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-   -   Manchester-2 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599775-manchester-2-a.html)

Mr A Tis 20th Sep 2017 21:21

LAX_LHR Try 15 minutes for a marshaller + 10 minutes for an airbridge + 50 minutes for bags & you are the only arrival.

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 21:46

A queue results from a system's failure to cope with the demand on offer.,,,,,,Whether it be a supermarket checkout, a motorway, or one of the multitude of scenarios at EGCC, or any other airport.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 21:51

I wouldn't know as its never really happened to me (travel too many times to mention but longest wait for bags at MAN has been about 45 minutes on very few occasions. Unless I'm just 'lucky' nearly every single time I fly, in which case I must really buy a lotto ticket!)

Honestly hand on heart never had to wait for a marsheller, jetbridge or steps have always been there within 5 minutes. Not saying iyour events dont happen as I'm certain they do from time to time, but, apart from the long depressing walk down B pier at T1 or the naff domestic arrivals corridor in T3, that's about as bad as it gets for me.

Last night I was one of 4(?) arrivals (may have been a 5th but didn't read the boards properly) and it took me no more than 35 minutes from arriving on stand to getting outside arrivals. 5 or so minutes of that was getting the steps attached, 7 or so minutes walking down B pier, 8 minutes at Border, 10 minutes for bags and then the last few minutes walking out of baggage.

Like I say, that may make me a MAN apologist, but I can only report my own personal experiences. I know the actual terminal space is a depressing, crampt and no longer fit for modern day passengers, but as we know MAN are working on that, as we know how long it takes for infrastructure projects to get moving in the UK (look at LHR T5, the late 1980's was when that was first put for discussion to the public!).

MAN is far from perfect, I know, you know and we all know. But, it does the job and with growing passenger numbers, it's clearly doing something right, as if this forum was indicative of the issues, passenger numbers would be falling with the amout of people opting to fly from elsewhere.

LAX_LHR 20th Sep 2017 21:55

Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 9898501)
A queue results from a system's failure to cope with the demand on offer.,,,,,,Whether it be a supermarket checkout, a motorway, or one of the multitude of scenarios at EGCC, or any other airport.

But how do you deal with that issue? You say it's a failure, but, how would you process say, the 615 passengers coming off the Emirates A380 in the evening, without a queue forming? Basing that the 615 could all be couples as an example, that's 306-ish 'travelling parties'. Do you have 306 border desks, all manned and ready to receive, as that's the only way to stop a queue forming and thus, 'a failiure'?

So, it's inevitable that a queue will form. and completely inconceivable that you can prevent a queue forming in such a scenario. Even if you staggered and held people back, all you are doing is pushing the queue to somewhere else....

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 22:07

If an A388 arrival is expected, then every possible resource should be mustered to process the passenger load as quickly as can be achieved. ACDM should provide the advance warning that an influx of inbound bods is imminent. The simultaneous arrival of large numbers of pax is not a new phenomenon.......It was identified as an issue when the 747-100s first started operating about 45 years ago.

mickyman 20th Sep 2017 22:09

People are like sheep,one has a minor issue with a delay (because obviously THEY are in a hurry and THEY are so important) and everyone jumps on it.People think they can moan about everything instead of just chilling and waiting their turn.The internet is the perfect vessel for these moaners - one of its faults is that it lets anybody 'start a fight' so to speak.
From my own experience of Manchester I can say I have never had much of a delay at any stage of progressing through it at all times of the day and night - indeed the only delay I have had recently was at Stansted getting through control - but I made my flight so everything was okay.In fact the only reason TOO moan is if you miss your flight - everything else is just piffle by people who spend their whole life moaning and can never be satisfied.

ZOOKER 20th Sep 2017 22:56

Around the late 1980s, a 'ground-breaking' system was installed at EGCC called 'FMCS'. This provided information about the progress of individual flights to and from the airport, and this data was routinely available to all interested parties. I believe passenger loadings were included in the data that was routinely transmitted.
Yet, a quarter of a century later, EGCC is still 'behind the drag curve' in respect of handling a/c and pax.

How can this be?

mickyman 20th Sep 2017 23:17


...because 'PROGRESS' isnt a lot of the time in this day and age - the thought that everything gets better and we live in a progressive age is to be scientific about it - BOLLOX !

