SZD, literally, can't accept anything larger than an Airfix kit ... It's kind of like suggesting that Shoreham-By-Sea jeopardises any investment in Gatwick and/or Cumbernauld jeopardises any investment in both Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Try to get over any conspiracy theories!

And you think that DSA doesn't accept anything smaller than a 737?

There are PA28s and Cessna 150s at DSA, so a re-opened SZD would compete with DSA on the GA front.

BTW, it's no conspiracy theory from me. I think there's zero chance of SZD re-opening, and people should give up on the idea now before somebody loses a lot of money on it. I'm suggesting that there's no way Peel will sell SZD because it, rightly, wants to protect their investment at DSA and a re-opened SZD would compete with them on GA and business aviation. If Peel don't want to sell then there's nothing anybody can do about it.
But, I have signed the petition because there's a lack of GA-accessible airfields in the UK. One can dream.

An "AIRPORT" of any viability shouldn't need to give two hoots to "Airfix Kits" such as PA28's and Cessna 150's that pay how much per landing fee?

This area is for Airlines, Airports & Routes, not flying clubs and Airfix kits!

I guess we should now realise that Sheffield City shall be seriously viable once it may re-open because it hopes for Piper and Cessna movements and "We'll show DSA what for" :ugh:

Phileas Fogg, I think you're totally missing the point.

ANY aircraft that may fly into SZD would be business that potentially is taken from DSA. SZD and DSA are both owned by the same company. That company only wants to keep one of the airfields open. If it was to sell SZD, this would then compete with it's own airfield. Why would any business sell an asset that would then compete directly with itself for the same customer?
Business jets regularly use DSA, and they will be paying hundreds/thousands per landing.

Decent business aviation airports have radar or on-site radio navigation equipment (NDB or VOR) - neither of which SZD had when it was open (and which cost of lot of money to install and maintain). Cambridge, Oxford and Gloucester have radar, Gamston has a VOR and others have an NDB. Without these, SZD will not attract anything bigger than a Cessna 172.

Robin Hood DSA is not convenient really for Shefiield. DSA seems to be just charters and lots of Polish flights for all the polish community in the area. The airport/region in crying out for some schedules to Amsterdam or London, LGW or LCY, for connecting flights. DSA at the moment is doing little it seems to attract or cater for the business community. Its just holiday flights and migrant worker flights.

Phileas Fogg, just a reminder that it was you who started the discussion about airfix kits.

I am baffled as to what your point of view is, and whether you support SZD. Earlier in the thread you were against the idea, now you are arguing with me, who is supporting your argument earlier. Are you just arguing for the sake of it?

wb999,

No, I'm not missing the point, I'm offering unbiased opinion based on the fact that I have never been to SZD, I am not from the area and my only experience of DSA was when I flew past in one of a formation of four C-130's with a VC10 chasing our ass during a particular flypast of 1977.

I think you're missing the point, you say that the company only wants to keep one of the airfields open ... Well only one of the airfields is open and it's losing, by all accounts, a significant amount of money.

Would you be prepared to personally financially support the re-opening of SZD?

I very much doubt it!

wb999,

I'm in favour of anything that is needed and will make money.

Such as this island on which I live, it has developed to the stage whereas it needs a supermarket on the island, we need paved surfaced roads on the island which is something they are working upon but do we need a 2nd airport upon the island ..... Hell no, we only have four ATR-72 movements per week, why on earth would we need two airports to service so few aeroplane movements?

And ... P.S. I'm not arguing, I've got better things to do fighting fires here with the locals daily ... I'm just discussing.

Phileas, you are definitely missing the point -which is that it is immaterial who/what could fly to a re-opened SZD as Peel will never sell on the basis it will harm DSA. This is why DSA is a material factor in SZD's future. If DSA did not exist or Peel did not own both then any SZD may be available for sale.

I can't spell it out any simpler. Hopefully you will understand this time.

I personally would not put any money into SZD, because it will be money wasted. The airport was not viable and will not be viable in the future.

You appear to agree with what I say, but then disagree about the exact same point, which is why I don't understand what your view is.

Quote: "Why would any business sell an asset that would then compete directly with itself for the same customer?"

