Movers v Loadies (Merged)

[Echo 5]

Gentlemen,
In deference to Muppet Leader whose "Loadies for the RSAF" has turned into a battleground I am starting this new topic so that all combatants can partake in a bit of sparring.

6N,
If you stop blowing your trumpet for a moment I will refresh your memory.
Prior to the ALM was the AQM and before that,up to the mid 1960's (as I recall) the role was carried out by NCO's from Trade Group 18 (Supply) on two or three year tours.
Running parallel to this, other members of the Supply trade were being trained as Movers.
However, whereas Loadmasters only had knowledge of one aircraft type, The Movers could work on multi type aircraft.
So you see, the Loadmasters were only average NCO's but the Movers were in fact very smart Suppliers.
It was only when the manning levels of NCO Suppliers got dangerously low that the Loadmaster trade was opened up to volunteers from Clerk Secretarial and Dog Handlers !!

[Muppet Leader]

Heard a rumour.
About 2/3 months back apparently, all ALM course members were informed that the Ministry of Defence would no longer designate them as `loadmasters` but some other generic name. The `new` name being a more generic type. The reason apparently is to allow for flexibility in allocating personnel to various aircrew functions. They are to say the least peed-off big time although they will retain Sgt rank and actually slightly higher pay as a result, they feel the badge is downgraded.

From 1st Apr 2003, RAF 'Airmen (Aircrew)' became known as 'Non-Commissioned Aircrew'. The new branch of Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) replaced all four trades (Air Electronics Operator, Air Engineer, Air Signaller and Air Loadmaster) and new graduates will be awarded a new 'Rear Crew' brevet. Air Electronics Officers and Navigators will now be known as Weapon System Officers (WSOs).

http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.co.uk/home/nca_home.htm

What about the other new one, WSOb (Warming Systems Oven and Brew).


There is a difference from base movements to down route, or mobile movements.

C130.
Who plans the load?
Who builds the pallets?
Who loads the pallets?
Who loads the backbreaking 6-hour flat floor load?
Who trims the aircraft?
Who hands the completed airframe over, for someone in a growbag to say “Ooooh thank you. And by the way could you lash my suitcase down on the ramp, as I’ve got new gloves and I mustn’t get them dirty”.

And then you get down-route.

Who unloads the aircraft?
Who completes a role change from flat floor to 17c / 17f (and vice versa)
Who loads the aircraft?
And then gets the aircraft back in the air again in three hours (with a six man team –Officer, Sgt, Cpl and three airmen)?
Showing my age now, talking about BFPO666 in the early eighties.

Who manages an ERO of 42 tons of grain in Ethiopia, and gets a rubber-to-rubber time of 14 minutes?

Who wins ERO competitions for a vehicle and two trailers, in the States two years running (although gets disqualified for cheating 1st year) then competes in the assault course with the Regiment?

Now change aircraft type . . . . . . . .
VC10
Who kindly loads all the crew bags and their DFs after loading a full vent bag load in 120-degree heat? (And don’t mind too much that the cup of luke warm water offered by the Steward has got things floating in it, like dead sheep and canoeists!)(Where did the loadie get to?)

Who gets back to the hotel 7 hours after the front-end chaps, to find out that the Co left the imprest in the hotel safe 2500 miles away?
Who sorts it out by sweet-talking the local Embassy staff?

Now change aircraft type. . . . . . .
L1011
CH47
Puma
Belfast
C17

And so the story carries on.
:ok:

[RoboAlbert]

Golly, I had no idea how important you are; clearly the world would stop revolving without you.

Well done.

[WASALOADIE]

Who's smart enough to get someone else to load, trim, re-role the a/c for them whilst they are eating thier inflight meal / getting thier DF's, keeping thier gloves clean? Yet they are trained to do all these jobs and supervise the muppets and get paid more for it!.

[bigley]

And one more question MP

Who gives a flying F@@k?


BTW

Have never seen a mover load a Puma - ever, but please correct me should I be wrong.

[Tiger_mate]

Ive loaded a Puma, several times in fact.

But then I am Aircrew and movers are not!!

I do suspect there is an escaped Troll on PP at the moment. Good hunting you loadies!

[Muppet Leader]

I know I'm a bit long in the tooth,
But there once was a unit by the name of JHSU.
I joined at its' inception.
Only Pumas.
Oh dear, is that all.
What about the Super Puma, Gazelle, Wessex, Chinnook,
And then what about the various types of former Eastern Bloc rotaries that I handled in places like Ethiopia, South Africa, Beruit, and so forth. So many I can't remember all their designations
So you're only qualified in the one then?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

E number,
"So you see, the Loadmasters were only average NCO's but the Movers were in fact very smart Suppliers".

OK clever dickey got any of your baldricks on 43K....................................thought not, whose smart now ok:ok:



ML,
Too many who's :yuk: Maybe you should have done better at school, but whatever sod off and do the course, if your good enough get the badge, then come back and tell us all about it.

all spelling mistakes are "df"alcohol induced

[Muppet Leader]

ABIW
Only 43 Oh dear!
I admit I no longer take the Queens' shilling, but some of my ground staff take home more than that, without overtime!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

ML,
As a civie your input is welcome,:ok: however I somewhat doubt the integrity of your last post. but rest assured I will be off to Thomas Cook on monday to see if there are any tickets left for trips to your ideal world.

Stop press ........"Bagage handlers on sh@t loads" In your dreams:yuk:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ex Oggie]

Okay, I was an oggie, but I spent the best part of 4 years of my service working as a Mover pretty much full time, including lots of MAMS tasking. I had been a civvy loadmaster prior to that.

Muppet Leaders post about the inception of JHSU reminded me of a chat with a few of my ex Sqdn colleagues who were there at the start as well. The story went that the Army and RAF decided to combine for helo ops. The RAF selected the best and fittest Movers they had. The army selected the best and fittest logistics guys they had. When they finally amalgamated together for the basic course, the RAF guys had to take time out while the 'brown jobs' had to spend much time and effort to even get close to the Movers fitness and ability.

I am sure ML will confirm or deny, but thats how I heard it. 'Nuff said about a Movers ability for me.........

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

As I recall the JHSU section at Laarparts was run by 2 MALM's, of course I have been drinking and it was almost 8 years ago:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Follow Me Through]

ML

Following your layout:

So who sleeps down the back of the aircraft for 8 hours at a time?
So who claims crew pay for not working in the air - actually sleeping? Nice bit of staffing and Empire building though.
Who sends a 6 man team on 'nice trips' knowing that the team will be scratching around for jobs to do?
So who are the biggest poseurs at airshows in flying suits? Surely the Mkwhatever flying suit cannot be the best clothing to carry big boxes in?
So who lurks on Military Aircrew sites when ground sites would be more appropriate?


So who loads/trims the C130 for TS roles - believe it or not the aircraft is tactical. The aircraft has spent a large portion of its existence without a mover in sight doing para, AE, MSPs, RIB, etc,etc not to mention AAR, fighter affil, etc. Maybe its because the ALM trims the aircraft pre-flight for the sortie and also calculates the trim that will occur when the first and then the second MSP have departed without the benefit of sleeping ballast aft of the wheel -well.


I have to admit I have never seen a bunch of movers get an aircraft back in the air - unless you know differently? Did not know you could reach the throttles from aft of the paradoors!

[Blakey875]

FMT

Nice to see you're getting excited! Why is there a bunk bed on the flight deck and are you saying it's never used? The ground eng's also claim the crew pay and don't work in the air. On nice trips it is Group policy to task a MAMS team just in case the aircraft gets re-tasked as happened a couple of years ago for the Montserrat Volcano and Hurricane relief. A nice swan turned into a month of shuttles between the islands. The movers very rarely wear the Mk14 Nomex Loading Suit these days as a previous OC thought he would save the RAF some money and make them dress as pongos instead! Shame the GEs, Aeromed. ATSy etc didn't follow suit. Doing TS trims is not black magic - remember they used the same procedure for the PLR Airbridge tasks Ascension to the Falklands for years..... they can even work out the tipping index on the reverse of the trim, aren't they clever.

ABIW

Bit ill informed re-Laarbruch! The i/c JHSU was an Army Captain and the 2i/c was a real RAF WO. Methinks you're confusing the Motleys (MAOTs) with the real management. True they haven't got one back in the air yet although I manage quite well on my Microsoft version. However in civvie street apart from all the boys Loadmastering (Their job title is not under threat) others have gone on to fly the things for Virgin, British Airways, TNT/Air Foyle, British Midland and United. Until he recently moved to Spain the Chief Glider Pilot at Lasham was also an ex-muppet. Not to worry though as I still like you - you make a brill cup of tea.

[Grob Driver]

Muppet Leader,

Gosh, you are my hero Sir.
I don't know anyone as important as you are! Well done.
How will the RAF continue without you?

GD

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

B875,
You are correct, as my recolection of Laarparts was somewhat clouded by some very nice ice cold "df" liquid. But I do take umbridge with the following:-

"However in civvie street apart from all the boys Loadmastering (Their job title is not under threat) others have gone on to fly the things for Virgin, British Airways, TNT/Air Foyle, British Midland and United"

Just a thought but if it's that great out there why the fu@k are you still in:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[TAC Queen]

This is the first time I have posted on PP but I felt I had to
As a Ex Mover and a current ALM I feel I can justify my post.

1. ALM's do not just do catering. In fact there are some that dont do any. If catering is the reason people are not applying for aircrew, then can can they stop posting on this AIRCREW FORUM.
If you feel you can do it better then apply and prove it if not shut up. I did it so its not that hard.

2, Some movers like to talk about how they can do the job better. But talk about in depth regulations, Tech and Gen and emergancy proceedures and CATERING :{ they go all quiet.

3. Movers dont always plan, build and load the aircraft with a completed trim. Infact I can't remember the last time I was given a trim down route.

4, ML, Its not hard to load a PUMA so please dont tell us how hard it is. It is a lot harder to rig a underslung load though. Is that what you are talking about???

5, ALM's dont know every thing, not this one anyway. They are not the font of all knowledge. I am definitely not; but I do not ever, ever, ever blame the other shift.

7, Yes aircrew do whine like a servicable J engine

All spelling mistakes are because I can't spell.

[Echo 5]

ABIW

There you go again - on about alcohol. Really sad.I hope your boss doesn't suss out who you are else you'll be into the drying out clinic minus brevet.

Blakey875.

Yes I remember well having to complete the remaining sorties due to the Loadmaster being injured.I think the story may be worth telling.
A 3 ton truck was being loaded onto the aircraft when it snagged the paratroop jump step which was stowed in the top of the fuselage and secured with lashing tape.
The Loadmaster was actually present while the graft was going on and he asked one of the other (flying) crew members to go up and cut the tape.
Now, nobody knew what was going through the Loadie's mind but any child will tell you that when an object is released from any height it will drop.
As the Movers watched on somewhat bemused the tape was cut, the inevitable happened,and the result was the Loadie received a severly gashed and fractured leg,a bruised ego, and an in depth
introduction to Terminal Velocity. On the positive side I got back to base several hours before the rest of the team.

ABIW (again).

I am SO sorry but when you said 43K I thought you meant KNOTS but you really meant MONEY.
Well yes - I am lucky enough to earn that type of salary,and I have a paid up house in UK, and I have an apartment in Cyprus.
And you know what, when I'm lying on my sun bed at Curium Bay and I see Albert fly over I think to myself " I bet he's carrying at least 200 pounds of excess baggage.

TAC Queen,

Were you really an ex Mover? I thought TAC Queen would have been more appropriate for someone on the Cabin Crew Forum.
I bet your SAMO gave you a glowing report when you went skipping off to aircrew selection. I suppose you must have found 95 % of the training pretty easy what with your Movements background. Coming up with something a bit more adventurous than NATO Standard tea or coffee was probably a bit more difficult eh.
Anyway back to your post. Check out Para1 particularly the last sentence. OWN GOAL or what!!
While you are at it go back to the menu and read what it says under the heading "Military Aircrew". Yes that's right, the forum isn't just for those in grow bags is it?

[Grimweasel]

Gentlemen, please. This site shouldn't descend into a LYN slagging match. Every one in the RAF/Army is an integral part of the system that helps to get the equipment from A to B. This squabble shows the viewing civil populus that we are nothing more than a bunch of up-tight pompus tw@ts who can't get on with each other. I work daily with both ALM's and Movers. Each and every one to their own is what I say. If Movers are so narked by the whole aircrew thang then why not shut up whinging and go for Aircrew selection? Both Loadie's and movers work very hard and when they are not busy they can play hard to.
There are too many people in the forces that are fazed by rank and seem to have an infieriority complex. You know that when you join the forces there will always be people above you and to give you orders. You accept it. It this starts to bother you then maybe you are now too long in the tooth and would be better served by getting out and being a Civie. FAR too many 'Blue-jobs' get above their station all the time, believing themselves to be the person in complte charge. Too much empire building. Not enough team work!!
The movers have always wanted our job (B2 Hanger) but as long as we keep doing the job with half the manpower and twice the productivity and 1/8th of the moaning, we shall prevail.
Personally I believe the biggest waste of RAF cash to be the PJI's who swan around the world just to shout "go!....go!.......go!...." and look good(well so they think!!). Next time you are down route and unoading the kite, have a good look for the PJI. You will find him making excuses not to help and getting others to offload their baggage for them. Wasters....rant over.

[Rude C'man]

Well Movers and ALM, this forum just shows what important lifes you all lead: you must be rushed off your feet !
Slagging each other off never won any war , work with each other and compliment one anothers abilities. Take a look at JHSU and the rotary world , an excelent team working together towards a common goal.

Get a life will you !
Any spelling errors are cos i cant be arsed
:mad:

[Muppet Leader]

RA.
No the world wouldn’t stop if movers did not exist.
It would just seem like it for everyone else.

AWBIW.
I’m not “in” anymore.
Got my chance, (with a little help from an inheritance), and took it .
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not complaining – far from it.

After all, who could grumble after spending weeks on end in old Vegas during Red Flag, with one aircraft a week re-supply at Nellis, with some hydraulic fluid and a new pair of gloves for Nigel.
A quick swap of the hire van for three Corvettes and a tour of the West Coast each week, until the next flight.
Then do it all again in Calgary for Med Man.

Ghurkha rotation from the Far East.
Weeks and weeks flogging round all these places that you had never heard of

NATO conferences with golf at St Andrews, with the Secret Service bods from over the water.
Even commandeered SACEURs’ car once, with him still in it. Lovely chap, shame I can’t remember his name.

And the worst are those Navy lads and their warm water trials on their nasty torpedoes, in the Bahamas!
Eight weeks in a condo on Coco Beach – Its’ rough.

This list just goes on and on.

But it taught me about life.

You make your own chances. You just have to know which ones to take.

Just trying to make a point earlier that not all those rough tatty movers that you meet are all the same.
We are all human, and as such we will all make mistakes at some point in our lives.
Some just make more than others.


Ps; Yes I’ve had the operation to get my knuckles just off the floor

[RoboAlbert]

ML

The sad thing is that I think you probably believe that.

:(

[c130 alm]

Muppet Leader are you saying that all movers could be Loadmasters?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

E numbers,
A couple of thoughts here,


"And you know what, when I'm lying on my sun bed at Curium Bay and I see Albert fly over I think to myself " I bet he's carrying at least 200 pounds of excess baggage".

I know it really juvenile but how do you know, when looking up that we are carrying "muppets"

"Well yes - I am lucky enough to earn that type of salary,and I have a paid up house in UK, and I have an apartment in Cyprus"............bet you also think you have a big willy:rolleyes:

A muppet on that much money.................Can anyone else smell bullsh@t?

