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-   -   Flybe-9 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599822-flybe-9-a.html)

toon22 14th Nov 2020 17:46

Flybe collapse
 

Originally Posted by Gurnard (Post 10926550)
Absolutely not so. COVID was having no effect upon Flybe in early March and in the previous months. COVID only began to bite after the collapse of Flybe. Those who are connecting Flybe's failure with COVID are putting up a smoke screen. You are correct to point to the financial figures instead.

Far from it. By the end of February Ď20 forward bookings were collapsing (just look at any media for that week) and cash was running out. The credit card merchants were withholding cash and the outlook became so bad because of COVID that the shareholders refused to inject more funds and the airline foundered. It would have gone anyway but COVID was the straw that broke the camelís back.

JSCL 14th Nov 2020 17:51


Originally Posted by toon22 (Post 10926592)
Far from it. By the end of February Ď20 forward bookings were collapsing (just look at any media for that week) and cash was running out. The credit card merchants were withholding cash and the outlook became so bad because of COVID that the shareholders refused to inject more funds and the airline foundered. It would have gone anyway but COVID was the straw that broke the camelís back.

Means testing, however. If Flybe was so vulnerable to the very first ripple, it was clearly in a very bad place.

see below for timeline.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....84c87081e.jpeg

ATNotts 14th Nov 2020 17:55


Originally Posted by LGS6753 (Post 10926465)
Correction - it's the unpleasant and unacceptable face of Government intervention in capitalism.

Wrong; the only involvement that government has had in pre-packs is allowing them in the first place, and that I believe pre-dates the Tory governments of 2010 onwards. It is in fact a money making tool employed by accountancy firms.

LGS6753 14th Nov 2020 19:49


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10926600)
Wrong; the only involvement that government has had in pre-packs is allowing them in the first place, and that I believe pre-dates the Tory governments of 2010 onwards. It is in fact a money making tool employed by accountancy firms.

Precisely - the Government allowed pre-packs to exist = intervention.
Under a true capitalist system, bankrupt companies would go to the wall.

ATNotts 14th Nov 2020 19:57


Originally Posted by LGS6753 (Post 10926652)
Precisely - the Government allowed pre-packs to exist = intervention.
Under a true capitalist system, bankrupt companies would go to the wall.

Which means that the 'gold standard' for capitalism, the USA, fails at about the same hurdle as the UK with their Chapter 11 bankruptcy rules.

My former employer refuse credit to any phoenix company that rose out of a pre-pack until the old debt was paid, and quite right too!

LGS6753 14th Nov 2020 20:04


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10926655)
Which means that the 'gold standard' for capitalism, the USA, fails at about the same hurdle as the UK with their Chapter 11 bankruptcy rules.

My former employer refuse credit to any phoenix company that rose out of a pre-pack until the old debt was paid, and quite right too!

Yes - Chapter 11 is an abomination that has kept far too many zombie companies alive to the detriment of healthy, better-managed competitors. In my working life, I would never extend credit to any business that had entered into a CVA - it was usually only a matter of time before they were looking for another one.
My approach p!ssed off a number of my sales staff though!

AirportPlanner1 14th Nov 2020 22:01


Originally Posted by Gurnard (Post 10926550)
Absolutely not so. COVID was having no effect upon Flybe in early March and in the previous months. COVID only began to bite after the collapse of Flybe. Those who are connecting Flybe's failure with COVID are putting up a smoke screen. You are correct to point to the financial figures instead.

Having flown with BE in late Feb I can assure you COVID absolutely was biting. In fact on my flight outbound with EZY I had a whole row to myself (the 6 seats). Which is pretty remarkable on an end-of-week northbound to EDI.

Cazza_fly 15th Nov 2020 04:40


Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1 (Post 10926711)
Having flown with BE in late Feb I can assure you COVID absolutely was biting. In fact on my flight outbound with EZY I had a whole row to myself (the 6 seats). Which is pretty remarkable on an end-of-week northbound to EDI.

it must have been around for years then. I've had plenty of flights on EZY northbound to EDI over the years, with practically half a cabin to myself. Particularly in February with the usual more bleak winter months between January and March for UK / Western European carriers.

ATNotts 15th Nov 2020 07:38


Originally Posted by LGS6753 (Post 10926662)
Yes - Chapter 11 is an abomination that has kept far too many zombie companies alive to the detriment of healthy, better-managed competitors. In my working life, I would never extend credit to any business that had entered into a CVA - it was usually only a matter of time before they were looking for another one.
My approach p!ssed off a number of my sales staff though!

Indeed, but sales people can't (couldn't) see beyond the sale, and the bonus they could earn for closing it. It never occurs to most of them that a sale is only a sale when it's paid for. One former colleague used to judge the credit worthiness of a business on how big a car was in the managing director's parking space!! Probably good reason why sales people should never be let loose with the purse strings of a business.

