IFR nearby.
Anyone from down that way know what the rules are there? Just hope those guys/gals arent chugging through 5000ft of cloud without clearance or pitot heat and relying on one crusty old vacuum pump!
cjam. i have flown a skydive a/c and i take on board your point that it is possible to drop them through cloud but on this particular occsion i feel that it would have been most unlikeley that the a/c at goolwa in particular could have possibly been operating in vmc. having flown a skydive a/c in the past i would not have had my arse in that 206 in those wx conditions. some opperators lean on pilots to fly in wx that is very marginal and pilots want to keep the opperators happy as hours are hard come by at that level, but as the pilot we are the ones who will cop all the **** if things go wrong and all the others will run for cover, its not worth risking your career,
wizofoz / ang737 had i been in the area at the time they were about to exit the a/c i am sure approach would have provided separation and i am not saying an accident was narrowly avoided. i just feel that the pilots need to say no sometimes.
wizofoz had the wx been ok i would have planed to avoid the area, i had been in the are prior and the wx was pretty ordinary as a result i was quite surprised when i heard that they were up when i was on my way back.
it puts alot of pressure on the next pilot when " oh the last pilot used to fly in these conditions all the time"
Islander Jock
3rd Sep 2003, 18:50
Sako,
check your pvt messages.
bush mechanics
3rd Sep 2003, 18:52
The whole time I was flying jumpers (aprox 250 hours)We never had any dramas as above.Always had to get a drop clearance from ATC and if operating OCTA we always made all station broadcasts.The a/c in question is VH-KFI,I actually did some jumps from this a/c a few months back up north.Ive worked on and flown in alot worse.As far as DZs ,arnt they all marked as danger areas,and probaly be notamed?Personaly Id probaly plan to fly around these areas IFR or VFR!!!Why get your self in that situation in the first place.This is probaly why they put the word planning in the term flight Planning!!I actually know one of the owners of KFI and in my opinion hes very profesional,PS sorry about the spelling!!Soo who has the largest coconuts then?!!!
marreeman
3rd Sep 2003, 19:43
Well sako it appears that you have ruffled a few feathers with this post, probably the ones of some who partake in actions like you have described!.
Firstly student pilot, you are what your name implies - a student with no knowledge to back-up your statments, you should remain a student for a while yet.
(1) It would be possible to have a MB come through the windscreen or a very close call because the MB's could be exiting the a/c 2 miles or so past the intended landing point, being the DZ. This is due to wind strength, direction, height at which the MB's are opening, what type of canopy they are flying etc. A clearance too is req'd & it is req'd no less than 2 minutes prior to the MB's exiting the a/c, so depending on speeds, this closure may be quicker than first thought.
(2) It is possible that sako's flight planned track did not go directly over the DZ, but in the released airspace, which could be up to a 10 mile radius of the DZ. So should he have diverted 10 miles off track when these a/c should not have been operating above 5000'?
(3) As for the cloud, "..the only responsibility the pilot has, is to remain VFR..." how did this a/c do this if it was 8/8ths cloud & VMC is vis 8km 1000' above or below cloud & 1500m horizontal distance from cloud? The pilot also has the responsibility of abiding by this rule PARACHUTISTS MUST NOT BE DROPPED IF DESCENT WILL RESULT IN ENTRY INTO CLOUD. Student pilot does this mean the pilot has no legal responsibility for dropping MB's through cloud? I dont think so! About the only thing that you have stated which is correct is that VFR on top is legal under certain conditions. I wont tell you these as I believe this would be good home work for you to look up. Remember you are still the PIC.
In case you are wondering AIP ENR5.5(2) has some info on the parachuting side of this.
Snarek, I agree. I think the pilot would be held responsible if a MB hit an a/c. I also agree MBing through cloud isn't that different as well if the a/c and the pilot is IFR and the parachute operation is run by the rules that allow jumping through cloud.
