AS365

[baranfin]

Just one quick question. What is that tiny T-shaped thing on top of the rotor head? I don't see it on any other dauphin pictures just on the Coast guard ones.
Just wonderin' :confused:

[Special 25]

The USCG Dolphins have standard pitot tubes under the chin and also have this small mast ontop of the rotorhead. This is the Air Data Sensor which is largly outside of the aerodynamic effects of the aircraft during flight and so gives the best indication of wind speed and direction. This data is fed to the autopilot for flight and hovering.

[Shawn Coyle]

The low airspeed sensor is driven around by a small motor, and it gives very accurate information when the helicopter is below 40 KIAS. It gives side and rear wind, and for a helicopter that hovers over the water in the middle of the night, is nearly essential.. .Every helicopter that flies IFR, and probably every other helicopter should have such a system, but we don't because we've never had them before, so we think we don't need them.. .Bit of a pet peeve of mine - I used it to very good effect on the HH-65 when I was instructing at the Naval Test Pilot School to show hover performance. . .Since it calculates the side and rear wind components and feeds them in to the navigation computer, it gives very accurate wind calculations.

[baranfin]

Alright, thats pretty cool, thanks for clearing that up guys.

[MightyGem]

How come it doesn't get affected by the induced flow through the rotor? Or is it factored for that?. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

[Lu Zuckerman]

The Apache has a similar system mounted above the rotorhead. It is used to compute wind direction in order to correct for the basllistics of the 30mm Chain Gun and the missiles.

[Shawn Coyle]

The low airspeed system is calibrated (or perhaps characterized would be a better term) to account for the inflow effects. . .The way this characterization would be done is to fly the helicopter at different weights, in and out of ground effect using a pace vehicle to obtain exact airspeeds. This data is then fed into the computer to compare with what it saw, and make the system display the correct values of wind.. .It doesn't work particulary well when doing rapid transitions to and from the hover, but it is way better than nothing.. .We have one of these systems on our ex-Canadian Forces Bell 212 (it was a fully instrumented aircraft from the Canadian test center at Cold Lake)and it is very useful.

[Lu Zuckerman]

The Bell AH1-J and the Agusta A-129 had a similar device in that it measured the direction of the airflow around the helicopter as well as the airspeed. It would align itself with the relative wind in relation to the center of the fuselage. In a hover it would align itself with the downflow measuring air velocity. Like the Apache system it was used to correct for wind for the gun and the missiles.. .. .Unlike the Apache system and that used on the HH-65, which were mounted on top of the rotor system this unit was mounted on the right side of the fuselage immediately next to the pilot position.

[Nick Lappos]

All the airspeed systems below the rotor, such as those on the side of the Cobra, are at best a bad approximation of the airspeed during low speed cases. The calibrations of those systems is nearly random where it counts, mostly because the downwash contains strings of high speed tip vortex air that is easily at 40 to 60 knots of energy. If that vortex strikes any pressure sensor (a pitot, or a fancy pressure transducer) the results are chaiotic.. .. .The S-76 pitots, and the Sea Hawk's, are located in the nose so that the blade tip vortex sweeps above them at speeds above 30 knots or so. When we developed the S-76 system (I flew one prototype that had 10 pitots -it looked like a B-17!), we had to track the tip vortex pattern as it swept across the nose at 30 knots, across the pilot's door at 50 knots, across the upper doghouse at 80 knots and finally across the transmission/swashplate fairing at 120 knots. Since the FAA airspeed calibration must be accurate down to 30 knots in level flight, we chose the nose position for the type design.. .. .The sensors above the rotor are affected by inflow, but those are relatively predictable, and much smoother than the hash below the rotor. The first airspeed above the rotor was the S-61 bullhorn system, which uses a common pitot, but is quite accurate and reliable down to 30 knots. The rotating systems above the mast are as a class quite accurate, and also read the azimuth of the airspeed, a boon to weapons shooting.. .. .Comanche uses sensors in the blades to read the dynamic pressure continiously. A computer sorts out the phase and rpm effects, and leaves the airspeed data and azimuth as a very accurate result. The blade sensors are used on Comanche because all the other systems contribute too much radar return.

[paulgibson]

All very interesting chaps, can I digress from the initial query for a moment....how did the USCG come up with the name 'Dolphin'?.....did they not like the manufacturers name? True, the military have always assigned differing names but I wonder if anyone has any idea on this one.

[widgeon]

Prob could not pronounce Dauphin correctly so It came out like Dolphin. Ever heard a Texan trying to get their lips around Ecuriel ??. .edited for bad spelling.. . . . <small>[ 14 March 2002, 12:31: Message edited by: widgeon ]</small>

[RW-1]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Comanche uses sensors in the blades to read the dynamic pressure continiously. A computer sorts out the phase and rpm effects, and leaves the airspeed data and azimuth as a very accurate result. The blade sensors are used on Comanche because all the other systems contribute too much radar return. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I had heard about that, very , uh .. Kewl !

