Flyingschools

[despatch]

I am looking for a flyingschool in south africa wich is bein recognised by JAR standards.I am starting from scratch(PPL to CPL).I have dual nationality(South african & European)Can anyone recommend a good flyingschool and a few tips please
Thanx

[Irishwingz]

Dude

Do a search on this forum, its been discussed ad nauseum (spelling?!) Seriously as far as I know there are NO JAA approved schools in SA contrary to adverts, asvise procede with care!!


Computer: Earl grey, hot

I'm pissed, goiug to bed now folks

:zzz:;)

[George Tower]

Hi There

Firstly unless things have changed very recently there are no JAR approved flight schools in South Africa. There are a few that claim to offer JAR training and it can be difficult to precisely understand what they are claiming - they are afterall trying there best to get your hard earned pounds from you.

If a JAR CPL or Frozen ATPL is your aim then doing a lot of your intital training in SA can save you a lot of money as well as significantly enriching your aviation education. The Modular route for obtaining JAR fATPL would be as follows:

1. Obtain ICAO PPL (Can be done in SA)
2. Build hours so that you have a minimum of 95PIC and a minimum of 150 total. (Can be done in SA)
3. Pass 14 Exams - you must either be at full time ground school or enrolled on an approved distance learning course e.g Oxford or Bristol.
4. CPL prep and test (Must be done in JAA state)
5. IR course Minimum 55 hours (Must be done in a JAA State)
6. Approved MCC course - 20 hours in a sim.

Notes:

FTC in Johannesburg were at one stage (not sure if they still are) involved in a tie up with Air Atalantique in Coventry and offered a residential Ground school. The CPL and IR flying all had to be done in a JAA state though.

43 in Port Alfred offered some sort of structured hour-building for people aim for a JAR ATPL. Personally my opinion is that you don't need to bother with paying them over the odds and just do a night rating so that way building up some basic instrument flying skills as well as becoming acquaited with radio aids.

About 18 months ago the rules regarding the JAR Instrument Rating changed slightly. For holders of an ICAO IR a conversion was introduced whereby only a minimum of 15 hours needed to be flown 5 of which could be in a sim. This reduced the costs somewhat as Oxford charges £4,300 for this course as opposed to £11,200 for the full course.

An SA IR(ME) will set you back about £3000 so that will be a saving of about £4000. NB in order to get an SA IR you need to pass 6 theory exams (www.caa.co.za)


I hope the above is helpful. As I'm in a similar situation to you that is some of the information I have managed to come up with. Don't sue me if it's not 100% accurate but I'm confdent it's pretty much spot on. There's a good website that I have found helpful which deals with the whole UK-SA question: www.uksa.flyer.co.uk

Best wishes

GT

[despatch]

Hi Gt
Thanx ever so much for the info.I find the sites that u gave me very useful
Thank you
despatch

[Flying Boat]

Despatch

FTC was offering JAR training under Atlantic Flight Training's approval, however they pulled out from their business relationship with FTC End of 2002.

FTC does offer JAR training at the moment, but I advise you to steer clear of them. Do a search for FTC and you will see.

If you insist on training in RSA I agree with GT, do the SACAA CPL & then convert to JAR, that way you can train at any of the good schools RSA has to offer.

Happy Flying

FB

[Bucket]

:rolleyes:

Pretty much all of what George Tower says is spot on, but Flying Boat adds the wise caveat about FTC. It's such a tricky thing to advise people to avoid a particular flying school without appearing vindictive, slanderous, having a hidden agenda etc. I have to fully agree with FB. Please, be very, very, very careful with FTC. Since their divorce from Atlantic Flight Training things have hardly been a smooth ride for FTC.

Quite naturally they are keen for your money since they are running a flying training school but the manner in which many students have been dealt with thereafter leaves much to be desired. On balance the record is poor which is a shame. All the right staff, the right aircraft and an excellent location was increasingly rendered ineffective by top management who many feel have suceeded (weather by design or by default) in wrecking what was once a very fine school with a good reputation.

It actually beggars belief that they are still trading. Another month end has gone by and staff have not recieved a full salary cheque. This has gone on for three or is it four months?

Why do you need to know this? Simply for this reason; flying training is fraught with enough hurdles as it is without you, the poor customer, not knowing if the school to whom you have paid hard gotten money will still be there the next day.

And as FTC lurches from one cash crisis to another all I can say is be vigilant. Check out lenghty previous posts on this subject.