Don't slag off TAC Queen....he succeded where, based on your vitriol here, you so obviously failed.


all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Muppet Leader]

C130alm.

Not even if Hell froze over.

FM Thru
Just a thought, but I didn’t know anyone did a trim down route.
Just stick to the good old “load it all down the front ‘till the crew door hits the floor, then load it all down the back ‘till the crew door comes to the top of my flying boot, and we’ll be somewhere near”.

Can’t go far wrong with that
:ok:

[Krystal n chips]

Gosh ! What a revelation this thread has become. And there was I suffering from the delusion over the years as to the true role of the Loadie. You see, I had always assumed ( yes, I know "never assume-check" ) that, being at the leading edge of innovation, the Air Farce had simply developed the role of Loadie in those pre in flight vid. days as it's very own version of I.F.E. :confused: . I make a couple of exceptions here however. Notably the helo guys, who always seemed to be more down to earth, and a certain Texas ANG LoadMistress--aaaagh;) heaven on legs !!. As for the rest, well, there were some real "drama queens" ( both genders ! ) whom I came into contact with over the years as pax. Not sure which was / is the best example to give though. The hero who gave us a pious lecture about " MY cabin" ( wasn't aware he owned the four engined relic at the time ! ) and who, after about the sixth / seventh impact with the Oxfordshire earth--recyled his breakfast, dinner and tea----all over "HIS" Cabin :ok:
Or the star who felt that throwing the lunch boxes at the pax en route from Colt to RAFG on an Albert was "good fun"----and retreated upstairs for the rest of the flight when they were thrown back at him. Or the civilian version ( ex RAF note ) who flooded the E/E bay on a 737----cos he couldn't find the Very Large Stop Cock--in front of his eyes in the galley.! However, now that I have read these missives from various Loadies, I realise how wrong I am to make these assumtions about this special breed -----but not the hours of endless entertainment they provide :D

[EESDL]

Typical, Movers on a Mil Aircrew forum...... line them up against a wall (next to the coppers) and shoot them.
Saw a mover try to pass herself off as 'aircrew, (Bangor Maine - 01) she was very embarrassed when the chap she was lying too handed her a doughnut in the morning, as his role as 'Captain' the next morning.
Movers - get a life.
Although, I must confess, I may have met sopme useful memebers of the RAF who happened to be Movers.

[PC7anyone?]

9 pax and 9 bags to go from Lynham to Greece. Checked in 2.5 hrs ahead of take off. Other freight a Landie & Trailer. Get to Greece......only 8 bags. Nice one movers. Luckily OC Movements on the aircraft doing a quick visit. Movers got a rocket, I got my bag the next day! And the stories go on.

Simple really, if you don't like what you do then change role and cash in with the aircrew!

[Blakey875]

Some interesting comments since my last visit, both sensible and spiteful. ABIW thanks - up till your comment I thought Tac Queen was female! We all know that all movers would not make Loadies but please remember that some don't want to be, enjoy what they're doing and in spite of the minority of moaners get on with the job with what sometimes limited resources they have. On recent Ops were it not for their fraternising and horse trading with other nations to borrow their equipment nothing would roll.

I find it ironic that before the AQM branch was introduced in 1964 that you had to be a SNCO Mover or Supplier to carry out flying duties whereas post 1964 you are made a SNCO before you can prove you are fit for flying duties. I know most of the wind-ups amongst the ground trades is the Aircrew Instant Sgt where everyone else have had to slog and work for years to gain that same status. The Canadians have coped for years with Cpl Aircrew and even the Army Air Corps have Cpl Pilots....

Yes I agree that not all Movers are Angels but the same applies to the other half. I've got many examples but refuse to lower the tone any further as long as those standing on the left behave.

I was once asked "What's the difference between a Terrorist and a Loadmaster?" ......... "Well, you can negotiate with a Terrorist!"

Keep the good comments coming boys but please don't lower the tone.

[TAC Queen]

Echo 5

Yes I really was a mover and no my SAMO did not give me a glowing report. I left the trade with a selection of knifes in my back for daring to improve my lot. I really did enjoy being a mover and still have many friends in the trade. Even after my farewell presents. Still have never had to buy a knife since.
No I did not find 95% of the training easy as I was never instructed on Electrics, Hydraulics, MET, Combat survival, and a host of other fields and lets not forget catering at RAFMS. Yes my mover background did and still helps me. But the point I suppose I am badly trying to but across is that being a mover does not help all that much through ALM training.
There are some very good movers out there who will go to hell and back to get the job done properly. Unfortunately there are those who don’t give a dam and when it all goes wrong they blame every one but themselves. I always find this funny when a mover starts but BS me with things a ALM would not understand (ALP SACS FDCS) and then I inform them of my background and watch the panic sweep across their face.
Every one makes mistakes; lets just own up to them, learn from them and try not to repeat them.

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell

[ENG]

Having spent most of my flying career with a Loadie or Mover down the back I find both a real pleasure to fly with. The helpful atitude and professionalism of both these trades has made me look forward to my next posting. Nimrods or Sentry.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Thanks ENG;

Could you put another log on the fire...there's a good chap!! Oh sorry, I can do that all by myself now!!

This thread has been hilarious reading...and a little sad too. I'm a loadie, ex ground trade but not mover and I can vouch that there are ggreat blokes (& blokettes) in both branches...with a liberal smattering of important people too. I like to think that I get on with movers generally and can spot the hard workers v the bullsh**ers fairly easily.

And as a loadie....I can decipher the ALP (even tho I don't use them now), can understand the SACS but admit I'm lost about FDCS.

Anyone for a cup of tea.....you know where the galley is.

Regards to Most
J Bloke...
:D

[TAC Queen]

J Bloke
SORRY, Did not mean to sound patronising,
Ill get me coat

Question, is this new version of the J v K but now using trades against each other??

PS don’t do catering on TAC,
NICE!!

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell

[Huron Topp]

As 875 stated, us Canucks have gotten along quite well with corporal aircrew. Stripes come with talent, not with the job. By the way, us backward colonials have the problem solved, ALL loadies are movers.

[M134]

NCA ‘earn’ their stripes the same way a commission is earned in the RAF; through hard work and the ability to pass through the filters to the operational side of training. Ground trades also need to pass the same filters to get to SNCO however the holes START pretty big in their mesh and pretty much anyone with the right attitude can walk through them. As the screw tightens along the way the good guys pass through the ever-tighter scrutiny becoming SNCO’s as the less able falls away.

[c130 alm]

I find all this very sad. How anyone can say that Movers are better than Loadies or vice versa is beyond me. There are good and bad in both trades. And I know plenty of good and plenty of bad from both trades.

There is a system in place to recruit NCA and love it or hate it its here to stay. If Movers want to become Loadies then they can all apply just like the DE`s can. Being a good Loadie is not just about knowing how to lash a load in correctly (although important) but there is so much more to the job. I am all for as many people as possible applying for Loadie, regardless of past situation, as all it can do is improve the calibre of the trade.

All this discussion is doing is causing harmful ill feeling between the 2 trades. As someone has already said, we should be trying to improve co-operation and help bring the 2 trades together seeing as they work so close already.

Now how about giving it a rest??!!

[dc8loadie]

MY my, it seems that things do not change on transport ops, movers still hate aircrew (not just loadies) and vice versa.
i recently left the movements trade after 25 years and can say i thoroughly enjoyed working with loadies in my time on mobile and in base load control, i worked very closely alongside some excellent aircrew on my last tour with an army unit which had a herc and chinook crews attached.
so i find all this so called "banter" horrifying, we are supposed to be moving forward in these days of dwindling funds and equipment and surely the easiest way is for you all to work together.
c130 alm and now a 'J' bloke thank you for your intelligent and adult approach to this discussion.
tac queen get a life, i was on the oggies and am now a civvie loadmaster with out the chip that you seem to have grown.
:cool:

[globefan]

Having not been on this site for some time I thought this particular thread might prove interesting. Ultimately, however, I find it all very sad and a great shame that nothing seems to change however hard some of us try.

I applaud c130alm and dc8loadie for their balanced approach. Some sensible comment amongst all the dross.

I must say that it is from us elder 'statesmen' that the new boys and girls (in both trade groups) get some if not all of their opinions and reading some of the diatribe on here it is no wonder that things will always be difficult.

And before anyone asks I have done this job for 16+ yrs both Lyn and Brize, both on a very old prop and a very new jet. A good part of my time now is spent building and maintaining bridges between ALMs and Movs - and this could not be done without the express assistance of some top blokes within the Movs empire.

Each and everyone of us could tell numerous stories slagging each other off - but lets face it there are more important things in life. Unless of course - there is no life....

[TAC Queen]

To all
The point I was trying to put across but obviously failed was that if you want to do the job then apply.
I’m just sick of people saying I can do your job but never getting off their B-hinds and applying.
I know lots of movers who would make excellent ALM's. But being a mover does not make you a ALM. The same as being a NAV does not mean you are a pilot.
I’m still shocked that I got through selection (as are most of my Sqn). But I did and know I am here.
Be proud of what you are. I was proud of being a mover and still am. I only left because I felt I needed a change and more of a challenge (plus a extra 16K helped). I did not think I was a ALM. I was a mover with different qualifications and job specs.

I did not mean to cause anyone offence with my posts and apologise if I did.

But can we all get on with our own jobs and stop trying to do other peoples. As I have already said if you think you can do it then do it.
There is a reason for movers and a reason for ALM's. The system works, ALM's are the last check not the last word.

All spelling mistakes are because I can't spell

[6nandneutral]

I suppose that it was me who started this off with my reply to ML. What annoys me is the assumption that being a mover automatically makes you a candidate to become an ALM. As has been mentioned before there is good and bad in both, but as aircrew if we f***k up we put our hands up, we don't blame the other shift. Which reminds me that the best way forward would be to sack the 'other shift'. I do however thing that it is worthwhile to give the good movers some praise. There have been many occasions when they have sorted out many handling problems on the ground and provided the crews with excellent DF supplies when we normally wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so. What I'm trying to say is that a good mover can be very useful and they are very much appreciated. Where they let themselves down sometimes is with the lack of supervision. On many occasions down route the movers team leader will get too involved in the loading operation and the supervisory element is lost until the ALM checks it. If the team leader was less hands on then they would surely spot any errors earlier. I do realise that this is not always possible due to high workloads and manpower shortages. In these days of many ops we should stick to what we know and work more as a team. So maybe it is time to close this thread, initially I thought that it would be a good source of banter but it has only become a slagging match to the detriment of both trades.
ML checked out your profile and yes it does make good reading, but as TQ pointed out the loading is not all there is to being an ALM.
TQ do you still pratice your C & D drill in a gentlemans club - (private joke).

[Echo 5]

6N,
Thanks for your last post .Yes I suppose it was you and ABIW that kicked this off but I am equally culpable for taking the bait.
I started this thread in good faith and like yourself thought it would be a good source of banter.The best laid plans however !!
Just one thing in conclusion. I have read and re-read all of the posts and unless I have missed something I cannot see where anyone has stated that they as a Mover would automatically become a candidate for ALM.
I'll shut up now.

[moggie]

For Muppet Leader - a heartfelt thank you to movers from all VC10/Tristar aircrew.

We always loved that 0200 wakeup call so that we could fly to Akrotiri in time to offload, turnround and depart in time for you lot of wasters to sod off down to the beach at 1400L.

[DummyRun]

To All, I'm not a loadie or a mover,

However, when was the last mover that got 'E' cat'ed? Was it the last giggling (female) Fg Off Mover @ LCRA who apologised to me 'cos my aerothingy only got 9000' instead of 25,000',ooops these poundy kilos thingys are sooo terribly complicated when your as pretty and blonde as I am, or was it the ALM who got stiched by some really sad 'aircrew mate' who spotted his harness wasn't attached to the the correct floor point.

To ALM's - Be nice to pax and if you can avoid treading on them just after they've got their head down that's cool. P.S. If the hyd sys has dumped the ACAWS might mention it.

To Movers,

Errr, b@gger, I'm redundant, the Flt Lt O i/c Baggage Handling obviously becomes the a/c cdr, the Flt Sgt looks after ATSY, ah no the Flt Sgt ATSY does that, so the Flt Sgt looks after the Sgt who looks after the 2 Cpls who looks after the SAC.

AL1.
L/Cpl Helpful (47AD), is in charge of 3 Pvte's putting stuff on aircraft, and er, f@ck which tw@t put the crew's bags on, raid the rations and f@ck off, (1st in, last out!) UKBagagehandlersmoto.

Any customers, UKBAGS excluded, have a good word?.:)

[BEagle]

Now look - do let's get some fairness here. There are good and bad, eager and lazy in most trades......

Good Movs: The chaps who managed to unload, break down, rebuild and reload some very 'busy' pallets in Freetown in the roasting heat - whilst all the ALM did was moan about why we were taking back a 'non-military' passenger and tried to find a reason not to. This was a merchant mariner involved with the ongoing Op; so I told the ALM we were taking him no matter what, to stop bitching and to look after the movs team who were working hard to get us away on time.

Bad Movs: The witch at ASI who decided to offload one of my ATSY coppers who had just spent a couple of days guarding the ac in Africa so that she could put a 'high priority' passenger on board. "He can get the next Herc back" was her attitude. Fortunately we made contact with the southbound Timmy on its way in to ASI and asked them if they could speak to their chums who were due to operate the northbound Tommy a couple of hours later and whether they could get our Plod on as crew. This they did - and he got the last laugh as the Tommy went back pedal-to-the-metal and was home a few minutes before us as we'd had to stage via Dakar! But why didn't the MovO think of that?

[blackbelt]

Anyway whats Muppet ldr doing on the AIRCREW forum?Should be on the wannabes forum AIRCREW :ok:

[dc8loadie]

I see that this thread is still degenerating, although as usual Beagle has tried to instil a bit of common sense, as a civilian loadie and retired mover of 25 years, I have seen both sides of the coin and there are undoubtedly both good and bad movers/loadies, however there are also both good and bad "front end crew" such as dummy run and moggie who seem to excel at slagging off movers.
why dont we put this particular thread to bed and stop causing anymosity between 2 trades which have to work closely together to get a difficult job done.;)

[moggie]

DC8loadie - I hardly think that one (factually correct) post qualifies as "mover bashing".

[Ralf Wiggum]

Always remember the crusty old MLM who called in at our cushy Det before flying on to the sharp end of an Op. I helped him and his mates convey 2 car loads of duty free stuff to the Herc for their Xmas bash back home in Blighty, but when asked if he could take 2 slabs of beers to the ground lads at the sharp end, took a deep breath and said "It's more than my jobs worth". Tw@t!!!

Funniest bit was when UK MAMS bloke dragged the MALM to one side and threatened to kick 2 tons of what loadies are full of, out of him. Still no joy so my UK MAMS pal threatened to call customs back in the UK. MALM, with his nose put out then backed down. Shame that the idiot couldn't give a flying f@ck about the guys at the sharp end.

Both have a job to do, but Movers, in my experience, have a more flexible attitude without being full of their own self importance.

[bigley]

Can't help but think that there is another side to this story. Perhaps the boys at the said sharp end were not allowed a few slabs, maybe there were in an arabic nation. Just goes to prove that there is more than one aspect to every tale.:*

[M134]

To be fair you would need to let us know why the said MAMS pers didn’t take the slabs for you as I assume they would have been on the ac to carry the can if the plan went wrong.