[Rob_L]

Dolphin, Dauphin same thing. The early 365C's had a large Dolphin sticker on the side of the gearbox cowlings with the word Dauphin. I've still got one somewhere. I sent a fax of it to R&W some time back when sombody started burbling on about the origin of the word Dauphin and it's relationship to Dauphin.

[Rob_L]

Correction that last Dauphin should be Dolphin

[paulgibson]

Doesn't 'Dauphin' mean 'Prince' in english??. .. .Excuse my year 10 public school education....

[The Nr Fairy]

Dauphin is the French for Dolphin.. .. .Dauphin was also used as the French term for a Prince.

[cpt]

Hello again rotorheads,
Is there somebody here who is operating an AS365N or N2 with an HUMS (or IHUMS) retrofit ?
Are you happy with it ?
I am a bit disapointed about the operational reliability of the model my company has decided to buy .... Lot of money for almost nothing but trouble.
I don't think, in these conditions, that the retrofit of a such complex system on a relatively small (and old) helicopter already stuffed with other electronic gadgets is a + to safety and maintenance costs.

[Flytest]

I'm a HUMS engineer, and I've dealt with dozens of AS365'S with retrofit HUMS, there should be no problems whatsoever. What sort of trouble are you having??

I dispute your point regarding safety and maintenance, HUMS is not a fail safe early fault detection system, however, and the CAA will back me up on this, it definately IMPROVES safety and reliability, and on a machine with so many single critical load paths, that is justification enough for its existence my friend.

Remember, the fact that a good HUMS will save you a few beans in terms of maintenance costs by allowing better maintenance planning and spares procurement, not to mention helping your direct operating costs through reduced downtime due to in depth fault investigations, or unnecessary assembly changes when a small component is at fault, is a side issue. The name of the HUMS game is safety, when you are flying out to the ship, or the rigs, the one sound you do not want to hear is "Splash".

E-mail me privately if you want more in depth chat regarding your specific problems, happy to help. :ok:

[cpt]

Thank you for your answer Flytest, and believe I completly agree with you about a normal operating HUMS efficiency in improving safety and maintenance costs (i.e enhancing preventive maintenance, permanent monitoring and component life times)
And I believe this system works well when fitted on an helicopter from factory.
The problem seems to come from the retrofit operation itself, and the result, with the HUMS my company has chosen, is rather disapointing compared to the investment. Basically, in the best of cases, we can use it for track and balance of main and tail rotor :ugh:
For obvious reasons I cannot give too many clues here, but I am going to try an email now (I wasn't lucky last time I've tried it here) but I cannot garantee my words will be able to find your mailbox through the "cyberspace".
Sorry, I am nothing else than a miserable pilot

;)

[Flytest]

CPT

Am interested to hear specific problems with HUMS, especially retrofit, after all none of us are perfect. That said there are a few of us out here who believe whole - heartedly in the future of such systems, whether they are made in Toulouse, Eastleigh, Fareham or wherever. One of the biggest problems with HUMS is false alerts, when a system detects a "fault" that isn't really a helicopter problem. This can happen from alert thresholds being incorrectly set, faulty sensors or corrupt data files. All I can tell you is that manufacturers, operators and regulatory authorities are aware of this, and are constantly working to reduce false alerts, without compromising the ability to detect real faults... its a fine line :ok:

[cpt]

OK Flytest, this is the last snag we had, just after a few days routine scheduled maintenance operation:we air tested our bird and our HUMS completly failed the symptoms were;
1/ No record at all on the data card (we tried 2 different)
2/ "MDR" light on at all times(normal because of 1)
3/ The red light on on the "IMP"(normal, because of 1 and 2)
4/ No "HUMS" warning light on the caption advisory panel....(not normal, I think)

This came after a slow progressivly degrading situation along with passing weeks, I believe our HUMS just gave up its fight with many thousand greemlins.
I must admit such a sophisticated device requires a very comprehensive training to keep it operating properly, as well as a good deal of experience.

By the way did you get my mail ?

Rgds.:p

[Flytest]

CPT

This could be a whole bunch of things, it may be something as simple as your data card not "pre-flighted" properly, however it is likely to be something more.

Without going into too much depth here, if you fly for the company I think you do, then I know the HUMS expertise is lacking there, however, you have a support agreement with the HUMS manufacturers, therefore I suggest you (Or your engineers) raise a problem report and get the guys at the HUMS Support desk on the case, from what you have said they should be able to fix the problem without too much fuss.:ok:

[cpt]

Yes Flytest, you have put the finger on it, the HUMS system set up should go along with a real expertise and an open minded maintenance policy...but this is another story :rolleyes:
It is one of the aspects of a silent revolution our corporation has to chalange, of wich the "jurassic park thinkers" will not survive.
The concern is: how much arm can still they cause untill then ?
.... but here the slope becomes a bit slippery
;)

Glad to have talk to you Flytest.

[go vertical]

Does anybody know how much the initial training course on the AS 365 N3 at Helisim or any other facillity is?

