a320,CAT3-engine out=Flaps full????

[m&v]

One can shoot the approach to Cat3 minima in Conf3 flaps-less drag!. . Once one loses an engine,in the same configuration,the 'limitations'stipulate 'full flap'required????More Autopilot controllability with 'full'???. . Cheers

[mcdhu]

m&v, I think the fcom was recently revised. 3.01.22 p3 (rev33) states:'Cat2 and Cat3 fail passive autoland are only approved in config 3 and FULL, and if engine out procedures are completed before reaching 1000 ft in approach.' The title of this para is 'Engine Out'.. .Hope this helps.. .Cheers,. .mcdhu

[fantom]

so, what is the question? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Lu Zuckerman]

Here is another thing that pilots of the A-320 (and subsequent series) might want to concern themselves with and that is uncommanded retraction of the flaps during takeoff or worse yet, uncommanded extension of the flaps during cruise. The uncommanded retraction during takeoff occurred two years ago on an Air Canada A-320 but it was unreported to the Certification authorities or, Airbus. Because of this, other operators are unaware of the possibility of this happening on their aircraft.

To recover from this situation the Air Canada pilot used every ounce of available power from the engines and even with that he almost did not make it.

[320DRIVER]

Hi Lu, I think you are incorrect in your statement. If I remember correctly that uncommanded flap retraction happened due a false overspeed warning from ADR 2 which commands the flaps to retract from CONF 1 + F to CONF 1.

That is solved by a revision in our MEL stating that should we despatch with ADR 2 inop, we must not use CONF 1+F for take-off. The other takeoff flap settings i.e. CONF 2 or CONF 3 are not affected by auto-retraction.

Rgds.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: 320 Driver

I am a Reliability engineer and not a pilot so I really do not understand what you said. I don’t disagree with it I just don’t understand. I was given this information while up-front on an Air Canada A-320. I was discussing with the pilots about uncommanded operation of the flaps and slats on the A-310 and the possibility of it occurring on the A-320. Since the system architecture is the same on Airbus aircraft and the same manufacturers were involved in supplying the mechanics of the flap slat drive system the possibility of occurrence was there. After I offered that information to the pilots the co-pilot who was a four stiper and also served as the Air Canada safety pilot dug into a pile of faxes and pulled one out and showed it to me. The fax described the uncommanded operation of the flaps on an A-320 that had happened several days prior to that time. Most likely the reasons offered by you in the above post had not been determined when the fax was sent. But if the architecture is the same, there is a possibility of uncommanded operation that the computer could not stop. This is true on the A-310 and it could happen on any Airbus aircraft.

[Zeke]

Are flaps full CAT IIIa single engine approaches country specific ?

[EGGW]

I've flown the Airbus FBW for 8 years now, and my company which uses the FCOM supplied by Airbus, and just adapted for company SOPA's and procedures.. .The A320/1 is only certified for Flaps FULL autoland, even with one engine out this is the ONLY flap setting. Overweight Autolands on the 320 series aren't allowed in normal ops, as this has not been certified either. Just for information, i believe the A330 is certified for overweight autolands.. .Flaps 3 is only used 1. For practice and 2. In gusty conditions, as it gives better control authority over Flaps Full.. .Re. Uncommanded flap movement, i believe this happened on take-off a few years back to a Lufthansa jet, can't remember exactly when.. .As far as uncommanded movement in the cruise, never heard of it. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[flying-bits´nbytes]

EGGW. .May I state FCOM 3.01.22p3 & 4 Limits:. .CAT II and III AUTOLANDS are approved in CONFIG 3 and FULL...all Engines or single Engine.

