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-   -   Flybe-V1 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html)

cavokblues 22nd Mar 2022 17:56

Bean, I'm well aware FBE Realisations is the remains of the old legal entity.

But just because a new legal entity is set up does not mean it's a completely different airline. It's not a binary matter and quite often companies are said to be sold when in actual fact the old legal entity registered at companies house is liquidated with assets transferred to a new legal entity. As I said earlier, it's common place in football. I'm not sure Rangers FC fans north of the border think their club is a new club following their rescue from financial problems a decade ago.

Interesting how Lucien Farrell was registered as a director of the 'new' airline. What would someone who was so heavily involved in the previous rescue attempt of the old airline, be doing at the new airline if it's a brand new airline with no links whatsoever? They even argued in the OL appeal decision against the CAA that 'had Flybe known that the consequence of pursuing an asset purchase agreement was that it would not be able to retain its OL, it would not have chosen to pursue such a transaction in preference to an alternative form of financial reconstruction.'

They basically liquidated the old company to transfer the assets they wanted to the new company and avoid the debt. All perfectly legal. If you want to think it's a brand new company with no links whatsoever to the old company than fill your boots. I don't think it is. A company is a bit more than just a registration at companies house.

Anyway, that aside, as I said I do wish the new airline well. It's always good to see airlines succeed.

bean 22nd Mar 2022 18:22

Jesus christ. The old airline was liquiidated because Virgin needed to save themselves. Stobart who had only contributed assets simply could'nt afford amy more. So that only left Cyrus under Lucien Farrell to poor millions upon millions into a bottomless pit.
I can't believe we are here again

BA318 22nd Mar 2022 18:29


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11204141)
Jesus christ. The old airline was luquidated because Virgin needed to save themselves. Stobart who had only contributed assets simply could'nt afford amy more. So that only left Cyrus under Lucien Farrell to poor millions upon millions into a bottomless pit.
I can't believe we are here again

Keep digging!

bean 22nd Mar 2022 18:32


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11204145)
Keep digging!

Is that all you can contribute?. Do you dispute the facts. I tell yÚu what? Let's continue this pointless twaddle for another 73 pages shall we?
please enlighten me as to the dynamite information which will enlighten me? Or, be a good boy and do some research

BA318 22nd Mar 2022 18:38


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11204147)
Is that all you can contribute?. Do you dispute the facts. I tell yÚu what? Let's continue this pointless twaddle for another 73 pages shall we?

I dispute your interpretation of the facts but you donít answer the points put back. You just change the story or repeat the same incorrect, rude and badly written points.

One of the worlds leading auditors and consultants literally put in writing and you still tell people you are right. Thatís why the discussion goes on and on.

Anyway we can talk about how Flybe thinks it makes sense to go up against 19 daily flights on LHR-AMS using a twice daily Q400.

cavokblues 22nd Mar 2022 18:40

I don't understand your post about Farrell.

So he was pouring millions into a bottomless pit so had to liquidate the old airline and start afresh with a new airline with him as the registered director?

If you set up a 'new' company registered at company house, with the same name as an old airline, with the same aircraft, with the same director initially, with a lot of old flight crew, replicating some of their old routes, and then argue to the CAA that you didn't have to close down the old airline but you thought it was their preference, it's probably safe to say it's a continuation rather than a complete separate company with no links whatsoever.

I accept you might disagree. But I'm not to going to whinge again and again on the thread because people disagree with me.

bean 22nd Mar 2022 18:45

[QUOTE=BA318;11204151]I dispute your interpretation of the facts but you donít answer the points put back. You just change the story or repeat the same incorrect, rude and badly written points.

One of the worlds leading auditors and consultants literally put in writing and you still tell people you are right. Thatís why the discussion goes on and on.

