a little rumour

[kym]

I have heard that jet connex is the next budget airline for Qantas, operating the 717's. (which are taking over the national jet services routes) so this would mean that this is the new budget airline Dixon mentioned a week ago, even though he did'nt publicly mention a name then on Tv.

this is where it gets interesting is that the 717's will be operating cheaper than the virgin 737,s over the same routes. this is because of the reliabilty of the 717, and the advanced technology on board the aircraft.

jet connex will also be purchasing more 717's to operate on the east coast. if this is so then the aviation industry is in for a shake up once more. :ok:

Kym

[nomorecatering]

The low budget airline that Geoff Dixon mentioned is already flying and has been for some years..........its called Impulse. They already have 4 ex Hawian airlines 717's comming...why else would purchasing be buying parts for a rear to front galley reconfig. Hawian 717s are the only ones to have rear galleys.

[kym]

ahhh but the impulse name will soon be dead;)

[puff]

According to the hawaiian seatmaps for the 717 they have galleys mounted in the front as well.

[The Spin Doctor]

Yeah sure!

From what I hear the 717's are unsuitable for the network plus surely you don't need a galley for a no frills airlines.

[kym]

I don't think galleys are a concern yet.

from a profit margin point of view Impulse(jetconnex) will be hauling the same number of pax for less time in the air. that can only mean that the twenty percent savings will be made by the 717's over the 146's.
already the 717's do the trip from Mackay to Brisbane half n hour less than the 146's.

[Capt Claret]

Geez Kym, are your 717s on steroids?

half an hour saving on a 431nm (stright line) route??? :hmm:

That'd require a TAS in the region of 540 kts. Boeing's Tech Specs put typical 717 cruise speed at 504mph (440 kts)/M0.77.

If you're going to embellish you need to be more realistic. :ugh:

[kym]

Oh it had a tail wind......:p

[MoFo]

Jeez Kym
You must be Dikkos missus to know so much inside information.

Mind if I ignore it like all the other hot rumours that are gunna happen.

[kym]

I heard it from one the horses mouths.....

and no it was not from Captain Dikko.......:{

[ditzyboy]

kym-
*FACT* Impulse is AIRCONNEX!!! Get it right. Jetconnect is the NZ subsidiary. Jetconnex doesn't exist, my friend.

*FACT* Virgin's cost per seat is less than the 717s as they cram more in. So that's hardly a level playing field. Not to mention Virgin's 737s are much more versatile. As lovely as they are the 717s just don't go far.

Oh and kym. Whatever pills you are taking.... Can I have some? :hmm:

nomorecatering-
*FACT*
Those rear cart stowages were purchased for trim reasons due to the heavy flight deck doors being installed at the front. It also enables us to offer full meals on double catered services vs. the current reduced product on Tassie and HTI flights. These cart stowages are behind the last row on both sides. There is space in each stowage for a full size cart, an Atlas box, and Atlas drawer. That is what the stowages are for. REALLY - conspiracy theories aside.

Hawaiian's 717's do not have a Galley 2 or toilet at the front. Instead of the rear port toilet they have two half carts - hardly a galley. They also only have one toilet. The galley they do have at the front is also two half carts. Not extactly stoage plus! If Impulse were to buy these 717s they would need to fit a full Galley 2 and a toilet at the front. And also remove the carts down the back and replace with a loo. Quite expensive if they were to do that. Have a good look at the QF and HA seatmaps for the 717s. The toilet and galley configs. are quite different. HA fit in 123 pax, and that includes a First Class cabin!!!

Capt Claret-
The pax VERY often comment on the reduced flying time of the 717. Especially just after the change over. Not sure about the 30 mins though! Did ROK-BNE in 38mins today...

[Capt Claret]

G'day Ditzy,

I'm not suggesting that the 717 isn't quicker. Really there's nothing I can think of that's slower! :{ But half n hour less, on a regular basis, just isn't realistic over such a short sector.

[balance]

Well, I just think we should all just calm down a little and stop listening to Kym's ridiculous wind ups.

[jafa]

I yuster fly them DC9s once, long ago and far away... pratts... 350 kts at 4.5 dme on dept., if I remember right, and 350 kts at 10 dme straight in... and I don't know if anyone ever found out how fast one would go if you forgot to set cruise power, the mach just kept creeping out.

Certainly no-one in a 737 ever got even close to passing one, except going the other way.

[hombre_007]

They should call the new airline-FRESH AIR :ok:

[bush mechanics]

Ive heard alot of people saying that once the 717 leases are up they are gone?Too anyone who actually flys them here in Oz!How would they go say flying up the guts,Adl-asp-dwn?
No Bull****ters thanks?

[Traffic]

Galleys...for the slaves that will row them.

GD is grasping at straws if he thinks setting up another low cost operator will do anything other than lower his price point in the market and destroy the main brand.

