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-   -   Flybe-V1 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html)

True Blue 26th Dec 2021 10:22


Originally Posted by Local Variation (Post 11160971)
As frequent domestic flyer for business, I don't care one jot on the price nor that it's a jet. And from what I witnessed on Flybe Mk1, very many were in the same boat, all carrying laptop bags.

They could have doubled my fare price BHX/EMA to BHD and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Still peanuts in the grand scheme of things for a business passenger.

But I do need frequency and I do need the right times of day. Train, BHX/EMA to GLA? yeah right. BFS, nope as well, its needs to be BHD.

So Local Variation, what is wrong with Bfs? Come March, when the new Flybe might be starting. Ezy has 4/5 flights a day Bfs - Bhx at good times. And Bfs isn't, contrary to what some might think, off the end of the earth. How will Flybe compete with that? When Flybe operated Bhd - Bhx before they collapsed, Ezy had nowhere near the frequency they have now. It will be a challenge for them I think.

Local Variation 26th Dec 2021 10:33

[QUOTE=inOban;11160986]People always compare last-minute, anytime train fares with prebooked non flexible air fares. Just now you can buy a non-flexible train ticket from Birmingham to Edinburgh on 13th January for between £26.20 and a bit over £40, depending on the time of day. If you want just over 4 hours uninterrupted time to work on that business plan, then 1st class is available./QUOTE]

I can only speak for myself. But the example you give is dead time to me as a business passenger.

I am not paid to sit on a domestic travel service aka a train, for 4 hours plus, noddying around on my laptop trying to look busy.

I will also now need to book an overnight hotel in GLA to re-capture this wasted travel time, to see the Customers that justified the trip in the first place........and then the same trip back doing my expenses on the train.

Its not about direct cost, it's all about time.

I do appreciate that many other passengers use the same services as me for non-business reasons btw. And their needs differ to mine and are of equal importance to them, eg cost.


inOban 26th Dec 2021 12:20

As a matter of interest, when you have a business day in Glasgow, what time would be your first appointment, and what time would you expect to leave home for your flight?

SWBKCB 26th Dec 2021 12:58


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11160963)
What on earth are you talking about
No money is owed to venture capitalists
So much ignorance on this thread

Just remind us all who the major shareholder is? They haven't given money to BE to go away and play planes

bean 26th Dec 2021 13:30


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 11161046)
Just remind us all who the major shareholder is? They haven't given money to BE to go away and play planes

There is only 0ne share holder and like all share holders in all companys they want a return on their investment.
Your last two posts are nonsencical

BA318 26th Dec 2021 14:17


Originally Posted by bean (Post 11161049)
There is only 0ne share holder and like all share holders in all companys they want a return on their investment.
Your last two posts are nonsencical

While you are correct no money is owed. We all know how it works. This is a venture capitalist firm which is bankrolling Flybe with the aim of making a nice profit when they sell it on. They are not pouring this cash in for the fun of it. They are expecting a healthy return on their investment sooner rather than later if media reports are to be believed.

Jamie2009 26th Dec 2021 15:01


Originally Posted by BA318 (Post 11161062)
While you are correct no money is owed. We all know how it works. This is a venture capitalist firm which is bankrolling Flybe with the aim of making a nice profit when they sell it on. They are not pouring this cash in for the fun of it. They are expecting a healthy return on their investment sooner rather than later if media reports are to be believed.

Doesnít anyone who owns or part owns a business want a return on their investment? Donít they make more money if itís very successful which is a great motivator to be a success. Are the shareholders of easyjet happy at losing a billion a year or having their holding diluted in cash raises as in other airlines?


SWBKCB 26th Dec 2021 15:16


Originally Posted by Jamie2009 (Post 11161073)
Doesnít anyone who owns or part owns a business want a return on their investment? Donít they make more money if itís very successful which is a great motivator to be a success. Are the shareholders of easyjet happy at losing a billion a year or having their holding diluted in cash raises as in other airlines?

easyJet have previously made money, Flybe2 haven't so they are swimming in different ponds.

Any money they haven't earned is debt, look where the money went from Flybe1

davidjohnson6 26th Dec 2021 15:27

Flybe have a single shareholder who has well over 50.1% of the shares and thus has complete control. Pension funds each holding maybe 1% of the shares of a large company tend to just sell shares of companies that are underperforming - it's rarely worth their time to become activist investors and start sacking directors. Venture capital firms will be initially supportive if they feel directors need a bit of help and they will provide that help, but ultimately are not known for being forgiving - instead they are rather more activist - if the company doesn't do well, directors can find themselves threatened with "either you resign for personal reasons or we will call an EGM and force you out in a very public way". Think Lord Sugar on The Apprentice
Easyjet has a broadly diversified shareholder base. Stelios as the largest shareholder owns well under 50% of the shares. Thus, no investor has complete control. The directors therefore have greater control of the company as it becomes harder for individual shareholders to persuade enough other shareholders to combine to create opposition over 50% to what the directors propose

If Flybe flops in spring / summer 2022, there is likely to be swift and unambiguous action by the shareholder against the directors.

BA318 26th Dec 2021 16:00


Originally Posted by Jamie2009 (Post 11161073)
Doesnít anyone who owns or part owns a business want a return on their investment? Donít they make more money if itís very successful which is a great motivator to be a success. Are the shareholders of easyjet happy at losing a billion a year or having their holding diluted in cash raises as in other airlines?

