Helicopter commander relieved of duty

[Bronx]

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 28 (UPI) -- The U.S. army has relieved of duty the commander of a Black Hawk helicopter that intentionally knocked down a black Shiite flag in the Sadr City neighborhood of Baghdad two weeks ago, military sources told United Press International Thursday.

The officer in command of the helicopter, who has not been identified, directed his crew to "tear the flag down" and has been relieved of duty, the source said. The pilot of the helicopter is grounded from flight until a review is conducted of his flying record. It is unlikely he will be allowed to return to flight, the source said.

The U.S. army has not officially acknowledged that the downing of the flag was a willful act and has suggested it was blown down by the powerful downwash from the helicopter.

The Aug. 14 incident set off several days of protests in the largely poor and heavily religious Sadr City. About 3,000 people almost immediately took to the streets to protest after the helicopter flew close to the communications tower on which the flag was raised. The flag was dislodged. The flight was caught on videotape and aired almost immediately on Arabic television.

The day after the demonstration, U.S. forces in a letter expressed "deep regret" for the incident. Lt. Col. Christopher Hoffman, of the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment, wrote he was personally investigating and would punish those responsible. He also said helicopter flights would be reduced.

"There is no policy on our part to fly helicopters to communications towers to take down flags," Lt. Gen Ricardo Sanchez, commander of coalition forces in Iraq, said Aug. 14.

Sanchez announced Thursday that two personnel from the helicopter were administratively punished, meaning they faced something short of a court-martial. He did not specify what actions were taken.

Sanchez said there were two problems with the helicopter crew's actions - for safety reasons they should not have been so close to the tower, and they showed "poor judgment." He did not specify in what way. "They got too close to the tower," Sanchez said.


"unlikely he will be allowed to return to flight" :eek:
That's the army I guess. :rolleyes:

[RDRickster]

I really REALLY enjoyed the military when I served, but one of the reasons for leaving before retirement was the fact that most Senior Commanders are more concerned about political decisions rather than mission objectives and the morale and welfare of the soldiers in the field.

I miss the gruff commanders that would kick a$$, take names, and ask forgiveness later. Too much time spent covering your own tail feathers these days. In the case above, it was probably a lack of understanding of the culture which led to the error in judgement. I don't know how many people are familiar with the last few hundred of years of history in that region, let alone a pilot who spent the first part of the war being shot at and the last part being spit at.

They are sacraficing this pilot to save face and to make some absurd point. Seems to me a failure of his commander to ensure the proper sensitivity training was conducted. But guess what, SOLDIERS WERE NEVER MEANT TO SERVE IN THE ROLE OF CIVIL AFFAIRS, MP's, OR PUBLIC AFFAIRS. Soldiers (military pilots) are trained to be aggressive and trained to be warriors... the whole philosophy is to "close with and destroy the enemy."

Give me a break! :yuk:

[Sayagain...?]

Easier to sacrifice the PILOT than the flag.

To the pilot. hang in there, bud.

You will survive...

[Unwell_Raptor]

It was an undisciplined act that made the Coalition's job just a little bit harder.

So he had to be made an example of.

[Time Out]

Maybe he/they were looking for a posting elsewhere....

[GLSNightPilot]

Some of the things our soldiers have done over there haven't exactly been shining examples of American heroism. The trashing of the airport, along with the airliners parked there, were very bad, & stuff like this guy did are at least part of the reason soldiers are still dying there. If acts like this aren't punished then lots more soldiers will die. Stupidity shouldn't be rewarded, and if this wasn't stupidity it was at the very least extremely poor judgement.

[Jiff]

To many politically correct W*****S out there with nothing better to do.
Leave the aircrew alone.

Jiff

[B Sousa]

Some things our Military does and has done offends a lot of folks.
So what.
War is war and the politicos with the clean uniforms and shiny boots pretty much make up the reasons our troops are still there.
As for me, once there collective asses were kicked we should have packed up and let them sort out their own crap. They no longer pose a threat to the world. Maybe even have the French come down and kiss their rears, and rebuild the place. I certainly dont like paying taxes to do so.
I hope at least they get to keep the flag. It would look good in the Pilots Lounge .....We know what will happen, the guys will be thrown to the wolves in the name of Polictical Correctness... after saying the above, I have to agree the guy should have known it would cause big s***

[Head Turner]

Military objectives are politically generated. The action of the pilot only adds to the overall attitude of the Americans, that is of overwhelming arrogance to inflict USA ideals on other cultures.
I guess as a pilot the Captain was properly trained and proficient in his job. I would hazard at pointing a finger not at the pilot but to his commander who should have the men under his command properly briefed before any mission. If the pilot was correctly briefed and disobeyed orders, then a Courts Marshall is next on the agenda.

[RDRickster]

I think Head Turner summarized it perfectly. I agree that punishment was warrented, but since it was such an obvious failure of HIS commander - I'm not sure the punishment fit the crime. From where we sit, we'll never know all the circumstances that led to the decision.

