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-   -   Jet2 4 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/466290-jet2-4-a.html)

EK77WNCL 29th Jul 2014 23:21

If Jet2 ever... Ever get widebodies, I think EK could be their people, EK's old A330's (and dare I say it, 2 class, non ER 772's) could be perfect for them, simply because they will be stupidly cheap and they could fill them on a few short haul routes. Even though Pakistan are unlikely to let them in, LS could break into LBA-ISB... It just seems like the kind of thing they would do, or that they might have done in the past in their more adventurous days.

Waldo1 29th Jul 2014 23:26

Or else a shared lease agreement a la sunwing...or like air2000 used to do too....

Facelookbovvered 30th Jul 2014 06:44

A few long haul wide body aircraft would be useful for Jet2holidays, no doubt there is plenty of life left in the 757's the Egypt stuff & Canary isle stuff can all be done on the 800's

take-off 30th Jul 2014 18:33

Should jet2 jump into the long haul holidays... I'd imagine Florida is likely to be and Cancun possible destinations , also imagine these flights likely to be Leeds based, would they dip their toes in the MAN market , what with the long haul holiday market tied up with Thomson and T Cook and Virgin , they would have to pull something out the bag , especially if the 757's were to be used , after having flown on a cramped AA 757 to Chicago , not sure id want to trek to Orlando on one.... Not that I dislike 757s or jet2 , both are good :ok:

take-off 30th Jul 2014 18:35

Now that I would like to see a 777 in jet2 colours....:ok::E:E:ok::ok::ok:

GLAinsider 30th Jul 2014 18:55

They have only just clicked in that people from Belfast might want to go to Gran Canaria on holiday. Do you really think they are ready to offer holidays to Orlando and Cancun?

take-off 30th Jul 2014 19:15

Who knows what they are planning , here in less than sunny BLK , we,d like a year round AGP , considering the high load factors it gets , ans the prices are rarely cheap , one has to wonder why that for sept/ oct next year it drops to 2 weekly , going from monarchs daily and j2 4/5 times a week when they first started at BLK , you have to wonder at their continual running down of the route , but they obviously know what they are doing,

GAZMO 30th Jul 2014 19:29

GLAinsider

You never know Virgin have just announced BFS to MCO for next year, so maybe Cancun???

JonnyH 30th Jul 2014 19:43

There is zero chance of Jet2 buying larger, wide-bodied aircrafts and absolutely no chance of them joining the long haul market besides there winter breaks to EWR.

With the success of Jet2Holidays, it's slightly understandable why people think they could be successful in the long haul market. But maintaining long haul aircrafts, especially with Jet2 buying mostly older aircraft, I think it would be incredibly hard to make any money and fill these aircraft. There's no need for them to use them for places like SSH... It's wouldn't make any financial sense. I'm sure they would just increase the rotations.

From what I know, and what everybody else can see also, it's definitely not on the agenda and there's no reason for it too either.

Lord Spandex Masher 30th Jul 2014 19:56

Speaketh thee from knowledge?

CentreFix25 30th Jul 2014 21:16

Whether it be knowledge or not, there's a whole lot of common sense in there.

Lord Spandex Masher 30th Jul 2014 21:31

Stating things like "there is zero chance", "from what I know" and "definitely not" would imply that he does know definitely.

All I'm willing to say is that he doesn't.

JonnyH 30th Jul 2014 21:51

Do you really think Jet2 have the resources, funds and know how to go into the long haul market? And if they were to go into the long haul market do you really think they would buy long haul aircraft such as A330/777 etc. The closest they would get to an aircraft like that would be a 767 which would probably be leased by Titan.

There's absolutely no way Jet2 are going to buy these types of aircraft. If you think so you're deluded.

The long haul market is completely different to short haul. It's all good and well, and a lot, lot easier trying to compete with EZY, TCX, TOM, MON etc, on short haul, than it is competing with all these other carriers that are being mentioned like Virgin and BA. You can't seriously think LS are gonna purchase the aircraft mentioned to fly to CUN, PUJ, SFO etc. The only chance they would go on these routes would be if they were using the 757s - and they wouldn't be able to compete with the other carriers, in my opinion.

