Fishtailing

[Continental-520]

Can anyone offer any tips on overcoming the fishtailing (yaw oscillation) tendency?

Didn't have any problems in the Cessnas, which I've spent the bulk of my limited time on, but I'm having a bit of a battle with it in the (V-tail) Bonanza.

I've found that trying to counteract the oscillations with the 'ruddervators' just makes it worse, much to the chagrin of those sitting behind. The only thing I feel I can do at this stage is just sit tight with each foot on the respective pedal and try to hold them still, which offers some slight relief, but the slightest bump in the air will send it swaying again. I end up disembarking feeling very guilty as the passenger(s) sitting in the third row come out looking pale.

This seems most noticeable during cruise and high speed descent, although sometimes during climb as well depending on the turbulence.

Any advice on dealing with this would be very gratefully received.

Also, why does the Bonza have the alternator mounted up front? I was under the impression that all Continentals had it at the back. At least the 206s and 210s that I've flown have, and I believe the 310s and 402s also. Any thoughts?

Aside from that, it's nice to fly, but the 210 is still better!!

Looking forward to the responses, if any.


520.

P.S. This post may appear twice due to computer related difficulties. Apologies if it does.

520.

[404 Titan]

Continental-520

While the “V” Tail Bonanza is a beautiful aircraft, there were a number of flaws in its design and handling. This was one of them. The other was the tail separating from the aircraft. This was fixed through a modification to the tail assembly. The simple physics of the design means that there is less ability to control yaw than in a conventional tail aircraft. Apart from moving the CofG forward or putting a yaw dampener in it there isn't much you can do.

On the topic of the position of the alternators on C310, C402’s, it is on the front.
:)

[Bevan666]

The V tail will just wiggle its arse constantly in the lightest of turbulence. Not much that can be done about it. The A36 and 33 models are better, but they will still wiggle in turbulence. The nice thing about the V tail is its 5 or so knots faster, and just looks sexy. The weight and ballance envelope is also a bit restrictive on the V tail bonanzas (better with the V35 and above).

You're putting 1-2 people in the rear row of a V tail? - they'll be cramped as well as sick. Nastie business. :)

Bevan..

[404 Titan]

BIK_116.80
I always thought an aircraft moved about its centre of gravity.
You are quite correct. Both the size and arm of the fin determine the directional stability of the aircraft. The further the vertical fin is behind the center of gravity the more static directional stability the aircraft will have. Maybe I shouldn't stay up so late or a cup of coffee would help in the future.

:ok: :)

[Continental-520]

Thanks for the replies.

Some handy info there indeed. I suspected that this might be the case - nothing more can really be done given that the problem is a function of its design. Just wanted to see if anyone else had anything extra to add, that's all.

404 Titan,

there were a number of flaws in its design and handling. This was one of them. The other was the tail separating from the aircraft.

That's a worry! Wouldn't want to find oneself in a incipient or fully developed spin (inadvertantly caused, of course)...!

Bevan,

You're putting 1-2 people in the rear row of a V tail? - they'll be cramped as well as sick.

Yes to both. I can't figure out why the hell they put the wings so far forward. Whilst distinctive in appearance, it's a pretty silly design for pax carrying charter purposes.


520.

[hombre_007]

Hey there guyyyy,
hows it going? Flying the Bonanza now hey?

Should help you with ATPL cooking hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Continental-520]

Hello Mate!

Good to see ya online. Yep, the Bonanza is a pretty wild machine. Might be coming down your way in it soon too, cause the avionics are about to be upgraded. We'll speak before that happens though.

Anhyhow, take care till then. Gotta get back to my ATPL window cleaning. :8


Me.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sexy as the Vtail is it's not an excellent 4 seater...it's an excellent 3 seater. The A36 is a fantastic 4 seater and I have not noticed it wiggle in turbulence any more than any other similar se aircraft.

Chuck,

[separator]

Regarding the fishtailing in V-tails:

In a previous life I accrued about 2,000 hours in V-tails, both normally aspirated and turbo-charged, flying photo mapping survey at altitudes ranging from 1000' to FL250. The phenomena of fishtailing certainly exists, yet I did not find it a problem as such.