[globefan]

I know this thread is getting a tad tiresome now - but I would just like someone to clear something up for me, ideally ML. Just perusing the profiles of certain contributors and I am a little confused as to one of the alleged units worked on by ML, namely the one involving a highly clandestine (not) outfit in wilts? Since when have movers been assigned there? And no this isn't a dig I'm just trying to work it all through, bit confused... Furthermore - re the comment on an earlier input about loading duties and responsibilities - Now change aircraft type...... C17. Please make sure one's facts are entirely accurate - not sure any of the guys over there would agree with you.

[c130 alm]

Well Ralf Wiggum yet another Mover to start a slanging match between our 2 trades! Im sure there are plenty of aircrew out there that can give similar stories where the aircrew come off worse.

Question.. Is it true that when cars indulge out the owners usually donate a crate of beer (to the movers and aircrew)? Ive never seen any of it if it is.

M134... without sounding stupid.. What on Earth are you on about?

Globefan... Good point about the C17. I seem to remember a meeting when the C17 was being discussed. The questions was raised about a second Loadmaster. A Mover stood up and said he thought it should be a Mover. A certain pilot who is on Hercs told him to sit down and shut up. (It might not be true but I did hear it from said Pilot)

[TAC Queen]

BORED
Can we start on someone else now?
How about K v J
Oh sorry apparently we have done that already.
How about the admin peeps.
Oh sorry apparently we have done that as well.
I know lets all get together and have a fight.
Oh the wife has just told me that we have just done that for real.

No, No wait I have it.
How about starting a thread about people who don’t look at PP
That way it will never get nasty.

P.S. I think you are all great.
Obviously that does not include Co-Pilots

:ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

[Good Mickey]

Hmm... where on earth did this thread spring up from? I thought that movers and loadies worked well together. In fact a good example of this is the A400M where for once they (the customer) seem to have got the right people for the job at the earliest opportunity. I mean there are both Loadies and Movers designing the freight bay as we speak and a damm good job they are making of it too. Unlike the J model farce where the subject matter experts for the back end were pilots and hence we ended up with a crock of ****.
Anyway, the bottom line is that ALMs are employed to check the work of Movers - period.

ps. I am always suspiscious of ppruners who have handles that indicate they are full of their own self importance - get my drift Muppet Leader!!

[M134]

c130 ALM

I was replying to Ralph Wiggum. It was a whole post away, sorry.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Still Stackers regardless of their job description.................


PS. If movers are Sooooo good, why do many of us still have to endure the surreal South Cerney experience?

[Mover 2]

Wow!

What a great site, I have never seen so much banter between Aircrew/Loadies and Movers..........

Movers, keep up the good work!!!
Loadies, try to do some work!!!

More to follow...........

Mines a large Keo!!!:cool:

[force_ale]

Just remember, unlike the LCRA movers don't drink and drive.:rolleyes:

[Blakey875]

c130 WSO sorry ALM!

Nearly 30 years ago the practice of donating two crates of beer was started at Akrotiri by the grateful car owners not the movers. One crate went to the MT fitter who prepped the car and the other was shared between the Booking Centre and the boys who loaded it. The practice no longer exists as it could be misconstrued as a bribe. I cannot imagine why a 43K Airman Aircrew would begrudge this. Sadly approx 5% of all cars arriving back at Brize or Lye have been damaged by someone standing on the roof to take a fatigue reading, sliding their bags over the bonnet or leaving their in-flight rubbish inside.

C17 - another good topic. You may recall that in the beginning the movers attending the course at Altus AFB were also going to complete the flying phase until professional jealousy intervened. It wasn't a case of them not being able but of future implications....

Still thinks there are good and bad on both sides out there. Most of the moaners seemed to be Masters apart from Tac Queen God Bless Her.....

[Moose Loadie]

Once again it seems that rumour has somehow clouded the truth regarding the movers role on the C-17. It is true that in the early days of the project it was planned to have 6 "super movers " on the C-17 Sqn as well as 6 stewards for larger pax loads. It was then realised that 6 loadies could actually fill both sets of shoes so the Sqn was given 6 more loadies instead. No professional jealousy just common sense.

Again it is true that four movers did attend Altus AFB but were never to my knowledge planned to complete the flying course just a short (3 week) load planning and loading course. Two were from JATE and the other two set up the C-17 movs cell upon their return. Currently only two of the original four are involved with the C-17 and this will shortly go down to one. All training is now carried out by the Movs School and 99 Sqn.

C-17 Alm's and movers now work side by side to achieve a common goal. No loading operations may commence without a loadie present and completing a brief with the qualified C-17 movs supervisor (SNCO). I had my doubts about the system when first set up and it has not been without it's set backs but for the most part we now have a good working relationship. Instead of just slagging each other off when a problem arises we discuss it.

At the end of the day we are both here to stay, without the movs a 16hr crew duty day could be much longer if you have to build your own pallets and without the loadies the aircraft would never get off the ground....................

Maybe some of the other aircraft types and movs that seem to be complaining about who should do what could learn to compromise, it's not as hard as you might think.

For my first post I think that’s enough

[FFP]

Ah, like that is it Tac Queen !!

Next time it comes to giving out the imprest .. . . .;)

[ZH875]

I cannot remember the last time a Loadie bent a herc.

Equally, I cannot remember the last time a Muppet didn't bend a Herc.

Loadies get paid more, so they can buy more pies when the in flight pies have gone.

As to Muppets, Pay Peanuts, Get Monkeys.

I will bet my bottom dollar that a monkey could do the Muppets job, with less training and fewer accidents.

[Muppet Leader]

Well guys,
This all started off when I asked a simple question, some time ago, on the Freight Dogs forum, then got slagged off by a couple of people, who would purport to being of slightly above average intelligence, for asking this one question.
I was obviously incorrect to assume that people reading this forum were honest, forthright and decent, so I thought, “ok, lets start a new topic to see if we can’t get a little bit of inter-trade banter going to see what comes out of it”.

Well. It started out ok but then soon degenerated into a slagging match, with dare I say it most of the negative comments coming from the same genre that I first encountered.
I was hoping for something a little more intelligent, and with a little more humour.

One or two decent replies from the likes of DC8, C130, TAC Queen, Echo5,BEagle (thank you), but then one or two seem to let the side down a tad, and the plot now appears to have been lost.
:uhoh:

[FFP]

Sitting on the fence there ZH !!

For me, it's loadies.

[BEagle]

Movers, ALMs or whatever. Treat them civilly, find out what they can and can't do, will or won't do and the whole team benefits....

But that used to happen mostly 'down route' when they weren't subject to the constipating effect of the homeplate 'Ops' empire...

If you're going to have a pop at someone, look no further than the abysmally inefficient 'phone-answering' branch, IMHO:yuk: :yuk:

[Runaway Gun]

BEagle,

That's if they can be even bothered to answer the phone. These guys must live on the theory that "Every time you answer the work phone, another Elvis dies" :suspect:

[7HD]

Have to say, I used to be a muppet (and not a very good one at that). That said, the outfit I work happily for has loaders, trimmers, route planners, load planners, customs clearance agents, ramp sups, et al......and about 5 loadmasters for when no-one has the cert to close the doors.

.............gentlemen Loadmasters, you do the math. You are exponentially accelerating down a cul de sac.

Oh, and by the way, bad as I was I got a nice little job on the strength of it. Have a nice one!

[Grimweasel]

Movers.........chip on shoulder non aircrew idiots who think they are Combat troops with all the chest webbing and gear but no weapons!! Funny eh? But then there are Loadies who fall into the same category. What the hell? Lets all just do the job, get along and draw the pay,eh?

[PTC REMF]

As a neutral bystander and a potential WSOp (ALM), I find this all a little disconcerting, isn't it time to kiss and make up?

Do the other aircrew branches have the same sort of views towards their ground crew colleagues? (and vice versa):confused:

[JohnB]

Things went down hill when the MALM was disestablished and the ALM courses stopped at the Movements School. People had a better appreciation of what each could do.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Good grief :yuk:
Since my initial ventures in here I have stayed out for as long as posible, but I have read a whole plethora of insights as to the merits and shortcomings of both trades and felt I should add my 6'pennyworth.

Spent my first 15 years as a "techie" with a meteoric rise from LAC thro' to Sgt. Worked on fast,fixed and rotary at 1st,2nd and3rd line, done Europe and the emerald isles and nothing compares to what i do now :ok:

TMT and GST as both Cpl and Sgt did not in anyway prepare me for the hardship of AAITC, let alone the rigours of selection! We had guys who were "X" regiment, army and firemen, probably some of the most difficult trades, physicaly, to enter who all stated this was about as hard as it gets. The 7 weeks i spent at Finningly were, without doubt, the hardest 7 weeks of my 29 year RAF life so far.:ooh:

Follow this with proffesional training for rotary and fixed wing in company with the annual check upon check we endure and my utmost admiration goes out for anyone who gains a flying badge, in any discipline.:ok:

For those of you out there who doubt the sincerity of this post I emplore you to go seek the opinion of those other "x" tradesmen you know who have made the efort and ask them if they would sooner return to being being "scuffers", "stackers", "techies", "blunties" etc etc:yuk: and see if you can guess what the answer is:ok:

However seeing some of the vitriol on display here I can only assume that some of the posters, you can probably guess who you are, have either failed in their attempts to make the next step up or bowed to the ineviatble peer pressure that pervades the Great British mindset. Thank god TAC Queen and the young man on the current J course, to name but a few, had the courage to persue a dream, and long may it continue:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[StopStart]

I persued a dream once.

She was bloody livid.



I feel I've added nothing to this high brow debate.

Another successful evening's Ppruning then :)

Keep up the good work chaps http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mfight.gif

[Good Mickey]

Nice web site Stoppers!

Theres only one group of people I can think of that whinge more than Movers - the 'NAFIA' who are doing a wonderful job of preventing the J model from progressing and developing.

http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/Gif/bart-moon.gif

[BEagle]

Do I hear that there is a body of thought which advocates returning the Js to Lockheed Martin, acquiring more C-17s and keeping the refurbished Ks going until A400M and FSTA are here? Then standardising on C-17, A400M and FSTA...........??

Bull$hit, porcovolant sentiment, commonsense or just rumour control? Over to you....

[dc8loadie]

Hey just seen breaking news on sky news :
Geoff Hoon has resigned and is applying to be an RAF Loadmaster !!!!!!

grimweasel are you 47 AD perchance ??:p

[exmover]

Hi all.
Just a quick reply to moggie ....the reason that you had to get up early was airfield opening times ...not because the movers wanted to get to the beach, and im sure you know that movers dont dictate opening times.....
Cheers

[TAC Queen]

What is going on, I go on route for a couple of days and you have all gone mad.

FFP- Imprest what imprest. Not only do I not receive it because I mostly visit DZ/LZ’s. When I do go on route it’s to places were one is not entitled. (Or so the gear monkey told me, come to think of it he did seem very flush the other evening.)

Blaky875- I am shocked that you think I am a girl sorry woman, did you not do your equal opportunity course. (I thou rally enjoyed mine and whole heartily embrace the current climate of equality.)
I am shocked and utterly horrified that you had to bring sex into the matter. The Royal British Air Force does not have any sex. I mean people who have sex, sorry I mean people of sex. We are a sex LESS society (well in my house any way)
Do you imply sir that I have a woman’s purse?
I grant you that I do have saggy man breasts
And yes I have been told I walk a bit funny.

But please, I think this thread has run its course.
In the words of Mr B. This thread is like a broken pencil.

P.S. Here’s to all the be-atches out there, put the kettle on luv.
I’m off now to change my sex. I have the breast I just need the tears. :ouch:
FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT.

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell.

:ok:

[dc8loadie]

tac queen, you gave the game away with the dz/lz quote.
is yr sis still at the shiney airfield ?:confused:

[TAC Queen]

dc8loadie
what are you on.
and can i have some

:confused:

[c130 alm]

Tac Queen, DC8 is definately mistaken about your sister. Unless you are keeping her a secret from me!!

[6nandneutral]

We seem to have gone from Movers V loadies to Tac Queen's imaginary sister.:)

[TAC Queen]

C130 alm
I would of thought that a person of your age and experience in the trucking fleet would not degenerate this thread into one about my sister.:\
I am happy to tell you that as she does not play ANY musical instruments, their for she is not your type.:ok:

Should we start a new thread “Others peoples sisters”
Or we could start one about “other peoples fathers", but that would then exclude most of the fast jet pilots.:ouch:

Throw verbal hand grenade and run.

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell.
:O :p :O

[Logistics Loader]

I heard about this thread, so thought i'd take a peek.
My hands are up, i'm not Aircrew! so don't put me against the wall yet. I joined the Movs trade back in 1981, then in 82 volunteered for JHSU. Us Movers got a hard time from the Pongo's, "you crabs arent fit enough for this unit! How wrong they were. We regularly outran and proved our worth on the range too, by getting higher scores than them. The Loadies on rotary, sorry crewman, were more than grateful for us Movers being on the unit, we proved our worth to them too. In fact, (without dragging this reply to another slagging match) I may have saved a Chinook from disaster on a task i was on. The pilot brought the aircraft back, shut down and gave me a whole load of grief that his underslung load was grossly overweight, Sqn Ldr v SAC... I listened, then replied, suggest we take a closer look at the load then sir.. The load was correct.. no weights exceeded.. fault was with the aircraft, dodgy torque reading iwas told later. Most of the crewmen i knew some 20yrs ago are now on fixed wing and we still get on great together, they know me and what i can do, i know them and what they do, therfore we meet a happy medium to acheive a common goal. Get the frame airborne, on time!!! Over the years, I have heard sveral rumours/whispers about the trades of Movers/Loadies.. best one was putting Cpl movers on the Chinook to free up the 2nd crewman, due to shortages, this would have worked well. I believe movers were ramp riding in Lebanon and providing extra eyes as well as operating the chaff and flare for defence. A recent change on the flying front, putting Cpl stewards on C130's. Why?? extra "aircrew type" less pay, doing a 2nd ALM job in theory. Parting shot on LCRA though.. VC10 capt asked me once, where his Loadie was, is he stacking baggage in there, pointing to the rear hold..after picking meself off the hot tarmac, i said "Sir, after 3 tours at BZZ, tour in GUT, working in Italy on VC10's, i have never seen a Loadie stack bags in the hold of a VC10!! just my 2p's worth..
As for now, i'm busy driving artic's around the country putting up with "Middle Lane Moron's" and car drivers who think they can drive artics....!!!! same story, different toys...come on guys, learn to get along with each other!!!!

[Pig Clarke]

There's some lovely mud over here...


Reading the PPRUNE web site on Movers Vs Loadies really kind of sickened me. It brought me back to the bad times in the RAF that I’d mostly put in the back of my mind.
As I scrolled through the sanctimonious diatribes and the blatant verbal ‘looking down the nose’ of most Airmen Aircrew contributors, I know I made the right choice in leaving the RAF after ten years of being trodden on by aircrew officers and plastic Sgt Loadies.

It is a shame that teamwork still takes such a back burner in the RAF to individual posturing and one-upmanship which is so valued in the Military.
The RAF still operates on the British Empire principal that the lowest British subject is still superior to the native he has conquered.
In this case it’s the lofty loadie lording it over the poor mover who left school when he was 16 and is trying to serve his country the best way he can.
When the lofty loadie serves the meal to the Captain he in turn looks down his nose at Sgt Lofty, and so the never ending saga goes on.
The feudal society enshrined in the RAF.(And other British Military Arms)

Bravo. Fine principals indeed.

Some of you will say its just banter but those who have served any time in blue with SAC props will know that these prima-donnas really do act this badly.

