Well said Roy. Its the decision makers that have made the mistakes in lack of preperation. Using the excuse of it doesnt happen that often to warrant a massive outlay on equipment, didnt this happen in Feb last year? So in the last year approx 2 months of flights have been effected by adverse weather due to the runway being covered in snow.....

Apparently in T2 yesterday the baggage handlers were mucking in and clearing stands which is very commendable and shows the good attitude of the people outside the Ivory towers of Man. Only thing is there was nobody removing bags from belts causing massive hold ups back inside the terminal.

This is not a go at anyone who works at Man out on the ground!

Purplehelmet
 

Info obtained from NATS

nats
 

thanks eric.:ok:

Even more amazing is they have actually managed i heard to wrinkle some of the members of the trumpton fire brigade out of their nice cosy fire station and they were also mucking in, must have been the first time for most of them that they were actually doing something usefull:ooh:

Airport Firemen helping
 

Actually incorrect, the guys have been helping since last week, I have seen them with brushes and shovels clearing paths.

Using Fire and rescue staff can only be done sparingly as it can have an effect on the fire category of the airport.

"Using Fire and rescue staff can only be done sparingly as it can have an effect on the fire category of the airport."

Does the category of the airport really matter if it is shut??? (I know it is open at the moment)

Sorry but the firemen can sit there all day & night if they want to, just as long as they are on the job when they are needed!!!:ugh:
They have a very specialised job and the drill and practice they do DOES pay dividends when incidents happen.:=
Perhaps you think that the pilots are just playing with a fancy ps3 when they are in a simulator?:rolleyes:

Well said Tulsablue. Smudgethecat seems to have the same idea as managers do that if someone does not actually appear to be doing something, anything, s/he is a skiver. Yet when the fan turns brown and a real emergency occurs it is the performance of the emergency services that comes under scrutiny and reasons for delay are examined. The Madrid tragedy of 2008 comes to mind. I was astounded at the speed with which the emergency services responded, considering the crash was outside the fence and in difficult terrain.
Perhaps Smudge would like to share with us the extent to which he has trained, or is prepared to, to brave his sorry ass in danger conditions. Given the choice between him/her and his/her ilk and the "trumpton fire brigade" I know which I would choose if in the sh1t.

A quiz for you Smudge -

1) How many seconds does it take to get an entire fire crew into a fire truck and ready to respond?

2) How many lives could be saved in each of those seconds?

Problem is trumpton are only there to satisfy the CAA , there a bunch of well meaning amatuers playing at being firefighters, ive seen them in action a few times and its like something from dads army TBH, luckily the only time it could have got serious the pros in the form of the Greater Manchester fire brigade arrived smartish and quickly took control of the situation

Hi,

Anyone in the know wish to confirm/deny that the current mess at EGCC has snowballed (parden the pun) from the airport using cheaper de-iceing fluid prior to christmas that simply froze and has left lots of the remote stands un-usable as a direct result of them trying this ??

I know BA have been begging all day for MAN to take diversions from LHR/LGW - in other words, 'here's a big bag of cash for you' - only for the airport to refuse on all occasions !!

smudge
 

And your qualification to present this well argued assessment is? You trained with which fire brigade? Your position at the airport is? Background in aviation?

By the way there = they're. Sorry to be so pedantic.

96ER
could be the airport taking revenge.
tower 1

Manchester - 7
 

I believe someone has just discovered the solution to the 'no diverts' rule . . declare a PAN.

Hope no-one thinks they're getting off here, there isnt a hotel room to be had between here and Carlisle.

T-M-Deicer

Wow thats a bit of a scathing statement isn't it? I've been a firefighter for 28 years (both airport and local authority). Unfortunatly to the untrained eye operations by any fire service can be a bit baffling ,this is especially so during training exercises. I can assure you that all firefighters are well trained and fully professional (whether it be airport or local authority). If they were not i assure you that it would'nt just be the snow that would close the airport. So I suggest that you keep your unqualified and may I say slanderous opinion to yourself.
And before you ask no I dont work for Manchester Airport Fire service!!

Just a quick question please.
There was a punter on Sky news bemoaning the aircraft and the fact that 5 AMERICAN aircraft arrived, turned round and went. Was this true?.
If so do they have slightly different rules?

Roy H

If you work for an airline tell me why dont they have their own de icing rigs, staff etc so they don't have to rely on the handling agents?. Why - cost and chances of it happening - couple of times a year.

I work for an airline, we have our own handling staff, own de icing equipment, (that look like fire engines not cherry pickers) so we have more control over our destiny. Look inside as well as outside :\

Manchester - 7
 

'One rule for one, one rule for another'? . .in aviation?!!! . .SURELY not!! :E
Airport 'prioritises' one airline over another in 'crisis times' (as i'm told we're in). Yesterday it was 2 Middle Eastern carriers that were the chosen ones . .perhaps today our American cousins came out of the hat 1st?