Australian Airlines is a case in point. New paint job, new uniforms, lower cost.

Lower fares?? No way!!

The Japanese market has taken to AA like a cat to water. No blankets, no date rolls and the same surly service for the same price.

What's on the menu??

Take it or leave it!!

I'll leave it thank you.


:yuk:

[E.P.]

Ah Kym

So young in the mind.

21yr old 717 f/o, whose daddy purchased an Aviation career for perhaps?? :p

WHO IS YOUR DADDY!!:eek:

Damn look at that post total!! 146, how cruel.

[hoss]

Kym, do you know anything about the Dash8-400's earmarked for QF and is it true that they could be the 146 replacement?

After all they are only 40kts slower;) .

[Hostie Humper]

Hoss, I didn't realise the Dash 8 - 400 did 385Kts!!
That's 40kts slower than a 146, if your talking max speed.
If so, QF should have 50 of them.

[kym]

E.P,
Born friday the 13th, Feb, 1981 which makes me..........???

all I have heard is that the 146 fleet are leaving the east coast and the 717's are replacing them...

Hoss,
I dont know about the Dashes??? but it would nt surprise me if they do replace the 146's.

[cunninglinguist]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn.

MK-BN, 57 min. in a 717, 65 min. in a 146, in nil wind. ( even if you used 350KTAS for the 146 and 500 for the 717, the difference is still only 23 minutes )

From memory, wind effects all A/C the same on a given route at a given altitude.

350KIAS, not below 10000' these days I'm afraid, so thats approx. 30 miles when inbound.

Having travelled in both A/C, I would choose the 146, in case I got stuck in the rear of the 71 without earplugs.

Still, this thread is like most of PPRUNE, good for a laugh.:hmm:

[E.P.]

Arrrrrrrhhh well I was pretty close considering the time I posted and that I really don't know who the hell you are.:ok:

[kym]

Don't forget about ceiling limits for the 146 is a whole lot less than the 717. so while the 146 is plodding along at FL260 in a 100kt headwind. the 717 might be enjoying a 50 kt tailwind at FL360.

oh yeah, dont forget your earplugs down the back!!!:E

[ditzyboy]

As someone who sits down the back of a 717 on a daily basis it isn't that bad in the last two rows (it's worse where the rear jumpseats are!). And apart from takeoff and reverese thrust on landing it is comparable to sitting over the wing on a 762. Also I would say it is quiter on takeoff in the last row on a 717 that the last row of a 733. Seriously. Most last row pax that ask to move before takeoff say don't worry after takeoff as they realise it isn't bad at all. There is still the precious ones that need a window... :rolleyes:

Some aircraft are worse than others though. Flew on VQI the other night and it was VERY quiet. IMP would have to be the worst. (Read still bareable!)

cunninglinguist...
A 20 minute time saving on a 1-1.5 hour sector is heaps! Even an 8 minute saving is considerable, in my opinion. As someone who deals with the punters they do notice.

Capt. Claret...
I agree totally.

[Sperm Bank]

Kym an interesting analogy. Can you tell me where in Oz you have experienced a 100 knot headwind at FL260 and on the same track get a 50 knot tailwind at FL360? We regularly see wind changes during climb and descent but nothing of the magnitude you mention. I have never seen that over the past 17 years across quite a few countries (including Oz) so look forward to your answer on that one.

The 146 ceiling is 31,000ft, what is the ceiling of the 717?

[Ralph the Bong]

100 kts. tailwind at Fl260 and 50 kts. T/W at Fl 360... Gives a shear gradient of 15 kts per 1000'. Hmmm, it'd be a pretty rough day..:yuk:

[Chocks Away]

...just shows, "junior" (kym) hasn't done his time and experience... it's all just hot air and sweet dreams.

I'm with you E.P.!

Wake up and smell the coffee, Kym:}

[slice]

Yeah but kym says it was like that in MS FS2004 when the auto weather was set!!!

[cunninglinguist]

thanks for that sperm bank. Only did that sector about 250 times about 9 years ago, but from memory the wind factor was F A .

Ditzy, RTFQ, I said " even if there was 150KTAS difference, which there most certainly is not !
Yes, 8 minutes is a good saving, but then we have to get into lease costs etc. etc., which none of us really know. The whole point is, I seriously doubt that people are over the moon with the " huge " time saving.

[ITCZ]

Obviously this new-fangled idea of getting pilots to do degrees and diplomas to make them more commercially and organisationally savvy has fallen well short of that grand ideal!

Pilots are still pilots, and although some think they have a grasp of high finance and can solve all of Dixons/Strongs/Eddingtons/add executive name here/ difficulties, truth is that many would struggle running a corner shop.

