RAF NCA or remain a civi ?

[Finals21Left]

Im 30 which makes me too old for everything except NCO Aricrew, which is great cos Aircrew or NCO Airecrew is what I wanted to do in the RAF anyway.

However, after reading this forum considerably over the passed few weeks there seems to be a distinct air of unhappiness in the NCA arena, lots of people moving on... :confused: lots of people sounding very fed up and pi$$ed off with it all.

I know there have been considerable changes in the NCA branches and pay and conditions have caused a large number to walk, hence the raising of upper age from 29 to 34 Im guessing...

So come on WSops and ALMs say something good about the job, tell me its worth applying and pushing myself through OASC at my ripe old age then 12 months training and tell me I will have the chance to re-muster to pilot after 2 weeks on the job :ok: dream on...SAR ALM would be my first choice.

Im a bit of a patriot at heart and want to do my bit but having spent 10 yrs building a good career in civi street - should I leave it behind ?

Any help, advice, or pi$$ taking comments gratefully received...

[bigley]

I detect a little bit of fishing going on here!

[6nandneutral]

Try using a spellchucker

[Spot 4]

Might as well get to the point:

Its ****e, stay a civvie!!

Its getting worse in the future, cause all the good guys are leaving (myself included!) leaving all the b0II0x to those that cannot get out yet. Discontent is at an all time high, proving that quality of life is still a factor important to individuals. ....and that it takes a LOT of money to dilute that theory, and there is not enough of that around. As a child this is all I wanted to do, and I am very disappointed to be leaving something that should be a fantastic way of life, yet is full of back stabbing, promise breaking, politically correct, financial restraining naffness. ..and that is before I start on the new crew duty time that ensures a fatal accident is just around the corner.

Whilst the training system is good, a 30+ year old will struggle with the learning curve.

[The Gorilla]

SPOT 4

Couldn't agree with you more matey!!

The grass out here in civvie street might not appear to be greener but that's just because it is a different kind of grass!!

I would not advise any one to join up as NCA.

:ok:

[c130 alm]

Well I beg to differ. You get people moaning about any job they do. I suspect they are the "always away living in tents with the Army" Helicopter guys. (The Gorilla, Spot 4) . But I could be wrong. On the other hand I stay in the best hotels all round the world and love doing it. I would recomend it to anyone and so would all my mates. Get in touch if you want to know more Finals21left.

:ok:

[J.A.F.O.]

I was going to type CIVVIE in the biggest letters imaginable, believe me it would have been visible from space. However, it's a matter of where you are in your life. I happen to think it was about the greatest thing I could have done at 20 and the worst thing to still be doing at 30.

I enjoyed a lot of it but loathed a lot more and happen to be happier in Civvie street, horses for courses, I suppose, but, sticking to that equine analogy, only you can decide whether you are far enough across the stream to make changing horses unwise.

I'm afraid that I'm not able to tell you that it's all wonderful and you'll be headhunted by the Red Arrows by Tuesday, I'm a little out of date but I don't think anything changes that much. The changes and whinges were there 15 years ago and they'll be there in 15 years time. In fact, thinking about it, CIVVIE

[The Gorilla]

C130

Yep you are wrong!

:O

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

CIVVIE:ok:

Type "looking to join as NCA" into the RAF thesaurus and I think you will find it says "prepare for an extended period of service in Nothern Scotland":yuk: Cos trust me that's where you WILL go fella.

Enjoyed rotary but the lifestyle sucks, quite enjoy fixed wing but the lifestyle is starting to suck:sad: but with 9 years to 55 I am well past my sell by date so will stick it out.

Spot and the Gorilla have got it quite right so go with their advice, also heed my warning as regards to what you will end up doing:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Finals21Left]

Ok so a majority of donts and one do it....not exactly feeling the positive energy here chaps...

If I could maybe just ask a question of you guys who responded and said DONT (Gorilla, JAFA, Wilts, Spot4).

Without being too specific, what is it that sucks, what are the moans and groans - is it the RAF in general or NCO Aircrew itself that is so bad, is it pay/conditions etc?