Cjam, so who should Sako talk to, huh??!! As you said, you were not there and obviously Sako was, and I guess for him to post this thread, conditions weren't legal. So you look like the tossa!!! It appears that Sako has posted here because he doesn't really want to take this action, so he is warning these people so that they stop doing this in the future before action has to be taken.
So if they were chugging through 2000' of cloud, does that make this kind of behaviour acceptable, Cjam??
These DZ's do not have the authority to drop through cloud. I wouldn't imagine that these a/c have dual vac pumps, dual electrical sources (eg. in IFR Cat) etc.
G2Dollar, I wouldn't call this operator very professional as the information that I have just found indicates that his a/c does not have single point restraints. If the weather gets too bad for the normal pilots, he gets in and flys the a/c. In the past, fuel gauges haven't worked and I also believe that a couple of years ago, one of these a/c (KFI or IRI) had an engine failure due to fuel starvation. Do you happen to know who does the maintenance on these a/c?
I would be just as worried about having a mid air collision especially if you are both octa it has happened to a/c in the past at major aerodromes in VMC so it could easily happen elswhere when conditions are IMC.
Wizofoz
4th Sep 2003, 05:34
marreeman,
Cjam, so who should Sako talk to, huh??!! As you said, you were not there and obviously Sako was, and I guess for him to post this thread, conditions weren't legal.
So, Sako "Was There" in the cockpit of the jump aircraft? Sakos comments seem to be based on the idea that HE didn't need to avoid the dropzones as HE asessed the conditions weren't suitable for jumping. Surley the only one who "was there" was the jump pilot! Remember, this guy isn't trying to fly hundreds of miles. All he needs is one hole to climb through, drop through and descend through. What may well be solid IFR en route is not necessarily illegal for jumping.
Sako, honestly, I've been there feeling rightious anger at what I thought were other pilots trangressions. But if you're not there in the aircraft you have no way of proving they did anything wrong, so threats to report them are simply pointless. If you want to demonstrate how much of a superior pilot you are, AVOID DZs regardless of the weather, get where you're going, pull off a greaser and go home.
marreeman
4th Sep 2003, 08:17
Wizofoz of course sako was not in the jump plane, but he was in the area operating in the same conditions, so im asuming that he is able to judge the actual weather at that time. 8/8ths means overcast conditions no holes to climb through. How far should you avoid the DZ's? If there was only one hole 10 miles from the DZ it is still illegal to drop the MB's. If there was that one hole sako would have been able to see it as well as the MB pilot & should not have anything to complain about. You are correct their is no way of proving it though your word against his. I wouldnt say sako is trying to be a superior pilot by this thread.
have a good day wiz:ok:
Ang737
4th Sep 2003, 09:59
Sako
I agree totally. I am flying meatbombing ops myself at the moment and if I dont like the look it I wont do it. Whats 0.5 in the logbook for a jump when your dead... Nothing...
Ang ;)
Heh heh heh, this is fun...No Mareeman, I don't think it is alright to fly through 2000ft of cloud, 5000ft was an arbitrary figure, I was implying that they shouldn't go IMC in a VFR a/c, sorry if that went over your head. Thanks for telling me that they aren't allowed to drop through cloud there though, I wasn't sure.
Who should Sorak talk to? This forum was an excellent start but unless he/she is 100% sure of the conditions and laws applying to both a/c at that exact time then commenting on the genitalia, or lack thereof, of the other pilot suggests that Sorak hasn't yet learned that these things need to be approached carefully at first because things are often not as they seem.
As for saying that Sako would have been able to see a hole within 10nm of the field from his position 1000ft below the cloud base, uuum, I disagree.
Sako, I take your last point.
If they are not allowed to drop through cloud there then I guess the chances are they were operating outside the rules. I am not trying to say one party is right and the other wrong but that wading in with name-calling can be an unwise tactic, hence the 'deep breaths' call. Or maybe it wasn't just you venting frustration....maybe the really really dedicated jump pilots of S.A. have started having their balls surgically removed to make their chutes more comfy. If so, can they have them replaced when they get to the airlines?