Frinstance, anybody BOTHERED to go to the airservices page on enroute charges? Kym, me lad, ever pointed the mouse in that direction? Try comparing the enroute charges alone for a standard gross weight B717 against a 146-100 BNE-MKY. Just try it, my lad! Aha, one discovers that heavier MTOW aircraft get slugged more money by AsA every time they fly the route! Next, try looking up landing charges. Then look at leases. How about cost of spares and rotables, and a place to put them. Etc Etc.

Maybe the 717 is a better performer than a D8-400/146/F100 on a number of key routes. But any similarity between the outcomes of QF management actions v the predictions of tossers like young Kym will be purely coincidental, and about as reliable as investment decisions guided by Anastasia the Gypsy Mystic and her crystal ball (ref: Picture magazine classifieds, right after home girls).

Why do you insist on wasting perfectly good electrons by posting such drivel, kid?

[ditzyboy]

ITCZ...
I think you are trying to say that a 146-100 is cheaper to land than a 717? If that is what you are saying then is it still cheaper when you have to fly the 146-100 on the route 6-7 times to carry the same amount of people as a 717 3-4 times?

Anyway you are right about this topic!

cunninglinguist...
I was saying that pax do notice the shorter flight times. That's all. I am yet to see a celebration and parade on arrival! I was referring mainly to when the routes first changed to 717s.

About that wind stuff you were talking about (150KAS???). I don't know. I just do the coffee.

[ITCZ]

ditzy, no, not exactly. Your example is not comparing apples with apples?

If you give 76 folk to a 146-200 and fly them over a 300nm sector, and give a similar 76 folk to a HGW 717 and fly them over the same sector, you get a result that perhaps favours the 14, until a Dash 8-400 turns up to have a go.

If put a full pax load in each of the 146 and 717, I suspect it would be close, perhaps in the 717's favour

If you change the sector length, to 900nm, maybe the 717 wins

If you put alt requirements on the destination and a suitable is another hour away, maybe the 146 wins it back.

If you make the sector 600nm and all over open water, maybe the four engine airplane wins.

If a given route is, say, a 70 seat route 14 x a week as determined from travel stats and load forecasts, then which is cheaper? A 76 seat aircraft burning 1900 kg/hr, two 'contractor' tech and three cabin crew, lower per hour/per day lease, higher per hour maintenance, lower MTOW therefore lower enroute + movement charges, or a 90 seater burning less per hour, two plus three 'in the QF system now' crew, higher per hour/per day lease, lower per hour maintenance, higher MTOW and thus higher enroute + movement charges......

Or would we be better going 7x weekly in a hand-me-down 737-400, completely amortized, no J class? Would that suit the travel needs of the market segment?

Hell, I don't know!!! :confused:

I don't have all the data!

Thats why I think Kym-me-lads confident assertions and rantings are a complete waste of breath.

[iwillflyajet]

I smell Winstun all through Kyms postings, and I think that this post should be shut down. I think that Kyms comments are pathetic and not worth commenting on.

Maybe that is why Winstun has been really quiet lately????

just my ten cents( that I earned in Ga) I thought I would contribute to the post.

[thumpa]

P athetic is an understatement

U people have anything else to talk about. You speculate and talk crap over 2 a/c u people know nothing about.

Shut the whole godzone down. It is absolutely boring crap.:}

[Pete Conrad]

Heres a thought, get rid of those ugly 717's that have a string of problems a mile long, Qantas buy the Emb170, give it to the good guys at NJS then we all have a the perfect situation. No 146's, no McDonnel Douglas hand me downs and even better, the peanuts that fly them and then we have tried and true, proven to be able guys with years of experience flying 146's with NJS flying a nice little money earner. The regional fleet goes to two aircraft types, Dash and Emb170 and the culture of one of the most dire airlines to operate in these skies goes as well.

[thumpa]

To Pete Conrad and Frank Bonnan

You are a very nasty little man. Very bitter and twisted . Lumping 150 plus pilots into a category. You will need a lot of luck to succeed.

[blat]

C an't help but agree with Thumpa

U nusually low standard in this thread.

Not a heck of a lot of posts that seem like anything more than try-hard attempts to sound informed, hastily-typed out by arm-chair analysts in a feverish sweat of shaky conviction and the half-certain tentativeness of borrowed information and oft-quoted stats.

Time to move on.

Seeya round like an @rsehole.

[Sperm Bank]

Pete do you really think that was necessary? From my experience the lads at Impulse are good people and operate their a/c pretty well. I don't think NJS pilot's or anyone has the right to come in here and sledge another operator like that. It has undertones that are not in any way positive and just slightly superior. Tone it down a bit mate!

[ditzyboy]

Pete...
You are a very small rude little man. Please do not read this thread any longer if it angers you so. No one will miss you.

Oh and I loved your technical analysis of the 'ugly' 717s... Very strong arguement there. Almost as credible as your mile long list of things that are wrong with them. Have you wrote the list out yourself?