[IHL]

I have a 1996 FSI S76 course list in front of me. In 1996 an initial FSI S-76 initial was $19,225(US) with a sim-check ride.

The 365 is in the same cateory so I'm a quessing it will cost in excess of $20,000. US.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Greetings from sand-side. The customer we work with has ordered 2 AS365N3s which are due for delivery next year. Later this month, the Manager is off to France to complete the deal, hand over the IFF/ELT codes and generally check that all is well. He has asked us to provide him with a list of questions that he should ask Eurocopter, to minimise the risk of any nasty surprises. We have gone through the RFM that Eurocopter have provided, along with what role-equipment information we can find, and have produced a useful list. However, it would be very helpful if any users out in Rotorhead-land could provide us with info/experiences on the AS365N3, particularly regarding introducing it into service. So, if you have any knowledge you're willing to share, would you do it here or by PM please?

Thanks in advance,

Thud

[Phoenix Rising]

Helmet Fire - Whats Childflight in Sydney got, is that an N2 or an N3.

Dont worry found out it is an N2 at Childflight. However Vic Pol in Melbourne have a couple of N3s there and they were the first ones to be used for Police work in OZ. Will see if I can get a contact number for them.

Cheers

:E

[Thud_and_Blunder]

I'd just like to say a public thankyou to those who've contacted us about the N3 - particular gratitude to Our New Zealand Correspondent for his part in arranging most of the comms! We look forward to continuing our acquaintance with the operators we've met online, and to passing-on the acquired knowledge as it builds.

Now, anyone else out there operating EC135T1s at 50 degrees Celsius who'd like to pass on useful tips/ share their worldly wisdom:D :cool: ?

[Bomber ARIS]

Get you one of them proper 135s, you know the T2/P2 ones.

We've all been flying as test pilots in the T1 until the real 135 turned up :yuk:

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Too late, Bomber, they've had 'em here for 3 years (2B1 engines!). Our job is to make them work in a worthwhile manner...

Thanks for all the test flying, though:ok:

[etienne t boy]

Same problems with the engines as the S76C+ models in hot climates - the engines fail to meet power assurance minima and have to be rejected early. It seems the Arriel 2 series engines don't like hot climates, no matter what type they're installed in and have problems maintaining power margins around 600 hours.

The other problem with the N3 is range. It has the same fuel capacity as the other N models, but fuel consumption is up to 305 kg/hr at 140 kts TAS at lower altitudes.

The twin engine power is excellent and it's good for 'hot and high'. If you're heavy and flying at altitude, don't be surprised if the first limit you reach is the collective top stop, before getting to any engine or transmission limits. You'll still get at least 140 kts TAS though.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

etienne,

Thanks for the information; fortunately our (pressure) altitudes aren't going to be particularly high, no jebels or hills in this neck of the Arab/ Persian Gulf. Lack of range MAY not be a problem, as the operational radius for our task is pretty restricted. I hadn't even realised that any other aircraft type operated with Arriel 2s - you live and learn, eh?

[rotorspeed]

Can anyone give me any views on the AS365 as a corporate machine, both from pilot's and pax point of view? What benefits do the N1 and N2 have over the earlier Ns? Particularly interested in speed and range. Rough price guides for a decent acft?

[WLM]

Where can you get an endorsement fro the above type in Australia, including approximate cost please?
Thanks
WLM :D

[Oogle]

The operators of these types are (from north to south):

CQ Resq at Mackay
Capricorn Rescue at Rockhampton
Westpac Rescue at Lismore
Child Flight in Sydney; or
Victorian Police

Try any of them and ask for a price. I would assume you would get a wide variety of instructors.



:ok:

[WLM]

Thanks Oogle, will drop them an email
Regards
WLM :D

[Tickle]

Hi everyone,

I heard that you can't idle a C-series Dauphin because the vibrations of the tail rotor drive shaft at idle can produce structural fatigue.

Is that right? Does this mean the engines are always running at higher than idle? Can someone explain this?

Regards,

Tickle.

[John Eacott]

No idea whether it's due to vibration, but the 365C Start and Shut Down procedures don't allow any running at "ground idle". After start, the FFC lever should be "pushed forwards slowly until it contacts the forward stop", and for shut down "Set the FFC in the shut down (fully rearward) position without pausing in the 'idling' detent".

According to my old Flight Manual, anyway: it may have changed!

[cpt]

On the 365 C series, the shut down procedure is now to set one engine on ground idle (30 sec) while the other remains at flight idle. After these 30 sec, you shut the idling engine off and you set the one that was on flight idle to ground idle for another 30 sec.
It is said that the vibration frequency with both engines on ground idle doesn't match with the tail boom metalic structure.
This procedure is the same on AS 365N but different on N2 where you can set both engines at ground idle (30 sec)....The tail boom is made of composites here.

[Berten]

I have several AS365N2 & N3 in service. Everything is matter of power. All of the AS365 are very fast cruising helicopters, ca 175 knts max, cruise is 150 knts. They all fly very comfortable, ths due to theconstruction of the Main Rotor. Very good helicopter.