It would do so only when required to by law (monopolies commission), e.g. LHR-LGW-STN and GLA-EDI, obviously not applicable in this case.

Quote: "Robin Hood DSA is not convenient really for Shefiield. DSA seems to be just charters and lots of Polish flights for all the polish community in the area. The airport/region in crying out for some schedules to Amsterdam or London, LGW or LCY, for connecting flights. DSA at the moment is doing little it seems to attract or cater for the business community. Its just holiday flights and migrant worker flights."

Maybe that's where SZD went wrong: no connections to London.

LHR rather than LGW for onward connections, but unachievable because LHR is full.

LCY for point to point city centre-city centre business flights would probably been the way forward. However both LHR and LCY are expensive airports and there may have been inadequate traffic for this to be viable.

Maybe it's the same situation at DSA?

wb9999, Sheffield City had an NDB, SWF from memory. It's still there to best of my knowledge.

eltonioni, yes you are correct in that they had one. Apologies. Although it's not currently in use (if it is still there), as it's not on the CAA charts, so it might need a lot of money spending on it to recommission it.

I understand that NDB's are especially cheap, within the reach of the "puddle jumper" airfields with Cessna's and Pipers that the erstwhile "if I can't use it you can't have it" Victorian balloonist thinks are beneath him. :D

eltonioni

NDBs may be cheap to buy, but to operate one in the UK you have to be a CAA Certified Air Navigation Service Provider (ANSP) which will significantly increase the price, and you will keep paying every year for the privilege of maintaining the Certification.

wb9999 -

I guess we're all agreed that discussing DSA and SZD simultaneously is inevitable. So a quick question about viability:

SZD is often labelled 'unviable' (evidence never seems to be offered) but was only available to airline traffic for 5 years (RFFS downgraded to Category 1 in 2002). But Robin Hood made a nett loss of £11.6m last year (its seventh year of operations). Passenger numbers continue to fall. The airlines seem to have little faith in it. So... surely Robin Hood is currently unviable?

How long will a company like Peel continue to accept this situation?

Reality check....three points:
 

First:-If Finningley is not busy with IT traffic, maybe, just maybe, there isn't any great demand from (Sheffield) local tour companies to fly more of their customers from Finningley, presumably they are happy to bus them to--I assume--East Midlands, which at present probably is about the same journey time from Sheffield via the M1, and may allow for a pick-up of pax in Chesterfield along the way. Is there a current campaign in Sheffield for more IT destinations from Finningley?
Second:-Further, is there any current campaign in Sheffield for scheduled destinations from Finningley? Business people in South Yorkshire presumably do fly to Europe on business, how do they cope at present? Are they shouting from the rooftops for scheduled flights from Finningley?
Third:- Finally, and reverting to Sheffield City, does anyone local to the Steel City detect any great outcry at the lack of a GA facility more local than say Sandtoft, Netherthorpe, Retford/Gamston?

I respectfully suspect that the answer to all three points is : "NO".

EGCA

Norman Normal, for viability you have to look at future potential as well as current/past performance.

DSA and SZD are very different airports, with very different potential (assuming SZD did re-open).

SZD would be aiming for a small market and competing with other small regional airports across the country with better facilities (longer runways and radar). The STOL market is very small and limited, with high fares - and operators that want radar. SZD tried business and general aviation, and that wasn't a success.

DSA is in a very different situation. The airport has the potential to handle any aircraft to any destination, in pretty much any weather, with the facilities that were sadly lacking at SZD. DSA has been unlucky in it's timing in starting operations. The economy started deteriorating in 2007 - just as passenger numbers were approaching decent levels for them. But the future potential is there, when the economy improves.

Liverpool (also owned by Peel) has never made a profit since it opened, but is a popular airport with many routes. And, if you go back 15-20 years ago, the future of all regional airports did not look good - and most had been operating for 30+ years. And had it not been for the rise in popularity of low-cost airlines, many would be struggling now.

SZD was reportedly losing £400k a year BEFORE Peel took over and BEFORE the airlines vacated, and the original developer/operator was struggling financially.