Laters, Cjam
Student-pilot
4th Sep 2003, 15:05
Thanks for your informative reply marreeman I now remember why I don't bother posting very often. Although my tag may suggest I’m a student you should check the date I signed up.
Even on a day where there is 30kts of wind all the way up, jumpers will generally only get out about 2nm past the DZ. I call that very close to the airfield. With clearance required at least 2 mins prior to drop the incoming AC (assuming a tas of 150kts) would have to be about 10 miles from the DZ to be within range of being hit. To get clearance with any aircraft let alone an IFR aircraft being in the immediate area won't happen!
So now to the cloud. Can anyone say for sure that there was not a hole? There is only one person who knows if the aircraft was operating within VFR limits, remember that thing called Special vfr?
I cannot say that it was legal as I was not there but lets give the pilot the benefit of the doubt.
Sako, if you have a problem with something go to the source of the problem, give them a call they are in the phone book, if you don't like the response to your call then take further action but just remember its a small industry especially in Adelaide.
wizofoz i am not for one minute claiming that i am a better pilot than the next guy or trying to prove myself as superior, as marreeman has pointed out (thanks) and unfortunately its been a while since i pulled of a greaser. the point i am trying to make and i am sure you and others understand is pilots shouldnt be risking so much just to keep some empty headed skydivers happy, remember those emptyheads who sit down the back fat dumb and happy think they know a bit about flying but as we all know what they know about it wouldnt fill a stamp, and i bet if they got hurt and the could take legal action against you for some reason they would be lining up at the lawyers office on monday morning. CHEERS
bush mechanics
4th Sep 2003, 19:33
Sako ,Soo all skydivers are emptyheads!!!Maybe If you got to know some of them you would find out that lots of these people come from all walks of life,One of my AFF instuctors is a doctor!Another is a Machenist building underground mineing machinery!!
Soo old mate maybe Its you who is the Emptyhead!!!!?
Marreman,The individual I know who is part owner of KFI is not only a pro but a very nice chap,You can learn things from people with experience.Single point restraints!On a number of my jumps I exited first before 2 tandems,Allways the tandem pax were clipped in while i got out.To say people are shonks when we dont realy know the facts is the biggest problem in GA!!!
student pilot you mentioned special vfr, i was flying a jump plane a few years ago and i requested special vfr, i was told by atc to telephone them when i landed, they gave me clearance to opp special vfr for that jump but in the phone call that followed i was told that special vfr is only available for a/c transiting an area and therefore sky dive opps were not to be granted it for the purpose of getting up and down. i sought clarification and was led to believe that atc was correct in there understanding. this was a few years ago though and it may have since changed. your thoughts ?
if the pilot was forced to opp spec. vfr i wonder how likely it is that the jumpers wont enter cloud on the way down. its a very grey area
gottom2dollar no i am not saying all skydivers are fools, only the ones who put pressure on pilots to fly in poor wx, as for doctors lawyers machin opperators etc, some times these people have inflated oppinions of there knowledge and capabilities outside of there chosen field, just as not being able to read or write wouldnt automatically make you a bad skydiver (or pilot) being a doctor/ judge doesnt automatically make you a responsible jumper /pilot
shane warne great cricket brain but in public brain goes into neutral
marreeman
4th Sep 2003, 20:27
Student I dont bother checking up on peoples profile because it doesnt bother me but since you are offering ah signed up in 99 so, you could still be a student pilot with your lack of knowledge of the rules. when replying with statements about the rules make sure you (A) either know them or (B) know where to find them then use this new found information to reply.
Yes i do remember that thing called special VFR however, special VFR is for a/c in CTR or a/c in CTA entering or leaving a CTR zone as goolwa & murray bridge are in a CTA area only they should not receive spacial VFR. SAKO LOOKS LIKE YOU BEAT ME TO THIS!
g2dollar I Happened to inside vh-iri about 6 weeks ago & Guess what no restrainst even fitted! However i dont know about vh-kfi. I dont agree that all skydivers are emptyheads olnly 98% of them.
"Skydivers are empty heads who know nothing about aviation".
