Not sure if this has been picked up on yet but Minoan Air is suspending operations from the Oxford from the 5 th August

See previous page...

It seems Minoan pulled out because of a row with management at Kidlington.

Minoan Air pulls out of Oxford Airport after row with management (From Oxford Mail)

Dub
 

Route already closed

6000 pax on 500 flights - eeek. Average 12 pax on a 50 seat aircraft.

This whole thing must surely have been some kind of "accounting vehicle" to allow them to run up some costs in an EU country outside Greece, or something similar.

However I hear tourism in Crete is booming this year so maybe they have something better to go back to - and good luck to them, there was never anything for them here.

NS

Did Oxford increase RFFS to cover the Minoan air flights?

I'm still waiting to hear where the proposal of orange A319's thru Kidlington came from?

I'd be interested to know how many people in the Oxford area

a) know there is an airport there at all and

b) there is the chance of regular airline flights from it

@ The Best Protector - yes RFFS CAT is increased at times when the MAV F50 operates. Fire CAT is often increased to accommodate the larger biz jets as well as the commercial operators

Funny stuff going on:

Trucks 'halt plane take-off' in airport contract dispute (From Oxford Mail)

Minoan
 

Not convinced if adding capacity on two of the busiest city pairs (LON-DUB and LON-EDI) was such a good idea bearing in mind that DUB and EDI are already linked to most "London" airports (including LHR, the nearest to OXF) by various different carriers.

If trying to attract business from beyond the immediate Oxford area, should they have looked at destinations not available from LHR such as INV, JER, LPL, NQY, etc. and/or destinations that can be awkward rail or road journeys, like NWI?

Either way, new startups need to be promoted and heavily adverised, that much, at least, should be obvious.

A new unknown operator, flying from an airport that people are not aware that it offers pax flights, without any advertising....

Afraid that I TOLD YOU SO is the only answer.... The only surprise is that they had the balls (money) to do it for so long.... The only thing I did not expect was the ending.. by blocking in the aircraft and few remaining passengers... :\

And that's the way to really pi$$ off your few passengers.

Quote: "A new unknown operator, flying from an airport that people are not aware that it offers pax flights, without any advertising...."

A bit reminiscent of Brighton City Airways' ESH-POX route which lasted for just a few weeks earlier this year.

Frank - you are being unfair on Brighton City Airways. They lasted much longer than a few weeks. They lasted 2 months !

Commercially both Brighton City and Minoan may have been a disaster, but I have reservations about criticising these start-ups too much - if it wasn't for those entrpreneurs who are willing to put up their cash and give it a go, then the larger airlines of Europe would be much more slow moving and stodgy. A company can subscribe to the latest and greatest management theories, but ultimately fear (of competition) and greed (for cash) is what drives shareholders and senior managers - the possibility of entrepreneurs setting up in competition keeps those basal emotions alive. The losses by a small entrepreneur may be measurable and observable - but the gains through competition from increased efficiency by a much larger rival may well be both much larger and also impossible to measure or observe publicy.

At the very least, Minoan have shown that there is potential demand for an Oxford-Edinburgh route (CAA stats show with very little public advertising they managed 14 pax per flight in June) - it just needs an airline with a 50-seater and better marketing to get it going.

weren't there often just single figures on that route ?

Funny Stuff Going on
 

You mean the directors of British Airways, Air France, Easyjet, to name but three, had underpants turning a shade of brown because some tin-pot outfit had started operating Shoreham-by-Sea to Pontoise with a Let410?

Yeah right, and I guess Aer Lingus's and Ryanair's revenues took a tumble when another tin-pot outfit with Fokkers started a DUB route out of Kidlington?

Way too funny :)

That is if these guys are reading Pprune too! That was the only way the outside world found out these flights where operating:E

Minoan very quietly ended their flights from Kidlington last night. Anyone know how the loads were in the final weeks? Any sign of a replacement? I know Oxford and Aer Arann were very close to finalising things when Minoan announced their expansion into Oxford.