FDF wrote:

Air routes from DSA to any airport in London were never considered, as the train takes only 1h 40 and operates at least twice an hour. The rail service from Sheffield to London takes just over two hours. Presumably MAN-LHR survives as there is a greater catchment and more interlining. Even then VLM's service to LCY died.

The resurrection of LBA's BA service to LHR has received a great deal of scepticism that it is there as a slot-holder - see that thread.

EGCA wrote:

It doesn't really work like that though. I would be delighted if there were flights I could use on business to Brussels about six times a year either from Sheffield or Doncaster. But I doubt there are sufficient potential business flyers from South Yorkshire to justify this - or any other destinations, surrounded as we are by MAN, LBA and EMA denying us a wider catchment. This is not helped by Eurostar moving to St Pancras, so we can be on a train to Brussels or Paris within an hour of arriving in London, with a choice of many departures each day.

There is also no specific linked industry in South Yorkshire like oil or chemicals which keeps the KLM services from MME and HUY going.

wb9999,

You keep referring to an "SZD" sale yet it seems you accept that any re-opened SZD would be a loss making disaster and wouldn't stay in business for very long at all.

So what is the point, why sell and/or re-open something that lost a bucket load of money causing it to close the first time around for it lose even more money and close a second time around?

wb9999 -

Where to start?

The whole point about airports such as SZD is that they are there to link with other regional airports (as well as hubs), not compete with them (BRS - LBA, ABZ - HUY etc.)

Second, what does it matter how long the runway is if there aren't enough people in the local catchment population to fill aeroplanes?

I assume you're aware of the Ciudad Real fiasco? 4,000m runway, and yet, surprise, surprise, no passengers. Result - opened October 2008, closed April 2012.

Obviously, DSA is not doing as badly as Ciudad Real, but it's clearly not making money either.

The sad fact is that DSA and SZD will both be catering to niche markets. Unfortunately for DSA, its niche markets do not come with big margins, and its costs are outweighing revenue in a big way. SZD on the other hand is much better-placed to attract high-margin traffic, and to make money by combining that traffic with other on-airport while keeping costs low thanks to smaller infrastructure.

Norman Normal, regional airports compete with each other (why would Leeds Bradford and Humberside object to DSA opening?), to attract airlines and create bases, and a re-opened SZD would definitely be competing with DSA, so why would Peel sell unless they were forced to?

The number of inter-UK flights between regional airports on small turboprops is a small percentage of total flights. The majority of flights from regional airports are to Europe, on jets or large turboprops. DSA is well suited for this, when the economy picks up. SZD is not and never will be. The two UK routes you mention are Eastern Airways flights, who are unlikely to use a re-opened SZD as they own Humberside (a competitor!) and they already operate from Leeds and East Midlands. High prices (which are typical on STOL aircraft) does not equal high margin. It's more likely due to high costs.

It's unlikely any airline would use SZD, as it is too short and doesn't have radar. There are currently no commercial flights from any similar sized runway in the UK, and, other than a few rare exceptions in the Scottish Highlands, none into a non-radar airport. Since SZD originally opened, airlines want bigger runways for bigger planes and radar. BA got rid of all of their turboprops, and KLMuk's smallest aircraft is larger than the one that flew into SZD.

I don't think DSA is catering for a niche market. Currently, yes (because of the economy). But potentially, no. It's in a similar position to places like Newcastle, Liverpool, Leeds, East Midlands were 15 years ago. Back then the only time you would visit one of those airports was for a charter flight on a package deal to the sun - just like DSA now.

The Ciudad Real airport fiasco is very different to DSA. It cost £1 billion pounds to open (15 times the cost at DSA), was alleged to have been planned to fail from the beginning and there was corruption - investors, banks and the regional Government were conned into putting money in and it all, allegedly, went to the developer and his construction company.

There is some misinformation and propaganda coming from the FSB (I support their campaign, but I wish they would stick to facts).

The FSB write in their myths document:
“Sheffield has a 1211 metre runway. There are many regional airliners operating out of cities all over the world that are designed specifically to land and take off on 1200 metre runways. London City Airport handles about 3m passengers per year, all of them flying in and out on regional airliners“.
LCY’s runway is 1508 metres – 25% longer than SZD. That is a massive difference, as most of the aircraft that flies in to LCY would not fit into SZD.