Best wishes and happy flying

:ok:

[despatch]

Thank you for all of u guys(Irishwings,George Towers,Flyingboat and bucket's)reply.I really apreciate it and will stay far away from FTC.I am sure u guys not only answered my question but many other pilots wanabbee's.I am thinking to sign up with Pretoria flying school.I heard they have a good reputation.
Ps:Irishwingz I hope that u recovered from ur hangover and that it was not too severe.Stick to Castle milkstout and not Guiness:p
Thanx
Despatch

[George Tower]

Hi Guys

Can some one clarify exactly what is FTC's position regarding the JAR ATPL? The reason I ask is that as the JAR has only recently been introduced i.e. <5years ago things have been a little bit fluid regarding the transition but the crux of the matter is "can they offer a complete course training solely in South Africa?" - I'm not sure they can.

Desptach - never flown much up in the high veld but from what I have heard Pretoria Flying School do have a reasonable reputation - my ppl instructor was ex-Pretoria Flying School and I have no complaints what so ever.

Finally Guiness has absolutely no substitute.....castle milk stout:yuk:

[Tiger Bob]

What George Tower said!!

At best you can be offered structured hour building towards a JAA in South Africa. If you go that route then you must choose your school well - there is a "get rich quick" attitude in some schools in SA. Proper research in forums like this, via websites and via the Aero Club will ensure you end up at the right place.

Rule 1 is never pay in advance apart from a small deposit to reserve a place. The Golden Rule is "He who holds the gold - rules" Most reputable schools will have a pay as you fly policy. Most schools that require full payment up front like to hold on to that cash.

[Vortex Thing]

Despatch ,

What some of the above have said is very true but some of it is not quite true.

First things first you want to go to FTC about as much as you want a slow lingering death, break dancing in you own s**t due to chemical poisoning.

As for doing your training. I did my JAR-ATPL theory with Bristol GS who were outstanding in all respects. having then passed my exams I then went to South AFrica and took their 8 CPL exams

Yes, it's more exams but it only took 2-3 weeks (study and exams) because I had just finished the JAR ATPL exams.

I was then in a position to undertake a South African PPL, hours build and then the CPL. Admittedly I already had a JAR-PPL and 150hrs so I only had to test but it would have been just another 4 weeks otherwise. I left South Africa with a CPL / Multi IR.

The beauty of this is when you come home to UK you are not subject to the rest of the modular structure as you are now a professional pilot from an ICAO contracting state. So you do not need to pay for a CPL module you just get a 170a and test and to get a JAR-IR(A) you need to do a 15hr conversion course which costs considerably less than a 55 hr course.

So all in all as flying is about half the price in SA if you find any decent SA academy/school (Central Flying Academy/Lanseria Flight School/Pretoria School/43 Air but to name a few) you follow the South African CPL/IR syllabus and then take 8 exams (£20 each) over 1 or 2 weeks which is almost (not exactly law & ops are different) then build the required 200 hours you can do this in fairly decent aircraft like an Arrow for £60ph b4 doing a multi SIM and then a PA34/PA31/BE76 instrument rating course.

Another bonus is that in SA you can do a CPL skills test, multi engine class rating and initial instrument rating all in one test and the test cost the grand total of £80 which they think is expensive!!!

Beware the schools telling youy that the weather is always great. CBs there are not the same as here and flying quite simply and quite rightly stops as they get squall lines over a hundred miles across on many summer afternoons. Very pretty to see decent electrical storms from the ground :)

One caveat if you find that you are not a natural aviator you will find flying in the UK a very steep learning curve due to the low density of traffic over there. So though you may not need leaggly to do a CPL modul doing 10/15 hours of CPL/IR work over here with an instructor will make sure that you are on the right path at the right level b4 making a fool of yourself on a skills test.


Good luck PM me if you want more info on SA I even have piccies:ok: :ok:

[George Tower]

Some good points made there by Vortex Thing. I agree with his point about finding out whether or not you're a natural aviator. I'd probably suggest that you do some of your flying in the Jo'burg or Cape Town areas for the simple reason that these are the busiest parts of SA with rest of the country being pretty quiet.
My personal preference is for Cape Town as not only is it God's own city, but there's heck of a lot of international traffic. Not necessarily the best place for a PPL but certainly worth flying from afterwards especially if you want to fly commercially.

If you are basing yourself in the Cape then I'd definitely suggest a few trips up country. You will experience all the thrills of high density altitute which although you may read about it and be told about it many times, nothing quite gives you the real experience of it. As for the CBs compared to those in Europe - well they're like Jonah Lomu compared to Rory Underwood in the '95 World Cup.:E

[George Tower]

Vortex,

How did the JAR syllabus that you studied differ from the SA subject matter? Is it just a matter of Air Law and Ops?