[Aesir]

Uhhmm.. Isn´t it SA-365? Sud-Aviation not Aerospatiale!

JAR-FCL 2.220 app. 1. only specifies SA365 for the series.

[VSOP]

SA 365N - Sud Aviation
AS 365N1 - Aerospatiale
AS 365N2 - "
AS 365N3 - "
AS 365N4 (EC 155) - Eurocopter

[soggyboxers]

Depends where you want to fl;y them really, but I like all the variants of the N model SA365.
From the pax viewpoint as a corporate machine it's nice and smooth, but the cabin is rather lacking in headroom except for the 2 rear facing passengers in the 5 seat VIP interior. It is possible to gain more room, but at the expense of range as it involves sacrificing some fuel tank space.
From the operating poi8nt of view they all have the same basic autopilot (perfectly adequate even in basic form) and pretty similar cruise sppeds, in the region of 150 knots in Europe. On hotter climes, the cruise spped does decrease a bit, but so does the fuel burn. Just to give you an idea, in the part of the world where I now operate (West africa) we use as basic block planning figures:
SA365N 130 kts Fuel burn 265 kg/hr
SA365N1 130 kts Fuel burn 275 kg/hr
SA365N2 135 kts Fuel burn 280 kg/hr
SA365N3 140 kts Fuel burn 305 kg/hr
The standard fuel tanks are the same for all variants, with a capacity of 915 kg, so you'll see that the N3 suffers a bit in terms of range - but it's wonderful in the mountains!!
Whe4n I started flying 365N series, all the new variants were SA365N... but some years later the new RFMs came out labelled as AS365.... For me, they all go in my logbook as SA365.... My 3 personal flight manuals from factory courses on N, N1 and N2 are all SA365....
But, I digress. I think it's a lovely pilots' machine and although probably not quite as good as the S76 from a passenger point of view in terms of cabin space, it's smoother, almost as fast, tough, low on maintenance and overall one of my favourite machines of all time :ok:

[helmet fire]

How does the EC155 compare to the 365 N series? Much of a leap?

[The Tox]

Even though it's a nice machine to fly, never found them to be low on maintenance. If it's a single ship operation make sure you have a good line of spares and good access to ongoing support. All the very best

[Vertolot]

Flytest,

How much approx. will a HUMS retrofit system cost installed for an N2?

[Berten]

Why HUMS if UMS is enough? There is a big difference in cost & installation.

[TomBola]

Hi Tox,

I agree that if you just operate one or two ships it's a good idea to keep a good supply of spares for anything Eurocopter because their AOG system and spares supply in general leaves a lot to be desired, even with improvements they claim to have made. I still think they're pretty low on maintenance though, compared with other modernish medium helicopters like the S76 and Bell 412, compared with which they only need about 60% of the daily maintenance. The N3 seems to be more of a problem because of the problems every helicopter with Arriel 2 series engines in hot climates has with passing power assurance. It would be interesting to hear what the major problems are on Dauphin fleets in different geographical locations.

[Helicopter doctor]

Does anyone have experience with retrofit of the 10 blade Quiet Fenestron to a AS365N2? (standard fit on an N3)
Since installation, we are getting reports of a high freq at the pedals at higher speeds, OK in the hover or low speeds.
TR Balance is below 0.1 ips. Unable to notice anything unusual on a spectrum scan at hover or at different airspeeds. Hub and blades are new and fully "mod"ed.
I was wondering if this might be something inherent. Anyone have any similar problems?

I certainly endorse the comments on EC support and spares. After most of my career working on Bells http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon7.gif, EC was a whole new ballgame. http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/icons//icon8.gif

[Helikopter]

Has anyone experienced large deviation when ALT mode is engaged on the Autopilot ?

The helicopter deviates down 200 - 300 feet down and then 200-300 feet up like a true Dauphin :) Not very nice after a long ride !

We are operating with a hoist on the AC and we where told that the hoist might have this effect on the Aircraft !

Has anyone got this same experience or similar.

Regards

Helikopter

[Berten]

Feel free to cantact me for any further explanation to this specific Dauphin problem. Mobile = 0032486436784.

Regards,
bertrand

[Spheriflex]

yes, it's expensive flying maasvlakte. But if i'm not mistaking, you've had that problem in september 98 as well. As far as i know it has nothing to do with the hoist. When you engage alt, does it first fly straight and level? And only after a disturbance it will start fluctuating, wich will get worse and worse?

[Helikopter]

Yes the problem was in 98 as well.

And yes the AC does fly straight and level just after you engage ALT, but the disturbance is so little that it is never possible to fly with the ALT engaged because the ride gets worse and worse.

Thanks a lot guys for your replys

Regards

[froggy_pilot]

This has nothing to do with the hoist.