FBW

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: flying-bits´nbytes ]</p>

[EGGW]

Fly'in Bits & Bites, true the FCOM does say on 3.01.22P4 that A/Land are approved with Flap Full and 3. But you are wrong with regard to Engine out.3.01.22 P3 at the bottom of the page says Fail passive A/Land ONLY approved in config full.. .As a matter of SOPA's my company only do Config Full A/Lands, but thanks all the same for pointing that out. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Boss Cat]

At last someone who knows what they are talking about! Further: The A330 is NOT certified to autoland overweight, the FCOM says that it has been "demonstrated" and will given the balance of probalities and with no weather extremes will be OK. THe A330 also downgrades to Cat 111 Single when on one engine, because "Roll Out" is not certified in this condition. The A330 does however retain CAT111 Dual after a single generator failure because that APU Gen is certified with a power split.......

[fantom]

good point. so why was not the 320? answer: because no-one thought about it at certification (probably, but I do not have the facts).. .no reason at all why it would not work though.it is split as reqd by the regs as far as I can determine. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: fantom ]</p>

[fantom]

sorry.....forgot to add:

3.01.22 p4 (A330)

'Note: under crew responsability (sic) and in case of emergency, autoland can be performed up to Max Takeoff Weight'. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Zeke]

I was asking my question as I read in some US Airways 320 notes...

[quote]All single-engine approaches follow the same procedures as normal two engine approaches except that Flaps 3 will be used in all cases. The aircraft is certified for autolanding with single engine operation down to CAT IIIA single which will require a DH of 50’.<hr></blockquote>

Just wondering if Cat III single engine autoland configuration is country specific, is the FAA certification basis for the 320 different to the JAR ?

Anyone flying a 320 series on a FAA licence care to comment ?

[mcdhu]

EGGW,. . At risk of repeating myself, I think the FCOM 3.01.22 P3 'ENGINE OUT' has been amended - witness the 'R's in the LH margin - to read as in my post above. Have you had REV 33 which probably amended it? It would be good to get to the bottom of this one.. .Cheers. .mcdhu

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[EGGW]

MCHDU M8, just checked my FCOM, what i said is correct,REV 33 yes.FLAP FULL ONLY in Fail passive. Correct lots of RRR's revision.But AFAIK its what my company has always done.

[flying-bits´nbytes]

EGGW. .Obviously we do fly different A320´s <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> because in my FCOM it says Engine out i.e. CAT III single (passive) config 3 or FULL.

FBNB

[JMJ]

Just looking at FCOM 3, for our A320 a/c Cat11 & Cat111 fail passive autoland ONLY approved in conf full, and if engine out procedures completed before reaching 1000 feet in approach.. .In the next few months we are getting a couple of brand new A320's from Airbus and having just done the ammendments for the new MSN the ENGINE-OUT para on page 3.01.22 p3 states conf 3 & conf full are approved for these a/c.

[Zeke]

Would you be able to indicate your engine type and power output when you indicate what the FCOM says, what are we dealing with

A320-111 CFM56-5A1. .A320-211 CFM56-5A1. .A320-212 CFM56-5A3. .A320-214 CFM56-5B4. .A320-214 CFM56-5B4/P. .A320-231 V2500-A1. .A320-232 V2527-A5. .A320-233 V2527E-A5

Reading between the lines from what poeple posted above it seems the V2500 powered seem to be certified for CONF 3 or FULL.

Z

[mcdude]

Just checked my FCOM, REV 33 which states CONF FULL only for A320, and CONF 3 and FULL for A321. This assumes engine out prox completed by 1000ft.

We operate IAE A320-232 & A321-231. Revision 33 also applies to some brand new A320s and A321s yet to be received.

Maybe the confusion here is related to A320/321 differences?

mcdude

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: mcdude ]

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: mcdude ]</p>

[JMJ]

CORRECTION.. .My previous post was in error,. .Just had a closer look at the MSN's on the bottom of the FCOM pages, our company operates both A320 and the A321 with more of both types arriving soon.. .The engine on the A320 is the IAE2527-A5.. .FCOM 3.01.22p4 AUTO LAND CAT11 & CAT111 approved in CONF3 & CONF FULL.. .FCOM 3.01.22p3 ENGINE OUT CAT11 & CAT111 fail passive autoland are only approved in CONF FULL, and if eng-out procedures completed before 1000ft.. .Sorry for the earlier bulls##t statement.