[Vortex Thing]

GT,

Yeah the Law and Ops had confusing differences between LVP minima, safety equipment. wake seperation, fire regs, etc.

JAR-OPS is a whole new animal to your air navigation order and is a lot more restrictive with regards to things like RVSM, vis & ht mins than SA Law and Ops.

Also JAR exams are mostly based on the 737-400 so A Class stuff suddenly comes to play as we do not do seperate CPL exams.

This first manifests itself when you do performance which includes the ETOPS clearances and calcs and driftdown procedures for the 63.7 tonne beast.

Met is global climatology rather than local stuff as this is all international based.

We like VORs and radar you guys like NDBs which we stay as far away from as possible after initial IR.

Your exams assume less than 5700kg ours assume 737 so 63 tonnes.

You have 8 exams and because untill recently you always won the cricket we had 14 exams so that we could pay you back. But seriously if you want detailed info please go URL=http://www.bristol.gs/link.htm]here[/URL]

Hope this helps if not mail me :)

Are you thinking of crossing over to the dark side up here. Give me a shout I'll find you a place to crash and point you at some schools if you like.

Firm landings

VT

[Tiger Bob]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=100271&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

[Propellor Head]

Dear George Tower,

Sorry, but you are incorrect - there is a school in SA which has full JAA/JAR approvals for PPL/CPL & ATPL - it's the only one in Africa and there are not likely to be any more. It's FTC based at Grand Central - or rather the former FTC which is now wholly owned by Alpine Aviation.

Problems in the past - but you whould read a comment on pprune from neilfraser and it includes a press realease from the new MD of Alpine.

Brilliant instruction, new manamgement, aircraft etc.

Give it a go

[pa_342003]

Hi there

After intensive search, found only but one school in SA that has full JAA approval. FTC based in Midrand, Apparently they have been bought over by ALPINE and the letter from a Nielfraser seems to confirm this. Try them, it will be much cheaper than doing it here.

[George Tower]

Unless things have changed i.e. very recently you still have to complete a portion of the training in the UK.

To confirm if things have changed perhaps the following question could be answered:

CAN A JAR INSTRUMENT RATING BE TRAINED FOR, TESTED AND ISSUED IN SOUTH AFRICA?

It always was the case that this had to be done in a JAA member state - I think with the exception of WMU in the States.

I for one have not slagged off FTC as I have no direct experience of their Jo'burg operation but what I didn't like was the spin that was put on their claims regarding the JAR. As there now appears to be new manangement we will await to see what will happen in the future. There has been a lot of bad publicity about them but good luck to them.

[Rhodie]

GT - you are quite right in your comments

Prop Head and pa34 etc. - PLEASE check the beginning of the thread before making comments....

Saves a lota time and patience...

[Sultan Ismail]

For those Ppruners still shafting FTC....

Please read the post from Neilfraser on the "FTC Sold" thread.

The posters' credentials are impeccable, please spit your dummy someplace else.


Sultan Ismail

I believe in the future

[George Tower]

Just to reiterate I have not directly criticised FTC. I can't as I have had no dealings with them. However in the past there have been a good number of folk who have not been happy with FTC.

That however is in the past and I for one hope they do well under their new management and one needs only to look at my posts on pprune to see that I'm a passionate advocate for SA as a place to fly.

It is the phrase "JAR Approved" which to many wannabees has been misleading. According FTC's website there is still a portion of the training which must be completed in the UK which appears to be the IR which incidentally is the most expensive part of JAR training the average price being around the £10K mark (thats for the full course as opposed to a JAR/ICAO Conversion.

The full list of JAR approved training providers can be found on the CAAs website: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_ApprovedFTOs.pdf

At £34,000 and including accommodation I guess it is a reasonable deal when compared with other schools offering the JAR course and going the modular route as this is.

Just one final point the FTC course makes no mention of MCC training which is mandatory for a type rating on a multi crew aeroplane. That is another £2,500 approx for 20 hours in a sim.

Lets hope FTC are a success under their new ownership. I'm going to be in the market for a Instrument Rating next year so I might just give FTC a try.

[Tiger Bob]

FTC

A change in ownership does not mean a change in attitude at an organisation. The only way the new owners will stop the negative posts is by providing their customers with excellent service.

I hope the next time there are post about FTC that they are positive but this rests in the hands of the new owners