Snr 15th Nov 2020 07:53


Originally Posted by Gurnard (Post 10926550)
Absolutely not so. COVID was having no effect upon Flybe in early March and in the previous months. COVID only began to bite after the collapse of Flybe. Those who are connecting Flybe's failure with COVID are putting up a smoke screen. You are correct to point to the financial figures instead.

Bookings were absolutely down in January and February. Loads were reducing by the week before the collapse. The biggest factor in the ultimate demise was Virgin backtracking on investing more money so they could focus on keeping mainline alive.

We all know Flybe was failing and previous management were running it into the ground, but to say Covid didn't have an impact is ludicrous.

AirportPlanner1 15th Nov 2020 08:53


Originally Posted by Cazza_fly (Post 10926804)
it must have been around for years then. I've had plenty of flights on EZY northbound to EDI over the years, with practically half a cabin to myself. Particularly in February with the usual more bleak winter months between January and March for UK / Western European carriers.

Not sure if youíre comparing like with like or the same days but that level of emptiness at that time was highly unusual.

MARK 101 15th Nov 2020 09:33


Originally Posted by LGS6753 (Post 10926662)
Yes - Chapter 11 is an abomination that has kept far too many zombie companies alive to the detriment of healthy, better-managed competitors. In my working life, I would never extend credit to any business that had entered into a CVA - it was usually only a matter of time before they were looking for another one.
My approach p!ssed off a number of my sales staff though!

Agree that this is capitalism at its worst, but also remember there's a lot of people still in work with companies resurrecting them selves. Its easy to forget that for ordinary people its jobs that matter, not the corrupt system. I am sure if Flybe do return it will be a welcome jobs boost to an industry in terminal decline

ATNotts 15th Nov 2020 09:45


Originally Posted by MARK 101 (Post 10926937)
Agree that this is capitalism at its worst, but also remember there's a lot of people still in work with companies resurrecting them selves. Its easy to forget that for ordinary people its jobs that matter, not the corrupt system. I am sure if Flybe do return it will be a welcome jobs boost to an industry in terminal decline

Yes, but the collateral damage is for the suppliers that haven't been paid, and the jobs lost there as a result.

LGS6753 15th Nov 2020 11:01


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10926953)
Yes, but the collateral damage is for the suppliers that haven't been paid, and the jobs lost there as a result.

To say nothing of the viable new entrants denied entry or growth by known brands unfairly defending their market share.

southside bobby 15th Nov 2020 11:32

An unbeknown was "Flybe" bid recently for the EIN Regional flying contract.

anothertyke 16th Nov 2020 09:32


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10926953)
Yes, but the collateral damage is for the suppliers that haven't been paid, and the jobs lost there as a result.

But how would that be different if Chapter 11 and its equivalents didn't exist? Arguably that situation would be worse because the system would be even less stable. I presume at the moment it's an open market, anyone can negotiate for leases on Q-400s, ATRs etc, anyone can go to Birmingham and Manchester and ask for slots, set about hiring, do the 1001 things which need to be done to set up. Loganair and Eastern are completely free to establish a new network if they want to. If a group wants to create Resurrection Airways, then provided they don't have any kind of asymmetric market advantage, inside tracks, why not? They may be crazy, but that's the market.

Obviously the criminal law is there to deal with directors who mislead the market, engage in insider trading etc. But provided there is no criminal behaviour, how far do you go down the line of barring people from paying into ATOL, entering the market and for how long?

RogueOne 16th Nov 2020 16:39

hashtag thread drift....

airsouthwest 22nd Nov 2020 23:56


Originally Posted by Snr (Post 10926863)
Bookings were absolutely down in January and February. Loads were reducing by the week before the collapse. The biggest factor in the ultimate demise was Virgin backtracking on investing more money so they could focus on keeping mainline alive.

We all know Flybe was failing and previous management were running it into the ground, but to say Covid didn't have an impact is ludicrous.

*Fact Check* Virgin did not pull out of investing more money. Stobart pulled out investing anymore. Virgin & Cyprus refused to put any more money than their share. Cyprus tried to get a new AOC but didn't have enough time. Please be careful what you post.

Flybe was in a weak position from COW time, FAS might still be going if she had not made the stupid decision to merge it back with Flybe(the airline). I agree Covid was the final nail, but COW poor leadership was the beginning of the end. I came back to Flybe in 2018 after a few months away and it was like a different company and even back then you could tell it was heading towards going bust. I didn't stay with the company very long to say the least.

Expressflight 23rd Nov 2020 07:28

The name you're looking for is Cyrus not Cyprus.

Sandy78 23rd Nov 2020 22:05

*Fact Check* It's all in black and white - Companies House, Connect Airways Limited - (09 Nov 2020 Statement of administrator's proposal) specifically para 3 on page 12.


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