Not that this will happen but I swear I flew LGW-MAN on Jet2 in 2004? It was for a job interview, I lived near Brighton at the time and it was far cheaper and quicker than getting the train!

​​​​​I'm surprised there is seemingly not enough P2P demand for a MAN-LGW service, given the long driving time and unreliable rail service that requires a cross London journey on the Tube

You're not wrong. The route started in January 2004 with prices starting from £15 one way. I can't remember when it ended though.....

First flight 17th January 2005 and final flight 24th March 2007

I can get a train from Gatwick airport to Manchester Piccadilly in 3 hrs 4 mins according to google maps. Unless feeding long haul flights I don't see how an airline is competitive with that on purely P2P traffic.

I think VLM used to do Manchester - City but the improvements to the West Coast mainline a decade ago or so killed it off.

Killed it stone dead at the same time as LCY-LPL sadly, LCY was a proper focus city for blue Fokkers and MAN was a base if I recall correctly?

I thought the only reason for the additional London - Manchester/Liverpool flights around 2005-2007 was because the engineering work to upgrade the train line out of Euston made the train service absolutely hopeless. Yes, it was seriously sh*t - made the service in 2023 look absolutely admirable, even with all the irregularities over the last 12 months. Around 2006, you never knew until maybe a week in advance if there would be trains on a particular day or not - and no most people don't want to spend an extra 2 hours on a bus between two different trains en route.

IIRC even Eastern tried Stansted - Manchester in the mid 2000s?

Quite a few operators back then dipping their toes into the market.

It was never a customer demand problem. It is the availability of scarce runway slots at single-runway LGW. Those slots are a highly-prized resource which end up allocated to the most lucrative route bidding to use them. Timings which wrap around the regular business day are particularly elusive. Viewed as a standalone, MAN-LGW could be profitable. But that is irrelevant: there are other routes vying for those peak slots which are more lucrative and more profitable. The more compelling proposition will prevail. Supply and demand in action.

Although there was a short-lived MAN-LGW schedule last year, that came at a time when the post-covid recovery left unusual slot availability in the short-term. With normal service resumed, peak LGW slots will not trickle down to a MAN service.

easyJet were asked to reduce their domestic ops for this summer after the debacle last year surrounding T1 Domestics/CTA having to be bussed in and sometimes half an hour (plus) waits whilst the buses manoeuvred around the one door. Only once they move over to T2 I can see them coming back onto ABZ/INV and potentially SOU/LGW.

If it is true that a MAG executive ASKED EasyJet to withdraw certain domestic services, then I would like to ASK that executive to find another job more suited to his / her skill level. Somewhere else. Not at Manchester. We've not long lost the FlyBe domestic hub, for goodness sake. And the trains are in chaos.

PLEASE REASSURE ME THAT IT AIN'T SO!!!

Something lost in translation, maybe?

Absolutely crazy if the EZY rumour is true!! Really would put the cherry on the top of MAG poor management. In other news, Jetblue formally announced the Amsterdam routes today. That is now 4 routes launching this year to CDG and AMS. I’d like to think the next targets will be Lisbon, then Dublin and then Manchester? I say this knowing full well this won’t happen, given the apparent recent actions of the management!

​​​​Manchester to London Stansted was originally started by Manx Airways in 1992 which was subsequently taken over by British Airways.

BA/JE 7821 DEP MAN 06.50 ARR STN 07.50 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7823 DEP MAN 10.35 ARR STN 11.35 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7825 DEP MAN 17.30 ARR STN 18.30 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun

BA/JE 7822 DEP STN 08.20 ARR MAN 09.20 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7824 DEP STN 16.00 ARR MAN 17.00 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun
BA/JE 7826 DEP STN 19.00 ARR MAN 20.00 J31 Daily ex Sat, Sun

British Airways axed MAN-STN in 2001 and the route was subsequently taken over by Eastern Airways. The same schedule was more or less kept to the original British Airways timings. I can't quite remember what year Eastern Airways abandoned the route, but I believe that it was around 2003/2004 although I stand to be corrected.

