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Scottie Dog 28th Feb 2018 09:05

De-icing equipment
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this once again down to the handling agents, or is it a pooled set of equipment?

Maybe it's time for the monkeys to be paid to invest in better equipment.

LAX_LHR 28th Feb 2018 09:20

Spend money at Manchester?! Now you really are living in dreamworld!

MANFOD 28th Feb 2018 09:25

De-icing equipment

Same thing happened to us when we flew to Dubai in January on the lunchtime EK. Temperature was a few degrees above freezing but our expected 10 minute delay due late inbound turned into 1 hour 10 minutes. No explanation given at first until through the a/c window I saw 1 guy and his truck painstakingly working his way round the a/c. Fortunately we had plenty of time for our connection and 30 minutes was made up in flight. A couple waiting anxiously to disembark at Dubai were hoping to catch what would have been a tight connection anyway to Bali. With the temperature unlikely to get above freezing, I wonder how today's EK flights will fare.

Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?

Scottie Dog 28th Feb 2018 09:46

Council Van

From your experience are you able to confirm whether the de-icing is the airport authority's responsibility or that of the handling agent?

Airfrance7 28th Feb 2018 09:52

Out of interest what De-Icing equipment is used for the EK A380 at BHX, LGW and LHR. And do they have similar delays?

CCGE29 28th Feb 2018 10:56

Airline Services and Swissport provide de-icing at Manchester. Airline Services does EK. They actually have at least three new de-icers this year, I assume the problem is lack of staff rather than lack of trucks.

CCGE29 28th Feb 2018 12:16

So far this morning MAN has taken 3 div's


QR017 DOH-DUB 788 A7BDB
CO682 LCA-DUB 319 5BDCU
LH976 FRA-DUB 320N DAINH

MANFOD 28th Feb 2018 12:29

I believe SAS 535 came here as well.

Suzeman 28th Feb 2018 12:38


Just checked and EK22 sch. departure 08.45 is showing final boarding. Does de-icing only start when all pax and freight on board and then is subject to wait for de-icing equipment?
Off blocks 1031 and dep c1045 according to FR24. At the same time the next A380 was on finals, so just time to fill that shiny new deicing rig up. ;) And now a lot of snow coming down as another of the showers has escaped over the Pennines.

Passengers now generally expect low fares and airlines screw the agents (and airports) down in terms of what they are prepared to pay. As a result resources are cut to the bone and are on the edge even in "normal" conditions, so when things go wrong, as it does quite often, it all goes tits-up very quickly. In addition there is little motivation for many staff to go that "extra mile" as their working conditions are often at minimum rates and unsociable hours. And it's not only in aviation it happens - it is also a feature of many other industries nowadays as is becoming increasingly obvious.

The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ...:} But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport".

My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.

Meanwhile, many MAN departures are getting away quite reasonably despite the snow and increasing wind-speeds. And in shocking news, MAN has taken a few diversions from DUB today :eek:


Spend money at Manchester?! Now you really are living in dreamworld!
Presumably a tongue in cheek comment LAX considering the current capital expenditure. And I wonder what the users (ie airlines) view would be of the capital spend required for any remote de-icing area along with all the required environmental requirements, never mind where on the site you would put it....? I know what their views were 20 years ago when it was discussed then and it should come as no surprise that it was never followed through.

pholling 28th Feb 2018 13:46


Originally Posted by Suzeman (Post 10068055)
...

The airlines have their own agreements with the Handling Agents (which the Airport is told is nothing to do with them) which presumably have some minimum service standards written in. Don't know if the Handling Agents have to pay the airlines if they don't meet them and I suppose you can argue that they can always change agents if there is consistent bad performance ...:} But isn't that often a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire? Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything, but always gets the rubbish thrown at them by the travelling public as "I had a c*ap experience at Manchester Airport".

My guess is that other airports are also having problems with de-icing this am. DUB seems to be particularly badly affected although it has been snowing on and off there since the early hours and I guess snow clearance of manoeuvring area is also a major issue.

....

Except if MAG wanted they could centralise the de-icing under the airport's responsibility. This on of the examples were it is acknowledged that good operational cases can be made for removing the competition. That being said, they would still have to staff the facilities to meet the demand, which is difficult when you have very irregular snowfall from one year to the next. We get roughly the same amount each year, with some totals being more than others, but timing can vary by a few months. Not a problem in a place where they regularly get snowfall all winter.

Q: Since the de-icing is run by fewer companies do they contract with them directly or via the handling agents? Depending on the number of layers between the user and the provider they can end up almost unaccountable for failures.

Mr A Tis 28th Feb 2018 13:51


Meanwhile the Airport is powerless to do anything,
Not true. The Airport licence the handling agents to operate. They can, and do, monitor their performance.
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.