The market for Spain, Turkey etc is/was a lot easier for LS to climb into. I know that coming into this type of market is something LS will not do, it would be a huge risk. Jet2 purchasing an A330/777 is laughable, and slightly cringeworthy, if I'm honest and I think the closest to long haul they'll get is a 757 or an A321/767 (leased). An airline that can only afford to lease generally 20+ year old aircraft buying/leasing incredibly expensive wide bodies sounds very financially viable....

Lord Spandex Masher 30th Jul 2014 22:32

You know do you?

Of course, you're willing to prove your assertions...

take-off 30th Jul 2014 22:55

Being purely slf here, think its a bit harsh saying that jet2 couldn't compete having 20 year old 767 to do an Orlando or Mexico route is no different to some of the older aircraft that BA , or any other carrier send over the Atlantic , thomson still use they're similar aged vintage 767 on USA routes , thomas cook currently using 19 year old 767 , albeit a condor branded one, who use their ageing 767 on vegas routes. Obviously reliability is the key issue, the other issue being which bases would be best for them to dip their toe into long haul?

CentreFix25 31st Jul 2014 07:44

I don't think they'd be daft enough to do long haul and wide bodies. I don't even think they've gave the slightest hint ever?

I'm not sure of the cost implications of bringing in a completely new type of aircraft into a fleet. Then finding a market to tap into, that would not only be profitable, but profitable enough to make the whole exercise worthwhile.

The competition who are already established on the routes I'm thinking about would then react to the competition, making an already difficult task less worthwhile.

I also think given the profit warning, now is not the time to try something completely new.

If they're keen to do anything at all, I'd stick to Europe. Keep all of your aircraft within 2 or 3 hours of a replacement, and get your aircraft and crew back to home base each night.

My opinions :rolleyes:

Lord Spandex Masher 31st Jul 2014 08:24

Good idea, stick to the "less buoyant", "less demanding" market, no competition there either.

Don't you think they'd find a market to tap into before they got aircraft to serve that market?

Why don't you try thinking about some routes with less, or even no, competition.

CentreFix25 31st Jul 2014 09:20


Good idea, stick to the "less buoyant", "less demanding" market, no competition there either.
So where's the buoyant market with no competition on it?


Don't you think they'd find a market to tap into before they got aircraft to serve that market?
Reading the thread, the topic has been long-haul and wide bodies and whether this would be a good business move. I'm quite sure nobody doubts they'd do their homework - that's not the question here. We're actually having the homework discussion on this public forum, and everyone has their views.

To summarise... is there a long-haul, widebody market that would be worth Jet2 while having a go at? My opintion is no.


Why don't you try thinking about some routes with less, or even no, competition.
I have my suspicions about routes that have less or no competition on them, and the reasons why. The wide, bucket and spade Mediterranean routes can handle it. Others I'm not so sure, did you have any in mind?

Facelookbovvered 31st Jul 2014 10:00

I think they came close to acquiring some 767's which is a common type rating with the 757, i heard they'd got as far as buying some 767 ULD containers that were going cheap, probably sold them for a profit!!

But i think given current trading they are right to stick to what they know best and make the Midlands and North their own turf, i know some think their jet2holidays packages are a bit tacky and some are but its got to be great for cash flow when you've got 1000's sat in their bank account for 6 months

the 300 is still ideal for under 3 hour med runs and they get cheaper all the time

wallp 5th Aug 2014 13:58

Is Jet2 ever likely to develop a significant presence in the South East or is that a no go for them?

EK77WNCL 7th Aug 2014 13:15

That market with potential and no/little competition is Jet2's turf, to long haul destinations, I.e everything from EMA to GLA, transatlantic and perhaps some to India, Kenya, Maldives etc, maybe further afield. They could also put widebodies on some of the Canaries, Balearics, Cyprus, Greece, mainland Spain runs. I.e from Newcastle, replacing one 757 with a widebody once/twice weekly to Tenerife, could cover the loss due to TCX, TOM and LS all downsizing by about 30-45 seats per flight, or 60-95 return. As an example, dont shoot me down in flames for suggesting it but if they took some ex EK A332's (2 class) and simply re-upholstered the interior, that would be 278 seats available, which I think is probably the correct-ish amount. But to keep costs down they might want to do something a la Corsair, 304 seats or TCX/MON 323/374 seats... Not the most customer friendly but more profit margin.