T-M-D

US734 was waiting nearly an hour (with engines running) for a stand to be cleared of ice/snow. Eventually used an adjacent stand that was vacated by SQ.

Go figure. :hmm:

To be fair smudge no ones claiming the airport fire brigade are as professional or as well trained as the big boys who are doing it for real every day 27/7, the airport guys are there to give first aid if you like until the pros arrive

Just wondering...is Manchesters weather equipment playing up....currently showing -12oC...yet 30 miles down the road at EGGP its -2oC, also Doncaster is -2oC...is 10oC in 30 miles possible .???

Simonchowder
 

I think you may be wrong there, edmond64 could clarify, but while a/p fire service may be there to deal with initial problem, and are equipped to do so, it in no way means they are any less professional. As far as I am aware their job is to contain fire and deal with immediate threat threat to life until other units arrive, that is not a lesser skill but a different one. They should be considered pros along with their non-airport colleagues. Remember, these are the guys who will enter the burning a/c if need be and assist evac. Would you or Smudge do that?

Now perhaps Smudge would like to ponder that while he gets back to his de-icing, baggage handling, floor sweeping, whatever. I make that assumption as they are hardly intelectually challenging roles.

We queried the temperature on final, -11c quoted.

On rollout, we showed -9c, so not too bad.

Got to my car and it was -7c, dropped to -8c around the Trafford Centre, rose dramatically by the poo farm, then dropped again :sad:

-4c over the tops and -6c in 'Arrergate.

G & T cool though :ok:

-16 in Styal, which is right on top of the airport.I really dont think the Airport and surrounding areas have ever seen temperatures so low.

As for the 'not accepting divs' scenario ? Well done MAPLC another spectacular own goal, they obviously dont need the money........!

I dont think diverts make much money, all that is in it for the airport authority is the commission on the handling, fuel uplift and the departure / landing fee. The PAX if offloaded will be whisked straight through the terminal and wont spend any money. I would suggest deicing vacant stands properly to accommodate them would burn up that income.

So in these conditions its probably more cost effective to turn the diverts away. Remember the fiasco with the KLM MD11 a couple of weeks back ? multiply that by say 10 diverts and you have a god almighty mess that the Airport PR people would prefer to avoid. So in my opinion probably more trouble than they are worth.

Wow, I thought it felt cold this morning!!!! Its not often you have to apply temp corrections to your minima/etc coming back into the UK!! :eek:

Mark - I remember Jan 1981 when we got -24c at Middlewich - the antifreeze in my cars radiator froze!!

You are certainly on the right lines. The airport fire service are trained to the same basic standard as the local authority(eg. Fire behaviour, breathing apparatus, search techiques etc... the list is endless)at this point they take slightly different paths. The A/P firemen specalise in a/c fires where as the LAFB would concentrate on structural and RTC'S etc..If the unthinkable did happen the a/p fire service are the main players and will control fire fighting op's as they are the specalists and have the right equipment, the LAFB on the other hand would support the airport fire service by supplying water and man power to were it was needed.
Also there is an overlap, a secondary role for the AP fire service is to provide cover for the whole estate(terminal, hangars etc..) For small incidents they will attend and then hand it over to the LAFB as their main priority is the airfield. So dont knock them, they dont recieve the same amount of calls as the LAFB (WHICH IS A GOOD THING) but one day you may thank them!!!

Having had the services of the MAN Airport Fire Team quite recently for a situation that I will not elucidate on further, I am appalled at the comments made by some posters on here.
I know not if they are commercial pilots, if they are then they should be ashamed. Because the one day they put out the call, they will expect MANFIRE to be there, primed and ready. They will expect them to pull them out of the poo where possible and then meet at the Romper for a celebratory tipple.

If the posters are spotters and simmers, could you please talk about things that you may know about, like numbers of rivets and tail registrations!

No, the Fire Service at the airport are NOT the 'normal' fire service, nor are they meant to be. They are however all firepersons with experience from 'normal' fire services. And they train for a specific set of scenarios that hopefully will not be needed.

Frankly, I am ashamed that anybody linked to the airport has started a debate like this. Please go back to discussing how many new routes to Entebbe might/might not be starting!
:=

Well said sir, a guy that I used to work with was one of the firemen involved in the rescue of pax from the Airtours B737 a few years back and as far as I am concerned is/was a hero and went far further than the call of duty.

Ian

If the posters are spotters and simmers, could you please talk about things that you may know about, like numbers of rivets and tail registrations!

Chimp.

ManofMan

If you wish to get personal, then by all means carry on old chap. Sticks and stones and all that.

Sorry if you don't like my description but unfortunately there are plenty of people on here that fit that description exactly.

Grow up!

Signed - A happy safe chimp :mad:

If you wish to get personal, then by all means carry on old chap. Sticks and stones and all that.