I’ve been a civvy cop for sometime now and that is real teamwork.
The bosses all started in the job as Constables. We respect them for it.
Nobody thinks that they are any better than the new guy just starting his or her first day.
We all eat at the same table, there are no exclusive ‘messes’ and advice is freely given and problems solved with the help of others. Sounds almost idyllic eh? Compared to life in the RAF, it’s a totally different planet.

To those disillusioned with the status quo of everybody strutting over somebody, take heart, it’s not like that in the real world.

Remember the old song. Don’t buy a telly, don’t buy a car, save all your money and PVR.

I’ll stay in Canada (I won't tell you how much I earn and how much it buys in the Dominion, that would make me like you sad types.)

Chris (Pig ) Clarke

Burlington, Ontario

I can hear the sarcastic Lofties of the world stirring as I type......(yawn)

[prat100_2000]

moving slightly away from the subject but you guys seem to be the font of the knowledge that I need. I recently enquired at my RAF careers office about joining as NCO Aircrew (Airloadmaster) and the recruiting officer was selling it to me big time. My situation is I'm 30 and looking to change careers. I have a good job at moment in the media industry but it isn't giving me the opportunities that the R.A.F could. I come from an R.A.F background so am well aware of the life to expect. When I spoke to my brother about it who is a senior engineering officer he took the line that at 30 if I was selected the the youngsters would be selected ahead of me for the better jobs and I would find it harder to progress. He is my brother and is obviously biased so I need your opinion. My main questions are 30, too old? If selected, within reason what rank could I get to? Could I go for a commission? What's the job like now?

Thanks for your help

[TAC Queen]

I can’t believe they have let a former Senior Aircraftsman write on this forum. The horror is their no rule about the lower classes being able to write never mind type.
What is the world coming to, this was never allowed when I was a SAC.
Oh crap!

Prat100_2000
You will receive a hole host or replies ranging from good to bad, my only advise, if its of any use to you as one that has climbed the society ladder to the dizzy height of ALM is go for it.

I am working class and so I look up to them
I am middle class and so I look down on him (working class) and look up to him
I am upper class I look down on both of them
I am your loadmaster sit down and shut the :mad: up.

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell.

[LunchMonitor]

ALMS Ladies, Gentlemen and movers,

I would like to point out that I as a loadmaster of some 15 years experience generally get on well with movers. In fact the last team I went away with were great, keen, helpful, not travelling as pax for the five days between onloads and offloads, but tidying up doing the crew baggage and other things to help me and make the trip as pleasant as possible for everyone, crew and pax included.(That should get them in trouble with their union.) When it came to the meat of the task for them, it was done quickly and professionally. (Thanks Al)

As a trade they do have some lazy bolshy and narrow minded twits amongst them. Most of which are in positions of power and will cover up any misdemeanours or mistakes made on their shift under the misguided belief that it is protecting the trade and their backsides!, whereas it really is just undermining any trust people could have in them. This does keep ALMs in a job catching these little oversights though.

The vast majority of ALMs are still keen and very professional (They wouldnt have gone through all the cr@p alluded to by ABIW if they were'nt), but we too have one or maybe two bolshy and lazy ALMs amongst us (I used to be a route checker I know!).

I personally however at the end of the day when all is said and done would rather have my aircraft loaded by 47 AD.

Oh, and all those movers who think they can do my job are invited to attend the NCA roadshow that is doing the rounds over the next few weeks and apply.

Cheers

[Rude C'man]

Yes please do attend the NCA Roadshow, as Kinloss is desperate for siggy's. 'Cos if you all think your gonna get an ALM slot mmmmmm well we will see( Am i being synical again?... sorry). Movers - supply - ALM's what ever, just be happy, professional and get on with it !

PS
JHSU -Some of the most professional chaps and ladies I've ever worked with. 47AD I can't comment sorry!

any spelling mistakes are cos i can't be arsed to spill chock

Remember ... you have to be good ... to be gash....!!!!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Can anyone smell bacon:mad:

Dear Mr Clarke how I giggled at your post. Rather ironic that you are visiting and commenting on a website dedicated to the ones you most despise :yuk:

"As I scrolled through the sanctimonious diatribes and the blatant verbal ‘looking down the nose’ of most Airmen Aircrew contributors, I know I made the right choice in leaving the RAF after ten years of being trodden on by aircrew officers and plastic Sgt Loadies."

I guess from this that you had checked out the criteria for selection and having realised your inadequacies decided to
" select teddy in cot" and quit:O

"Some of you will say its just banter but those who have served any time in blue with SAC props will know that these prima-donnas really do act this badly"

15 years spent in blue from LAC to SGT, including JT, before making the right move so i think I am pretty qualified in telling you that you are wrong:yuk:

We may not be perfect but as Zee said "we are the best of the best"...............a club you seem to have failed to join.

Hope Canada is great as we are missing you already:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ZH875]

For Pig Clarke.

If officers liked airmen, if ALMs liked Movers, if SNCO's liked troops, if airmen liked officers and if movers liked ALMs etc etc, what a boring place the RAF would be.

We are the Best, because we work as a team, we get the job done, and we dont give a ***** what anyone thinks about anyone else.

Obviously banter is fun, it is meant to be, it is not cruel, and it is not meant to be offensive in this wonderfully politically correct world we now live in.

Thankfully you saw the error of your ways and fu**ed off to Canada to live with the bl**dy Frogs. Best place for you.

Thankfully we also have the Army and the Navy to take the p1$$ out of as well. (I am too scared to take on the Royal Marines).

[Beeayeate]

It's all very amusing this movers/loadies thing, very amusing. Especially so when everyone who has been in the mob for more than ten minutes realises that riggers are the top of the food-chain.

Have GS, will rule.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :hmm:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear B,
Are you suggesting that the only qualification for "top food chain" status is the undenied ability to batter the sh@t out of anything with a "ball pein" till it's either fixed or fuc@ed:E

Do be brief young man avionics,whilst not asscocited with the rest of you trade group 1 heavie handed bast@rds is definately the way ahead................at least they think logically, probably using the half split method blah blah unlike riggers and sumpies whose only training appears to be in the procussion adjustment department:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

Armourers' thumbs and avionics - a heady mix. But not as much fun as watching some grunt REME blacksmith trying to fix a photocopier. "..'it it wiv a bigger 'ammer" is not normally an approved maintenance technique.

Would anything in the RAF still work without black bodge tape and speed tape holding it together?

[Beeayeate]

ABI Wilts penned. . .

"Are you suggesting that the only qualification for "top food chain" status is the undenied ability to batter the sh@t out of anything with a "ball pein" till it's either fixed or fuc@ed"

Well of course I am, thought that was obvious. :E Bit more technical than you make out though - a good rigger (gods bless 'im) wields a precision GS screwdriver and 2BA tap as well. But it is interesting that you should not only know, but be able to spell a rigger's main weapon of mass destruction. Are you a "closet" rigger? Do you aspire to greater things? Can you "fixit" with black tape?

. . . and went on . . .

" . . .avionics,whilst not asscocited with the rest of you trade group 1 heavie handed bast@rds is definately the way ahead"

But only if you've got a servicable aluminium tube to carry it all in! Otherwise it's just a bunch of not very trendy "hi-fi" looking boxes and walkman lookalikes laid out on the pan.

then finished with . . .

". . . unlike riggers and sumpies whose only training appears to be in the procussion adjustment department"

Nah, we are (or were) trained to look kindly on those lower down the food-chain - such as fairies, siggies, movers and the like. Bless 'em, they're so cute ain't they? :E

:ok: :ok:

[Shagster]

It's quite obvious to me, Air Despatchers do both jobs................don't they??:hmm:

[TAC Queen]

Here we go again!

[FFP]

Rigger, fairy , sooty, etc etc blah blah blah. Whatever.

No Stick, no vote.

Where's that irrelevant button . . . . . .. . . ?

BUZZZZZZZ ! ;)

[ZH875]

FFP, remove your blinkers and look again at the title and scope of this forum.


"Military Aircrew
A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here"

As to the stick, just imagine that it is that it is just a substitute for a male appendage and hold it as such. But I bet thats what you do anyway.....

The automatic pilot was invented circa 1943, the automatic groundcrew has yet to be invented.

Just remember who services your kite. :mad:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Mk5,

Whilst I appreciate your sentiment our royal friend is perfectly correct in his "no stick no vote" statement. From the very top of the Airforce tree all their lord ships have at least one wing, mainly two therefore..............................blah blah:ok:

al spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Blakey875]

875

I thought this thread was dying but the likes of you and ABIW have poked the embers again. What part of 'NOT ALL MOVERS WANT TO BECOME LOADMASTERS' do you not understand? It also amuses me that when you go for selection/conversion you are encouraged to say that you want to improve yourself, have higher aspirations etc and mustn't mention money but throughout this thread that's all you lot do!

"You don't recollect a Loadie ever bending a Herc..." Well the tallest Loadie on the J's managed to reshape all the roller last year by crushing them using the ramp. You've obviously forgotten the brave Loadie who left the power set attached at Akrotiri and when the crunch came bravely abandoned the aircraft leaving the pax inside. At least two of your intrepid brethren have broken their legs when the winch cable snapped due to their incompetent handling. More than one stowage bin has been re-shapen by the ADS arms when the ramp was lowered before a visual check. Seem to remember that more than once you guys have lowered the ramp with a bridged vehicle still nailed to the floor, need I go on?

You're probably right about Air Despatch loading aircraft but they've never mastered the art of taking it back off....

The comment about the leaders is annoying as well. You don't like the WOs, well that's understandable becuase they bite back and won't entertain mischief. The officers is a different story as none of them are proper movers although they seem to know it all within weeks! Imagine how the movers feel when they see comments about the 'dizzy blond' at Akrotiri or the 'snotty' Fg Off at Asi - they won't argue with you 'cos it's true.

[FFP]

Very true Zulu Hotel . . . . . . .

Even better though, look further at the title of this thread. Movers Vs Loadies. So, pray tell, what the f@*k are riggers and the like coming on here giving it "Top of the Food" chain etc.

Just need to be put back in their place I reckon :E

[Beeayeate]

FFP typed. . .

"So, pray tell, what the f@*k are riggers and the like coming on here giving it "Top of the Food" chain etc."

'cos it's true, ask any rigger! :E

Anyway, seems to me we were hearing these arguments back in the 60s and 70s - especially to/from the Belfast blokes. Nothing's changed has it? Except the aircraft. Hang on, there's still Hercs about isn't there? So, it's just the Belfs that are missing. :bored:

Recall the time on Gan that this same basic argument caused a little "local trouble" on the island between the movers and a visiting crew. Took a few of the SASFlt blokes to settle it down, as it was getting too noisy and disturbing our renditions of Zulu Warrior - but that's another story.

Never mind, it'll probably still be going in another 30 years or so. Will it ever get sorted?

Remember, the whole point of the RAF, the whole point, is to put a bomb-aimer over an enemy target in times of conflict. Everybody else is just there to support this action, everybody. :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Bee,
Sorry for getting excited but my 14 years as a single channel avionics chap, Nav Inst followed by Flt Sys all came floding back............you trade group 1 tw@t:ok:.only joking fella

Mk5,

You really need to get out a bit more fella and see a bit more of life otherwise you will find yourself in an early grave. Not sure what trade you are but if all you can come up with are the couple of "slag points" in your last post pray to the heavans above the Pilots, nav's, Eng's and Loadies who read these sheets dont start to fire from the hip...................... got a feeling it wasn't last year or the tall bloke actually............as I believe it was me:suspect:

Bee

"Remember, the whole point of the RAF, the whole point, is to put a bomb-aimer over an enemy target in times of conflict. Everybody else is just there to support this action, everybody"

In my 29 year experiance, and it's just my humble opinion, only those, in the main, entitled to wear dark blue shirts to work come under the heading "support" although a lot of those are moving with the wind of change.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Grimweasel]

Always_broken_etc

"Remember, the whole point of the RAF, the whole point, is to put a bomb-aimer over an enemy target in times of conflict. Everybody else is just there to support this action, everybody"

Maybe back in the 80's but I'm sure that a lot on here would beg to differ. What with the modern systems available to the RAF today I'd say that only about 20% of Bomb-aimers over the TGT were used. The RAF now relies heavlly on pre-programmed weapons that search out their target automonosly. Take Storm Shadow and Brimstone for eg. I'm sure that the SH boys would argue that they had a massive part to play in the RAF other than bombs over target?
Take the Logistical fleet too. They are there to provide a service to the 3 services not just the RAF. So I would beg that whole point bit that you pertain too was a little too short sighted, what?

And no 875, I don't recall an air dispatcher ever pranging an aircraft. Far too professional for any of that stuff. As for taking it back off again I think that they are experts at that too? Must be something to do with all that money the army pays!! (Cheers higher rate!!)

Retorts expected and greatly receieved.....

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Apologies Grim..........that will teach me to cut and paste:8 but I still maintain that our main support comes from those in dark blue shirts.............others, again it's my humble opinion, merely set up hoops for us to jump thro' in order to justify their own existance.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ZH875]

FFP, I am not an aircrew member, I passed the exams and am a Trade Group 2 professional (now awaiting crass comments from seat to stick interface units).

Furthermore FFP, I believe it is the honorable riggers who have to fix what the Loadies and muppets :mad: bend, so why shouldn't they have a say on this forum.

ABIW, I be a Mk4.

Bee, "Everybody else is just there to support...." thats the best comment on the whole forum.

[FFP]

If they want to start a "Movers VS Loadies But What About the Riggers "thread, go ahead. It's their right as a "back room boys " (as we're all quoting PPrune rules and eligibility ;) )

All I`m saying is where does it stop? Maybe every branch in the RAF, Army and Navy of all nations would like to post and say they are the best where Movers and loadies are concerned !

Of course riggers are going to be the best in their opinion! And if they were seat to stick interface units I'm sure they would be the best too !!

If I burst in on a Rigger Vs Fairy thread and said "Of course Pilots are top of the food chain ! " I'm sure they too would reach for the old irrelevant button !

Tounge in cheek comment to show their loyalty to the trade and liven up the thread ? Course it was ! As were my comments :ok:

No matter what you say the RAF is run by pilots and always will be. Whether it should be or not is a different matter as Pilot does not equal Manager at all.

So, in summary . . . . . . . . . Loadies :p

[Beeayeate]

ABI Wilts
"Sorry for getting excited but my 14 years as a single channel avionics chap, Nav Inst followed by Flt Sys all came floding back............you trade group 1 tw@t"

OK, good one. :ok:

Grim
The ". . . whole point. . ." bit was from me, not Wilts. As for your interpretation, very logical, very "now". But the thrust of the gist concening the nub of my statement was that no matter what way you cut it, the whole point of the RAF is to drop bombs, kill people and break their stuff. Matters not how it's done or who does it, the ultimate purpose is clear. Used to be a bombadier, now it's a bloke with a degree and techy 'tronics kit - the purpose, mission and result is the same now as it has always been. And it's the job of everybody in the RAF to get him into a postion so he can do his stuff. :ok:

Wlits
Sorry, don't get the "dark blue shirts" bit. :confused: After my time?

FFP
"If I burst in on a Rigger Vs Fairy thread and said "Of course Pilots are top of the food chain ! " I'm sure they too would reach for the old irrelevant button!"

Doubt it, but you may get bantered to h&ll and back though and have to survive on brickdust and visitor's biscuits for a week. :E

But you're right, other trades, especially riggers, have no business butting in on a movers v loadies cat fight - and neither should, I would suggest, zobbits (seat to stick interface units or self-loading ballast).