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 02:37

Originally Posted by ZOOKER (Post 9898523)
If an A388 arrival is expected, then every possible resource should be mustered to process the passenger load as quickly as can be achieved. ACDM should provide the advance warning that an influx of inbound bods is imminent. The simultaneous arrival of large numbers of pax is not a new phenomenon.......It was identified as an issue when the 747-100s first started operating about 45 years ago.

But that's the crux isn't it. You originally stated that a queue is formed by a failiure to cope with demand.

So, let's take that A380 scenario again, with 615 pax, and assuming all pax travelling in 2's so 306-308-ish travelling parties. They all disembark at the 'same time' (obviously via regular 2 door flow) and border force have been informed, so they open all 12 desks (let's just ignore the e-gates for now as we know some people can't use them for various reasons and I think it's 12 desks, but can't remember). Space is limited at any airport, doesn't matter if that Singapore Changi or Doncaster airport.

That means there is still going to be a queue of 25.5 people at each desk, which will still give the image of a large queue. Then what if the LH2500 arrives, the LH947, the LS901 etc etc.

So, the question then goes back to 'what do people expect'. You have informed of the volume, you have opened every desk, you are doing the job as quickly as you can but you still have a large queue. It's not a failiure, it's just volume and thus people need to learn to be a little more patient.

We all have to be somewhere, we all want the same thing so sometimes we just have to realise that these things take time.

DP. 21st Sep 2017 10:58

The MAN experience isn't as bad as some would make out, but there are plenty of issues that can't simply be put down to 'the airport experience'.

A colleague arrived on an evening domestic flight last weekend. Between a lack of ground staff to get them off the aircraft, problems actually getting them into the terminal, and the long wait for taxis with their "official taxi partner", it took him almost two hours to reach the city centre. That is not acceptable.

ZOOKER 21st Sep 2017 16:33

If the scenario you describe happens, then all 12 lanes should be open, tactically there is no excuse for it not to happen.

Strategically, maybe more lanes should have been provided? There are 3 double-decker buses arrive each day, and they didn't start arriving un-announced.

Much of the Manchester forum on PPRuNe is about new services, or increasing frequencies of the services already established. What is the point of that if the airport is struggling to cope with the situation existing at present?

A colleague of mine recently flew LSGG-EGCC, arriving mid-afternoon. It took 30 minutes longer from arriving on stand at T1 to his home in Bramhall, than it did to fly from Switzerland to Stand 6.

The airport, as Mr A Tis observes, sadly, seems to be constantly playing 'catch-up'. Car-parking is now a major issue, and will only get worse as 'Airport City' is developed. Public transport to anywhere south and east of the airport site is virtually non-existant. Due to a lack of foresight/investment 20 years ago, it has in 05R/23L, one of the most inefficient runways in The U.K.

The airports own FB page strongly advises people to turn up 3 hours before departure time, that doesn't include travel time required to get to EGCC. I can foresee more pax opting to go via Yeadon or John Lennon for certain services. Had it not had its misfortunes over the last few years, even Blackpool would have been a viable alternative, being only an hour by road from Manchester city-centre.

The 'Halcyon Days' of 'MIA - Serving the business-end of Britain', and Manchester Airport, 'Gateway Airport', (with the 'Terry's Chocolate Orange' logo), seem to be, (like the aircraft that carried that name), long gone.

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 16:46

Well, Manchester growing at a faster rate both percentage and volume rate than LPL and LBA so clearly MAN doing something right.

And an hour by road from Manchester city centre to BLK? On a very good day maybe! Can take an hour to get out of Manchester itself some days!

You also need to remember that out of 27.4 million passengers, we seem to be taking about 200 or so 'disgruntled' tweets and forum posters as gospel that the MAN experience is sh*t. That's much less than 1% of the total, about a B737-800 worth of passengers.

What about the other 27.3999 passengers that didn't complain? What brings them back?

Skipness One Echo 21st Sep 2017 18:32

Sorry but who cares if MAN is growing faster than LBA or LPL? That's bragging rights.
How about has existing capacity been well planned? Is there sufficient contingency? How much better is the customer experience?