The list of airlines that the FSB say could use SZD is incorrect. BACityFlyer, Air France Régional and Lufthansa regional do not have aircraft capable of using SZD at maximum weight. KLMuk have 3 aircraft that could just about fit into SZD - the ATR 72 (requires 1200 metres, no room for error!). But if they are already allocated to other routes then KLM is out of the question for SZD. An airport that relies on one or two airlines (even with 100% loads) is not going to be profitable - ask Humberside!

Toronto City Airport does have a 1200m runway with 1.5 million passengers. But they have a large operator (Porter Airlines) based there with a fleet of 26 aircraft designed for short runway operations. If SZD was to re-open there will never be a scenario where a major airline uses SZD as their main hub. Before Porter moved into Toronto City in 2006 the airport was losing $1 million a year.

Toronto City’s runway length is 180 metres shorter than the Porter's fleet manufacturer’s specifications, so the airline have to leave 8 seats empty on every flight. Hardly an ideal situation in the UK, where fuel costs, passenger taxes and airport fees are much higher than in North America.

Metro Toronto has a population of 5.5 million, and it's the financial capital in Canada. To get anywhere in Canada you have to fly, unlike the UK. So the figure of 1.5 million doesn't look quite as impressive. Sheffield's population is just over a tenth of metro Toronto, which would equate to about 150,000 passengers annually (before we start narrowing that down and thinking about niches that SZD would be targeting) - which is not enough to make an airport viable.

It is extreme for the FSB to compare the potential of Sheffield City airport with London City and Toronto City. It's like comparing Humberside with Heathrow.

Like I said before, I would love SZD to open. I've flown from it when it was open. But my head says it will never happen, unless some rich guy wants to lose millions on a hobby.

For all those with a wish list for Sheffield Airport to reopen as a commercial venture the above quote says it all. Which airline in the present economic climate even if it had the aircraft available would want to fly from Sheffield?When the economy picks up and eventually it will, all the factors in regard to it's original closure as a commercial airport will still be there.In time even the keenest proponent for reopening Sheffield Airport will come to realise it will never happen.Good luck to them for still trying.

wb999,

You are quite incorrect regarding your summarisation of, supposedly, how the likes NCL, LPL and LBA were 15 years ago, you might have only visited such airports for a package deal to the sun but others visited them for other purposes.

Not just 15 years ago, I can cast my mind back 25 or more years, in those days such airlines as BA, BMA, BCal, AirUK, Dan Air, Loganair aswell as all the smaller airlines that came and went, had quite a domestic route network.

One example, if I can recall AirUK's routes, from NCL AirUK offered routes to EDI, ABZ, STN and/or NWI aswell as, internationally, AMS and CPH, besides these NCL also had services to both LGW & LHR, no doubt Dan Air were offering services to Ireland pn the "Budgie" network and so on.

LBA, AirUK offered routes to STN, EDI, ABZ, BFS, AMS & CPH, BMA offered a LHR service whilst other operators offered other routes.

15 or more years ago LPL would have been the last airport I would have thought of for a package holiday, in those days LPL was only good for such routes as Ireland and IOM unless one wants to go even further back to BMA's LHR route and the days of Cambrian Airways!

Perhaps one of the lesser (slower) airports to develop was HUY, perhaps, because it's not anywhere in particular, even the name itself suggests it is beside a river rather than in or near a city and without a significant catchment area.

And, not so far down the road, there is Finningley, again without a significant catchment area, take a look how long it has taken HUY to get to where it is today, something like 40 years, well expect it to take Finningley a further 30+ years to get to a level that HUY is at today!

Phileas, yes there were a small number of scheduled domestic and European routes at each airport but many more charter, 15 years ago (the AirUK name disappeared that year, closely followed by many of their routes). I was comparing their position back then to Finningley now. Finningley is not solely charter - they have about 7 scheduled destinations. So my point about DSA's position being comparable to others 15 years ago is still correct.