As for the mob being run by pilots! Well, it shows old chap, it shows. :E

875
Thanks. :ok:

Anyway, as it was so it still is. This rigger (ex-) is now handing back the cat-fight to those who want to continue with it. Besides, the nurse is coming round in a minute, an' she's a looker tonight, so I've got to hide my Talisker. :ok: :ok:

[ZH875]

FFP, another wonderfully true statement "No matter what you say the RAF is run by pilots and always will be. Whether it should be or not is a different matter as Pilot does not equal Manager at all."

The sooner Engineers can specify what an aircraft is and should be, then maybe things like C130J, Typhoon and Merlin may have been bought with proper specifications and spares etc. :ok:

[FFP]

I agree. We've gone some way towards it with Typhoon by using aircrew in the design stage. Not sure what extent gingers were involved . . . . . . . . .

But anyway, now I'm hijacking this thread !! Back to Loadies Vs Movers (without rigger scum :ok: )

[Muppet Leader]

Sorry but I’ve got to come back in after seeing the post by Beeayeate on page seven,
Then followed by Grimweasel.

Remember, the whole point of the RAF, the whole point, is to put a bomb-aimer over an enemy target in times of conflict. Everybody else is just there to support this action, everybody.

In the 1980s, this was NOT the point at all. Never was.

With the height of the cold war looming on the horizon, and the massed Russian hordes poised on the East German border, the whole point of the RAF in the UK was to rapidly re-supply the NATO troops based in Europe.

Remember the TACEVALs and MINEVALS, yes you went through the motions of gate guard, roving patrols, air raids and NBC drills, but the main objective was to re-supply the forward troops with ammunition.
This entailed every able bodied mover building pallets of ammunition on the Calne Strip – and I mean all of them. Hour after hour, no meal breaks down at the mess, hot lox were brought for them, a quick scoff, and then back to another pallet.




Since ABIW has had a dig, while I’m on I might as well jump to the defence of PIG. Yes he has now left these sunny shores, but a man of higher integrity I have yet to meet.
I seem to recall a bravery award for tackling a man armed with a machine gun, whilst on the beat in Manchester.
And as for “selecting teddy in cot” and quitting, I think I would say without hesitation, that if PIG had a teddy, it would have been a Grizzly!


I’m off now to don respirator and await the forthcoming barrage.
Remember, the whole pont of the RAF, the whole point, is to put a bomb-aimer over an enemy target in times of conflict. Everybody else is just there to support this action, everybody.

Don't forget.
:sad: :sad: :E

[Beeayeate]

Wasn't going to add to this thread, but ML wrote some very narrow perspective stuff. :*

ML

"Remember the TACEVALs and MINEVALS, yes you went through the motions of gate guard, roving patrols, air raids and NBC drills, . . ."

Yes, I do remember the "mini-wars"- not at Calne though, but in Germany, summer and winter, with one of the strike squadrons. If ". . .the main objective was to re-supply the forward troops with ammunition" just what do you think ours, and other's, Canberras were doing standing QRA loaded with nukes? Waiting to protect ammuntion shipments? I don't think so. What was the purpose of the RAF's V force? Air drops of .303 and field rations?

And then you go on to write. . .

"This entailed every able bodied mover building pallets of ammunition on the Calne Strip – and I mean all of them. Hour after hour, no meal breaks down at the mess, hot lox were brought for them, a quick scoff, and then back to another pallet."

Oh dear, so you had to leave your warm crewroom for a while? What do you think the "customer facing" pilots, navs, riggers, leccys, sootys, faireys, et al were actually doing at the business end then? Especially the Canberra aircrews who realised they probably wouldn't be coming back! Dedicated blokes one and all. And if they did get back, how would you feel if you had to wonder if you'd have anywhere to come back to!

Gawds, this is not banter. :mad:

Out.

[Muppet Leader]

Beeayeate,
Yes I’ll give you that one.

However, the guys you mention were standing QRA 24/7. This was nothing new.
The whole point of the exercises in the UK, shipping conventional ordinance, were to give the politicians time to try to resolve their political differences, to ensure that you didn’t have to microwave Europe.

Notwithstanding the obvious bravery of the Canberra crews (both air and ground), this applied just as much to the 130 crews.
The Hercs were to fly from the UK out to RAFG to deposit their loads of munitions, and if the airfields had been taken out, the engineers would blow bridges and so forth, and the aircraft would use the autobahns as forward emergency strips.
This would have taken place before the V force was given the “GO”.

I seem to remember, and I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, some statistic that the scribblies had worked out, that the Hercs would survive an average of 1.4 missions, between the UK and Germany.

I deference to Beeayeate, this is after all a thread for movers and loadies to verbally beat the sierra hotel one tango out of each other.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

ML,

He may be big, brave and full of integrity but anyone reading his post will see his rather nasty and spiteful comments as nothing more than that. The suggestion that unless you were once an SAC you should not be in a position of responsibilty is, not only ludicrous, but made out of of pure jealousy:yuk:

As someone who served in RAFG in the 80's, and despite being a techie my war role was to help guard 31 Sqn Jag's, I would like to take you to task on a couple of your suppositions:mad:

"Remember, the whole point of the RAF, the whole point, is to put a bomb-aimer over an enemy target in times of conflict. Everybody else is just there to support this action, everybody.

In the 1980s, this was NOT the point at all. Never was."

WHAT :mad:

Every Tac/Min/Maxeval I did during my time, 81 - 84 was for the purpose of generating as many servicable aircraft in as short a space of time in order to hang a bucket of sunshine on them for the one way trip east:yuk: we were regularly live armed when the site went hot and the di staff were close in attendance as the quicker the upload the better the score and the less time spent "masked up"!!!

If you honestly believe a shed load of Albert delivered goods was going to stop the Soviet hordes driving west then.....................good grief:sad:

What kept the status quo was not the threat of a conventional confrontation as we would have be "rubber dick fu@ked oh yeah" by Ivan! It was the threat of a massive nuclear retaliation that kept them at bay.

So as Bee alluded whatever hardships you endured here on the Calne strip pale into insignificance for those who were going to man the jets for the outbound leg..........only and for those left behind in RAFG as the retalitory airbusts or a whole host of T72's etc were coming our way...........sobering thought at the time as I recall :sad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Didntdoit]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Why can't we just all get along? Speaking as a relatively recent ex-Movs qualified duvet consultant, I gotta take issue with some of you on the cold war, et all. The reason that we won the Cold War, was not, IMHO, solely because we could hang buckets of sunshine on pointy jets in short order and not solely because we shifted planeloads of kit faster than they were going out of fashion at Asda.

It was because, overall, we, and our bigger brother(s), were able to present a credible deterrent in the form of a strong defence policy and more than competent armed forces, at all levels, in all disciplines. At least, we were able to present that front - the reality may have been different although our bigger brother certainly spent the enemy into submission.

All this petty harping on about how hard/valuable/essential/important of biblical proportions certain roles and elements are misses the point and most probably only reinforces the uninformed opinion that non-union members from either trade have. Rant off - back to thread.

I have been fortunate enough to work with some diamond movers, without whom I could never have achieved tasks. I have also worked in cooperation with some great Loadies, and their crews, who helped me to help them. On the other hand, in both camps, I have encountered a small number who were a disgrace to the uniform, let alone their respective union. The same could be said about most trades and branches in the RAF. What am I trying to say that others have perhaps already said better?

Divide and Conquer

[Muppet Leader]

This is great.

Come on, let's have loads more "willies out on the table"
and more people joining the "mines bigger than yours" game.:ok:

[Echo 5]

Blakey 875

" The officers is a different story as none of them are proper Movers although they seem to know it all within weeks ".

This sounds very familiar. Looks like the current generation of Movers have to put up with the same sort of cr@p that we did all those years ago.

I wonder if it is those individuals that TAC Queen was referring to that " always blame the other shift "?

[Didntdoit]

Echo 5
Read this bit of my post again:

Speaking as a relatively recent ex-Movs qualified duvet consultant

Perhaps a little too subtle for you, but not all zobs think they know the Movs trade!:ok:

[PPRuNeUser0172]

My dicks bigger than your dick...................

what a pointless pissing contest.


"No Stick, No Vote"

[Didntdoit]

Snachez (sic)

Box get in back your. The title of the thread is self-explanatory, so you don't even have to look at it if the subject doth not please thou.

In the meantime....

[Echo 5]

Didntdoit,

" Not all Zobs think they know the Movs trade."

I accept what you say but it is a fact of life that it is the few bad experiences that tend to turn into long lasting bad impressions.

[PPRuNeUser0172]

DontDoit

My comments merely came from reading what appeared to be an interesting topic, particularly as I didn't know a great deal about either branch, but as ever the whole thread just appeared to descend into a pissing contest.

Merely expressing an opinion old chap....obviously struck a chord though.


DS

[Didntdoit]

DS

No chord struck, especially as I wasn't urinating in public. Anyway, "pointless" does not appear to indicate enjoyment. Nice try.;)

E5

Tarring. Brush? As you said, a few, not all. If the reverse were applied......?

Nuff-said.

[force_ale]

Heard a rumour that the unskilled job of moving boxes and driving M.T. into Hercs is being considered to go into the higher pay band while there are still some skilled trades in the low pay bracket(squippers ect.):confused:

[Grimweasel]

Unluckily for the other trades the 'Muppets' have an officership that extends right up in terms of the airship ranks. God knows why but they infect the RAF like ravenous LICE. Until the other trades are as well represented as the muppets then higher trade bands for 'em will be the norm!!
And for what? Check your bags sir? Did you pack them yourself? Reply" Oh yes, like I am the governor on India in the colonial days. Patek packs my bags for me??!!!" Of course I packed them myself you feckwit!
Lash this box here loadie? errr, yes.
Well worth higher rate...........not!

[JohnB]

Grim - think you will find that the senior Supply officer who is Movements qualified is an Air Cdre. Yes right up there with all the multi stared Engineers.

As for higher pay band trades...the skilled trades of Egg flipping are on a par with RAF Regt Cpls/Sgt and engineers.

[country calls]

Do not get me started on the subject of paybands as to my eternal disgust a Sgt Chef is paid more than a Sgt Aircraft Technician is. The supposed reason? Sgt Chefs are sent away on dets a lot more. well the way I see it is they will reach high band LSSA quicker and be paid for when they are away. They also will hit the 280 /380 day bonuses quicker. Oh and they wont have to do aircraft control system independants, which keep our little pink bodies from dropping out of the sky and potentially killing hundreds!!

Oh and while I am on my soapbox are bandsmen still being paid overtime for playing at mess functions using RAF instruments, music, uniforms???

Movers v loadys? I can honestly say it is rare for a mover to get a round of teas in when visiting the galley, where most loadies seem to try and float your back teeth in the stuff!

[JohnB]

According to http://www.rafcom.co.uk/pay_allowances/pay/banding/tg_15.cfm

All Sgts in TG 1,2, 3and 5 are paid the Higher rate of pay the same as Sgt Chefs. Not sure where you got your figures from Country but....:*

[Mr C Hinecap]

:ugh:

Grim. As a member of the smallest single branch in the RAF (SUPPLY), I can see you have a few unresolved issues with those of my branch that have the Movements annotation (self included).

I suggest you step from the hallowed flight deck every now and then and get some idea of what those in the Branch and, more importantly Trade do - some of it is actually away from the aircraft! Either that, or stay up there and drink yer tea!

Glad someone else pointed out that Air Cdre is the top Supply rank. Of course, all flight deck crew are blessed with wit, charm and the ability to never have a bad day/night/morning after/landing etc.

Usual advice from this end - someone give Grim a hug - think he needs it.

[Oggin Aviator]

Went on a det once. Went to Holland. Too many aircrew on the Sqn to fly in the helos across so the nice chaps from the light blue agreed to take the extra aircrew and the maintainers there in an Albert. Albert arrives at home base. Mover Corporal doing the check in.

Mover "Sir, you cant take that knife with you"

Me "Why not ?"

Mover "Dangerous Cargo sir"

Me "Its my aircrew knife. I am aircrew. I am on a duty flight out to a period of detached duty. You have very kindly provided us with an aircraft to get us there so I've got my flying suit on. Why cant I wear my knife, part of my survival equipment etc etc"

(plus the old ones were only ever useful at peeling oranges, nothing else!)

Mover "Dangerous cargo sir, etc etc"

Do they just hate aircrew/Officers/Navy chaps or are they just a bunch of power seeking losers aimed to make your life hell?

Just a question.

Oggin

As a postscript, at end of det I self financed trip to different part of the country to attend own offspring's christening. I flew out of Schipol airport with my aircrew knife in my hand luggage - declared it (and my military ID) to the Dutch authorities who couldnt have been more helpful. No snags at all.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Aircrew knives / Movers. Now THAT is a new topic.

When you have to enforce regs that are from above - way above the pay band of a Cpl Mover - you do it. Do you think that regulation was made up by that Cpl? Did it make his life easier to do that? No it bl00dy didn't! Were you a passenger on that flight? Yes. Do passengers need to carry knives? No.
You were a bl00dy passenger, not operating crew.

I felt a complete tw0nker when my guys were taking Gerbers, Leathermen etc off people to fly in a VC-10, but it was not difficult. I am capable of free thought, but there are so many regs for travel in aircraft (PAX and freight) that it is best to follow them fairly well (don't want to upset the captain). You may not care if said Cpl ends up in prison, but I do.

Think you'll find things are a little more chilled these days. I never agreed with giving aircrew knives - they'll just get bored and cut themselves. :rolleyes: And relax.

[Didntdoit]

Mr C - and you haven't even mentioned LSJs!

As we have seen in the papers this week, it is very, very easy to bleat about rules just because someone enforces them. :{

[BEagle]

Jawohl, Herr Obersturmbahnfuehrer! Zu befehl! Orders from above - zees ve must obey vizout kvestion....

Don't be an utter ar$e. Aircrew flying clothing for those who don't wear external turning trousers ('speed jeans' in current yoofspeak) includes a survival knife in a sheath; this is restrained with a cord tell-tale. Leave it alone - and tell your spotty little idiots to understand that aircrew are unilkely ever to hijack the aeroplane in which they're travelling.

W@nker - no stick, no vote. "The role of the RAF is to fly and to fight. The role of those who don't is to SUPPORT those who do"- not to irritate them with utterly banal and totally irrelevant rules. Never lose sight of that!

[JohnB]

Remember a case in 1991 when an ALM refused to take some dangerous air cargo back to the UK because (as the regulations said) "Dangerous Air Crago" was not written in RED ink. Everything else was OK apart from that. She was told that the words were not written in the required colour because the photocopier was black and white. This still did not make her see sense and it was only after the intervention of a Sqn Ldr ALM that she saw reason and took the load.

Petty rules or flight safety issues...who will complain the most when a "passenger" uses their knife during the flight. Not the mover or RAFP ATSy -we will be safe on the ground. So its OK for others to bend or break the rules because they dont really apply to you.

On another topic from a previous moan about Movers and Akrotiri - The airfield opening hours are changing in a couple of days - back to their holiday camp hours. So lots more very early departures from the UK.

Whose decision was this? - not the Movers as they are still manned for 24 hours opening.

[Didntdoit]

BEagle

I cannot recall any of your posts that have given me a WTF moment, but I think, respectfully, that you miss a point.:sad:

The modern military, whilst fairly tolerant on a lot of issues, is one where you ignore rules on your own shout and the lower you are in the chain, the more stuff comes down and sticks. It's not about the Nuremberg principle; its about the fact that the firm tends not to enjoy it, or support it, when people do what they want and there ain’t half a lot of finger pointing when it goes Pete Tong.

