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-   -   Snow cancelations Heathrow (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/505230-snow-cancelations-heathrow.html)

Old Grouch 21st Jan 2013 19:40


I noticed a flight to Frankfurt yesterday was being operated by a B767 - I
very much doubt an aircraft of that size would be operating that route in normal circumstances rather than an A320S aircraft.
Just to focus on this one particular point, I think (it could have changed by now) some FRA flights are scheduled with 767 equipment, the same goes for ARN and some other European routes. I'm not saying that load consolidation didn't occur; just that some of those flights were probably scheduled.

DaveReidUK 21st Jan 2013 21:54


I very much doubt an aircraft of that size would be operating that route in normal circumstances rather than an A320S aircraft
The BA902/903 rotation is almost always operated by a B763.

Fairdealfrank 21st Jan 2013 21:55

Quote: "Don't know much about BA's operation - would I be right in thinking that the disruption has been overhyped slightly? The airline are only cancelling flights which have several rotations a day. For example, the major hubs in Europe and North America.

And where available, merging flights onto larger aircraft? I very much doubt the load factor would be huge, especially on some routes. I noticed a flight to Frankfurt yesterday was being operated by a B767 - I very much doubt an aircraft of that size would be operating that route in normal circumstances rather than an A320S aircraft. Obviously BA have flexibility in their aircraft unlike other airlines, some aircraft may be utilised when they were originally planned for down days.

Passengers are also given the option to rebook, so that'll free up some space. A lot of extra passengers will be catered for. They've also got their Oneworld and other codeshare partners to "help them out".

Or am I talking rubbish?!"

No.

It makes sense to cancel some of the flights on high frequency routes rather than the once/day flights. The former tend to be short haul, the latter long haul.

With high freqency flights, at least pax can reach their destinations sometime the same day, even if it means using large equipment as flights are "combined", using 767s rather than 319s/320s/321s.

It's less disruptive than cancelling lower frequency long haul flights, which could mean capacity/overcrowding problems the next day, and aircraft on the wrong continent, etc..

Obviously load factors, particularly premium business load factors, also play a part in determining which flights are cancelled.

Weather conditions at the destination airports have to be considered, of course, which in the case of short haul flights, are likely to be similar.

Quote: "In terms of Heathrow Airport itself, I'd be using this opportunity to lobby the government that cancellations would be mitigated somewhat if extra airport capacity was available! I heard someone on The One Show this evening saying that Munich had 1m of snow alongside the runway and there were no cancellations - they also have same capacity for half the passengers!"

Exactly.

hampshireandy 22nd Jan 2013 16:50

They could have used 757s to combine flights, if they still had them, so what happens when the 767s go?? Cant imagine BA using 777s on short haul flights to cope with snow cancellations.

Skipness One Echo 22nd Jan 2013 17:07

The B777s are substituted on domestics at LGW a few time each year.

Dannyboy39 22nd Jan 2013 17:15

Is there any reason why you couldn't operate a spare B744 or two on some routes? The vast majority of routes BA operate on have an available runway which can take the aircraft size.

Obviously you wouldn't see the benefits, such as efficiencies, but its all about getting passengers to their destination, surely?

I understand in extreme circumstances charter airlines rent them out?

hampshireandy 22nd Jan 2013 17:28

Isnt the problem with BA and Heathrow in general the fact they operate too many flights? BA fly to Berlin Tegal 6 times per day, they fly to Milan MXP/LIN 9 times per day. Im sure some of those flights are far from full. Surely to avoid snow cancellations and to free up slots at LHR they can operate less flights but with larger aircraft?? Maybe 321s instead of 319s on some flights?

wiggy 22nd Jan 2013 17:34


Is there any reason why you couldn't operate a spare B744 or two on some routes?
Which spare 744's? Most/many days there aren't any spare aircraft to back up the Longhaul operation, let alone sub onto a shorthaul route.


Maybe 321s instead of 319s on some flights?
Same response.

The company will sometimes try the larger aircraft tactic if it can, I've done shorthaul routes on both the 777 and the 744, but most days you simply don't have spare aircraft sitting around.

Tableview 22nd Jan 2013 17:40


BA fly to Berlin Tegal 6 times per day, they fly to Milan MXP/LIN 9 times per day. Im sure some of those flights are far from full. Surely to avoid snow cancellations and to free up slots at LHR they can operate less flights but with larger aircraft?? Maybe 321s instead of 319s on some flights?
Several possibly incorrect assumptions here. You are assuming that 'some of those flights are far from full', but you don't know that. Yield is more important than being full, and on routes like that they need higher frequency to attract higher paying passengers who need the flexibility of several flights a day.

It's just possible that BA's Revenue Management people have been through this exercise and got their sums right!

Fairdealfrank 22nd Jan 2013 18:12

Quote: "They could have used 757s to combine flights, if they still had them, so what happens when the 767s go?? Cant imagine BA using 777s on short haul flights to cope with snow cancellations."

Why not, provided the destination airport can handle these, why not use any available large aircraft to clear the backlog. As they say: "any port in a storm".

Quote: "Isnt the problem with BA and Heathrow in general the fact they operate too many flights? BA fly to Berlin Tegal 6 times per day, they fly to Milan MXP/LIN 9 times per day. Im sure some of those flights are far from full. Surely to avoid snow cancellations and to free up slots at LHR they can operate less flights but with larger aircraft?? Maybe 321s instead of 319s on some flights?"

Not neccessarily, business demands high frequencies for the flexibility that they need. Moreover, some frequencies may be timed to allow transfers to longhaul flights, the "hub" function.

No disrespect, but the chances are, as mentioned by Tableview, that BA know what they're doing!

hampshireandy 22nd Jan 2013 18:35

I understand your points about frequency, to an extent, but in the case of Linate, there is a BA flight leaving LHR at 07.40 and another at 08.40 both using 319s! And BA moan about delays and limited slots. How about one flight at either time using a 767 or 777? And i know youre going to say they dont have any spare aircraft, so go buy some more Mr Walsh, maybe flog some 319s to help pay for them.

wiggy 22nd Jan 2013 19:08


How about one flight at either time using a 767 or 777? And i know youre going to say they dont have any spare aircraft, so go buy some more Mr Walsh, maybe flog some 319s to help pay for them.
Can't comment on the 767 economics but are you seriously saying you'd routinely use a 777 on a LHR-LIN (thinks the likes of fuel burn/turanround time/route costs/landing fees and a thousand and one other reasons .....:ugh:)

Skipness One Echo 22nd Jan 2013 20:46


Nice for whom ..the airline? ..the travelling public? or some some retro anorak
There's usually 4-5 heavies at the West base parked up for hours at a time but I accept if you call one into service at short notice you then have to find a replacement for it's next mission and so on.

How about one flight at either time using a 767 or 777? And i know youre going to say they dont have any spare aircraft, so go buy some more Mr Walsh, maybe flog some 319s to help pay for them.
What would you say if I told you this had been done? BA cut frequency and used larger aircraft from LHR. Moved all B737s out to LGW and deemed that from hence forth nothing smaller than a B757 would be on LHR short haul. It didn't work well, they realised that to remain competitive they had to maintain frequency which means flying when the customer wants to and not when you do. The trains would all run on time were it not for those annoying passengers.

DaveReidUK 22nd Jan 2013 21:04

"Why don't they use larger aircraft, less often?" is engraved on the headstone of many an amateur airline strategist who hasn't a clue about how competition on a route operates.


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