Bottom line is that senior decision makers have been able to get away with short term planning decisions on a tactical basis and that only gets you so far. The fact that the second runway is decidedly sub optimal hasn't helped. If they'd rebuilt the terminals rather than focussing on a parallel runway then I believe they'd be in a better place. The layout remains a counter intuitive nightmare, even today. Gatwick still just about manages to get by on one runway and have some of the best terminal facilities in the UK as they've spent a fortune in recent years. MAN is now going to rebuild the terminals, so pain today, gain tomorrow, but they're way behind the curve here. If you think only 200 people were less than impressed you're fooling yourself. One can be a supporter of MAN but be open and honest without defending every single aspect of the operation.

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 18:48

1500 passengers in the immigration queue. You know as well as I do you can count on one hand the amount of times that has happened!

Yes, border queues can get long, just as they do at LHR, LGW, BHX, USA airports, even DSA and LPL have experienced long queues at one time or other. Show me one single airport in the UK handling over 1mil pax that hasn't experienced a border queue at various times and then I will aknowledge MAN has a particular problem.

Look, as we have gone over it time and again, is MAN perfect? No. I too could list many 'trivial' problems with the site, it's clearly old, it's aesthetically crap and in dire need of the renovations it's getting.
But is MAN unique in having issues? No, not by a long shot. Has the renovation started too late, yes, one could easily argue they are late, but the point is, things are now being addressed.

MAN is trying to sort out some remedial problems too.

-They have created more space in T3 security by moving the police interview/watch rooms and the managers podium. I believe they are also making lane 2 into the new dedicated fast track line, but that is a bit slower coming as I also believe they have to add a new biometric gate to access the extra lane. This new dedicated fast track lane will also free up lane 5 to be more available to passengers.

-T3 itself is obviously very space constrained. They are adding more walkways to reach the further stands, they have added a new lounge to try and appease the higher end passenger and added a new fast food option, which fits in with some of the Ryanair crowds. There's not a huge amount more they can do in T3 so I suppose any more work has to wait until T3 gets its turn for a full refurb. I suppose the only other thing they could do is expand the floor with the lounges to create more of a food court and then leave downstairs for seating (or vice versa), but, that's just my suggestion and not an indication of what will happen.

-I don't suppose T1 could have much done to it given in the next few years some elements will start to be knocked down.

I have also heard more consultations are taking place with Border control about staffing, but an issue in both T1/T3 is not so much staffing, but space to expand so it's going to be a work in progress and therefore a like it or lump it situation for now, you can't just click your fingers and magic up more space, it needs to be planned and agreed.

Ribble56 21st Sep 2017 19:07

200 disgruntled out of 27million, get real will ye!

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 19:17

I said 200 disgruntled social media and forum members. Obviously there will be more, but I'd still be surprised if that number exceeds 2-3% of the overall total.

Ribble56 21st Sep 2017 19:46

810,000 OR 4,378 737-800s, blimey that many 3%

LAX_LHR 21st Sep 2017 21:36

Yes exactly, even the tiny number of 3% complaining seems extortionately high, doesn't it, which is unlikely 810,000 people complained.

Let's just say even if 20,000 'complained'. In this context, I mean, wrote in, commented on a social media site, took part in a survey and scored it badly, EI, a written complaint of some sort. Even that is less that 0.1% of the total, which means 99.9% of those passengers using MAN didn't feel disgruntled enough to complain in any 'formal/written' manner. Yes people may 'talk' but how many in reality would carry out a vow 'never use it again' etc.

Doesn't this prove the point that the majority of people are either happy or at worst, 'so/so' about MAN, thus showing what people write in here is clearly a minority view? Clearly shows an exaggerated problem to me, in that we all know MAN isn't great but thus proving MAN obviously isn't as bad as being portrayed by some!

ZOOKER 21st Sep 2017 22:41

But how many of the 'disgruntled masses' didn't bother to make their views known on the various internet portals?

Dobbo_Dobbo 21st Sep 2017 23:06

MAN is obviously not perfect, in T1/3 (i.e. where most passengers are processed) the experience is poor.

The TP is late. Easy with hindsight, but it should have been performed several years previously. However, we are where we are and MAN is well placed to take advantage of new technology and distinguish its self from other UK regional airports. Whether the TP achieves this remains to be seen.

The reality of a modern day airport's business model is that most money is made by passengers parking their car, buying food and drink and shopping. I'd expect the TP to reflect that (whilst conforming to a very high standard of airport functionality) and if it achieves this it will do okay.

The second runway was obviously a good idea. It's a shame it's not a true independent runway, but it looks like good value.

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