It's purely an autopilot problem.
You need a good avionic enginer

[Spheriflex]

I don't think you need an avionics engineer.
First do a full autopilot test, if it reed "0" switch the test to off, watch the PRY indicators in the centre panel; P: Half Down, R: Half right.
Ok so far so good, now check(What most people forget) without disengaging the AP. the TRIM. China hat forward(+/-2 sec), watch the pitch indicator, it should go up AND the cyclic should move forward AND keeps moving forward, because the AP has no reference, so the stick should continue to move smoothly forward. You have to use the trim release to stop or the beep trim in opposite direction. (I think it has to be checked before every flight as opposed to the ap test: first flight of the day) (Flight Manual 4.1 chapter 5.2.3 afterstart checks, special checks). If the P indicator moves, but the cyclic does not, the trim motor will continue to run untill the force is strong enough to move the cyclic, then it will jump forward ( or backward, sideways, depending th direction of the trim) If that is the case, then have a look at the bearings of the controle push-pullrods and bellcranks, most probably the are rough due to sand or dust and I think they will need replacement.
It would translate in ALT-hold: at time of engagement; no distorsion, so smooth flying. When there is a distorsion, the trim motor will start to run, but because the controle bearings are to rough, it will need a bigger force to move them. When they move, it will be to much so you will go the opposite direction of the distorsion, resulting in a trim action in the other direction, and so on .. so the Dauphin will make bigger and higher jumps as to where the trim is at its max travel speed and lenght.
But it definatly is not the hoist!!
Good luck, let us know when it's solved

[cpt]

Long time I havn't flown a "N":{ but, I remember we also can check the full needle deflection on each galvanometer when we select the test switch to "OFF" just before disengaging AP. With only half a deflection, we can expect a lazy and slow correction on affected axis. It also worth having a look on the coupled axis FD bar to check if AP correctly responds to required corrections.
Often the fault is originated by actuators amplifiers....but don't take it for granted, to me it's more like esothery and magic stuff.

[AB139engineer]

I have some experience in the past with porpoising in flight on the 365, replace the a/P actuator under the right forward seat position, also a seized rod end bearing can also cause this problem

[ReallyConfused]

Turbomeca quote the Arriel 2C OEI 30' rating as 963shp
and Maximum Continuous Power as 779shp (EC quote better figures in the AS365 Panther literature as 977shp/800shp) for the same engine.

As a newcomer here I am thoroughly confused.

Can someone explain if the the two engines in the AS365 Panther can be run simultaneously at the maximum 963/977shp OEI 30 seconds rating, if so what would be the maximum time the two engines could run in this condition and any oter limitations / dangers.

Alternatively, is there some techncal restriction such as transmission capacity which would limit this.

I ask because EC appear to be claiming that the AS365 has a maximum power in excess of 1800shp which is the two OEI 30' ratings added together, can this be right?

EC AS365N3 Technical Link (http://www.eurocopter.com/site/docs_wsw/fichiers_communs/docs/TD_AS365_N3.pdf)
Turbomeca Arriel 2C Link (http://www.turbomeca.com/public/turbomeca_v2/html/toolkit/php/dl.php?id=1521)

[Ian Corrigible]

Is there some techncal restriction such as transmission capacity which would limit this.
Yes, the N3 has a max gearbox rating of 1,294 shp take-off, 1,138 shp max continuous and 815 shp OEI. As with all modern-day twins, the transmission is not intended to soak-up the theoretical max combined ISA/SL rating of the donks, but rather to ensure a suitably high OEI performance (see the AW139 thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204240&page=9) for more discussion on this).

Although the installed power of modern twins may seem unusable at ISA/SL, they do offer much improved hot/high performance, with the reduced output of powerplants at 4K/95 or 6K/95 filling the gearbox (or at least coming close to doing so).

I/C

[Helimikey]

Anyone know where to do a MCC on a Dolphin?

Cheers

[ab139heli]

Contact luftransport in Norway I think the run such courses

[MD900 Explorer]

Lufttransport TRTO (http://www.lufttransport.no/Lufttransport.nsf) webpage says they do TRT on SA365N Dauphin, but nothing on MCC. They do state that they offer training in CRM. Contact them, they may well be able to point you in the right direction

MD :ok:

[hostile]

Why you need MCC with Dauphin? The MCC is MCC. You can have it anywhere, where is approved MCC training program. Try also Airlift.no or Proflight.se.

Hostile:ok:

[Helimikey]

thanks guys.

its just more interesting to do it in the heli we operate, thats why I'm looking for MCC AS365.

HM

[Grungefuttock]

MCC courses in Europe fall into two categories. The amendment 5 to JAR FCL2 means that there are now two courses - MCC IFR, and MCC VFR.
In UK only one MCC IFR. Try Don MacDonald at Tiger Helicopters he has got a super new simulator based upon the A109.:}

[ATN]

Try Helisim @ Marignane, they have one FFS with a 365 N2 Dauphin cabin.

ATN @

[Aesir]

I can´t seem to find any reference in AFM on limitations etc if standard door´s are removed on SA365.