Unfortunately it is this pilot attitude as to why I am sure alot of skydivers treat the drivers like dirt.
Picture this - 10 skydivers on an aircraft of which 5 are tandem masters with 5,000 jumps each. That is a total of 25,000 take- offs although not many landings.
Ignore that experience (admittedly, observing only) and you are ignoring the often valuable opinions/observations of people who have spent a lot of time in aircraft. First lessons in CRM, perhaps?
The problem with some skydivers is a little knowledge is dangerous, and definately, about 5% of skydivers are some of the biggest tossers to ever get in an aircraft - but I am sure they say the same about us - and they are probably right.
A lot of the jumpers I worked with were quite smart, (some were incredibly dumb,) but even the smart ones often had no idea about things that are quite dangerous in a/c , like having an aft c of g beyond limits, flying through cloud for extended periods in VFR aircraft, that sort of thing. I guess most of us wouldn't if we had never been taught. They do these things a few times with a pilot that is willing and nothing seems too bad to them, so they don't realise how easily the situation could have turned ugly, then when a pilot comes along and says no they think he's a pussy. That is my generalisation for the day.
g2dollar i get the feling that you are reasonably close to the action regarding this topic. in one of the threads it is suggested that one of the a/c involved doesnt even have restraints fitted or they just may not have been fitted at that time. if this was or is the case its not only illegal, in wich case the pilot leaves himself open to all sorts of legal action, should something go wrong or if the a/c was inspected, but its also odd that a pilot would take such an unnecesary risk to his safety, after all with the pilot being belted in himself should an accident unfortunately happen who stops all those skydivers behinde the pilot hitting the dashboard then the engine? ahhh a very crushed pilot.
IF it is true that one of the a/c has no restraints fitted it makes makes you wonder how important safety is to those " very professional opperators "
iam sure those smart doctors /machine builders etc. put ther seat belts on when they drive ther car to the shops at 60 kph but its ok to thunder down the runway at 120 kph with no belt on, i suppose the pilot is there air bag
bush mechanics
5th Sep 2003, 22:06
Marreman,
Like I said before Im only talking about KFI,Ypu sound like the typical arm chair expert,Full of emptyhead!!!opinions.Soo you have a cpl?What did you do before that besides spit out the silver spoon.
marreeman
6th Sep 2003, 09:13
g2doller I know your only talking about kfi that is the one now operating at goolwa so could i assume that is where you are jumping from as well as a skydiving emptyhead, engineeeeer/pilot your also a psychic cause you guessed it mum & dad paid for my training straight out of school my first job was flying an airliner! yeah right! Like many others I have busted my balls to get my licence. I dont despute than when you got out of the a/c at 5000 the tandem pax's were strapped in but were they for the t/off & below 1000 my guess is none of you were coz its not cool for a skydiver to wear a restraint HUH! If the fan at the front stops below 1000 you will bail out right, good luck. I think you may be the armchair critic. ;)
penetrator
6th Sep 2003, 18:55
Well well well & the search for a jump pilot by this operator goes on. This position has now been advertised in a paper at ceduna.
bush mechanics
7th Sep 2003, 18:36
Marreman,I think your attitude towards skydiving is the real issue here.Lets close them all down then there will be one less place for low time CPL to get some hours up.In my opinion and others the best jump pilots are jumpers them selfs.Too many people think its a matter of loading up getting to hight and getting them out.You have to be able to fly a heading ,which theses days some people cant do,Your radio calls have to be upto speed and your engine management has to be excellent.I know a couple of guys who left OZ with only a PPl and a few hundred hours in 182s jump flying and now are working some of the biggest drop zone in the US,Flying twin otters!!!The guys I worked with were realy good guys and not empty heads,We worked as a team and it was the best flying Ive done in a long time,Beats flying 4 alpha bravos to pupunya in the middle of summer!!Mate,let your guard down a little,you can learn things from the most un expecting people if you just take the time to listen!!