Pete, thumpa, blat...
You are all very small rude little men. Please do not read this thread any longer if it angers you so. No one will miss you.

All any of us are doing is sharing views. You may not agree with them and you have the option to dispute with your own opinion. Doing as you gentlemen (using term loosly) have done has no other place than blat's trailer park.

[Ibol]

Blat and thumpa,

Love it. :ok: Maybe pprune's not that boring after all.

[blat]

W hat's wrong with being a very small rude little man Sounds discriminatory towards those of us less vertically endowed. :* Grounds for action. :ouch: Dizzyboy you sound like a :mad:ing heightist... You should be ashamed:ugh:, you Smallophobe.

A nd another thing:

N othing wrong with trailer parks. Ever lived in one?
K inda nice place actually. :)

E xactly what you need to get a new perspective on life. Maybe "you're hanging on too tight, mav, turn in your wing"??? :zzz:

R egards, Blat

[Le Pilot]

You could fill a A380 when QF gets one and then we would have the lowest cost per seat.
Even better they could walk. Now that is the cheapest way!

The 717 Ugly? well I will have to disagree. The 717 is a fantastic aircraft to fly, Looks great and nothing in OZ beats it for a quick (legal) final. Dash-8 blokes scramble for their keys!

The rumours are more BS but not the 717! :cool:

[AA717driver]

I flew the 717's at TWA for just less than 1000 hours.

The ceiling is FL370--but you had to be light. You could go .80, but the fuel consumption really went up.

As to the reliability, it was a learning curve that went dramatically upward as time went on. Had quite a few delays when the planes were new. Six months later, they were trouble free. Actually, they had the best dispatch rate of the whole fleet(767,757,MD80,DC9...).

The noise in the back on the ground is the worst I've experienced. In the air, it's better than the -9 or the 80.

For those of you that get to fly it, enjoy. I'd give anything to get back in one...:( Cheers.TC

[Pete Conrad]

Oh thumpa, get you all the time don't I?? . I think you and ditzyboy need to take a St Johns wart. Go back and have a look at your threads thumpa, small, negative, sly and defensive. Got too much time on your hands?

blat, I'll show you my trailer park if you show me yours.Don't misinterpret this as having a go, I thought you were funny.

Ditzyboy, how do you know what I look like? did you get your palms read when you and your mate Trent the American FA were at Sexpo recently? pipe down little man, your an FA on a 717, lose the self important, overinflated opinion on life and yourself.

Anyway, enuffs enuff, starting to yawn, got a good result though. Maybe I aint that far from the long term truth though? I'm sorry my "harsh" tone caused you and thumpa to blow your o-ring seal Ditzyboy. It is a rumour network.

[thumpa]

Pete Conrad

You really are a good bloke. Thank god I will never have to work with you.

[Le Pilot]

Whether a FA on a 717 or Chief Pilot on a 747: All opinions are important Capt Conrad or was CRM something you had for breakfast.
I respect the fact that Ditzy has enough b@lz to give us his opinion.

[Pete Conrad]

Okay, I've just recovered from laughing so hard! thankyou Le pilot, your such a well spring, have you thought about starting a thread for up and comers on CRM? and thumpa - theres an oxy moron in there somewhere.May have something to do with where you work and CRM.

blats a genious - you guys are holding on to tight!!

I've just lost my so called bitter and twisted way on life through shear laugh hormones at the way you guys choke your chook and bite!

thumpa, when you run out of vaseline I'll lend you some, as the three stooges said,

Woo wooo wooo woooo wooo wooo Nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk nyuk!!!

[ditzyboy]

Blat and thumpa....
My humblist apologies for the bottom of my last post. I edited it so many times perhaps the original bit still came out? Dunno. I thought all three of you were having a dig. I was extremely tired and read and re read your posts and re wrote it a couple of times. Hence only the top part address to Pete should have come through. Still dunno how it happened. I am sorry all the same. I should just stick to brewing coffee and looking busy! Seriously I am sorry. What I said to you should not have come up as I deleted it all. My reply was edited to be directed at Pete only.

Pete...
I have no feelings of self importance at all. Maybe they were yours and you misplaced them when they fell out of your @ss with the rest of what you're about? Also I have not once tried to pass off that I know anything technical about the 717 performance wise. I am merely stating an opinion and asking for others' views. I am after people's opinions that may be worth something. Not someone being a bitter sod thowing around negative and worthless replies.

Who is Trent? Is he cute? Oh and I didn't go to Sexpo. I was probably doing something a little less sad. Glad you had a good time though. Why do you stay there and leave us all alone.

Rude nasty litlle man.

[Pete Conrad]

Get over it nancy boy, I just love the fact at how you guys bite.

[Woomera]

Thread going nowhere?

**CLICK** to close.