Ian Brooks 7th Aug 2014 14:18

Just as most operators come out of widebody to Europe so I cannot see it happening also long haul is a big step from europe flights


Ian

JonnyH 7th Aug 2014 17:43

EK77WNCL, surely you're joking about Jet2 operating widebodies to MLE etc? In the least offensive way possible, you really must know nothing if you're suggesting LS could even operate to MLE etc.

In regards to it on other short haul routes, it could perhaps work on small occasions from the bigger bases on high load routes but not to the degree that they would make much from it. I've also travelled regularly to TFS (I love the place) from NCL, especially with LS, and the loads are good most of the time but sometimes can be quite a few empty seats. There was one at the beginning of June with over 30 empty seats.

Again, I just don't think it would work and some of the routes suggested are laughable. You could understand a market in NYC but no chance of places like Kenya, MLE etc.

EK77WNCL 8th Aug 2014 03:52

I wasn't suggesting regular flights from the outset, my suggestion was that perhaps after the market matured somewhat, a series of peak season flights, more than likely from MAN, could work, in a similar way as to what they do with their NYC flights currently. MAN-MLE-CMB could be operated to cater for both but I realise the struggle TOM etc. have had with the Maldives, although I think that was down to stupid high costs as other EU charter carriers seem to be able to make them work.

More likely to work, I believe could be if LS were able to offer safari packages a few times a year as I think they would have higher demand, with regards to India, I know NCL did used to have a peak season flight to Goa not all too long ago.

I am glad we appear to be having an informed and educated discussion about this though instead of the usual "don't listen to the silly kid." If Jet2 got the aircraft for the right price, operated them sustainably, and most importantly managed the costs and offered the holidays for the right price (much easier said than done), they could make it work... Especially if they jump straight in MON's spot when the A330's go, that gives them long haul and high capacity short haul potential from MAN at least.

May LS pick up SSH again? Maybe start NBE? or Cape Verde? All up and coming destinations.

Facelookbovvered 8th Aug 2014 05:25

EK77WNCL
 
Sounds very high risk to me, long haul start up costs are eye watering, its reported that Norwegian have been losing a $1m a day during the first 1/4 on its long haul operations not helped of course by being plagued with problems on its new Dream liner fleet.

Jet2 have been very successful at doing what they do best and their priority IMOH should be reducing their average fleet age to <20 years

OntimeexceptACARS 8th Aug 2014 11:55

Looks like Glasgow going up from five B738 to seven next summer. Anyone confirm?

VickersVicount 8th Aug 2014 16:20

Yes, was always the plan for 6 in 2015. The query actually was whether 7 units are needed for the expansion albeit just on certain days new Prague, Rome reinstated, Murcia up etc.

Honiley 8th Aug 2014 18:02

Jet2 has no experience to be doing anything other than it is already! The company has some serious growing-up to do first!

Lord Spandex Masher 8th Aug 2014 18:20

Did it have any experience doing that before it, errrrr, started doing it?!

:D

HH6702 8th Aug 2014 21:12

new routes etc
 
Lord spandex masher .... I agree what experience did they have before?? None but they do a bloody good job at what they do now wth a good brand and a good package holiday and city break choice from northen airports!!
Long may it contiune!!!


Ek777wncl.... I agree I think jet2 is running out of options to expand .
I does need to look at other UK airpirts to base or move into new markets.

As you say NCL did have goa flights and others.
Often people say these flights won't sell... However how does anyone know this when they are never offered from local airports only LGW/MAN.
Looking at the past things have changed and people have changed.


Airports like NCL are shouting out for opertors to risk these new routes.
We aren't saying like you said weekly flights but short blocks of 4/5 flights throughtout the year to places like goa could well work!!!

Just look at the new york shopping trip!

Come on JET2 and others show willing and let's take the risk on new flights.
Make jet2 the brand that takes the risk and listens to the public and what they need.