And before you start, I know that most in uniform have, at one time or another, fractured the odd reg. Which can be seen as healthy use of initiative, etc. However, the 11th commandment always applies. I have never seen the need for the knife/LSJ ruling myself and tended to have a problem justifying it. However, I am sure that there is the odd snippet from the 318 that you had issues with.

Sure, some of the JNCOs, SACs, Ground Hostees, ATSy (then again, maybe not ATSy :suspect: ) may have given the impression that they enjoyed every aspect of their time on pax check-in. In my experience however, especially on a base where you shared the life with 4-sqns worth of electric flick knife guys, the guys on the ground did not see a lot of sense in it and every once in a while, had to exercise common. Which as you know, can :ouch:

ps - JohnB - The same who I met outside Patrons at RIAT?

[JohnB]

Didnt - not me - haven't been near RIAT since 1988.

[Didntdoit]

OK - Brüggen around 97?

[Oggin Aviator]

Mr C Hinecap

I have to agree with BEagle.
Its attitudes like yours that give the Movers the bad name they have. A bit of common sense now and again would work wonders.
Do you really think a Commissioned Aircrew Officer on a duty trip is going to use his aircrew knife (personally issued to him/her by the MOD) to threaten the crew? Yes of course they are (....not!)
Its quite true that the Junior Rank individual will do what he/she is told. Therefore they need some decent leadership at the SNCO and Officer level. Quite obviously lacking in my limited experience.

Oggin

p.s. Just to get you really going I think RAF Loadies and RN Aircrewmen are awesome dudes - keep up the good work
:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oggin,

Your last post hits the nail on the head there fella:ok: These banal rules, that are oft quoted as a defence by those so short sighted, fail to take stock of the big picture:sad:

We have a system that is based on it's civvie equivalent and bears absolutely no relevance to what we in the militarty get up to on a day to day basis. We emplane, on the whole, military people who are going about there miltary business around the world. They are simply carrying items they would normally utilise in their day to day environment and bearing in mind we, despite the ever increasing "touchy feely EO" service we live in, do not currently employ muslim fundamentalists or members of any other such terror groups I fail to see what the problem is.

No doubt some one from the mover fraternity will now tell us that this excellant rule is in place to stop a passenger running amok and damaging the aircraft or others on board:mad: b@@l@cks:ok:

Firstly when did that last happen.:p

Secondly there are enough other items in the back of our AT fleet, chains - tensioners - fire extinguishers - DAC..............f@ck me Albert has two fire axes completly exposed to anyone who wishes to wield one in anger so the danger posed by a gerber or aircrew knife pales into complete insignificance.

I would suggest that if Mr C and the like really thought this was a rule that could be dispensed with, then bearing the amount of times the JSP 335 is changed to make it easier for movers to load all and sundry aboard our AT fleet, they would get it changed.

However ask yourself why they dont..................... :O

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[TAC Queen]

Not to get dragged back in to this hot potato, BUT

No.1
I have been asked to remove my aircrew knife so it can be handed to the ALM
I pointed out that I was the ALM
I was then told I’ll still have to remove it.
I asked what the RAFP CPL was going to do with it
His reply was put it in a bag with all the others and hand it to the ALM
At this point I walked away laughing.

No2
Departing a operational airfield somewhere east of UK.
I was handed a back full of leathermans and such from the our brothers in green (and sisters) and then told those 15 pax are carrying their side arms as they are not part of HM Forces
????????????

Those on high have laid down the rules. It is not the movers or the ATSY’s fault; they just have to implement those rules.
Didn’t some of the September 11 terrorists look western? Do you simply say its ok mate you look trustworthy to me and let them board. Yes there are items that can be used as weapons down the back of Albert but then what weapons did they use for the September 11 attacks?
All you very important people who feel you really need your blunt aircrew knife when you fly simply ask the ALM. I would appreciate it as I normally forget to hand them off anyway.
Just a bit of thought for others and the job they are trying to do, isn’t that what you want from people? It doesn’t always make sense to you or them but we are in the military and those are the rules.
Yes the RAF is in the military MATE!!!!

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell.

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Grimweasel:

'Check your bags sir? Did you pack them yourself? Reply" Oh yes, like I am the governor on India in the colonial days. Patek packs my bags for me??!!!" Of course I packed them myself you feckwit!'

Is this what you say every time you check your bags in and fly on a civilian airline? No, you just stay quiet because you can't hide behind your rank. The civvies can have regulations but the movers/ATSy can't? You a**e.................

[Mr C Hinecap]

AAArrgghhhhh! For those I am about to insult, be insulted!

The following of Regulations is kind of what the military does. Yes - there is some room for common sense (if you'd ever met me, you'd know it is all I have - no education to speak of!).

If my guys had missed a Leatherman/knife etc, it was usually the operating crew that went harpic and roared at us! Not so usual on the Fat Albert & C-17 (worship its form and function in awe) but more usual on the 10 & Tri*. ATSY Is supposed to be the RAFP's world - if they don't show, the Movers have to do their best and may apply the regs wrongly. Tough.

Those who slag the 'following orders' line. Not the Nuremberg Trials here - not a prison camp - not slotting POWs. Military. That means someone higher up the tree can make rules, get them written down and MAKE others follow them. Those not or no longer in the military - please express yourself to your management in a way I cannot. Better? Good.

As a lowly JO it is waaaay over my pay band and if you think petitioning someone on the AFB means you can carry your knife, please do it.

None of us likes all the rules, but we like enough of them to still be here.

And yes - most ALMs do a great job - just like most people in most branches and trades.

I love you all. :bored:

[Didntdoit]

Oggin

In response to your question about pax on duty trips never in a million years using thier knives.

I guss then, that it would be fair to say that never in a million years would a pilot get airborne and do something daft (jump, fly over grandad's gaff, beat up the (ex-) girlfriend's shop). Nah, course not Malcolm, never happen.

No, no, no, never. No chance. Not whilst there are dogs on the street.:}

Where did I put me coat....

[Oggin Aviator]

Whenever I am aircraft captain (yes it happens a lot in the RN - backseaters legally in charge :ok: ) I would not allow my pilots to do anything stupid or illegal. Its just not worth it. I have flown over my parents house at low level and waved hello, however this was on a properly planned, briefed and legally authorised sortie. Events like these can happen well within the rules. What other aircrew get up to is their business.

Then again I may be in the minority but I dont think so.

Mr C, I do agree about rules being followed, but this small issue of not allowing the carrying (= physically attached to flightsuit by a piece of cord) of aircrew knives by aircrew on duty on service aeroplanes does annoy me. Perhaps you as a JO could talk to someone senior and get an amendment to the rules, then we would all be happy. You might even get a Herbert Lott for increasing morale amongst aircrew pax :D :D

Oggin

[TAC Queen]

Question for Oggin aviator

Do you really need your knife that badly, is it just because you feel that if you go down in the oggin you can cut your self out of the frame or are you planning on doing some woodwork or maybe some fruit sculpture to pass the many hours of boredom when travelling as a passenger?
I’m afraid non of these are possible because if you go down in the oggin chances are the frame will sink like a stone and also the aircrew knife cannot cut through butter never mind the airframe. Or is it because it makes you stand out.(look at my big knife girls)

I have a suggestion why don’t you propose to amend the current security procedures to say all sharp objects are banned from hand luggage. UNLESS
They are attached by a piece of flimsy string to your leg.
In that case can take my 9MM on board as the holster attaches to my leg? (This is my weapon this is my gun)

I still firmly believe that officers should not be issued with any thing that can cut; this includes paper.

All spelling mistakes are because I can’t spell

[M134]

TQ

You've never really thought about ditching have you?

[Oggin Aviator]

TAC - Well you really are a Queen as well as having a pathetic sense of humour.

My knife may one day save my life in my sinking helicopter, indeed they have in the past. I dont see why I should alter my uniform just to keep some snotty nosed non comm happy.

and BTW, I dont give a toss what you do with your 9mm, if it was mine I'd take that along as well.

I still firmly believe that other ranks should be gently reminded now and again about being respectful to Officers; this includes SNCOs i.e. Lets start this conversation again shall we, and this time lets realise that I am the Officer and you are the NCO.

With respect to all the decent hard working SNCOs who keep the Services running. Its just these jumped up ar$eholes I cant stand.

Oggin

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Oggin,

Stop that officer sh@t RIGHT NOW :mad: It has no place on here:mad:

As a fellow ALM I am not sure where TQ is coming from however the last few lines of your post sound very childish to say the least.......b@ll@kin finish's:p

Bearing in mind everything said on here so far, by those who actually count, as regards the knife/gerber subject has clearly stated the rule is b@ll@ks, enforced by atomatons whose JO's and SNCO's are incapable of standing out from the crowd by trying to make a reduction in "trade fun", lets now give the subject a rest as it aint going to change:ok:

Didntdoit.........now I see why you lot are called muppets:O

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

PS Over to you Mr C........prove us wrong:ok:

[Oggin Aviator]

ABIW

I was feeling childish at the time :*

My last few lines were just a play on what TQ had written.

Oggin

[TAC Queen]

Thats SNCO to you sir!:ok:

Granted you require your knife when flying in your helicopter. But please explain why you need it when paxing on a multi engine aircraft.
Please use small words as I am only a SNCO and cannot read very fast.
I am standing to attention and saluting as I type this.

Yes I have thought about ditching on my previous and current aircraft type and have looked into examples as it is my job to get every one down the back out. Have you?

I do agree that the rule does not make sense as you have troops who have just had a automatic weapon with x amount of round walking around but they then cannot get on a aircraft with a pen knife. I would just like some one to justify why they need it. I don’t care one bit if they carry them or not. I’m just sick to the back teeth of people wining over bollocks.

[BEagle]

Well stop causing such bollocks then!

Years ago when I was first on the VC10K, we didn't carry loadmasters. We once took some Buccaneer mates home from Cyprus, plus their flying kit. Which included LSJs (+ miniflares etc), knives etc. The pompous 'Master Engineer' (who was ex-shiny fleet) started mouthing off about 'DAC regs.....not allowed.....'. So, in a particular CRM moment he was told to "Shut the f*ck up, the LSJs will go in a poly bag behind the seats and that's that. Oh - and don't forget, mister Engineer, they are aircrew officers. So if you don't treat them as such, expect to be in front of the boss when you get home!"

Heady days - when captains were king. As a co-pilot, I was very impressed at this captain's ability to put d*ckheads back in their box when it mattered.

[JohnB]

Way back on this thread Pig Clarke said


It is a shame that teamwork still takes such a back burner in the RAF to individual posturing and one-upmanship which is so valued in the Military.

When the lofty loadie serves the meal to the Captain he in turn looks down his nose at Sgt Lofty, and so the never ending saga goes on.

The last few posts seem to be proving him right...

[Blakey875]

ABIW

If nothing else you're persistent (and repetetive!). you made the same comments in March on the "Sorry, you're a pax now" thread. Same answers apply as well, the Movers don't make these rules they are ATSy one's. You're also the guy who says he promptly hands back out the sharp implements to the pax after "doors closed". If you and your brethren don't like the rule why don't you bring it up at the ALM Standardisation Meeting and get it changed rather than constantly bleating about it here?

Personally I don't recollect the poor LAC on the check-in desk confiscating the knives - it's alawys been the plods by the scanner. The comment about knives being on the end of a cord is not always true neither is it? I thought that the knives had been removed from all aircrew at Lyneham but the Loadies got theirs back on the grounds they needed it to stab the milk carton....

Scapegoat

The question of who packed the bags is one of five that are mandatorily asked by all civvy and military pax staff and has been so for at least the last 25 years. One of the other questions is "Are you carrying anything for someone else?" On that one even in recent years the answer has produced some remarkable answers including:

1. Fast Jet guys arrived from Bruggen who had placed LSJs in their hold baggage whilst flying from Germany courtesy of Britannia.

2. A female medic on her way to Sierra Leone carrying fully charged Sarbe beacons for the SH crews on det from Odiham - the squipper Sgt said it was okay...

3. Tins of paint "to touch up the caravan with"....

4. Christmas Crackers - yes, it was the festive season and aren't the movers killjoys....

Once the mover receives a positive answer to the latter he sadly cannot 'turn a blind eye' as if he did the RAFP who are next in the chain would no doubt make an issue of it.

I did a course with British Airways a few years ago and their Senior Dangerous Cargo Instructor said his worst nightmare was of someone carrying a pot of 'Instant expanding foam' as used to seal leaks on yachts, the thought of it initiating in a lower hold is unimaginable.

Right guys, stupid rule concerning sharp implements on military aircraft so let's get it changed. ABIW, what kind of man are you Gladys? Go and start a campaign and see how far you get.

[MSF]

Ah yes, the day is finally here when rodney and teaboy are complaining about airmen who not only know their jobs, but are not afraid to enforce the regs.(Airman dont you know who I am? )

I think the Valujet disaster is the only message we need ref DAC carriage.
Does anyone remember the photo of the confiscated Hexamine mountain at WID?
I remember the fight I had with OC rockapes at Wittering when he was caught trying to smuggle CS canisters on an Ex flt in his baggage.

The 'did you pack your bags?' question appeared after a terrorist conned his girlfriend into carrying his suitcase bomb after he did a runner at LHR - this was picked up by check-in and security staff.

Also the jumpseating Fedex FE? that attacked the crew on his flight with a hammer - attempted suicide, no less.

While loading a vent hold on a VC10 I picked up a bag that was red hot. Some pongo hadn't removed the batteries from his razor and it had somehow switched itself on.
The bag was about 10 mins away from starting a hold fire.
The fire service had an agreement with us at that time , we keep the fires on the ground and they will fight them.

Small things that seem insignificant have a habit of ballooning to great big things with big teeth that will bite you.
Even I remember those Flight Safety films that we were dragged to.
Not too many Officers or aircrew at those, if I remember correctly.

On ops and ex flights, weapons are usually collected and placed in bundles, the pax do not carry them on board.
The only time they carry them on board is when they will be needed at the destination, although things may have changed.

These regulations may not make sense to the great unwashed but the guys that enforce them know why.
Most have probably had at least one experience that justifies the enforcement of one reg that seemed pointless to them previously.

[BEagle]

You are confusing items which are clearly 'hazardous' as defined in the DAC manuals, and items which ATSY plod have decided might be used as weapons in their post 9/11 plod paranoia.

Hexamine falls into the former category, aircrew flying equipment falls into the latter.

What is needed is someone with the company neurone to act sensibly in order to stop the current stupidity.

No longer affects me personally though as I no longer wear a green bag with or without knife.........or horribly dangerous mini-maglite ;). Can't use that, sir, it's not Han Happroved Tool. Neither is this pen, idiot!

[Muppet Leader]

Two things.

First,

I remember during one Gurkah move from Hong Kong to Kathmandu, seeing two guys sitting on the floor getting a brew on with their mess tins over a hexi stove !

Dangerous Air cargo, is just that.
By itself, the product or compund may be inert, but once in contact with another substance . . . .
Like the good old admin pack up.
Spare square batteries. On top would be the wire wool to make a nice circuit, next to that was the carbon paper and thinners for the dry wipe boards.

Second,

I must concur with Mr BEagle with regard to the current stupidity, with which the regulations are being enforced.
On a flight back from Dallas the other week, my old trusty Leatherman had to be either handed into the crew, or stowed in my hold luggage for the duration of the flight, but I was however allowed to keep on my person a BIC biro and a 50 pence piece !

Leatherman blade two and a half inches - BIC biro protruding through my knuckles and resting on the 50p in my palm, a good five and three quater inches.