Sorry if you don't like my description but unfortunately there are plenty of people on here that fit that description exactly.

Grow up!

Signed - A happy safe chimp

Sorry old bean but I think you actually started the personal bit taking a swipe as you did, of course you are going to back up the Fire team, as you said they got you out of a sticky one. That however does not mean that everyone should share your enthusiasm, thats why we have freedom of speech in blighty, and it certainly does not give you the right to come on here and take a swipe a "spotters and simmers".

Quite right, i know the majority of spotters/simmers are odd balls but were British for gods sake and every British chap has the right to collect aircraft/locomotive reg numbers or play at being a pilot, or a train driver for that matter if he so wishes .

Though operating from MAN has been a nightmare in my opinion for the last few months, I'm pretty sure it's absurd to liken it's fire service to "Dad's Army". As a newbie F/O on a fairly reliable aircraft I have not yet experienced a real engine fire (or burning of any part of the a/c for that matter), but I would be EXTREMELY shocked if the fire service of a large, busy international airport such as MAN couldn't be trusted to do their job properly. I suspect (though I don't agree with his way of putting it) that flyinthesky is somewhat correct - in that such writings are conjecture.

Please someone tell me I'm right - otherwise my job just got a whole lot scarier!

1234

I really don't mind if people think I was having a go at a particular section of society, but the problem with freedom of speech is that conjecture creeps in and people with a little knowledge start to make big statements.

I am entirely happy for people to count rivets/ collect tail nos/ belly button gaze, however those same people should be very careful making wide sweeping ill-informed assertions about something they probably don't know that much about. Just because the fire service aren't seen an awful lot isn't exactly a bad thing. Personally, my pax don't see me handling an engine fire/ shutdown a whole lot either (thankfully). But it DOESN'T mean that I can't if I had to. And sitting in an office/ viewing park or wherever will never qualify you to judge. But it doesn't stop me waving at you as I go by either!

CJ1234 - rest easy, The guys are swift, thorough and know exactly what they are doing. They are also one of the friendliest bunch of people on the field.

I think the thread can return to the normal airfield bashing now :confused: Sometimes, the commercial plane drivers just get a little bit fed up with assumptions being made:ok:

why are there so many moaners about snow clearance in this part of the world. Gatwick has been closed on and off for the last two days ,go on their airfield forum site not one complaint, even though some of their problems are similer to ours, lack of stands and anti/deicing fluid.
Where I sit in my warm tower I have seen a lot of people working their socks of in the coldest of weather -12 this morning at 9.00am to keep the airfield going. These are freak weather conditions so all I can say to you moaners out there is give it a rest you are becoming pretty boring.

I love doing gmc

smudgethecat and manofman you are a pair of clowns!

flyinthesky - well said:ok:

Could everybody just calm down please. In a way I kicked this whole thing when Smudgethecat made a comment about the "Trumpton fire brigade" finally being seen to be doing something when involved in snow clearing and I responded as I thought he was an absolute tw@t with no idea as to what a/p firemen did. He compounded it by a further post. I was annoyed that he/she posted with all appearance of an a/p employee. I still think he/she is a tw@t. See rest of thread.

I am not a pilot, simply ex-RAF aircraft tech so know what these guys do, sort of. I have also been known to twiddle a joystick now and again. What I am trying to say is, if you do not understand the function of one part of a/p personnel do not take verbal pot shots at hem. I notice that Smudge seems to be keeping his head down, so he should, but please don't have a go at others, let the spotters spot and the simmers sim, as long as they don't start insulting we should not.

If you happen to know Smudge perhaps you could identify to the "Trumpton fire brigade", I am sure they can educate him better than any us can.

Manofman -

Would you like to state why that statement brings your reply, it is conditional. As you did not post re firemen it does not affect you unless you are self concious about your pastime/hobby. As an aside, chimps are very intelligent and have been known to be fascinated by objects flying overhead.

Spotters
 

flyinthesky, whilst you have just as much right as everybody else to vent your anger on this forum, please lay off the spotters.:=
I say this as a spotter of nearly 30 years. I think you will find that most spotters are well informed about the work of airlines, airports etc.
I have nothing but respect for the firefighters and yes ok pilots:}
Yes I'm an idiot to stand on the mound on the coldest of days, but there is something about those tins that you fly that has kept me hooked for the last 30 years and could it not be true that the very people that got you so angry are from within the aviation industry.
Last point. Real spotters don't wave...:8:ok:

E.F

Manchester Dec & 2009 Traffic
 

Pax Dec 09 - 1,103,836 down 12.87%
Movements Dec 09 - 11,014 down 15.48%
Freight Dec 09 - 9,412 up 3.45%


Pax 2009 total - 18,838,733 down 12.00%
Movements 2009 total - 172,485 down 15.10%