Maybe the RAF should get you guys to head up their recruitment drive for rear crew ;)

Thanks in advance for any more responses :ok:

[The Gorilla]

Finals

Too much to do with too few resources. The ever increasing temptation from senior management to cut safety corners to get the job done and therefore look good in the process.

The recruiters talk a good story, but when it comes down to it the RAF pays lip service to almost all of its current management strategies.

Morale is EXTREMELY low but people soldier on. They get through the daily grind by whinging. The working environment throughout the whole of the RAF is pretty poor.

As you can see from the news, the MOD is not a good organisation to be working for at any level. There are major quality of life issues that need to be addressed. Even now the pathetic adverts on TV show great opportunities for sport. Not so I am afraid!!

Take my advice and seek a career elsewhere. I am regarded as being a cynic and disloyal for leaving. But after 28 years service, 15 as NCA I decided that the job was no longer worth doing, even for £45 k per year. The money is brilliant but for that money you get a lot of sh*te on a daily basis.

Bottom line, it used to safe, it used to fun, and it used to be a pleasure and an honour to work for the RAF. Today it is none of these and truly, the lunatics are running the asylum!!

Find a job with real prospects!!
Above all be happy!!!



:ok:

[TAC Queen]

Finals21left
NCA is a good job, in all its different trades. It can be rewarding, challenging and you can go round the world staying in nice hotels.
BUT!
It is also extremely hard work, I work longer hours with less time out of work than I ever have, The notion of aircrew starting work at 10:00 and knocking off at13:00 is I’m sad to say I thing of the past. If you get through selection and then all the courses and then through your OCU you will still be working for the rest of your career keeping current and up with the latest rules and regulations.
You will be sent to some absolute godforsaken places in the world and have a thou rally miserable time and when you return, your thanks will be some crap duty or other similar puerile job just to say thank you for all your hard work.
The life of swanking around the world and staying in hotels is a steadily declining bonus on my current fleet and is not much of a player on rotary.
BUT
Don’t let that put you off; I thou rally enjoy my job. I will add that I am slowly loosing it with other people who it seams sole task in life is to interfere and penny pinch. But I know that life out side is not all a bed of roses. I find this life very rewarding and I constantly have to think on my feet. (Yes before you all start it because I’m a bit slow).
If you want a challenge and something a little different and are willing to work hard every day until you leave then go for it. I have found that no matter what job you do their will always be people who will but It down and moan about how much they hate it and how its not as good as it use to be.
Life is what you make of it and the job is always changing, do what you want to do and see where it takes you
Good luck in what ever you decide.

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell.

[Yeller_Gait]

A small light at the end of a long tunnel, but there are now a few new NCA (WSOp) that are getting to stop off at Waddington (for a few years) on their way north, at least more than ever there used to be.

The job is enjoyable and rewarding, even if the hours are long, but for me the single biggest downer in the RAF is the "fun police";
1. you can no longer do the things that you used to be able to, at least not without filling in vast amounts of paperwork,
2. the place is being taken over by civvies who are all "jobsworth"
people
3. most of the admin/blunty world are more intent on empire building than in actually supporting those who do

enough for now

[Magic Mushroom]

F21L,
I am not NCA. However, as an AWACS matey I have flown with many of them for many years and have the utmost respect for them. Indeed, I used to be crewed up with Gorilla before he got so bitter!

All I will say is that there are still plenty of NCA who find the Service rewarding and challenging. Like any big organisation, not everything is perfect, and the penny pinching and PC police is particularly detrimental to morale. However, there are still fantastic opportunities to be had, and plenty of good guys around (even in the leadership).

Whilst the WSOp is a thinly veiled method to recruit more AEOp's, there will be an increasing number on the ISTAR force at Waddington. Indeed, I suspect that the E-3D, Nimrod R1 and Sentinel will eventually have a similar number of WSOp's than the MRA4 (or whatever it turns out to be!) fleet up north. Therefore, you may not be condemned to a life in Jockland.

I suggest you join. You can always PVR if you don't like it!
Best of luck however in whatever you do.
Regards,
M2

[maninblack]

Do keep in mind that the worst thing in the world for recruitment is asking a serving member of Betty Windsor's Scouts, Flying Circus or Rowing Club for a job recommendation.

It is endemic in all jobs except recruiting to whinge about it.