MA can act if it wants to.

wools 28th Feb 2018 14:28

It is not those GHA's such as Swissport/Airline Services that do provide de-icing but those that do not, Menzies, Dnata etc., or self handling carriers such as Jet2. It is down to cost!!










MAG could always just insist as part of Licence that they have to provide for their customers.

Airfrance7 28th Feb 2018 15:09


Originally Posted by Council Van (Post 10067726)
I bet the Emirate's crew were less amused than we were as we taxied in last night. It was quite funny to see one truck pointlessly attempting to de/ant-ice the A380 in falling snow no doubt taking longer to clear the whole aircraft than the actual hold over time!

I see they finally got away about 1am.

Hopefully PAX were not stuck on the Aircraft whilst De-Icing....!

Airfrance7 28th Feb 2018 16:05


Originally Posted by Council Van (Post 10068235)
No pointing de/anti icing if you have no pax on board in falling snow. The hold over time clock is ticking as soon as they start the process, I think our ops manual came up with a figure of about 45 minis in last nights conditions.

Assuming PAX/Crew boarded Aircraft for a 20:35 departure then they were onboard for a hell of a long time last night.

750XL 28th Feb 2018 16:35

It's SOP not to de-ice until all equipment is off the aircraft, including steps/airbridge.

Adola69 28th Feb 2018 17:02

This De-icing saga does not just raise its head during Snow conditions. Any days where temp fall close to freezing will give rise for the requirement to de-ice airframes, as well as runway / taxiway surfaces.

So during a normal winter period, there will be many times where this becomes necessary, so the point that "this doesn't happen very often" is quite incorrect. Yes snow is not all that frequent but Ice and low temps are quite the norm for a fair few prolonged periods.

I'm sure other airfields go through the same scenario, but with Man being in 3rd position in the UK with regard to movement numbers, surely something better could be brought in, especially seeing we are in the FROZEN NORTH or so those darn sarf would have us believe?

Also, having all that airframe de-icing fluid sloshing over the stands, can lead to "Slippery when Wet" conditions for ground personnel, whereas surface de-icing fluid does not. Plus, on the GREEN front, a dedicated area can give rise to the contained drainage of the chemical and then its re-use, after filtration has taken place, thus saving money in the long term with better overall performance!

Much to mull over me thinks for the future? There again much mulling has taken place previously with little action, so may the Farse be with you !:uhoh:

Travel Agent 28th Feb 2018 17:56

Thomas Cook to re-introduce Jamaica for Summer 2019 with weekly Monday flight to Montego Bay. On sale tomorrow

HH6702 28th Feb 2018 18:32

Is TCX just putting long haul routes on sale tomorrow or is European routes on sale also

Suzeman 28th Feb 2018 19:11


Except if MAG wanted they could centralise the de-icing under the airport's responsibility. This on of the examples were it is acknowledged that good operational cases can be made for removing the competition.
But would the airlines agree to that and the associated costs? That would have to be sorted before the Airport applied to the CAA for an exemption to limit that aspect of handling, otherwise there will be hearings etc and it will take an age when everyone probably has higher priorities?

Don't know what the relations between agents, airlines and airport is like nowadays, but I do wonder. Has the once much vaunted concept of ACDM (Airport Collaborative Decision Making) been introduced at MAN yet?

Anyway, most flights seem to have been getting away with small delays today except when there was a SNOCLO for about an hour in mid afternoon after a very heavy snow shower, so credit where credit is due.


Not true. The Airport licence the handling agents to operate. They can, and do, monitor their performance.
Last year, one of the agents were having to meet weekly with MA to discuss their performance levels, where licence withdrawal was a possibility.

MA can act if it wants to.
Thanks Mr A Tis - well something seems to have changed for the better then. However, even after all this monitoring and hats on interviews with no biscuits, we still hear of all sorts of shortcomings, so it makes me wonder about the performance standards that are acceptable nowadays.

Dct_Mopas 1st Mar 2018 10:20

Over at LPL the de-icing is nothing to do with the handling agents. It’s all centrally controlled and works really well, obviously it’s a lot smaller scale than MAN and it doesn't help when it takes 4 hours to clear the runway (like this week).

At most major European airports the de-ice process is seamless. You taxi out and near the runway holding point normally 2 de-ice rigs are waiting to de-ice whilst you keep engines running. Maximises hold over times with the aircraft then ready for an immediate departure. Wouldn’t be too much effort by MAN to sort something similar, even Madrid has this process and it’s rarely used. Just such a waste of time/resource when the de-ice rigs have to drive around the airport from aircraft to aircraft, with the rig operator mounting/dismounting the boom box.


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