Regarding MAN-SOU

With the loss of MAN-SOU and the total unreliability of Eastern Airways the major cruise lines operating from the Port of Southampton have had to arrange additional coaches to transfer passengers between the two points. In normal circumstances up to two coaches would be available per ship from Manchester and from the surrounding area. For this coming cruise season which has recently commenced there will be up to six coaches per ship from Manchester and the surrounding areas. The ports parking facilities for cruise passengers has had to be expanded by 1200 places to accommodate the extra vehicles. MAN-SOU was always a very popular route for passengers joining their cruise from the Port of Southampton.

The Port of Southampton is Europe's busiest cruise turnaround port with five dedicated cruise terminals with up to twenty cruise company's operating from the Port. The average cruise ship departing the port accommodates up to 3,000 passengers. The Port of Southampton has 586 cruise calls for 2023 with approximately 2.3 million passengers expected through it's five cruise terminals.

A great deal of passengers arriving at the Port of Southampton from Scotland to join their cruise are using the services of Loganair. As mentioned above there are coaching opportunities direct to the Port of Southampton plus the unreliable railways. MAN-SOU is and has always been a very popular route, not just for passengers joining their cruise from the port but also for the wider region.

Southampton is the largest and most important city on the south coast and MAN-SOU serves a purpose and plays a very important part in the UK's domestic connectivity. The population of the City of Southampton and it's metro area is approximately 1.5 million.

Hopefully an airline far more reliable than Eastern Airways will eventually take on the route.

I used to use American and the legacy Cactus route 10-12 round trips a year without much of any major incident.

Yes the 752 J product was inferior but they usually departed on time and I got the miles. Wasn’t much of anything wrong with the A333.

It’s a real shame that they never managed to make the 788 work on the JFK rotation. TCX probably kiboshed that and then went pop.

Given MAGs track record on freight, it would not surprise me at all if they (MAG) want to discourage any domestic flights. Let's face it- there are no specific domestic facilities & pax experience isn't great in T3. Probably in the too difficult tray, wanting to concentrate on high spending in shops bucket and spade flights.
Given the rail network state, MAG could have had a decent domestic business if they invested or cared about it.

A solution to the MAN-SOU problem ( I am actually trying to book to SOU myself for Aug and Nov, probably rail now) is to re-introduce LPL-SOU. The route has operated over a number of years by ATS Vulcan , FlyBe and Eastern. Was popular, LPL also services the NW, its one of the UKs biggest ports ( inc cruises ) and the airport could handle a domestic service such as this easily.

I somewhat suggest this is playing in the background within MAG Group and that their current marketing teams have been diminished because alleged and potentially illegal cross selling

https://www.pprune.org/11374976-post2241.html

I (opinion) expect the Manchester Team are sans deep leadership right now

Cargo was being handled via the East Midlands team. Stansted has its own problems with funding development and parent remains in a recovery process and in financial hock on T2 with known tarmac and parking ( airside) limitations.

I suggest and suspect Manchester remains in consolidation mode through to 2024 even 2025 .

No evidence but that rumour re Easy and domestics ( lack) fits plausibly with such a narrative .

Greenfinch I suppose Speke could pick up the baton on domestics especially with some financial incentive packages and even with a PSO or two.

Problems remain viable operators do they not , we have Loganair, Blue Island and Eastern left and none has enough aircraft or crews to work existing schedules let alone prepare for growth.
Loganair has set their target on prioritising and building up their remedial slots at Windsor and Slough regional
Blue Island I think they work on the dartboard approach and are constantly switching and cancelling routes
And Eastern no comment.

So who do you suggest ?

It also wouldn’t improve provincial connectivity INTO the Manchester long haul product would it.

BTW read elsewhere that the JLA tin can terminal has structural issues almost as bad as pier B and that Peel aren’t interested; is this true ?

People from SOU would not be interested in the MAN long haul product with LHR and LGW available to them. and No

Prior to collapse of Flybe one Virgin and Emirates actually received some considerable feed from the regions indeed go back far enough and BAs New York service received feed from Southampton in particular

And the consolidators routinely offer fare bundles via what might seem odd combinations at times .