I for one would love to go to goa from ncl

BFS Dude 8th Aug 2014 21:31

Jet2 at Belfast International Airport
 
Hello, Was looking at Jet2s timetable for Belfast International Airport and saw that on Tuesdays four aircraft are need for the morning time:

EXS361 Palma 07:00
EXS301 Alicante 07:30
EXS371 Las Palmas 09:30
EXS381 Tenerife: 10:00

Does anyone know what they are planning to do. Is it Three or Four based aircraft for 2015 as the rest of the week only needs three aircraft.

take-off 9th Aug 2014 06:57

With expansion at all the other bases , is anything ever going to happen at BLK ? When will they ever get a 3rd based aircraft , or if not some flights operated from other bases on a 'W' rotation , BLK has had new routes ,but it's usually means a reduction in flights to another destination, so not really expansion in that sense , can't see how they can grow pax numbers otherwise :(

EK77WNCL 9th Aug 2014 11:54

Unfortunately Jet2 did used to be the airline that would take the risks, try new things and often be better off for it, although it feels like they are giving up a bit recently, I hope it's just a spell and I do hope to see a widebody in Jet2 livery very soon. Despite what anyone else may have to say.

Ian Brooks 9th Aug 2014 12:16

Perhaps it`s just NCL as they seem to be doing OK else where, mind you they did say earlier that profits won`t be as big as expected this year
so they will tread a little careful for a while

Ian

SWBKCB 9th Aug 2014 12:43


Unfortunately Jet2 did used to be the airline that would take the risks, try new things and often be better off for it
In what way have they been innovative? (and don't say shopping trips to New York...)

The initial development at Leeds was significant, but elsewhere they seem to have had a conservative approach, both in terms of fleet and routes - trying what has worked for others. Also, remember that their expansion to NCL, BFS and EDI were underpinned by significant mail/freight contracts (the rumour at NCL when the combi's moved in was that they could fly around empty all day and still make money).

Don't get me wrong, this is a good thing - I like airlines that act sensibly, keeps people in work.

anothertyke 9th Aug 2014 13:52

I remember a lot of talk ten years ago about how the market would end up with legacies, easyjet and ryanair. Well Jet2 have shown that there was space to enter in the North and Midlands, the combis gave them 24 hours to achieve their planned rotations, their strategy gave them enough in hand to run 20 year old planes, they at least tried a mixture of 1 to 1.5 hour legs to AMS, CDG etc together with the longer trips, they developed Jet 2 Holidays as a pretty good portal, they achieved enough trust and credibility to do deals with independent tour operators. Put those things together and it was quite an enterprising strategy, not quite what anyone else was doing. These longer haul destinations --they would need to enter that market probably with 3 767s and I just don't see they would have any competitive advantage over TUI or THC nor where the year round markets would be out of LBA,EMA,NCL etc.

VickersVicount 9th Aug 2014 17:20

whos to say someone won't just swallow up the profitable sections of the Jet2 (Monarch and the likes) business and leave still just leave the legacies EZY and FR ? I think that was a much longer term prediction which still has every chance of coming to fruition.

Artie Fufkin 9th Aug 2014 20:02


whos to say someone won't just swallow up the profitable sections of the Jet2 (Monarch and the likes) business
It’s a strange blindness that seems to affect many people. Look at Monarch’s and Jet2’s respective accounts. Who is more likely to gobble up each other’s business? Now that Monarch’s owner has refused to bail out the business is it not surely a matter of time? Their continuing losses have been in the hundreds of millions for some years now and yet people still look to the previous heritage of the company rather than the realistic forward position of the business.

Jet2 issued a warning, stating that profits may not be as high as previously expected and everyone seems to see crisis, whereas Monarch lost another 14 odd million last year, on top of two years of 50M+ losses and yet no one sees the very obvious looming crisis of a cash poor, loss making airline being refused a bailout in late summer.

JonnyH 9th Aug 2014 20:15

Jet2 have had a remarkable rise despite the profit warnings this year. I think they will probably continue at the same level for many years. But long haul would be a step too far. Like previously stated, they're doing what an other airlines are not doing and that's making money.

But long haul would be a huge risk. If and when they lower there fleet age they'll be in a strong position - then they could look at strengthening it and looking at other market propositions like long haul. I would expect the next few years to be interesting with some of the 757s and 737s coming to the end of the road.. Some which are owned solely by LS.

SWBKCB 9th Aug 2014 20:19

VV's point is that there is still time for the legacies and EZY and RYR to take out the medium sized players such as MON and LS, not LS vs MON.

moving way off topic, but this sort of monolithic consolidation then just leads to gaps that the small, more innovative guys move into, who then grow into medium sized companies and then....


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