On the other hand, still being involved, albeit on a part time basis, I can confirm that the accountants and stamp lickers now rule.

If you want to find out, sign on and see it first hand.

[Arctic Tern]

F21L
Afraid I'm going to join in with those who thoroughly enjoyed my time as NCA.
I was lucky enough to make the break from the ASW game into SAR some years ago (like many others) and had a wonderful 8 years on yellow helicopters. The job was extremely rewarding (and still is) and the odd trip to the Falklands and working over Christmas were small stresses that didn't affect my enjoyment of the job. The UK SAR Force (RAF and RN) is the best in the world and over the next few years will be recruiting quite hard - if you can get selected as ALM then push-on. You could do a lot worse than work as a SAR Boy. BEWARE - If you are offered an ALM slot you could go to SH. These boys have really had the rough end of the deal over the last 10 - 15 years and are understandably p****d off at the moment. But again you should understand that the Loadie's job on SH is a rewarding and extremely demanding role that would offer a great deal of job satisfaction.
Bottom line - talk to as many NCA as you can, try and arrange a visit to Odiham, Lyneham and one of the SAR Flts, then make your decision. Rotary flying is great fun - don't be put-off.

Arctic

[RubiC Cube]

Do you want to do a job now that you won't be able to do in 10 years time? If so join and go back to doing what you are now when you've had enough, because if you don't you won't be able to later. So it boils down to how much you want to do a unique job.

[M134]

Finals21Left

There are some pretty bleak views and I have to say that I agree with them all. Another thing you may or may not know is that just as in civvy street your terms of employment can be changed however, unlike civvy street you have absolutely no representation to help you fight your and your peers corner.

A couple of people have said, “give it a go, and if you don’t like it leave”. Well that could be the worst mistake of your life. Say you don’t like it during training, “Hey no-one enjoys the training, and it’s great when you get on a squadron”. You get to the Sqn and still don’t like it. You’re now 32 years old with very little chance of getting out before 34. This would probably more like 38 as the RAF will try and keep you for six years post operational conversion to amortise training costs.

What if you like it? Well I really don’t think I’ve met any aircrew that haven’t enjoyed their first tour. It’s normally around 1.5 tours that people start to see through the cracks in the system. But hey, the flying's fun, I’ll stick it out until my 22 year point, pull a handy pension and do something else with my life.

This is where you need to think long and hard. Coming in at 30 means you won’t be able to build a pension before you are (waits for flack from over 50’s) able to start afresh at something else. The pensions, I should add, are not what you would wish to live on. If you were an ALM the best you could achieve at the moment would be around 10K. So you kiss of the idea of the pension and just do 12 years. You’re 42 with a very specialised skill set, starting civvy life again from the bottom.

Sorry to be a pessimist but do think on. Anyway, good luck whichever way you go

M134

[The Gorilla]

F21L

As much as I respect Magic Mushroom (and I do!)
he is neither Non Commissioned or NCA!!

I remustered to NCA from groundcrew at the age of 30. I know how hard it is to do what you are planning. Ignore any one who says join up and if you don't like it PVR. That is the worst thing you could possibly do.

And I am not bitter, indeed quite the opposite. I now work for a civilian company who treats its people as their most important resource. I have seen the light from both sides and I urge you to consider very carefully what you are doing. Go visit the stations, see for yourself and speak to the guys involved. Most NCA will give it to you straight.

Good luck, you will need copious quantities of it if you go down the NCA route!!

:ok:

[Charlie Luncher]

Dude
What no one has told you yet is that the RAF has changed over the last decade or so. The same was probably said from 1925-1935, and there are a lot of people who are not happy with the changes enforced on them. There are many truths in many of the posts above, but there are few mentions of some of the most important things, in my opinion. They are; you will do and see things that no one ever has, you will see countries nice and not so nice off the beaten track. You will also get the chance to make a difference to peoples lives. That was the most important thing to me.
I was a direct entrant and left after 13 yrs, to exploit an option that was put to me. If that option had not come up I would be in the Frozen North of Jockland still doing what I loved being part of a crew.
I was humbled and honoured to have served with some of the best people I have ever met. There will be bad days and good days if the former beomes more than the latter then move on but do so with a long term plan.
I still think I would follow the same career path and still would get in to trouble.
As for the moaning minnies above bring it on ya big bunch of girls :}
Standing well clear of the parapet with Brevet proudly worn on my left breast.
Charlie sends

[dopeonarope]

Hmmmm....... I am at a cross roads myself, Was ALM SAR winchman until recently and PVR'd after 15 years service, to head to warmer (May - Oct) and bloody freezing (Nov - Apr) climes in search of that new life in the new world..... is it better in civvy street or as NCA?