Anyone know anything about door removal on Dauphin :confused:

The aircraft does not have sliding doors and I may need to remove doors for filming.

[Droopy]

110 knots, don't have the AFM reference to hand.

[hostile]

You can found references from AS365 FM SUP 15 (Transport of external loads).
VNE is 110kt.

Hostile:ok:

[Aesir]

Excellent :ok: Thank´s. Now I can sleep tonight :)

[hallaheli]

Looking for info on the various models of AS365s.

Any advice or tips on what to look out for would be appreciated. Performance, Maintenance issues, Passenger comfort, Range with full seats and Offshore gear, Support, Operating costs etc. Anyone ever have a cargo hook on one?

Would be operating mostly Sea level, 30+ C. Any kits out for NVG?

Thanks,

HH

[Brilliant Stuff]

Well if you are talking hot then the N at MAUW i.e. 4000kg on a small deck can be rather sporting, quite doable but sporting. The N2 is more like a doddle and I would recommend that over the N, also it has got an extra 250 kg, sadly I have no experience with the N3, though their Glasscockpit would make life that much easier. You can quite easily hide the dinghies in the roof of the 365 as well.

[Burr Styers]

Spent many happy years zipping round in Ns and N2s on the North Sea, N2 certainly more capable than the N, think of them as analogue(N)and digital (N2) versions.

No problems with underslung loads, and can be fitted with a good range of survival aids for over water operations, and as pointed out there is a neat fit for a pair of life rafts in the cabin roof.

Delight to fly, but can be a bit fragile in places, doors cabin and boot tend to be a bit on the flimsy side. Boot size is quite good without being capacious.

The pilot seats were designed around the standard 4ft three hunchback gnome - with a withered limb, worth investing in good quality seats there.

I cant vouch for its performance in more pleasant climes, but agree with the the previous poster, N probably a bit sporty, N2 will probably do it most days.

Single engine performance whilst not stellar, is adequate and will get you home. Autopilot out is not too much of a handful - for the ex mil guys, its like a gazelle on steroids.

IFR is a good machine (flew it SPIFR), bit sensitive in pitch, but keep on top of that and its OK.

Dauphin used widely around the world which is always a good sign - variety of engine fits, used arriels, never had one fail on me.

Tough little aircraft, worked hard offshore for years, and stayed out in all weathers.

Flying a desk these days, and dauphin was the last type I flew. No bad days with it, and dont recall any real vices with the aircraft.

Bit of a subjective answer, but HIH:ok:

BT

[tophelios]

Hi...
I'm flying AS365N3 at the moment, and I used to fly N2 and N.
During more than 3000 FH on it, I have had a very few engine's problems ( mainly due to chip detection device, fixed now on the new N2 and N3).
I was flying offshore, ship pilot transfer, military and SAR, and the main problem was the engine power in the hover, on the N and when temperature was up to 25C..
I'm now flying a N3, for SAR purpose in a country where the normal temperature is ISO+20 (OAT is there 30-35C), and we still take off at 4300kg, hover at sea at 4100 (at the MCP).
For underslung operations, you can go to 1600kg on the N3...
Empty weight is approximatly 2800 kg, depending on the options installed on board..
A really good chopper to fly, easy to and very safe...
But just my point of view....:ok:

[Brilliant Stuff]

We had no real troubles with the doors as such, the boot hinges would die on a regular basis but when I left Eurcopter where trying to do something about it.

[Tech-B]

Maintenance wise the N2 and N3 are very reliable as far as I can tell. No problems that couldn't be solved up until now.
We had a few cracks at the 25° frame, but probably caused by the pilots hanging into the strap that is attached at that point to get into the aircraft, as the pilot doors are not very big.
The engines on the N3 are easy to maintain and if for any reason you have to do an engine replacement, it can be done very fast due to the great acessability. The N2 demands a little more attention because of the anticipator, but it isn't to bad eighter.
We use them for a wide variety of jobs, from offshore to hoisting to HEMS and VIP.
I know Lufttransport in Norway has NVG kits on their machines, but I think it would be better to get your information at your local Eurocopter Service Center.
Roof dinghy's are an option, but I have heared they have life rafts that can be mounted on the outside of the aircraft that serve as step. In that way you save some space on the inside.
All I can say is that the Dauphin has proven itself trough the years.
Greetz

[hallaheli]

Thanks for the info so far, please keep it coming.

I have heard that the Ariell 2 series (in both 365N3s and 76s), had trouble making powerchecks in warmer temps after 600hrs or so. Is there any validity to this?

What is available for barrier filters on the 365?

Thanks,

HH

[David Clarke]

Hi all, this is my first post on Rotorheads, i have recently uploaded a website dedicated to Dauphin helicopters, linked below. If any of you out there can update my site or would like to add a picture (aim is one of every registration!!) that would be most welcome.

http://www.dauphin2.com

many thanks Dave.