Anyway we can talk about how Flybe thinks it makes sense to go up against 19 daily flights on LHR-AMS using a twice daily Q400.[/QUOTE
The EY post is advertising blurb they are making megabucks out of this administration
as far as the rest of your post goes, when Flybe was a PLC and Saad Hammad was in charge, i tried time and time and time again to direct people to the investors web pages for the full story but, nobody ever took notice.
Have a lovely day

Atlantic Explorer 22nd Mar 2022 18:48

Christ almighty, I had to check the date when I saw that list of routes announced. It’s not April 1st but it might as well be. Utter madness. There going to be a lot of money being lost in the next few weeks and months.

virginblue 22nd Mar 2022 21:12

I love this "much-loved brand"-PR stuff.

How would the public be able to follow the shenanigans of the reuscitated airline without using the "flymaybe" moniker...

Jamie2009 22nd Mar 2022 21:28

Think today went well, seems very well received on social media platforms and the comments left. I donít think the general public care if itís a reincarnation or new company, they just appear happy Flybe are back and are pleased with the offerings. Iím biased but I do think the new website also looks good.

As for the choice of routes and the doom and gloom predictionsÖÖ just wait and see. This isnít back of a fag packet planning with them plucked out of thin air. Iím sure all will become clearer with the ramping up of the business over the next few months.

BA318 22nd Mar 2022 21:39


Originally Posted by Jamie2009 (Post 11204256)
Think today went well, seems very well received on social media platforms and the comments left. I donít think the general public care if itís a reincarnation or new company, they just appear happy Flybe are back and are pleased with the offerings. Iím biased but I do think the new website also looks good.

As for the choice of routes and the doom and gloom predictionsÖÖ just wait and see. This isnít back of a fag packet planning with them plucked out of thin air. Iím sure all will become clearer with the ramping up of the business over the next few months.

I mean come on. 2 daily Q400 on LHR-AMS with no codeshares up against 19 daily BA/KLM flights with major hubs at each end not to mention the Easyjet ops to AMS from elsewhere.

Belfast ops up against Loganair and IAG.

Leeds to Heathrow with no codeshares? Who in the right mind would use that unless connecting (which will be fewer people thanks to the lack of codeshares and partnerships) ?

As for social media, searching for Flybe on Twitter tonight revels plenty of negative comments.

I understand youíre employed by them and want to be positive and I hope they do well but these routes are bizarre. Fingers crossed they decide to react quickly when they lose money and drop them sooner and try other routes.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...ith-23-routes/
A good article here highlighting the competition they are up against on a majority of their routes. A few once a week routes from Southampton and Birmingham, Belfast-Newcastle and Leeds-Heathrow are the only ones not up against others.

runway30 22nd Mar 2022 22:44


Originally Posted by Jamie2009 (Post 11204256)
Think today went well, seems very well received on social media platforms and the comments left. I donít think the general public care if itís a reincarnation or new company, they just appear happy Flybe are back and are pleased with the offerings. Iím biased but I do think the new website also looks good.

As for the choice of routes and the doom and gloom predictionsÖÖ just wait and see. This isnít back of a fag packet planning with them plucked out of thin air. Iím sure all will become clearer with the ramping up of the business over the next few months.

Just to leave behind the argument over whether this is a brand new airline or not. The advantage of starting a brand new airline is that you can start with a clean piece of paper.
Do you want to operate an aircraft with a low seat mile cost once a day or an aircraft with a higher seat mile cost four times a day. By using an aircraft with higher seat mile costs can you attract a passenger who will pay a higher fare for the convenience of a choice of four flights a day?
The problem with old flybe was that fixed costs plus variable costs was less than total revenue therefore you made a loss. The argument for new flybe is that with your clean piece of paper you have an opportunity to reduce fixed costs and therefore bring total costs below total revenue and make a profit.
The problem I have with this is that on the chosen routes they will still be selling a lot of seats where marginal revenue is less than marginal cost and therefore, even with the lower fixed costs, total revenue will be less than total costs. We will see.
Now moving on to Heathrow. Your seat mile costs are greater than your competitor but you are offering your customer less convenience because you offer lower frequency and more difficult connections. How is it ever going to work?

virginblue 22nd Mar 2022 22:51

As for the much ridiculed LHR plans - what is status of Flybe's Mk. I LHR slots? They were apparently grandfathered by Flybe but subject to a legal dispute. Did they end up with Flybe Mk. II?