No doesn’t answer the second question posed you on the structural issues cladding etc….. ( I’ll wink here as I have an enquiry about that very issue on my desk )

There is only 2 flights a day, so feed is not what is was, if it was at all. Fares are always less from London anyway, so why would you.. I said No, have no idea what you are talking about, passing through LPL on Sunday, I will look to see if anything is a drift.

It’s external sheeting cladding and internal fire containment and stopping work to the structural frame . Doubt you’ll know what to look for
The works to the structural steelwork is extensive much concealed and therefore a structural risk

Now I am loath to quote to be honest as the last job cost me 165k for 120 days

These sorts of issues are actually pretty common and unlike Pier 2 at least there isn’t an asbestos issue .

Manchester had about a quarter of a million transfer passengers per year prior to COVID and Flybe collapse Not insignifiant

Indeed prior to the collapse of Thomas Cook Uk their flights were in code share with Condor with Lufthansa connections so Manchester can work as a hub with the right infrastructure
You don’t become a near 30 million pa airport with 40 operators without some levels of inward feed operations

Was actually just talking about getting between the NW and Southampton.....never mind

I passed through LJLA on Saturday and didn’t notice any work around either the cladding or the frame, but that probably means nothing and I suppose any remedial work may not be in the public space. I have noted comments regarding the building requiring attention elsewhere.

They used to have the best (IMHO) domestic offering in the UK back when Pier A was rebuilt as T1 Domestic. It was an oasis of well behaved, suited and booted calm, where BA's Landor B757s mixed with Loganair and Manx offering more UK domestic destinations than any other UK airport. I always thought that was GLA 's crown with all the Highlands and Islands airports, but no, t'was MAN back then. Of course traffic some was lost to the trains but many were lost to the trauma that is modern T3. It was a passenger experience delight, even without lounge access. Nowadays, domestic at MAN is summed up by BA not even caring enough to have their own lounge anymore. Yeah, follow the money, I know....

Regarding your previous reply which I appreciate.

I totally agree with you regarding a resumption of a service between LPL-SOU.

There are many reasons why a Liverpool to Southampton route should be successful.

Liverpool and Southampton are two great maritime gateways.
Both cities are well established partners and in particular in the ever growing cruise industry.
Liverpool as a destination in itself is a good enough reason.
Southampton with it's large catchment area and Europe's busiest cruise port.
Southampton and it's business link's, huge catchment area which includes the Isle of Wight and Portsmouth International Port.

I would love to see a resumption of a Liverpool to Southampton route. Being born and bred from Southampton and having a maritime background. The City of Liverpool will always have a special place in my heart. My second favourite city in England, without a shadow of a doubt.

​​​​​​I've been to Liverpool many times for business and as well as Manchester for weekend breaks but the thought a long drive ahead of me or a cancelled or delayed train scares me off. I'd much prefer to take the short flight compared to a hellish journey by road or rail. I have not been to Manchester since the collapse of Flybe (mark 1), all because of the absolute unreliability of the incumbent part time operator.

But if no other airline are interested in MAN-SOU than Eastern Airways what would be the outcome. The market is definitely there but the real problem we have is an absolute basket case of an airline that's totally ruining the opportunities available to them. Who in their right mind would book a flight with Eastern Airways feeling totally confident in the knowledge that it won't be cancelled.

So if no other airline are interested in operating MAN-SOU what are the options. Considering that there can't be much hope for a resumption of a Liverpool to Southampton route, unless maybe easyJet took an interest. But if easyJet we're interested in flying between the northwest of England to Southampton I should imagine that it would more than likely be a MAN-SOU route.

Message to easyJet.

Maybe and I said maybe, can you please consider starting MAN-SOU so that we don't have to put up with the totally useless and incompetent and part time incumbent operator we currently have to put up with.