[EESDL]

excellent site. v useful
s/n 6309

[MarkH1]

Hi David,

Check your email, I just send yo a huge file file with Dauphin pictures

Good luck,

Mark

[David Clarke]

Many thanks to all those that replied, much appreciated.

Dave.

[heli1]

Looking through can't see reference to the EC155s in Vietnam (3 now with SSFC and NSFC on offshore ? ).
Anyone know more...pix... ??

[David Clarke]

VN-8601 is 6645, have a good picture of this but have asked SSFC for permission to use but no reply from them.

Dave

[David Clarke]

Hi all, been trying to find out if the USCG Dauphins have had their designation changed since they have been refitted with Ariels. with their original LTS engines they were SA366G1, what are they now? Technically they should be AS565MB`s, anyone any idea?

Dave

[Ian Corrigible]

New designation = AS366GA

I/C

[calaim]

Try to contact Heliportugal www.heliportugal.pt (http://www.heliportugal.pt)

[bleepup]

I hear NHV have started their EC155 training now with HeliHolland, when does their new SNS contract start?

[David Clarke]

NHV`s first 155 is currently in Ostende I believe, OO-NHJ, should be in service very soon.

Dave

[LOBUN]

Hi, i´m Diego from Uruguay, i´m flying bell 212 but may be i´ll become a Dauphin Pilot in a wild, who knows about simulators. My boss asked me about Sim Training Companies to send our AS 365 n2 crew members but... who can recomend me some company
Thanks

[Fafe]

In my opinion, Helisim (Marignane) is the best.
I have gone there many times.

[Droopy]

Will second Helisim, just try and avoid the 0400-0600 slot!

[hostile]

Hi there,

Anybody has good electrical, hydraulic and MGB schematics (other than RFM has) for Dauphin?

Thanks, :8

[Brilliant Stuff]

We used to learn from the engineer training manual which I am sure has got what you want sadly though I no longer have access to that. Maybe someone else has.

[[email protected]]

I have a tech manual for the AS365 which If I remember has the schematics as well.

I'm away at the moment but as soon as i get back tomorrow I'll check to see what i have.

[hostile]

I am appreciating your help. If you have a change to scan and send me a couple of schematics. It would be very helpful to look back again to Dauphin. I had that Tech manual, but I leaved everything to my home country which is too far to go look. It was good manual with pictures.

Hostile:ok:

[Greeny9]

Hi, send me a pm with your email and I'll attach the info. to it. Can't seem to attach files through PPRUNE

[hostile]

Greeny9,

Sent you a pm.

Hostile:)

[[email protected]]

Hi Hostile.

Go here RotorInfo (http://www.rotorinfo.com/). Select Library and under Eurocopter - Library - AS365 Sections you'll find a list of Electrical, Main Rotor and Hydraulic PDF's. See if they help.

[hostile]

Thanks bhl. great website!

:ok:

[mzgoulden]

Could anyone please tell me, if there is an existing mod to install a side mounted FLIR or Nightsun frame to the AS365.

Thanks

Michael

[Te_Kahu]

Helipro had FLIR and Nitesun mounts on the Dauphin they used to operate.

TK

[sunnywa]

MZ,

Eurocopter make mounts that go on the sides of the 365 just behind the pilots and co-pilots doors. To these you attach your gadgets. There are also a lot of other mounting systems out there that aren't EC. Google photos of as365 for a lot of different views. :O

[griffothefog]

Back in the mid eighties the aircraft was called a SA365N.....
Or am I wrong? :confused:
The constant referral to AS365N really pisses me orrrfff. :E
OK.... Too much time on my hands...:{

[cpt]

Yes Griffothefog, it's a bit confusing indeed...."SA" is from "Sud Aviation" wich became "Aérospatiale" in the late 70's and "SA" turned into a "AS"
The SA365 is an upgraded twin engine version of the single engine SA 360 dating from eary 70's.
When in 1978 "Sud-Aviation" became "Aérospatiale" developments of the SA 365 were called AS365.....
Since 92, it's "EC" (Eurocopter)

[Brilliant Stuff]

Yupp Griff I am with you on that one.

[Aucky]

Question for a colleague. I’m not familiar with the AS365, or offshore LVO ops.

Is the 365N3 certified for CAT II ILS operations?

[[email protected]]

I don't know for sure but I doubt it. The ones I flew only had 3-axis AP but would fly a coupled ILS down to either 60' or 80' agl and then reduce speed along the runway until the IAS hold dropped out.

[Kulwin Park]

Morning Aucky have you purchased these Dauphins from the Australian Victoria Police? They head to Europe somewhere, from Melbourne Australia.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/144398697_1351482438518272_50852619753416760_n_779760cbd0105 9b522402894328455b316bed99f.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/146411952_1351482488518267_1591051702585091877_n_37d508e2546 d1e66c0b668c050cd05f7c54c99a1.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/148589282_1354871228179393_6680836974359910872_n_ba90fa35677 0c11f77bf343cf32fe4c59be60945.jpg

[Aucky]

Nothing that exciting - a colleague is performing T-PED testing and the allowable tolerances change depending on the certification level. The TCDS and RFM don’t explicitly mention a limit on CAT I approaches, or a minimum allowable DH, so one may be able to argue they are not limited to CAT I. Having never flown with an SPA.LVO approval it is not my area...