Please someone sort this out.
:sad:

[JohnB]

18 Sep 2001 Air Canada flight to St Johns and then Goose Bay.

Can't take nail scissors in hand baggage as it could be used as an offensive weapon.

Meal served - no metal cutlery only plastic, same reason as above. Offered a drink wiht the meal - asked a red wine and given a small GLASS bottle which was left with me.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Whislt I think Beag's has a valid point about changing things it seems, if we are to believe all the posts so far submitted:p it would obviously be too difficult.

We need to educate the travelling military "public" to accept the fact that entry into any RAF terminal instantly inccurs an enforced, and often extended period of "dick dancing":yuk: which needs enduring until the aircraft doors finally close and normal service life resumes:p

The downside of this is the fact that, due to fuel carrying limitations along with galley and bog capacity :p the aircraft will eventually have to land and this will normally entail another round of the afore mentioned "cha cha" before emerging out through the sliding doors and back to the real world:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Muppet Leader]

John B.

What about the corkscrew ?

[JohnB]

Corkscrew??? For other ranks - good grief we only have screw top bottles.

Besides corkscrews are a bit technicle for a mover to operate.

[Ralf Wiggum]

Wow. I haven't been on this forum for ages and I am so impressed to see that everyone is still going on about this.

Following my last post on this subject (Page 4), the Det I was on was Italy and the troops at the sharp end were in the Balkans, while fighting was ongoing. No they weren't dry, just they couldn't get their favourite tipple. Shame that the selfish git wouldn't change the manifest for the sake of 2 slabs of Guinness, but would for a couple of car loads of their own stuff.

And FYI, I am not and never have been a Mover or a Loadie.

Wish I'd telephoned the feds now and asked them to pre-warn UK customs.

Finally, Oggin, you are correct. Officers should be respected by SNCOs and the Erks. That said, shouldn't you set an example by respecting the regulations of your seniors and your government or do you consider yourself above all that nonsense?:D

[DummyRun]

Fantastic!!

This is almost worth a new thread of it's own, in fact I think I'll cal it Muppetry.

Load Moving..............

[Echo 5]

Dummy,

Some of the contributors to this thread were starting to introduce some humour and semi serious debate of which I am sure there must be a lot more scope.
Now you decide to open a new thread presumably to enable you idle front seat lot to relate some silly stories about (alleged) Mover ineptitude.
You are one sad person.

Load stuck....................

[dc8loadie]

Echo 5 , you really should not rise to "dummy" ignore him and if he does not get the attention he craves, he will eventually throw all his toys and dummy out of the cot and sulk.:ok:

[Echo 5]

dc8loadie,

You are right of course, I should not have risen to the somewhat pathetic bait.
Judging by the opening post on the other thread the Dummy, poor chap, would appear to be totally confused which would probably explain his ungentlemanly conduct when he had a dig at the lady Mover earlier in this thread.

[Oggin Aviator]

Ralph,

No to your question, see my post on page 10 :ok:.

Oggin

[OBNO]

Twelve pages of childish drivel. Your tax payers would be very proud to read all of this. Well done.

[The Gorilla]

What a banal and pathetic thread this has turned into and it does nil credit to any one.

Seems to me to have turned from a movers v loadies to an Officers v airmen bun throwing fight.

What does come through loud and clear is that, in the Royal Air Farce of today:

The Airships set stupid rules with no thought for the damage they can do.

Common sense no longer exists anywhere within the military.

People in the RAF don't respect each other, never have and never will.

Perhaps a new RAF Motto should be:

To blindly go where common sense has never been!

:ok:

[Echo 5]

OBNO,

I note that you (allegedly) live in the land of OZ. Rather than worry about the British tax payer perhaps you should be more concerned about the fortunes of the Australian rugby team and leave us to play our silly game of drivel.

[I_stood_in_the_door]

and who r the whining tossers who need a team of 6 (1 offr, 1 snco, 1 jnco and a slack handful of gay lacs) to do the jump when a 4 man crew from the army (1 jnco and 3 toms) can do it so much better.

oh, and can drink lots of wife beater too!

love and kisses

xxxx:ok:

sorry, the job. 2/10 for spelling!

[BEagle]

It is always heartening to read such elucidating and well expressed prose as that posted by the previous correspondent.

[dc8loadie]

Yes apparently "I stood in the door " is just posted in to Rompers Green as the new OC of the Herc OCU just to make sure all the new crews are trained how to cope with movers properly.!!!!:= :D :ok:

[Grimweasel]

How eloquently put there by "I stood in the door" Bravo old chap! At least the bunch of wife beater drinkin' dudes can do the job after a skinfull. The movers would all be in the med centre after a few aspirin and a day off to help them with their hangover!!

"Lash this box where loadie?" Movers ........know your place.....go and clean out the racasan from mit bog!!

[I_stood_in_the_door]

and no doubt get a few extra quid to boot (PWON)!

higher rate and all,
god bless them all.

wot no chains?

yip yip
pint of top shelf please chogi!

[Echo 5]

I_stood_in_the_door,

Are you using some sort of Prohibited Substance cos I for one just do not know WTF you are on about.

[FFP]

Chogi !!!

What a great word !

Haven't heard that in ages but it always brings a smile to my face !!

Chogi !!!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

FFP,
Beware with that sort of language as you never know where an undercover BBC camera might be:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[FFP]

I know I know !

It just sounds great. It could mean something totally different but would still sound funny.

Off to look for hidden cameras

[EESDL]

Pray, tell me why we have a thread that mentions Muppets....Thought this was an aircrew site?
Muppets have their site over on the Flt Ops/ Airport/Handling section.

[Echo 5]

ABIW/FFP

I have just consulted an Asian colleague regarding the term
Chogi but he wasn't familiar with it.
He did however come up with three close alternatives in the Hindi language:
Choky meaning Prison
Chauki meaning Shed
and
Chudi meaning Knickers
I rather suspect that isitd may have visited one, lives in another,and wears the other. I could be wrong though.

EESDL

Have you been asleep since 22nd August ?

[I_stood_in_the_door]

echo5,

yawn, stretch!

i prefer the fact that chogi = barman

to all enjoy!

lead, follow or get out of the f**cking way!

:ok:

[Echo 5]

Gentlemen (and Lady),

I did consider starting a new thread called " Pongos" since a couple of guys from the Army,probably 47AD, decided to join in the fun.
I've no axe to grind as I always got on well with our brothers in brown so I've resisted the urge to start a new thread and decided instead to pose a question which may be a suitable subject for debate.

Question : What value added contribution do the Army make to RAF Air Transport operations and why I wonder is this tasking not
carried out by an RAF Unit ?

[ZH875]

Its simple, if anyone is going to clobber grunts on the ground, it had better be grunts in the air.

If they pack it, at least the crabs can blame somebody else if it all turns to ratsh1t.

.

[I_stood_in_the_door]

zh875,

yes things go wrong but it helps if the stores are dropped in the right place!if our colleagues in blue cant find south cerney (down the m4, turn left. up the 419 and its on the left) we wont get a sporting chance!

echo5,

sit still at the back, history is about to begin.......

ahem,

since the first airdrop in 1916(?), probably by the RFC, at kut al alamar near the river tigris, the army has carried out the task of aerial resupply. the stores were dropped using blankets for parachutes on the first occasion and has developed into the technical array of delights which we have today.

there was no great need for aerial resupply following the end of ww1 so the practise of air drop was somewhaat limited.

hiler was about to change all this.

as you know ww2 kicked off and the british and herallies got stuffed at dunkirk. around 1942, following the formtion of airborne units under thedirection of churchill, a massive gap was realised regarding the resupply ofl ightly armed troops many miles behind enemy lines and away from normal logistical resupply chains.

therefore air despatch units were formed to meet the gap in the capability. 2 AD Groups were formed to support subsequent operations, the most notable being the effort to resupply the 1st britsh airborne division at arnhem. this was a gallant effort by both the ad units and raf transport command, which ended in failure.

116 air despatchers lost their lives in this effort to support the ground troops, the largest loss of troops by any single unit during the second world war.

for its efforts and bravery, the ad formation was awarded the battle honour of a golden dakota flynig on a blue background. this is still worn with pride by serving members today.

since then, the ad formation has gradually been reduced to the single sqn you now see today. air despatchers have worked in harness with the raf on many operations and general tasking since 1944 and will continue to do so indefinitely.

end of lesson.

in answer to your question, are there any raf units that would wish to do the job that 47 AD do or is it just crewroom chuntering.

if there are, tell em to fess up pronto and i can retire!

after all it is a demanding job (just like everyones at the secret air base!) and often unrewarded but always completed to a high standard.

if you would like me to extol the virtues of the average air despatcher then please say. they are rather good at what they do you know!

remember: train hard, fight easy.

lead, follow or get out of the f**king way!

isitd

:ok:

[Echo 5]

isitd,

Thanks for that brief but interesting history of AD (I'm not taking the pi$$).
Many years ago in a rocky and sandy place in Arabia I was on a MAMS team working alongside 16 squadron and I think 60 squadron RCT. Are these units still in existance or are they part of Logistics Corp or some other organisation ?

[Blakey875]

ISITD

I presume Hiler is better known as Adolf Schicklegruber?...

Yes, we all do our part at the Secret Airbase but must your young lads keep tearing down the trees on the main drag?

The RAF made a study (or two) into taking on the AD commitment but discovered it costs a heck of a lot of money to pay for the black tape and nylon cord and as the Army were happy to pay for the publicity decided to leave it alone.

[ZH875]

ISITD

I was not trying to imply that 47AD get it wrong sometimes, I think they do a great job. I was implying that if something did go wrong their Sir-ships up front would need a scapegoat, However, if the Army dunnit, then their Ar$e$ are covered.

If it is Blue - Salute it

If it is green - RUN

[Theodopolopidis]

:ok:
Last time I saw 2 movers on an assult course, also on an Military competition in America was in 1992. Unfortuantely their impressive fitness regime didn't come into play (including being RAF Para trained) as they were too busy worrying about the badges on their flying suits to concentrate on the nitty grittty of actually completing the assult course the same day, let alone before all the competitiors had actually packed up and gone back to thier various countries of origin.

Never mind, sterling effort chaps. At least you managed to get 3/4 of the way around before failing to negotiate the 3rd to last obstacle which only carried 25% of the total point available.

[I_stood_in_the_door]

blakey,

i believe the tree topping incident was a few years ago. boys will be boys!

hiler was hitlers little known about twin!!

teehee

echo,

not sure but think 60 sqn is at abingdon.

isitd:uhoh:

[Mr C Hinecap]

Theodopolopidis - point is???

Or is there a secret international-inter-trade-assault-course-in-flying-suits competition that I've missed out on all these years?

I'm sure the Ascoteer Gentlemans Flying Club would put in a good team!

[Echo 5]

isitd,

Ah Abingdon!! The spritual home of the real UKMAMS. These were heady days, before the political animals in the leadership decided that there was too much Espirit de Corp and packed them of to Lyneham to be swallowed up.
Tell you something else - I can't remember any serious bitchiness between the UKMAMS guys and Loadies in those days.

E5

[Blakey875]

Theo

What the heck are you talking about? The obstacle course was always completed in Trop DPM trousers and OG tee shirt... For as long as I can remember that part of the competition was always completed by a joint team of Movers/AD. I also gather that the Mover would insult the Pongo and start running so as to encourage them to complete the course by chasing him!...

We can't be that bad as the trophy cabinets at Lye are full of awards for ERO competitions, Best team, best foreign team etc. Best laugh you lot gave me was when you placed the MSP directly on top of the Judges Humvee!

[I_stood_in_the_door]

blakey,

army dznco 'you don't want to park on the IP, sir'

top ranking yank 'sheeet, you guys will miss the dee zee!'

5 min slater, one smashed up humvee and a very red faced chromer.

happy days - you cannot teach it!!

isitd

:ok:

[Echo 5]

Theodopolopidis,

Is isitd or Grimweasel on a recruiting drive? Looks like AD are preparing for a full frontal assault, which is fine. The more the merrier.

[5KSTROP]

boys boys boys,
sorry would call you men or gentlemen even, though i feel with all the immature tittle tattle between the two great pillars that we know as the RAF loadies and movers, you don't actually warrant an adult title.
If you were at some point in the services and decided to leave then, stay away you have no say in future force ops policies and if you want a say rejoin. boring boring we don't tell you how to drive your taxi's etc.

if you are a mover and you feel trips dets ops cannot be carried out with out you, funny old thing many an evening has been spent be non movements personnel on foriegn fields, meeting an A/C which the movers get off and rtn to hotel, leaving any body spare to unload the aircraft re role and restack. ensuring when you get back to the hotel in time for brekkie the fat movers are just getting in off the piss.

loadies you are but brew makers, route is route the movers are right they do if for ya, and for tac not all are tarred mit same brush but usually your very well guided by the army boys who actually do all the work on tac for ya. so the qu? do you actually do anything.

on a whole boys don't we make decisions at a young age and choose our vocations in life, so if ya unhappy with ya pay ya work etc change it. Every one has a different role and each trade is req'd. Lets not pretend though that anyone one is greater than the other as shall we say if you were all that clever realistically you'd actually be driving the aircraft instead of whining about the GD **** you all find so hard to do, pity you don't find as hard to freely whinge about it eh pikey's......

by the way total lack of grammatical prowes yes...,,2'
but at least has probably wound someone up and to the muppet leader whom needs to give his ass a chance it must be redundant all the **** flying round in his head, if you were so gr8 and movers are so reliable why does it take ;
an officer
a snco
a cpl
a sac
to fly anywhere in this tiny world with one pallet surely the civvies who clean the toilets at your place could manage and control that eh......of is it just so you all get a shot at doing your own work for a change..............any spelling errors poke it..
:confused:

[16 blades]

So what exactly is the difference between a mover and a civvy baggage handler? (except that civvy BHs know they're nobody particularly important, and a trained monkey could do their job)

[hoofhearted]

Probably the same difference between a PPL and a failed FJ pilot, only the PPL doesn't have a chip on his shoulder.:{

[Grimweasel]

Whatever!!!!

I've been away for a week and this tiresome thread has descended into the pits of hell.
Lets just all drink a few largers in the bar, remind each other of good times and get down the Patio Doors house.
If the tax paying populus were to view this thread then they would be on the phone to Gordon Brown for a swaging round of defence cuts as we quite clearly can't be adult enough to get on.

I must highly recommend the d'Arenburg range of Aussie reds. The Laughing Magpie is exceptional. Do enduldge. It may calm the tempestious minds.............................

[Blakey875]

GW

Sadly this has only happened since the element from Air Despair started poking in their oar with foul language and worse grammar. Exactly the same sort of behaviour as happens at Lyneham I might add......

[Echo 5]

Blakey875,

Just spotted a new contributor in the form of 5KSTROP.There is most certainly a recruiting drive on within AD. I'm afraid you are correct regarding the down turn in good grammar and the increase in foul language.

Grim.

If the thread is becoming tiresome then why do you continue to contribute ?

[I_stood_in_the_door]

echo, blakey,

tut, tut! would you two like a saucer of milk with that?

how serious you both are, only a bit of simple baiting from the boys in brown and you fall all too readily...........

educated peeps like your good selves, too!

enjoy, my good sirs and do take life a little less seriously.

isitd

:}

[Echo 5]

isitd,

Well done mate,you did not fail me. I just knew that you were waiting to get in the 200th post (hee hee).
Actually Blakey and I are not serious or bitter people but someone has got to keep stirring the pot to keep you lot moving.
With regards to the poor grammar, it would be nice to see the odd capital letter and comma. It makes reading so much easier.
Anyway I'm sure you're enjoying this as much as we are.Simple things and all that !!