Happy Flying
gottom 2 dollar
you appear to be very keen on this topic. i get the feeling that u may be a jumper yourself. did u manage to check on the existence or NON EXISTENCE of the single point restraints in VH IRI. or was it just easier not to ask the hard question, or were too scared to ask the owner just incase he thought less of you because you actually had the balls to question him about this sefety issue.
i suspect you chose to avoid the question as you knew what the answer was going to be and you dont have the balls to say something just in case he wont let you fly/ jump any more. but dont worry old chap the world is full of spineless people like you who make it harder for the next pilot/jumper who actually tries to satisfy the legal requirements in the interest of everyones safety, including yours.
you mentioned holding a heading, radio calls and engine management as though it was a big deal well my friend any half reasonable cpl can do these and more whilst half asleep and humping his misses at the same time. its the ppl's / ppl jumpers like yourself who think it is a big deal when in fact its one of the first and most basic piloting skills pilots learn.
however i do take my hat off to those jumpers down the back who at FL 120 shout to the pilot 3 degrees left. They, like u, probably haven't entered the age of gps yet, but thats ok old chap at least on those days the jumpers can actually see the ground.
bush mechanics
8th Sep 2003, 21:01
Sako do you know how to read or what,I havnt ever been or seen VH -IRI.Get a grip you ****** how would you know what my qualifications are.ppl,cpl you wouldnt know.Mate the days of people looking upto pilots went I think not long after the 707 went to the grave.Im a pilot!!Who realy gives a flying !@#$Get a lifeMaybe you should get a missus instead of chaseing your mates!!Hard questions!!!!!come chew my BIG FAT HAIRY BALLS!!!
Hey guys ..... 5 big deep breaths please!!!?
Sako, you have point as I believe that "some" drop zones base their pilot related standards on the shonkiest pilot that has ever graced the DZ.
I also honestly believe that real knob end jumpers pressure new pilots with the old grossly exaggerated stories like "Jono used to hotload the re-fuel", actually illegal in a piston (and you can bet that Jono knew this and never actually hot re-fueled anyway), "Mick would always fly in these wx conditions" etc. etc. Ignore this type of crap and you will survive and keep your licence. But have a bit of a chuckle as well, as you can be assured that 6 months after you leave, your war stories, greatly exaggerated of course, will be told to pressure the next driver into pushing the envelope.
Still jump flying but on a tangent ..........the new proposed "skydive pilot" endorsement thingy that CASA is thinking of bringing in.
I heard that it will be run through flying schools, not by the APF. Hmmm, interesting. Hey meat bombers, what do you think?
Boney
currawong
9th Sep 2003, 10:13
Does anyone here, over the age of 6 that is, care to enlighten us with what the actual regs state regards these issues?
Are there any dispensations? Or are they just something the boss talks about but has never been able to show anyone?
Somebody please rescue the image of this industry before some journo or regulator reads the above "posts" and puts you all out of a job.
g2 dollar big hairy balls hey ? as i said b4 if you had any balls you would ask the owner of KFI about the apparent absence of single point restraints, as i understand he may be a part owner of VH IRI as well, so it shouldnt be too hard to find out ,but it may take some courage on your behalf to ask the question then post the truth on this forum.
ask some of your hairy balled skydiving mates they would know, and maybe u could all get together and get this lmportant safety issue resolved.
some of your mail seems to be getting a little aggresive could i recommend 2 valium and some relaxing tea. you aggresive little hairy balled skydiver l
hairy balls i havnt heard that for while ha ha ha
currawong they are required to use the restraints on t/off and until passing 1000 ft its in the cao. one of the posts on this forum actually gives the reference. it was hard to enforce as the pilot as u cant see if they have them on or not when u are belted in yourself all you can do is ask then to ensure that they are all strapped when u taxi and then ask again when enter the rwy.
as the pilot u can only do so much to provide a safe environment for your pax
however i feel that its a different issue if the pilot knows the a/c doesnt even have them fitted and still chooses to fly
g2 dollar maybe u could look in your sky dive manual and teii us what your association requires.
i dont think i have seen any reference towards having to have hairy balls though, maybee it appears in the APF manual, let us know
flaming_moe
9th Sep 2003, 11:38
Sako -a very interesting story to post. Being a jump plane pilot myself its about time pilots took more control/ responsibility for the airspace they are using. All to often meatbombers/ operators are pushing the limits and rules, which will in the end lead to an occurance of some kind.