I said maybe, Your gonna be the one that saves me, And after all, You're my wonderwall 👍


​​​​

If there was money to be made, do you really think Eastern would be putting them off? Clearly Eastern think there is money to be made elsewhere, and so does everybody else.

When Flybe did LPL-SOU, they did a pretty good job, used it quite a few times, they even used BAe 146s at times, so was popular. Unfortunately when Eastern took over, they didn't offer the same type of service. Easyjet used to fly LPL-NQY and fly MAN-NQY now, so maybe, but I reckon their aircraft are well tied up for the summer.

But Flybe only flew between Southampton and Liverpool for two years or so. I can't exactly remember the year it stopped but I have a feeling that the route operated between 2005 and 2007. Eastern Airways took over the route shortly after. But as is usually the case with this part time operator, they abandoned the route cuz "they couldn't be bothered".

Regarding easyJet on MAN-SOU, I wasn't expecting any immediate announcement from the airline as I'm fully aware of the fact that their current fleet are tied up for summer 2023.

Although LPL/MAN-NQY are two totally different markets to LPL/MAN-SOU.

Eastern Airways had a SOU-NQY flight scheduled to start in summer 2019. It was on sale and bookable on their website. But surprise, surprise the route was cancelled before the first flight had even took off. Another example of a totally useless and incompetent operator.

Just very short of suitable operators these days, Wouldn't be so bad if Cross Country Trains were half decent .

It does make you wonder about the long term viability of regional flying in this country.... you would have thought Manchester - SOU would be able to sustain an airline where there is the potential for a huge time and cost saving over the train.

Eastern made an overall profit last year of 237k, on a turnover of 16m - a margin of 1.45%.

Surely there is a bigger margin to be made on a well run operation between Manchester - SOU? Flybe used to fly over 500k folk between the two cities pre Covid!

Lets face it Eastern are the most unpredictable airline who just don`t seem to be able to hack, it they chop and change on most routes and are not
an airline I would entertain or trust if I was making an important trip be it business or connecting with a cruise or long haul flight.

And still going for over 20 years - long after many of their rivals have faded away...

I've just been informed today that I am going to Liverpool for business during the coronation weekend and also on the 04 May for another event.

Another long and arduous drive from Southampton to the northwest cities of Liverpool and Manchester. But due to the fact that I have not been to either since before the pandemic I'm extremely excited about the upcoming visit.

Although a direct flight would have made the journey a lot more pleasant 😉

Started and still legally registered as Air Kilroe and formed at guess where ? Manchester Airport.
That said recent years were very much funded via Bristow and their US Parents .

Well I didn’t know that. Thanks Rutan.

Great that they made a profit, however, I wonder did they even fill half the seats? Their pricing is always off the charts. Even on DUB SOU, their pricing was up to 4 times greater than that of Emerald. Pricing that is commonly available on such routes by Emerald. Even eclipsing BACF who operate summer seasonally, argueably it's a sort of positioning flight for them but Eastern were up in the bushes. I've often checked easten for flying inside the UK and I personally would describe it as insult pricing ... Come back names like Manx Airlines (the original of the Manx brands), Suckling, or even Eurodirect who just were great at joining all the dots, though sadly that didn't list long, but they had ambition. With ATPs too.

You might want to re-read that. Making profits is how airlines survive - not joining dots. :rolleyes:

Thanks SWBKCB,
I completely understand.
However, pricing so far out of line with the competition means empty seats and on routes where they have exclusivity charging pricing so high that there are again 50% empty seats is not the route to profitability at a sustainable level. Anyway I'm sure you've got the full optics of what happens inside eastern. It's really irrelevant to my flying needs.

Blue Islands announced that they were going to run the route (in addition to Eastern) after Flybe folded in 2020, but it all went quiet.

I wonder if they'd reconsider given Eastern's lack of commitment to the route.

I'm hearing the airport had two brief closures last night, (Fri 28/29th April) causing extensive holding and at least three diverts out. Possible ATC staff shortages? can anyone confirm? Sounds like a case of cutting staff to the bone with no leeway in the system.

Bit of a strong statement when you don't even know what the cause was?