In my opinion, we are asking for a heck of a lot from our young troops who spend most of their time learning how to wage war. They just weren't built to fill this kind of role. Add battle fatigue, axiety, heat, and the growing number of post-war casualties... it takes an ENORMOUS amount of discipline to maintain the level of restraint and cultural sensitivity that the world is calling for. In THAT respect, we aren't prepared.

Even with proper "sensitivity" training, we (as outsiders) will never be able to understand the inter-personal, religious, and political ramifications amplified by the past hundred years of a volatile and complex history. Just don't expect us to "win the hearts and minds" with limited resources and good intensions alone. Our best faith efforts over a few months won't wash away the memory of a history where emotions run high in such a diverse society - mostly alien to the average U.S. soldier.

[Bellthorpe]

They no longer pose a threat to the world
B. Sousa

No, they don't. Just as they didn't before the invasion.

[rjsquirrel]

This is an interesting thread, because those who defend the pilot cite the fact that he is being pulled under by "politics" yet they fail to see that it was the pilot's decision to make a political statement with his machine, an unsafe one at that, that lead to the need for punishment.

If you are in the US Military, you are punished if you attend a political rally in uniform, as you must not estabish a link between the service and that political statement. You can most certainly attend such a rally in civilian clothes, of course.

This pilot chose to use his machine and crew to make a political statement, a strong one! Switch venues to test that statement, tearing down a US flag at a construction site could cause you to become an off ramp on the Brooklyn-Queens Exressway!

If the guy had been the employee of any company I know, and had done as stupid a thing, he would have been fired. Had he done it in his private helicopter, the CAA/FAA would have nailed him for safety violations, too (Open air assembly, flying too close, reckless operation, where do I stop?)

As far as the commander being to blame, that is pure bunk. The rules the pilot must follow are vast, but just to start, I'll bet he did not file a performance planning chart for that flag-pole stunt, now did he?

If we want to blame commanders, let it run all the way up to the top, where that pilot and 140,000 other very loyal troops were put into mortal danger, and 10,000 innocent Iraquis killed, for the imminent danger and immediate threat of totally ficticious WMD.

[SASless]

Forsooth....no performance planning chart? Tell me it ain't so! I can forgive him for all of the other trival matters....but no PPF...oh, Dear, no old chap....no leeway on that at all. Just what was he thinking?

Why I bet his daddy was a Vietnam gunship pilot who passed on such weakness of character through his genes. Hellfire....and I don't mean the kind that Sent Usay and company on to their just reward kind either....what is the US Army coming to these days.
Now as to proper planning...good judgement....etc....he probably could use some additional training in those areas.

Now as to WMD and the war.....Rocket....think of all the terrorists that are now coming out of the woodwork and can be dispatched to the arms of the countless virgins. I too wonder where all this hot poop came from? Could some large corporations not want their contributions to the Iraqi regime to be known? Was the information there but got squashed when the extent of our own complicity was found to be embarrassing. I bet Dick Cheney is coverin up the oil companies involvement here.....they had a vested interest in our taking over the Iraqi oil did they not. I mean afterall, Dubya just keeps saying it is the Iraqi's oil and the American taxpayer is picking up the tab for the rebuilding of Iraq.

I taught some Iraqi pilots to fly Sikorsky S-76's.....I wonder if Saddam used one of them to scoot to safety? Now would that not be a bit of poetic justice?

All those Blackhawks and Jolly Greens and '53's zinging around and Saddam beats it out of town on a VIP 76!

War is good for business....DuPont, GE, Grumman, Sikorsky, Mac D, GenDym, all like the consumption of hardware, bombs, and bullets.

So Rocket....you oughta go easy on the guy....afterall war is good for the economy and all those guys and gals are volunteers, right?

Whats the sense of having a uniformed mafia if we never let it out of the cage for some exercise now and then?

Also....we must remember....once you have been given an Article 15 (Non-judicial punishment)...it gets very hard for the senior command to then take yer sweet cheeks to a real CourtMartial. The two pilot's immediate commander may have just saved their hind ends by doing that.

[Rich Lee]

Any aircraft commander who would hover a helicopter within the range of automatic rifle and rocket propelled grenade launcher risks both the aircraft and crew. Assumption of that risk to "blow down" a flag (religious or otherwise) is, quite simply an "unacceptable" action.

As a US taxpayer I do not consider the risk of losing a Blackhawk to blow down a flag anything but negilgent conduct.

It would be difficult to justify a low altitude, low airspeed hover over any possible battle position when overwhelming 'air superiority' would allow a significant reduction in risk by attacking targets from higher altitude. If the flag was a legitimate military objective I seriously doubt that any responsible commander would order it removed by helicopter downwash.

This was a lesson the US learned in Vietnam. It was a lesson the brave Russian helicopter pilots learned in Afghanistan. It was reinforced in Mogadishu with tragic loss of life by Blackhawk pilots. It has been learned again by Apache pilots in this war.

The destruciton of any flag known to be a religious object would not be tolerated in the US. Were this act committed in the US, those who perpetrated that act would face criminal charges.