I really enjoyed my career in RAF both as GC and Aircrew (albeit the NI Tour) and had the best job as NCA prior to leaving. I chose to leave for many reasons, family being the primary reason, but now, we as a family are deciding was the move worth it..... where else can you get a pretty good wage for not the hardest work in the world (I include SH boys in that as well!), Sports, social life, adventurous training opprtunities, working with some of the best people in the world and still being able to see large amounts of the world.

I chose to leave, work overseas, battle with government departments to prove my abilities (what abilities some of you out there who know me will ask :D ) live in a country with arguably one of the best standards of living (UN say that); yet we still would like to return to Uk and become part of THE BEST AIR FORCE in the world.

I would argue that the RAF is a good place for a career, NCA is a fantastic position... yes we all moan about how the O Corps get this and that but its worth it. I at 34, who now works as a Paramedic, has to wash and clean my own vehicle (GCs did all the clean up after I'd finished with a real messy job on SAR ;) ) earns comparable wages albeit dollars here. But its not everything.

To answer the original post..... 30 years old..... go for it... there are plenty who have done it and had a great career... SAR?..... I'll fight you for that place!:ok:

Hope to see lots of old pals soon wearing the blue uniform I used to and being called a growbag.... bring it on......

[Rude C'man]

Think long and hard about your choices. Right now it is clear that the system may not want us after aged 40 . There are a few ,that have been let free after 22 yrs service and a wealth of experience is leaving in the next few years. Its a bloody rewarding job , at times , it's just the walls get bigger and harder and the head hurts more than it used to! Up to you matey tuff choice.

[Finals21Left]

Despite quite a few down sides, it sounds like the overall ups make up for them if you have the right frame of mind, it seems that its pretty much thumbs up :ok: for NCA.

I really appreciate everyone comments its helping me to make a tricky decision, 30 is a bit late but if I dont do it now I fear I will regret it for the rest of my days - so Im willing to say 'balls' to what happens at 42 if I come out for now, I will have to rely on Civie skills already gained and struggle for a while... :(

Incidently what do ALM's or other NCA trades do in Civie street, seems like a niche skill set ?

For those who can still be bothered to respond to my inane requests for information...
What can you guys tell me about a typical week in the the life of an ALM? What periods of your time are spent in the air, on the ground, doing paperwork - I appreciate that depending on your sqn and rotary/fixed these will be different but Im trying to get a truthful view (rather than believe every word the glossy recruitment brochure has to say).

What about advancement within NCA trade to officer perhaps or remustering to other trades, pilot, ATC etc - does it ever happen or must you remain NCA for the duration of your career ?

Once again thanks for wasting valuable plastic off your keyboards to answer.

[I was Lucky_B*]

You'll pleased to know that one of the benefits of replacing all the airman Aircrew trades with one NCA trade in which we are all WSOps, is to allow NCA that get bored in one trade group to swap to another, so and AEOp could become an ALM and vice versa!

This will be achieved by making as much of our basic training as common as possible and once this phase is complete you can choose which branch to go for! However this will also depend on which areas you are paticularly good at, and also, god forbid, which branch may be drastically short, and needs people to fill it.

So although you may join wanting to be an ALM, you may actually end up being something else!!

On the commissioning side you will already be too late! WSOps can only go for WSOs up to age 31, after that, tough!

I won't bore you with any of the other problems to be encountered, but I haven't noticed if you're married. It's a singly game as the biggest downfall for whichever branch you end up in is the messing around of family life!:(

[J.A.F.O.]

Finals

It seems as though you've made your mind up already and, I have to say, that I agree with your sentiment that this is the last chance and there's nothing worse in the world than the words "if only".