Jumping in 8/8ths cloud? :mad: crazy!!!
Moe
g2dollar people like u who ae very close to the action can have a big impact on the way people opperate why not get fellow jumpers/pilots on side and make your DZ the one that leads the way
if you are also a pilot why not take the time to explain to the jumpers why you cant fly in certain wx conditions why they are reqd to use the restraints and what happens when u are flying in imc and the vac pump fails, when they tell you that they will just jump out you may want to explaine to them that they probably wont get to the door let alone open it with the g forces that will occure. let alone the poor tandem pax
bush mechanics
9th Sep 2003, 15:36
Sako maybe down there guys are getting the old back sack and crack wax but up here men are still men.On a serious note I doo believe there are operators not only skydiving that dont tow the line.Apart of life unfortuently.My self when i was flying jumpers (when)I never got my self pressured by the boss Ever!!I told him to go f!@# himself a few times,I know a few tandem masters who will back me up on this.Soo dont tell me I havnt got the BALS hairy or Shaved to stand up for my self.If you arnt happy about something dont do it.Most decent Bosses will respect you for it in the end.My old boss did.Maybe you should have started your post with Some skydivers!!
Ps the fellow I know who has a share in VH-KFI dosnt have anything to do with the other a/c you have mentioned.KFI just had a new engine installed,Not a requirement anymore in private ops!
marreeman
9th Sep 2003, 16:10
g2dollar this one is really hurting you isnt it. My attitude towards legal skydiving is great i dont have a problem with it however when pilots are exploited & have pressure put on them to fly illegally I do have a problem with it. I do believe that all skydiving operations which choose to put money over saftey in a manner which is being discussed by this thread should be shut down. Most DZ's these days are commercial operations therefore the public have a right to be as safe as possible. I dont dispute that some of the best jump pilots are jumpers I know a few that would fit into this category I also know a few jumpers that are pilots that would fit into the rouge pilot category. Who yet has said that pilots should be looked upto no body but some respect would be good! No need for the abuse 2dollar if you cant take peoples point of views then dont bother replying the truth can sting a little. Which brings me to my next point. Most skydivers would take up the sport as a hobbie not as a career or extra money making expedition soon as they know that money can be made its all good, when they hear that the pilot wants to be paid or paid more they winge like f**k and say they should be grateful for the hours what a load of crap!
Boney I think the flying schools that are going to teach this should have some experience in these ops & should also have input from the apf/ or reputable operators. I dont see why it should be an endorsement guess its just more money for CASA. If CASA were serious they would pay more attention to these operations, as they do to flying schools & charter operators, maybe even introduce an AOC type of system.
Currawong for the cloud AIP 5.5-4 (2) From memory Cao 29.1 Car 152. The only ones that would have to worry about being put out of a job because of this thread currawong are the shonks everybody else would have nothing to worry about.
g2dollar i dont understand bak crack wax, ah please explaine
and i am glad to hear that u do have balls hairy or not , it sounds like u really told your old boss. way to go
new engine hey probably because it got ****ed up by those kick arse jumpers come pilots. thats probably why they are advertising in the ceduna paper for pilots maybe the good ones cant be bothered putting up with the **** that goes on down there.
bush mechanics
9th Sep 2003, 19:58
Marreman,Mate no sting here,But Its not only DZs who you should be concerned about,what about all the shonk GA companys.Soo as a profesionall pilot who are we to say one side of the industry is good and the other bad?Know just to clear something up,I havnt been to the DZs in question,(Adelaide area) like i said early I did some jumps with one of the companys from adelaide while they were on tour up north,I dont know what happens down there soo Im not in a position to speculate, but I do know my dealings with them were very professional
I will also add I havnt flown many Fun Jumpers just tandems,The two I worked with were great guys,We all worked as a team and got the job done Legally!!