As far as LHR-AMS is concerned, I suppose they are targeting a similar market as Mk I did with their LHR-EDI/MAN flights. Back then, they were also competing with a competitor offering much more departures but apparenlly saw a nichr for themselves..

runway30 22nd Mar 2022 23:04


Originally Posted by virginblue (Post 11204286)
As for the much ridiculed LHR plans - what is status of Flybe's Mk. I LHR slots? They were apparently grandfathered by Flybe but subject to a legal dispute. Did they end up with Flybe Mk. II?

As far as LHR-AMS is concerned, I suppose they are targeting a similar market as Mk I did with their LHR-EDI/MAN flights. Back then, they were also competing with a competitor offering much more departures but apparenlly saw a nichr for themselves..

The niche is that you sell seats where the marginal revenue is below marginal cost. Hence my jibe in case any of you missed it before, they invented the be-low cost airline. I have very sad news for those airline managers who can't add up, it doesn't work, give up now.

cavokblues 23rd Mar 2022 06:24


Originally Posted by virginblue (Post 11204286)
As for the much ridiculed LHR plans - what is status of Flybe's Mk. I LHR slots? They were apparently grandfathered by Flybe but subject to a legal dispute. Did they end up with Flybe Mk. II?.

They lost grandfathering rights on the slots when they lost their appeal against the old OL being withdrawn. TBH, I'm not sure who ultimately owns the new slots they're using.

virginblue 23rd Mar 2022 09:58


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 11204290)
The niche is that you sell seats where the marginal revenue is below marginal cost. Hence my jibe in case any of you missed it before, they invented the be-low cost airline. I have very sad news for those airline managers who can't add up, it doesn't work, give up now.

Sure. I was not insinuating that they have discovered a cash cow, but was merely hinting at the fact that they sort of replicate the approach Mk I took at LHR - successful or not.

What frequencies did BMI offer on AMS-LHR? They were also a third force on the route that had to focus on P2P to a much greater extent than KL or BA.

CaptainActor 23rd Mar 2022 10:11

I really hope its a success
 
It is great that some of the workforce get their jobs back.

The concerns I have are rising fuel costs having adverse ramifications for profit per passenger. Competition from Emerald (if they get aggressive), And just a personal opinion, reputation. I for one would not have re-launched with the name flybe. It did not have a great reputation by the time it fell. And the stigma of going under.

tictack67 23rd Mar 2022 10:34


Originally Posted by virginblue (Post 11204475)
.

What frequencies did BMI offer on AMS-LHR? They were also a third force on the route that had to focus on P2P to a much greater extent than KL or BA.

BMI had 8 services a day to Amsterdam, believe you ne they were not just p2p they codeshared and had groups going on codeshares to Asia from Ams with Asiana.

BA318 23rd Mar 2022 10:59

And BMI often made a loss. They did have Star Alliance membership which would help because youíd be more inclined to use them if you could earn points.


virginblue 23rd Mar 2022 11:37


Originally Posted by tictack67 (Post 11204500)
BMI had 8 services a day to Amsterdam, believe you ne they were not just p2p they codeshared and had groups going on codeshares to Asia from Ams with Asiana.

Sure. I did not say "just P2P", I said they had to rely on P2P to a greater extent than the incumbents because of their smaller network.

Anyway, BMI had to fill 1.200 seats a day, not just 150 like Flybe. I am not saying that the idea is brilliant or even feasible, but obviously Flybe hopes that they can carve out a niche in what is one of the busiest city pairs in Europe. Which will, probably, depend on things like pricing - not just by looking at the overall fare bucket, but also at the availability of cheapter tickets booked a short notice etc. etc. What I find more perplexing is a route like LBA-LHR.


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