I clearly enjoyed much of my time as, ten years later, I'm still here trying to sneak a look at what's going on in the world I left. So, if you've made your mind up to go for it, even after all of the above comments, then you'll never work with a finer bunch of people and you'll probably never be prouder (at work anyway) than when they stick that brevet on your chest.

JAFO

[The Gorilla]

Finals

Making the decision is the hardest part, seems you have made yours. Please just be aware that the new NCA debacle is still not set in concrete. The new Pay spine has nothing in writing and I was lucky is quite right. You may be led to believe that you are being recruited as an ALM. BUT they can stream you during training so that you end up as a WSop on Nimrods at HMP Kinloss. By that point you will be well and truly up the creek with paddles nil.

I wish you the very best of luck in your endeavours


:ok:

[TAC Queen]

In response to your last request, I don’t mean to pass the buck, but I don’t think their is a typical day.

If you wanted to break it down you would have to go into each NCA specialisation separately.
My best advice is to try and contact user units and arrange a visit. Go and see for yourself.
Good luck

All spelling mistakes are because I can't spell
:ok:

[Finals21Left]

Well I was pretty confident to go for it, but now Im a bit concerned by a couple of your comments 'I Was Lucky B' in particular...

The NCA life is recommended for singlys only?...
I am married - is it likely I wont be after a few years as NCA do you suspect? ;) I thought that life for RAF families (despite the moving every few years) was generally good (good social life, community spirit, families looked after etc?) or did you mean its the time spent away from home that messes them about rather than just being involved with you and the mob?

Finals21 :ugh:

[Spot 4]

Whilst there may be an exception to the norm, I have been in several sqns over lots of years and the care of families has always been apalling. RAF PMC do not give an iota of consideration to family stability, they cant, because they simply do not have the luxury of over-manning. Flowers as a token gesture to a family arrival or hospital visit are about as close as you are going to get.

I think that in fairness, you wouldnt even get that if you were employed in civilian life. Just dont over rate the family atmosphere of the military. It gauls me to say that Army Regts tend to be a lot better at this then the RAF.

Family life is ok whilst you are prepared to live in a married quarter and move many times in a short period (5 times in 18 months was my record), once settled into your own home the problems start. Then again you can bank on certain postings enabling you to be a resident at a unit for a long time, such as a Nimrod mate @ Ice Station Kilo, Chinook chap @ Odiham, or Merlin fr^&8 @ Benson!

[Training Risky]

I think there may be a problem with your PC matey, did you mean to type Merlin FREAK?

I'm sure you did.:E :ok:

[Finals21Left]

Well the debacle still goes on...

Popped down to the careers office had a nice chat with a really nice Flt/Lt, watched a video about OASC and then mainly all about IOT with no empasis on NCA sadly...they recommended just getting my ass down to OASC and see where it goes from there.

They seemed to not know about the age 31 rule for WSOp to WSO...?

[day1-week1]

At the start of this thread, one of the replies stated that at the age of 30 you might find it a steep learning curve. Having just been through the system at the age og 30+ I can say that is pretty much Bol*%cks. There's no doubt that the courses invole a lot of work over a long period, however I found it was the young DE's (a fair proportion who were graduates) who found it the hardest and were the first to be chopped. If your mature with a family then the consequences of failing are that much more serious than it is for some young lad, who with his crap degree from some ex-poly and because the RAF made him a sgt after 3 months, thinks that the NCA course will be a doddle.

[The Gorilla]

Day 1

My experience was the same as you, the course wasn't a problem.

It's what happens to you once you hit the Sqn's at 30 plus that's the problem matey! That is when the true uphill struggle begins!!

:ok:

[Tiger_mate]

Vintage students:

In a recent previous life I had the task of 1 on 1 instructing `Problem children` to maintain course standards.
Anybody that believes that a 30+ year old is as receptive as a 20 year old is misguided.
Sadly I found that the "system" was always partially at fault. That said a young monkey will see and do, an old one will see and try to understand. Admirable, but not always sucessfull.
The comments regarding what is at stake are fair ones, but that alone will not make you better then a young, intelligent and motivated individual, and definately no better then a 25 year old streetwise ex tradesman who knows how to behave. (read that as "play the game")

T_M
ex 6FTS staff
ex 2 FTS staff