In camera configuration the B35 was in an aft C of G condition not dissimilar to that encountered by Continental 520.
I found that by keeping a slight pressure on the right rudder pedal support, usually with the big toe of my right foot, I could dampen the oscillations quite successfully. The key to the technique seemed to be a steady pressure and resisting the temptation to "chase' the yawing action.

This seemed to work in all flight regimes, even at low level (1000' AGL) when the aircraft quite often had to be flown cross-controlled due to insufficient time between camera exposures to allow bank to be used for course corrections. If the aircraft was not level when the camera fired, the next sound you heard was the nav in the back seat describing your ancestry in somewhat harsh terms.

It seemed to work in extreme turbulence, such as 1500' over coal stockpiles in Central Qld in summer (ISA+30).

Despite the obvious contribution of the V-tail configuration to the fishtailing problem, I have always considered that the fuselage may have had an input as well. Experience in B-55/B-56 indicated to me that there was a hint of fishtail there as well. They have of course similar fuselages to the B-35 series. But then again it may have just been my sloppy flying (I have always regarded straight and level as two separate exercises).

Despite their idiosyncrasies, I always found the 35 and 55/56 series to be delightful aircraft to fly.

sep

[Continental-520]

Hmmm, interesting.

BIK_116.80, 100% acknowledged. Couldn't agree more. Stands to reason that an aircraft not intended for pax carrying charter is not going to perform well against others in doing so, which pretty much sums up my previous comment about the 210 still being better.

Frankly, we could easily sell this one to an afficionado in the swish condition it is in and have enough money out of the sale to get our hands on a decent L or M model C210. It would be at least 10 yrs newer than the Bonanza too, at that. The only problem is that the current owner is easily as much of an enthusiast as any potential buyer.

Separator,

Thanks for that. I'll give it a whirl. Already given up the "chasing" technique. Too bad it doesn't have anything equivalent to rudder trim.


520.

[vee tail]

The beautiful V-Tail. Its a great machine and very strongly built. Not bad for technology built in 1947. 520 as for the yaw , yep just hold a bit of pressure on the right rudder pedal and thats as bout as much as you can do. As for the tails separating from the a/c it does so when the rudder vators are not balanced correctly and they develop an inflight flutter causing the rear bulk head to crack and then ultimately separation occurs.

I to have many hours on these machines and love em. We also have one in the family and she is a 1948 V35and I can honestly say that it would be one of the most solid feeling a/c I have ever flown in. Performance wise eats a C - 210. pax wise maybe not. Wings and airframe also designed from a P-51.

Enjoy her and dont be scared to throw it around a bit coz they will respond nicely





:ok: :ok: :ok: :D :)

[bush mechanics]

520,Some 210s with dual alternators have one at the rear and one where the oil coolr would normally be,The oil cooler is then positioned down below the fwd eng mount assy.We have a 55 baron and a 58 baron,Ones powered by io470s,alternator at rear ,belt driven.The 58 s IO520CB,Gear driven from the front rh side of the engine,As is the c402sBelt driven is much beter as when the alternator does a bearing and falls to bits it dosnt effect the internals of the engine.By the way the special drive couplings on gear drive alternators cost more than the alternators.Ive seen these fail and destroy the ring gear inside the engine.Cheers

[Continental-520]

gottom 2 dollar,

Is that perculiar to the T & P210s, or are there also normally aspirated 210s around with dual alternators?
If so, was it just an optional extra, or was it a particular model of 210 which had it?

Just curious.

Cheers,


520.

[bush mechanics]

520,
Mate we have 2 C210s 81 models,They both have remote oil coolers mounted on the r/h lower eng mount.Where the oil cooler would be there is room for a A/C compressor or alternator.Thats why looking up part numbers in the manuals is a real head ache as you have to be care full you order for the right serial number of your a/c.Have worked on a c210 with dual vac pumps dual alternators,It was a 79 model .Cheers