But is there any actual evidence to suggest that Aer Arran were close to finalising a deal at Oxford or was it just a rumour in the first place!

I would think it was the latter.

As a booked passenger I had an email from them this morning:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Minoan Air announces the termination of Edinburgh and Dublin services from the 5th of August 2013.
All fares will be refunded by automatic transfer to your credit card account used for the payment.
The refund procedure is already in progress so it is not mandatory to contact our reservations department.
However, if you have any enquiries please send us an e-mail at [email protected].
Please, accept our sincere apologies for the inconvenience we have caused to your travel plans.

Yours sincerely,
Call Centre
[email protected]


My refund came a couple of weeks ago without me even requesting it, must say I'm very happy with their communication on the matter. Just a shame that I've missed out on the F50 :sad:

Minoan Air Oxford/Kidlington termination
 

The Minoan Air site says this:

Quote
Termination of Oxford Schedule on 4th August 2013
After 5 months of faultless services, 99.75% punctuality, nearly 500 flights, more than 6.000 carried passengers and well over one million pounds that were invested in the operation, Minoan regrets to announce the termination of its schedule services from Oxford to Edinburgh and Dublin, due to our disagreement with Oxford Airport management on specific terms of cooperation deemed imperative for the viability of our flights.
Following the fall out of our discussions, the airport had been given advance notice of our intentions thus allowing adequate time to explore all avenues to replace the carrier with another operator.
Unquote

6,000 pax divided by 500 flights gives a pretty dismal 12 pax/flight, about the same number on an Edinburgh - Oxford flight we took at the end of May. Did Minoan ever advertise?

Summer (charter) flights to Jersey using Blue Islands ATR42 start May 10, to mid-September. Once weekly (Saturday) arr OXF 0910, dep 0940.

Will they need ballast to trim the ATR42?

Phileas - we're talking about a 46-seat aircraft flying once per week for 18 weekends over the summer. Assuming everyone does a return rather than just one-ways, that gives a maximum of about 1,600 passengers for the whole summer.

In summer 2011 when the economy was a little weaker, the route managed 1,489 charter passengers. In summer 2012, Citywing on the route managed 3,590 scheduled passengers

Oxford-Jersey is being attempted on a very modest basis. There really isn't a need to be quite so negative about something quite so small.

Don't feed the troll

Shame they let him back.

Thanks for "jumping down my throat"!

I presume the figures quoted of previous operations were achieved utilising smaller equipments on a more regular basis.

Take the NQY operation as an example, a route I know from old, one might easily and regularly transport 120+ passengers a day each way to/from LON but it wouldn't work putting a 120+ seater jet on the route once a day, or indeed a B747 on the route twice a week, the only way those figures may be achieved is by operating 3 or 4 services daily on appropriately sized equipment.

It's an old-fashioned concept that these modern day statisticians, it seems, don't grasp, it's called "operating the services when the travelling public actually want to travel"!.

Now back on to the subject of Kidlington, let it not be missed that they announced once weekly PMI services utilising S2000 equipment in recent years, it never got going.

Even more ridiculous than that was their announcement of NYC Xmas shopping charters from/to Kidlington and as for the short lived EDI and DUB services, well the less said about them the better.

The problem is, and shall always be, trying to round up enough punters if the equipment is oversized for the catchment area so what catchment area does Kidligton actually have?

Just down the M40 is the world's busiest airport, move more than just a little eastbound and one falls within LTN's catchment area, move north then BHX's catchment area, south then down the A34 for a host of C.I. services from SOU, south-west then BRS and west then Staverton, who it seems, agree with my belief that smaller equipments need to be utilsed more of the time to make such a route viable.