15 years ago LPL had 600k passengers.
15 years ago LBA had 1.2 million passengers.
Both had been open decades before reaching these numbers.
In 2011 DSA had 800k, and had reached 1.1 million annually within 2 years of opening, and then the economy went pear shaped. If DSA had been luckier with the economy not being so attrocious so soon after opening they would probably have been exceeding 2 million passengers annually by now, based on the growth in the first couple of years.

Finningley bypassed HUY after year 1, and had three times the number of passengers in 2011.

So I wouldn't be concerned about DSA just yet. Give it another 10 years, when hopefully the economy will have picked up.

According to a recent LPL press release, Liverpool did host charter flights pre-loco days.No idea when, but I guess in the 90s.

wb9999,

LPL open for decades before 15 years ago?

Which "LPL" are you talking about, the old or the current? Of the current LPL the runway was laid circa 1966 and the current airport opened circa 1986?

And LBA, well LBA has an appalling weather record, in days gone by it had restricted and regimental opening hours and, these alone, put airlines off and, until 1984, it had a restrictive runway length combined with high terrain off one end of the runway and even with the runway extension in place the high terrain caused this to happen:

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2764/4...bca08f28_z.jpg

So LBA had and has it's own problems developing and the old LPL had short runways and an undersized and geriatric terminal which, these days, is a Crowne Plaza Hotel.

Phileas, as a reminder the discussion is about the viability of DSA (because SZD was deemed unviable, so people don't think we have hijacked a thread!).

LPL's runway opened in 1966, so 32 years before 1998 = 3 decades.
LBA started commercial services in 1935, and was operating holiday charters in the 70s = 2 to 6 decades.
Either way the facilities in operation by 1998 had been in place longer than DSA has been open.
Any deficiencies at either airport in the past, in a comparison to DSA now, are offset by your own point about lack of catchment area at DSA. So I guess that makes them all equal for comparison purposes.

Anyway, I think it best to return the discussion to SZD.

One last thing... That pic you posted would be a regular view at SZD if the FSB truly believe that all aircraft that fly into LCY would get into Sheffield.

"It's unlikely any airline would use SZD, as it is too short and doesn't have radar. There are currently no commercial flights from any similar sized runway in the UK, and, other than a few rare exceptions in the Scottish Highlands, none into a non-radar airport"

Are Lands End and the Isles of Scilly in Scottish Highlands now, when did they move?

After I posted that I did mean to put a disclaimer about flights to/from isolated communities where air transport is a necessity and the flights can be done at low level. Which would hardly cover Sheffield. I doubt a SZD to AMS flight would be at 4,000 feet.

Before you mention it, I know a small operator is planning a Shoreham to Paris service, but they they've been short-lived in the past.

And I'm surprised you didn't mention North Denes, even though that's helicopters.

wb9999,

Nope, the Shoreham service ain't going to Paris ... It's going to POX :)

And, hailing from the South-East and having lived and worked in Sussex twice during my career I'm reasonably familiar with the chequered history of hit and miss air services in/out of Shoreham.

But you are coming up with incorrect comparisons with other airports and/or air services, you suggested that there are no STOL non-radar services in England & Wales, I suggested Land's end, not only short and non-radar but grass, it is not a neccessity to use it because St. Mawgan is up the road from Lands End, you know that and you predicted that I would point it out so you entered a loophole of "low level services" in vain attempt to win your point ... Didn't you? :)

I would be shocked if SZD would attract, or rely on, island destinations (Highlands, Channel or Scilly) so I don't think it affects the discussion about SZD, even though the Scillies had slipped my mind. (easily done)

There are a very limited number of Twin Otters and Islanders. Don't start raising the hopes of people in Sheffield, otherwise the Scillies will be overrun.

And you didn't pick up on Dundee!

Twin Otters, Islanders, Do228's are all in current production so who can say how many there are?

Dundee is in Scotland is it not ... You'd already covered that in one of your previous loopholes. :)

I was going to, previously, mention Alderney aswell but then you another loophole of "UK" and, technically speaking, Alderney isn't in UK.