Different sectors have different aims and styles. Typically pension funds for example take a long term view. VC firms on the other usually take a much shorter term view and are looking for a sale much earlier on. And as David says above, itís much easier for a shareholder who has the majority to flex their wishes unlike in other carriers like Easyjet, BA etc.

Skipness One Foxtrot 26th Dec 2021 16:54

Good points on the need for high cost high frequency fares for business BUT to balance the books they also the rest of the volume to fill 78 seats on leisure and lower end fares, which EZY will have already nabbed. Hence you could operate 4 x daily trunk routes on the Q400 with 20% load factors and high fares, then you'd be Eastern and niche. Flybe were never as high cost as T3 and they did chase volume to keep fares down. Right now I can't see them getting the lower fares volume until easyJet give up, if at all. So there is a need as stated above, but not sure how it gets met with EZY still in market. The competitor leaving is a dependency to any profitability IMHO.

EI-BUD 26th Dec 2021 17:56

Alot of valid commentary above. A few points I'd make. The example of the business traveller who wants frequency above price, this is fine but the issue is currently that their is a drastic reduction in business travellers, prob a decline in excess of 75% in general. On top of this given the challenge on internation routes particularly at this time makes domestic flying much more attractive to easyJet, so they'll be happy to keep flying said routes are low returns. In my opinion Flybe need to avoid getting into the low cost airline space, it's insane. easyJet will provide flights early morning say after 4pm and after 6pm, which covers most requirements of the core market. This is generally what they do and between morning flying and late afternoon a leisure route will be flown that is not time sensitive.

Flybe needs to carve a space in the market at scale to make its cost base effective yet avoiding low cost airline routes. I think there is a wide range of international routes that are too think for a jet yet have demand especially from Birmingham, some from Manchester and others from regional airports by exception. They will come back in time however, to start flying before summer I can't see it.

cuthere 26th Dec 2021 18:16


Originally Posted by True Blue (Post 11160994)
So Local Variation, what is wrong with Bfs?

Having arrived at NIís ďinternationalĒ gateway on Weds last, Iíll assume this question is either sarcasm, or rhetorical (though the use of a ? suggests otherwise).

Having been herded off the Bristol flight through a completely random door (like oneís own front door), into a dark, dank corridor, onward to a bag collection area which is likely older than meÖÖ

I look forward warmly to Emerald and FlyBe MkII making business travel to from the U.K. from a decent airport the pleasure it once was. Good luck!

BHX5DME 26th Dec 2021 22:35

. They will come back in time however, to start flying before summer I can't see it.[/QUOTE]

They should be flying well before the Summer !

Harold77 27th Dec 2021 01:21

I reckon before 2022 is out or early 2023 Flybe could be serving Teesside. I say this because I reckon there is scope for some routes that would need an aircraft with bigger capacity than 50 but less than a large 150 seat airliner. Flybe's 78 seat capacity would fit this market really well for frequent regular services with better cost units per seat compared to lower capacity aircraft.

cavokblues 27th Dec 2021 07:38


Originally Posted by Harold77 (Post 11161203)
I reckon before 2022 is out or early 2023 Flybe could be serving Teesside. I say this because I reckon there is scope for some routes that would need an aircraft with bigger capacity than 50 but less than a large 150 seat airliner. Flybe's 78 seat capacity would fit this market really well for frequent regular services with better cost units per seat compared to lower capacity aircraft.

I think there are probably far larger and more lucrative markets to target.

Teeside can barely support a London service. Flybe won't want to compete with KLM on Amsterdam. I can't see any room on Dublin with Loganair there and I'm not sure any returns would make the fight worthwhile. There is usually a reason why if Ryanair aren't operating a Dublin service from a UK airport.....

I genuinely struggle to see any suitable potential routes which might make any money whatsoever for an airline like Flybe from Teeside.

Citrine 27th Dec 2021 09:28

Folk need to stop speculating about routes and wait and see. I mean the way the whole industry is going cyras might just pull the plug completely.

Citrine 27th Dec 2021 09:29

I mean virgin did in march !!

Harold77 27th Dec 2021 09:54


Originally Posted by cavokblues (Post 11161260)
I think there are probably far larger and more lucrative markets to target.

Teeside can barely support a London service. Flybe won't want to compete with KLM on Amsterdam. I can't see any room on Dublin with Loganair there and I'm not sure any returns would make the fight worthwhile. There is usually a reason why if Ryanair aren't operating a Dublin service from a UK airport.....

I genuinely struggle to see any suitable potential routes which might make any money whatsoever for an airline like Flybe from Teeside.

Teesside can support a London service and has done very well in the past. The current situation is none of the air industry making. Covid has knocked the bottom out of everywhere, foreign travel decimated, offices working from home etc.

We just need to see Covid restrictions removed, freer travel allowed and everything getting back to normal. Only once things have returned to normal then comparisons can be made.

BHX5DME 27th Dec 2021 11:06


Originally Posted by Harold77 (Post 11161302)
Teesside can support a London service and has done very well in the past. The current situation is none of the air industry making. Covid has knocked the bottom out of everywhere, foreign travel decimated, offices working from home etc.

We just need to see Covid restrictions removed, freer travel allowed and everything getting back to normal. Only once things have returned to normal then comparisons can be made.

Teeside wont be in FlyBe2's plans at all in my opinion, in fact I can only see BHX in the short to medium term.


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