E5

[I_stood_in_the_door]

do i get a clasp stating 'pprune' or don't my accumulated posts add up?

damn, thought there were medals in this boys!

'tis fun mucker, no?

re: grammar and punctuation.

am thick squaddie so unable to comply.

am v sorry, extra tuition from your fine teachership to continue, no doubt............

l8rs.

isitd

:8

[FEBA]

Grimweasel
Please read your PM's
FEBA

[Echo 5]

16 blades,

Thought your post had passed unnoticed did you ? Not so. Just wondered if you have a particular axe to grind regarding Movers or are you just another front end bunny who craves attention ?

E5

[I_stood_in_the_door]

tis quiet?

yip yip

isitd



:ok:

[Echo 5]

isitd,

Just thee and me mate.
Anything controversial we can rant about this Friday afternoon ?

E5

[Mr C Hinecap]

I was going to let 16 wither & die with that comment. Since you spotted it:

I wanted an engineer to pop up (not often I want for THAT) and throw the lovely little phrase in here:
"You can train a monkey to ride a bike, but you can't train him to fix it." - well - it makes me smile.

Different jobs - movers & baggage handlers - just different jobs.

As for isitd - pushing a pallet when a light flashes - you TRAIN for that???

[Muppet Leader]

They push the pallet when the red light flashes ?

Why?

Can't the driver just bend his wrist back a little bit, then it'll all fall out by itself won't it ?:D

[I_stood_in_the_door]

muppet leader,

are we talking 13c or 7a?

'lash this in where loadie?'

isitd



:ok:

[Echo 5]

Nice to know that you guys are still out there.I was starting to feel a bit lonely.

Mr C.

I almost did ignore 16 but thought "what the hell ". I just hope DC8 doesn't give me another bo!!ocking for taking the bait.
Obviously my question was too difficult for 16 to answer by himself so I reckon he is probably consulting with one or two of his front end mates. I'm prepared for a long wait !!

E5

[3xGreens]

I've been following various threads on the Military Aircrew Forum for some time now and thought it was about time I registered.
The Movers v Loadies thread has been particularly enjoyable and some of the posts have been excellent from both sides. I notice that on the first couple of pages the aircrew have taken the offensive and apart from ABIW and TAC Queen have come up with nothing better than snide one liners.The Movers although not squeaky clean have been more moderate in their posts and have probably been trying to bring some humour to the proceedings.
The arrival of I_stood_in_the _door has certainly brought a smile to my face on a couple of occassions and I hope there will be plenty more to come.
Keep it up guys there is plenty of fun to be had.

[5KSTROP]

:yuk: yep yuk scapes me old boring beardy lady, what you getting all ruffled for mr beaver. As you well know many a civvie has explosives in his heal and also forty grammes of peruvian in his saddle bag. So yes the need is there to be checked, but alas how many demented idots swinging swords do you find on the way thru the teminal transiting to an op or exercise. For not why mr sensible are the same checks not carried out a week later when the guys in theatre are running up the ramp or jumping onboard the kite to be dropped in a HOT LZ with pouches brimming and fully magged, sorry there, probably abit to complicated check 2gp so's we're allowed not even a pen knife one day and the very next we can have a round up the spout and a bayonet fitted so who's the arse/ the guy whom one day has some **** (acting) saying pack ya bergen ya self mate with his six cell, cuffs, and mini mag hanging around him or the guy whom six times a year has to put himself at the sharp end yes you will be suprised to know the forces do actually have people whom work for a living ,get wet , shot at, and don't survive on spare in flt catering hot coffee in the terminal or sit in the early hours dishing out parking fines as they have small d@'ks and very large egos. Oh and movers if don't want a bad name mend your ways as there are alot of you good girls and boyz marred by the few who are MOBILE well not mobile but you know who you are the twats with chips chips as big as battle ships what a bore what a bore......your all a spent force pay peanuts, get monkies..
OBVIOUSLY NO OFFENCE INTENDED TO ANY ONE ON THE PLANET ALTHOUGH I WOULD HAVE THOUGHT MOVERS OR AT LEAST ONE LITTLE PIGGY MAY RUN ALL THE WAY HOME. ANY LIKENESS OR SIMILARITY FOUND IN THIS TEXT IS NOT INTENDED AND ALL CHARACTERS ARE FICTICIOUS HE HE COPYRIGHT OF BLUEJOB PRODUCTIONS LTD. :sad: :{ :} :mad:

[dc8loadie]

5kstrop. merry xmas you tos@er !!!:} := :p

[Blakey875]

5K

It's quite apparent you are a pongo and still have a very large grudge against the RAF in general and Movers in particular. Obviously one of them has s@2££ed you girlfriend, get over it! Why do Air despairers always harp on about tooling up and jumping out etc - you are not a real soldier and only dream of doing it. For gods sake get yourself back into arrse wher you belong. The best bit about the J is they don't need AD......

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Of course the other good thing about the J is if you put two Loadie's on it you would'nt need any movers:ok: Now what would that save in rates and pie's:p merry Xmas one and all!!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[LunchMonitor]

Blakey,

The best bit about the J is they don't need AD......

You obviously never came on the first operational deployment of the J to Afghanistan then, where each crew had an Air Despatcher as an integral and well appreciated part of it.

You are obviously oblivious to the fact`that the J does airdrop and therefore takes air despatchers flying on a regular basis.

Apart from these two minor points you were almost correct.

Merry Xmas to all and to all a goodnight.

[Blakey875]

LM

Tell me more, have we bought the spam system and are dropping MSPs and 1 ton containers or are you talking about throwing cartons out on handkerchief parachutes?

[dc8loadie]

ABIW

if you had 2 loadies on the j , you would still need a duty adult to look after them !!

Merry Xmas from the big blue and white bird:ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

DC8,
I think he's called the "GE":ok:

Mery Xmas one and all

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Echo 5]

Everyone,

Just got back from Gods country this PM and am catching up on the posts for the last 7 days.
I am just wondering if I've had a bit too much IRN BRU as I've just been trying to read the post by 5K and I cannot understand WTF he is going on about. Has he just latched on to the discussion about Aircrew knives or is he just another rambling Pongo ?

A Happy New Year to all PPRuNers.

E5

[I_stood_in_the_door]

lordy lordy the front doors exploded!!

merry christmas one and all (including the pongos and the crabs and all the rest of the old bluffers out there!!)

hope santa was good to you.

surely mr 5k strop should read mr 2250 kg strop?

thanks for all the free lager - put me in hospital! happy days

do the raf shag or make love? heaven knows.

loadies - keep on eating the pies.

movers - lash this in where loadie?

ad - keep playing mr d. advocate!!

lead follow or get out of the f**king way

'front rank, fire!!'

how do you make gold soup?

:}

[dc8loadie]

looks like I stood in the door might have been on a reading and writing course ??


haapy new year from a disllexic ex mover :ok:

[Echo 5]

DC8,

I thought I may have over indulged during the festive season but I'm not really sure. isitd and 5KSTROP are either the same person or they are Clones. Either way they have left me totally bemused.
You don't really believe the bit about the reading and writing course - do you ?

[3xGreens]

E5/DC8

In another thread I used the term "doppelganger". More or less like a clone I would say.
They are certainly amusing though.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

What ever the answer, and bearing in mind the amount of common sense they both make:rolleyes: , they BOTH sure sound like pongo's:p

nuff said:ok:

Happy New Year one and all.........even the Army:O

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[I_stood_in_the_door]

damn. you cunning chaps have nearly rumbled us.

alas, not quite old boy!!

whilst similar in looks and stature ( and the unique ability to put away the wife beater!) mr ****8 **** and I are indeed two different peeps. bring it on poirot!!

as to the chap who mentioned handkerchiefs for parachutes, 1 tons and msp will most probably not used on the J. However, cds (?) and lmosl may well be in the future. all because the j can only go straight and level (oops nearly spilt my cocoa. wheres my pipe and slippers, loadie? bring it on chaps!)

as before, leave the gucci stuff to the Klassic.

well, girls and boys, chin chin to you all have have a stonking new year.

if you see me in the mess, mines a large bombay spice, go easy on the tonic!!

veuve clicqout for ever!!

lash this in where loadie?

lead follow or get out of the f***king way!!

1000, 2000, 3000 check canopy!!

put nine carrots in it!! ha ha!!

isitd

:}

where art thou grimweasel?

[dc8loadie]

He can't be AD as hes too eloquent !!!

methinks its a front end wind up. ?:p

[Grimweasel]

Fear not young deciples of the lord Prune. The thin stoat like creature is still much in evidence allthough suffering from too much fine red over the Xmas period!!
A fine new year to one and all. Heres hoping that the El Presidente Blair finds us a new global scrap to get involved in this year!! Bloody Iranians buckled to mere diplomatic pressure with out the common decency to allow us to drop a single Storm Shadow in their back garden. Wooses. Just like Saddam . All talk and no trousers the dirty left hand **** wipin' sand sliverys!!

Soon be time to go back to work........:{ :{ :{

[I_stood_in_the_door]

grim,

back to the shop floor for you old boy!!

any fine reds in norway? pass on my regards to snatch mit and let the debauchery begin.

my turn for the ricketty chair!!

lead follow yady yardy!


ah, monsieur dc8, more miss marple required me old chutney ferret.

chin chin. another lick of paint and i'd be a goner!
and on the seventh day, the lord did rest.


rgds all. happy new year, wherever you maybe.

isitd

xx:}

[Echo 5]

ABIW,

I know next to zilch about the C130J except that there has been some sort of problem with the engines.

Can you tell me what this is all about :

" all because the J can only go straight and level ".

Is our tame Pongo ranting again or is he making sense for once ?

E5

[I_stood_in_the_door]

All,

phew, was a belter! New Year was a blur - finally managed to get the infamous hair down. Pesky mutt.

Hope yours was as good as mine. I wish you all peace and goodwill for 2004. Oh, and more inane banter. Keep it up chaps and chapessess.

Lash this in where, loadie?


lfogootfw

isitd

:8

[Echo 5]

I_stood_in_the_door,

Okay,you and 5KSTROP are two seperate individuals and the Grim one makes three. I just hope that you all don't multiply into a green epidemic.
Why don't the three of you get your heads together and come up with some interesting posts without all the meaningless rantings that we have all been subjected to so far.
I admit that you are sometimes amusing but it does become tiresome.
Thank you for your seasons greetings which were most appreciated.

E5

[Grimweasel]

In that case Echo 5 why not bounce your inane sonar pulses off to another, more Guardian related thread where you can talk about the merits of the Light Emmiting Diode??

[Echo 5]

Grim person,

As I said - " meaningless rantings ".

E5

[Blakey875]

Weasel

Emitting - 1 x m 2 x t's

If you can't spell it you can't kill it!

[dc8loadie]

Grimweasel , why don't you take yourself and your 2 "mates" off to the forum at www.arrse.co.uk , your inane wit may be more appreciated there !!!! := ;) :ok:

[I_stood_in_the_door]

dc8,

Golly, and I thought this was a professional site. tee hee. Why go elsewhere when so much fun can be had here, just waiting for the likes of your good self to amuse me and many others?

As before, 'tis good fun!

Or is this just for the RAF professional aircrew in our midst? Methinks not.

Once more unto the breach!

Rgds

isitd

:}

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

You may well have "stood in the door" but who cleared you to do so:ok: squaddies.......don't you just luv em:p

Happy new year to you all

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[lloydwickham]

I have never read such good banter before, and it is so close to my heart!!
The only good winchweight i came across pulled me out of the North Sea not kicked me into it, and i only ever pissed on Movers as i couldn't be one, so i became a Supplier and could do both jobs!!!
Keep up the banter, i'll just get another box of tissues to await some relpies.

[3xGreens]

Grimweasel,

I find it somewhat incredible that considering some of the vitriolic (note spelling) and vulgar content of some of your previous posts on this and other threads you should have the audacity to suggest to Echo 5 that he should move off to another thread.
Just in case you have missed the obvious it was he who created this thread for the benefit, primarily, of Movers and Loadies although I am sure that sensible input from others would have been quite acceptable.

Your loutish behaviour is now starting to pi$$ most people off so why don't you go and play on ARRSE as some others have already suggested or better still, crawl back under the rock from whence you came.

A Happy and Prosperous New Year to all other PPRuNers.

[dc8loadie]

Grimweasel, happy new year to you and your "mates" from Movers and Loadies everywhere ......www.thesun.co.uk/popupWindow/0,,...



:= := := :=

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

DC8 and 3 Greens,
Great suggestions fella's but I feel it's only a matter of time before "they" reply. Perhaps if we ignore them they might just take the hint and join their fellow squaddies on Arrse, that very aptly named site:p However i doubt it.pity :ugh:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[I_stood_in_the_door]

abiw, dc8 and the rest of you happy chaps,

Seems you can only give it (pardon the pun) and when a small amount of banter comes your way you all get on the defensive and puff out your chests!!

Come now friends, in the current tri service climate (purple, I believe it used to be called?) can't we all sling mud, take the pain and enjoy our freedom of speech. Afterall, why did we launch Operation Overlord?

Chin Chin. See you on the playing fields at Eton. Hurrah! Oh, and troops. Why go to ARRSE when we can be in pain in yours?

Do take life less seriously - theres only so many beats in the old ticker.

lfogootfw

isitd

:}

ps abiw, do you really think we wouldn't catch the bait?

:8

[Grimweasel]

3greens ABIW etc.....

I have a few teddy bears here that I believe fell from your prams!!
So sad to see that you rise to such idle banter. Mind you, you blueies always have a habit of spilling the beans and mouthing off when you shouldn't. True to par really. What more can we expect from the spoilt little children of the sky??

Don't come here if you don't want to then. Simple. Don't read it if you hate it so much. But no, you have to show off and retreat behind your boring and oh so predictable usual lark of pickin' people up on their spellin'! How dull. There must be a place for you both on Corrie when KEN BARLOw dies!!

"Oh dear more spelling.......etc"

"Cheers Ken!!" (ie Boring dull grey, "more peas Norma?" John Major persona geeks)

Let the battle commence!!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Like shooting fish in a barrel:rolleyes:

Soooooooo predictable:ok: Still all the time they/he are/is here the standards on ARRSE will not be being dragged down:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Echo 5]

ABIW,

FEBA is looking for " Door Marshalls " for his Egg Banjo Club.
Can you think of any suitable applicants ?

E5

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

E5,
Having checked FEBA's list I think, based on most of the comments made in this thread with regards to our culinary skills:p us Loadies wold be better suited to the vacant position as cook:ok:

Now as regards the "door marshall" position let me think........what sort of attributes does the average bouncer nowadays need:hmm: :hmm:

well I suppose an inbread need to thump anything that walks would be useful.........

an ability to reed and write proper probabaly not essential.........

not be able to string together a small sentence but be able to grunt incoherantly is a must.........

and whilst on holiday consider a shovel to not only be an integral part of the chat up routine but realise it can double up as a "sex toy"

Now where would we find people to fit that sort of bill...........anyway ignore me as i'm just talking ARRSE:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Echo 5]

ABIW,

I think that we are forgetting that FEBA and partners will demand the highest of standards.
Dress sense alone will require short back and sides,dickey bow tie and Dinner Jacket.
I think we can forget shaven heads and donkey jackets don't you know.
Methinks this is going to be a very difficult selection process.

E5

[I_stood_in_the_door]

chasps,

just to get us back on track:

Bluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuueeeeeejobs

isitd

:8