The problem will be that Kidlingtom are trying to fill 46 seats at 8 o'clock on a Saturday morning and from a very limited catchment area, I suggest that, at best, the operation will struggle but then what do I know, I'm just a troll ... apparently :)

I grant you that there are a number of other airports near Oxford. However, Jersey has no flights to either Heathrow or Luton now that Flybe have dropped the LTN-JER route, so Kidlington's catchment area on a Jersey route is not quite as constrained as might initially be imagined, unlike the greater rivalry to EDI or DUB. In June 2013 (i.e. shoulder season), the now closed LTN-JER managed 1,650 pax - in comparison, CI Travel are supplying just 460 seats of capacity for a 5-Saturday month.

If Gloucestershire can support a 2x weekly Fri+Sun Jersey route despite competition from Bristol and Birmingham, then it seem quite likely that Oxford has a fair chance with a 1x weekly ATR-42 charter taking people for 7 or 14 nights holiday.

Remember we're talking about a seasonal 1x weekly puddle jumping prop on summer Saturday to a leisure-centric destination run by a well-established Jersey tourism operator - somewhat lower risk than a daily operation from a carrier with no local brand recognition.

Phileas, I'm often inclined to agree with you but on this occasion you might be barking up the wrong tree a bit. As davidjohnson6 points out this has a maximum capacity of 1600 over an entire summer - once a week on a 46 seat ATR 42 not being what one might call a high volume operation! Take your point on timings, but the fact is it has worked before on a very similar basis. Similar flights to JER from a seemingly bewildering array of regional airports (like Gloucestershire as discussed but also Cambridge, Humberside and others) which are operated on an almost identical basis (seasonal, Saturday-only) except sometimes using somewhat larger aircraft (78 seat BE DH8Qs). And yet they come back, year-on-year.

Given that this is such a similar operation which has worked in the past, what's the problem?

What use are flights if people don't know about them?

I recall mentioning here last year that I met some people from Swindon and despite being only about 30 miles away from Oxford/Kiddlington none of them knew about the now cancelled scheduled services and only one I think knew there was any sort of airport there.

In theory there is enough money in that area to sustain scheduled services, but if people don't know about them or the airport then there is absolutely no chance.

Aero Mad,

DJ6 talks of 18 weekends and you interpret 18 weekends as an entire summer!

Well it has long been recognised that any summer season starts at Easter (19/20 April this year) thus 18 weekends terminates right in the midst of the school holidays @ 16/17 August!

Stop being a statistician trying to make the numbers look more attractive, the operator are offering a very limited service for a limited period with, for the catchment area, a large aeroplane.

You compare to Staverton, Staverton has a history of scheduled services, crikey back in the 1970's I would be controlling DC3's from the tower at Lyneham of DC3's to/from Staverton and the islands.

You compare to HUY, I worked for Air UK back in the 1980's when every summer Saturday and Sunday we would have Fokker's plodding the islands routes and, for the route still to be going to this day, might be credited that it is a long established route.

Cambridge, something of a chequered history with scheduled services, Suckling etc. but at least it has a history.

Kidlington ... Well it's a flying club come wannabee airport, charters to NYC and all that, I've got better things to do than occupy my time that discuss/ argue this point, I think it is DJ6 that has a habit of posting CAA stats, let's discuss after those have been posted and if I'm wrong I shall gladly hold my hands up.

Best Regards
The Troll :)

This is an important point with regard to shorthaul flights, and the reason, for example, why LHR's capacity problems cannot be resolved simply by using larger aircraft as suggested by some.



Minoan were doomed doing OXF-DUB and OXF-EDI, especially without advertising, because they were up against neighbouring airports doing those routes with way more frequency.

JER may be another matter entirely.

CAA route stats for OXF - Annual 2013
 

The CAA has today released the full confirmed route stats for the UK's airports for the year 2013 .... the OXF figures are as follows:

EDINBURGH 4,061
DUBLIN 2,174
ISLE OF MAN 133
BASLE MULHOUSE 92
JERSEY 92
MAASTRICHT 72
LUTON 23
PARIS (LE BOURGET) 18

TOTAL 6,665