[[email protected]]

You are limited to Cat 1 DH of 200' regardless - that is the limit of CAT1 ILS procedure, its not an RFM limit.

[Aucky]

You are limited to Cat 1 DH of 200' regardless - that is the limit of CAT1 ILS procedure, its not an RFM limit.

Only if the aircraft is limited to CAT I. Where does it say it is?

[nomorehelosforme]

Morning Aucky have you purchased these Dauphins from the Australian Victoria Police? They head to Europe somewhere, from Melbourne Australia.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/144398697_1351482438518272_50852619753416760_n_779760cbd0105 9b522402894328455b316bed99f.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/146411952_1351482488518267_1591051702585091877_n_37d508e2546 d1e66c0b668c050cd05f7c54c99a1.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/148589282_1354871228179393_6680836974359910872_n_ba90fa35677 0c11f77bf343cf32fe4c59be60945.jpg

So does anyone have any idea where these are ending up?

[[email protected]]

Only if the aircraft is limited to CAT I. Where does it say it is? what I mean is that when you fly a Cat 1 ILS, your minima can never be less than 200' - it is a procedure limitation not an aircraft one.

You can only fly Cat II ILS at airports with the appropriate ground lighting and equipment.

Many helicopters are physically capable of flying lower than Cat I limits - it depends on the AP fit but to legally fly Cat II I think you would have to jump through a number of regulatory hoops.

I get the impression you want to fly CAT II ILS using an i-pad or similar, is that the case?

[Aucky]

what I mean is that when you fly a Cat 1 ILS, your minima can never be less than 200' - it is a procedure limitation not an aircraft one.

You can only fly Cat II ILS at airports with the appropriate ground lighting and equipment.

Many helicopters are physically capable of flying lower than Cat I limits - it depends on the AP fit but to legally fly Cat II I think you would have to jump through a number of regulatory hoops.

I get the impression you want to fly CAT II ILS using an i-pad or similar, is that the case?

Thanks Crab. Yes I understand what the CAT 1 minima are, and no I’m not flying them on my iPad 😂.

The regulatory hoops you refer to are a special approval for low visibility operations (SPA.LVO). My question is ‘Is the 365N3 certified for CAT II ILS operations?’ I.e. with the regulatory approvals in place. Or, is it limited to CAT I, meaning you would never be granted the approval.

The AW169 RFM, for example, states “The helicopter is certified to carry out CAT I ILS approaches up to 4 degs glideslope”. I would argue therefore it is has not yet been certified to conduct CAT II ILS operations and you would probably not be granted the approval, but I haven’t found such a ‘limitation’ on the AS365. That’s not to say it would necessarily meet the requirements to gain approval...

AMC4 SPA.LVO.100 states The DH for CAT II and OTS CAT II operation should not be lower than the highest of:
(i) the minimum DH specified in the AFM, if stated;
(ii) the minimum height to which the precision approach aid can be used without the specified visual reference;
(iii) the applicable OCH for the category of aeroplane;
(iv) the DH to which the flight crew is qualified to operate; or
(v) 100 ft....
... prompting my question on whether there is a minimum DH specified for the AS365. It has nothing to do with the prescribed CAT I minima of 200ft.

AMC2.SPA.LVO - LVO approval doesn’t specify anything which would automatically rule out the AS365N3 from gaining approval.

Given the number of people who have flown offshore and SAR with the 365N3 my questions didn’t intend to get overly technical, other than to understand whether anyone had ever gained approval to fly to less than CAT I minima.

(Reference to T-PED testing is because the allowable interference with nav kit is stricter if conducting CAT II/III operations).

[rudestuff]

I'll translate: has anyone here ever seen an AS365 certified to fly a Cat II ILS?

[[email protected]]

... prompting my question on whether there is a minimum DH specified for the AS365. It has nothing to do with the prescribed CAT I minima of 200ft.Ok, so now we know what we are talking about - as I mentioned, the N3s that I flew with a 3 axis AP could be flown down to 75' radalt on a coupled ILS but that was an aircraft capability not a regulatory permission to do so - I used to demonstrate it to my students VMC at the end of a normal CAT I ILS when we had been cleared to land.

I can't see how Airbus would put a limit in the RFM that was higher than they had equipped the aircraft for and the 4-axis AP with SAR modes can take you to the hover IMC.

I think it will just be regulatory permissions you require as long as you have a rad alt and twin ILS receivers.

The quote from the 169 RFM is a red herring - the limitation is all about the steepness of the approach due to the increase in RoD and its effects on stability and the pressure instruments accuracy - it may also factor in OEI go around capability. That is why it specifies a maximum glideslope angle which is not unusual but 4 degrees is quite a low limit - I'm sure you know that 3 degrees is the norm.