Sako the reason they changed the engine was because the old one made it to engine manafacturesTBO(full life)Soo the must be doing something right.Happy days
Marreman you mentioned pilots getting pressured!The reason they have pressure is because the other pilots telling them too stand up for them selfs are normally the ones waiting inline for the next position,Think about that!!!Friend or Phoa!!
Bit of a peach hey Gordon
9th Sep 2003, 22:53
Do the Darwin jump mob supply pilots with chutes now, I thought it was federation rules for the driver to be kitted out and was always amazed when gottem 2 would drop them without wearing one, Now that does take two big hairy ones.
Especially after the caravan accident.
Boney
10th Sep 2003, 08:06
The parachute for the driver
Not legally required. I believe this is about to change with it being a requirement for it to be supplied by early next year.
Single point restraints
If you operate without them, you are bloody mad. When you go in you will have a sh!tload of people pushing your brains and guts into the instrument panel at high speed, very messy. The was a case in Europe a few years back where a machine went in and one of the camera mans helmets went racing threw the cabin decapitating half people on it's way.
Pay
Because parachuting is conducted under private ops, they are not legally required to pay the drivers at all. One day, a couple of hundred years from now, meat bombers will be treated with just a little respect from the parachuting industry and will be paid at a fare rate.
Meat Bomber Endorsement
Hmmm, interesting one. CASA is looking at doing this but a few interesting points.
* Why is it going to be run by flying schools? No disrespect, but flying schools know nothing about meat bombing, and how could they be expected to?
* Here we go again, more bloody money. I can only assume this 'endorsement' (and I have it on good authority) will be be paid by the long financially struggling poor buggar with 200 hrs. that is just trying to have a go.
* If the 'endorsement' thingy ends up happening, how about CASA look at the fact that the drivers are not covered in any way, shape or form by any sort of award due to fact it is operated under private ops. I believe the average meat bomber is working in this country for about $5-$8/hr after those scumbags in Canberra take their share. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.
But it will never change because average Joe Public thinks pilots are over paid and under worked. You will never see good old Ray Martin doing a story on GA drivers living in aeroplanes earning $18,000pa because it is not a 'good time' story. The media much prefers to do a story on a long haul truck driver with 5 kids that earns $800/week but is supposed to earn a 1,000.
There is a certain reason why good old Ray would not be able to do a similiar 'good time story' - not many GA drivers are able to actually have the luxury of family and a woman that actually enjoys being with a glorified broke bum.
Watch out for AIDS boys - the old Aviation Induced Devorce Syndrome, very contagious, where ever Avgas is sold!!!!!!!
Boney
is peach gordon saying that u g2dollar fly or have flown without a rig on, wow u have got big balls. sorry big HAIRY balls
Hey Boney, I agree with most of your last post except that I think that things will change, (for parachuting), they already have. The smaller DZ's are struggling now, and large tandem factories are getting stronger, if they end up needing an AOC it will only be the big ones that survive. I know skydive pilots that are taking home $1000 after tax per week in summer and enough to survive in winter. None of them work for small outfits. I reckon (and may be wrong) that in five years or so there will be less small outfits and the bigger ones will be paying an ok wage for people to fly their turbines up and down.
Cheers, Cjam
bush mechanics
11th Sep 2003, 20:00
Peach,Sako.Nothing to do with balls just plain stupidity on my behalf.It wasnt a legal requirement but hey we all or do dumb things now,dont we.Peach if you are who i think you are,Pigs do fly?
Islander Jock
11th Sep 2003, 23:40
Boney,
* Why is it going to be run by flying schools? No disrespect, but flying schools know nothing about meat bombing, and how could they be expected to?
Have to disagree with that one. Quite a few flying schools have instructors at all levels with a good deal of jump flying experience. Under the current classification of PJE as pvt ops giving the DZ operators any delegation for this would be akin to letting the fox loose in the chicken coop. At least the training conducted by an AOC holding training establishment will (or should) provide some level of accountability.