[mcdhu]

Blimey, what a dog's breakfast! Although we fly all CFM powered A320 and 321, the FCOMs issued are for the 321. I'll have a look at a 320 FCOM next time out in a 320. Anyone yet got enough info to draw this thread to a logical conclusion? I guess it's one for the base trainers!. .Cheers. .mcdhu

[EGGW]

Yeah seems as much doesn't it MCHDU, i reckon its as much type/engine specific and also on the updates of the FCOM you have. Bottom line, do what your ops manual/FCOM says.

BTW i fly 320 with CFM and 321 with IAE.

[mcdhu]

Possibly the last thread. Went flying today in a brand new A320 with CFM56 5B4P engines. From the Limitations Section of the FCOM in the ac, Engine out Cat2 and 3a limited to Config Full only. There doesn't seem to be any consistency in all this. Oh well, ours is not to reason why......... .Cheers. .mcdhu. .Still <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[mcdude]

To summarise for A320/321 CAT II/III autoland;

Normal(CAT II/CAT III SINGLE/CAT III DUAL). .A320 approved CONF3 and CONF FULL. .A321 approved CONF3 and CONF FULL

Engine-out(CAT II/CAT III SINGLE)*. .A320 approved CONF FULL. .A321 approved CONF3 and CONF FULL

* Engine-out procedures complete before reaching 1000ft.

Clear as mud?!

mcdude

[ColdnFoggy]

Could the differences have something to do with the double-slotted flaps on the 321??

[Big-Pants]

So its not your day..............you lose an engine, and you need to autoland !!. .config Full seems fine to me!

ps for the techies.......if you autoland single engine you are limited to idle reverse on an IAE powered 320......why?

[Zeke]

Below the line,

Think of what the autobrakes are giving you (decel rates), and what the effect of using reverse is ... does it change the decel rate ?

Autobrakes LOW 1.7m/s². .Autobrakes MED 3.0m/s². .Autobrakes MAX 6.0m/s²

So what to you achieve using asymmetric reverse in terms of decl rates, nothing. You actually will increase directional control problems, and increase brake wear (the carbon brakes increase wear when operated below 250 ºC) which is typical when reverse is used.

In an emergency the best option would be so set the park brake and lock the wheels up before thinking of going for reverse, at least you have a better chance of staying on the runway.

Z

[mcdude]

"if you autoland single engine you are limited to idle reverse on an IAE powered 320......why? "

According to my FCOM only the A321 (IAE; not sure about CFM)has the IDLE reverse limitation with the additional limitation max crosswind 15kts. A320 does not have this limit.

My guess is it is a control issue with the longer fuselage?

mcdude (trying not to be techy...)

[mcdhu]

Yup, same limitation applies to the CFM powered 321!. .Cheers. .mcdhu

[m&v]

So gentlemen,after two pages of chat-what's the answer??If one is performing an approach to Cat3 wx using config 3,and one loses the proverbial engine-Why does one have to revert to config'full'????It's stated so in the limitation chapter!! Why are full flap required???. . The only reason (I can figure) is that the A/p might have more 'control'with config full.Shades of dragonAire's HongKong?? Incident?????

A 90 degree g/slope will give you the least rollout!!

[m&v]

So gentlemen,after two pages of chat-what's the answer??If one is performing an approach to Cat3 wx using config 3,and one loses the proverbial engine-Why does one have to revert to config'full'????It's stated so in the limitation chapter!! Why are full flap required???. . The only reason (I can figure) is that the A/p might have more 'control'with config full.Shades of dragonAire's HongKong?? Incident?????

A 90 degree g/slope will give you the least rollout!!