Just to break this discussion - interesting though it is - can I just sum up my thoughts:

- there is not enough business and/or citybreak traffic at the moment to sustain either Sheffield or DSA.
- DSA is surviving at the moment on holiday coast destinations, and Polish and Lithuanian migrants' traffic with perhaps about 10% outgoing tourist traffic thereto. Hopefully both will pick up with an economic upturn.
- Improvements in Eurostar diminish the case for short flights from either airport.
- There is no domestic market.
- Because of the proximity of MAN, LBA, EMA and HUY (to Amsterdam) the catchment area is restricted by them.
- There are severe issues with runway length at a potentially reopened Sheffield airport

This leads to the conclusion there is little hope of Sheffield airport reopening

Alderney is covered by radar. You can't get to it without going through the Channel Islands Control Zone (Class A, managed by Jersey).
Dundee is probably typical of what SZD would be like. 2 flights a day to LCY, lots of other routes coming and going and the airport losing millions each year. That sounds like a cheap dig, buy it isn't meant that way. They have a 1400 metre runway and struggle to find long term operators. It's more comparable then LCY and Toronto City.

johnnychips, I would say that's a fair summary.

wb9999,

I was referring to the runway at ACI and not the radar, if ACI isn't "STOL" then I don't know what is!

I'd suggest that Peel are doing any potential buyer/operator of SZD a favour by declining to sell ... they're saving him/her from losing a bucket load of money.

Dundee is a long way from London. As has previously been said, Sheffield is about two-and-a-quarter hours away by an hourly train.

And, as has been previously said, if MAN can't sustain flights to LCY, how could Sheffield?

johnnychips, true. I did mean it more in the sense of 2 flights a day (any destination). It would probably be outside of Britain.

Phileas, I will agree on your last point.

I know the following won't interest all of you, but Sheffield FSB's Neville Martin has sent this out today;

You recently signed the Federation of Small Businesses’ petition calling on Sheffield City Council to “....urgently ensure that any redevelopment of the site of the former Sheffield City Airport (including further destruction of its infrastructure) is proscribed until an independent public enquiry is held to look into the potential for its future use as a facility for commercial aviation.”

You will be delighted to know that the petition has surpassed its target of 5,000 signatories, and this allows us to force the Council to debate the issue in open forum.

We shall be formally presenting the petition to the Council at 10.15am on Thursday 14 February at Sheffield Town Hall. If any signatories would like to attend the handover, we shall be meeting with Timothy Kirkhope MEP, who has been a staunch supporter of our campaign, at the front of the Town Hall at 10.00am. It is hoped the Leader of the Council or a senior deputy will emerge to formally receive the petition and there will be a press photo opportunity.

Please feel free to attend.

Neville Martin
Development Manager
Federation of Small Businesses
Small Business Support
Tel: 0114 261 7132
Mobile: 07917 628922

The information contained in this email is strictly confidential and for the use of the addressee only. Notice is hereby given that any disclosure, use or copying of the information by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited and may be illegal. If you have received this message in error please notify the sender immediately by return email. Neither the sender nor the FSB accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses and advises that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.

National Federation of Self-Employed and Small Businesses Ltd (Federation of Small Businesses) Sir Frank Whittle Way, Blackpool Business Park, Blackpool FY4 2FE. Registered in England No: 1263540 VAT No: 997342763

The FSB Conference 2013 website contains a wealth of useful information about the forthcoming Conference in Leicester in March 2013. Visit Federation of Small Businesses Conference 2013

I'm staggered this thread is still going.

Could someone please list the commercial airliner types with more than 19 seats that could happily utilise this 1199m runway with no significant constraints on passenger or fuel load? Whilst you are at it, list the 19-seaters too - J31 for instance can't use this length.

Of those you think can happily perform commercial routes from such a 1199m runway, how many of those types are readily available, well supported with spares availability, MROs, easy to find/train type-rated crew, have relatively low operating costs per seat etc. etc.?

There's no scope to practically extend this runway at all - you're stuck with what there is with the requisite RESAs at either end and the clear and graded widths either side of the runway.

Complete and utter non-starter for commercial ops. It's also no good for any practical form of business aviation bar a few turboprops.

Sorry.