I have made my choice
 

Despite being a gold-card holder with One World, I've decided to boycott the bastards and have booked myself onto Etihad for a MAN-SYD journey later this month. I'll avoid that hell-hole called LHR, and I won't miss it one bit. And the fares were very attractive too - QF, CX, BA and JAL were all quoting GBP5,500-ish for a 1-way J-class fare; Etihad from Manchester charged me GBP 2,400-ish and I also get a limousine at each end to get me to/from the airport.

Last time I flew to SYD in February, I booked onto QF2 from LHR with a BA shuttle from MAN. What happened? The shuttle was delayed for 4 hours and I missed my flight. BA didn't care a fig and if it wasn't for my One World status I'd have been left floundering.

Incidentally, I flew on the BA MAN-JFK service in May in J class, and there were 5 empty seats in the cabin. In World Traveller Plus there were two empty seats, which suggests that premium ticket sales weren't as disastrous as is being made out. In fact, World Traveller Plus would have been full except for my parent's failure to make the flight - they had booked onto the same flight in order to accompany my wife and I to New York, but a family emergency meant they had to cancel at the last minute. BA decided not to refund their fares, so there's a few more quid in their coffers.

I won't be connecting via LHR again when it comes to long-haul travel. I might miss out on some One World points, but I'm going to start building them up with other airlines.

Ethid v LHR
 

Perhaps the above post proves the point againast MAN/BHX etc.

Why are they charging such high fares at LHR. That is where the pax are and the money made.

A non S/E poster but facing facts.


Centre cities

Skipness, you get real. I was dealing with the problems generated by the attitude of BA and its predecessors long before your daddy knew what a twinkle in his eye was, let alone dreamt of you.

BA did not screw Prestwick. The airport is 30 miles from its population centre and lost a great deal of relevance once the range of transatlantic aircraft increased and more when Abbotsinch was able to handle long range traffic.

As far as Manchester is concerned, the airport is 10 miles from the city and in the heart of a region with as many people within a 75 mile radius of the city centre as within 75 miles of Charing Cross (2001 census). The region is quite capable of generating long range traffic as can be seen by the healthy use of Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt, Dubai and Qatar as transit points.

No-one can blame foreign airlines, which provide direct services from MAN to their hub, for looking for connecting passengers. At least they have the sense to realise there is both point to point and transit traffic.

What BA, which still claims to be Britain's premier airline when it promotes itself around the world, has done is to follow in the footsteps of its constituent antecedents. It has decided not just to treat the provinces as foreign territory from which to feed its hub and ignore the potential to compete for long haul and European direct services, it has deliberately put pressure on its alliance partners to reduce Manchester and other non Heathrow airports' services - e.g. AA no longer serves Dallas - Manchester which in the 1990s had an MD11 service, and has reduced a daily MAN-ORD service - twice a day in summer - to 5 days a week this winter.

Worse, QANTAS, which had excellent VFR traffic and operated over a number of European points to MAN during the period of its service was, as soon as BA took a large shareholding, forced to fly one Sydney service a day on from LHR to MAN instead of the flight over a European point. This looked good at the time for MAN as the airline stated that the reason was it was cheaper to keep the aircraft on the ground at MAN than LHR - thus more revenue for MAN.

What they didn't say was that the Sydney -London service used was the busiest of the day, few Manchester passengers could get a booking as the computer gave the London pax priority and the sector to/from MAN often had less than 50 pax, compared to the 150-170 generated regularly when the service was flown over a European point and the computer did not discriminate against MAN bookings.

Of course the BA bean counters soon pointed to the poor performance ex MAN and pulled the service.

The MAN pax, denied access to the service when it was operating, quickly learned that SIA, Emirates and others offered not only another way to travel but often offered better on board service.

Thus MAN can now support Emirates, Qatar and Etihad, on which a good percentage of the passengers are heading down under.

But it doesn't end there. BA stil has enormous influence in the corridors of power. Its input into discussions on bilateral arrangements and access to the UK is listened to and often acted upon. There is still a great deal of left over belief in Whitehall and Westminster that BA is still the chosen instrument of British civil air transport regardless of the fact that it has been a private company for over 20 years and should have no more or less weight given by government to its needs and opinions as, say, Highland Airways.

Having said all that, BA aren't the only culprits when it comes to screwing Manchester - and other provincial - passengers. Over the last 3 decades I've repeatedly tried to have airline and holiday company CEOs and marketeers explain why Manchester inclusive tour passengers are surcharged on flights to North America compared to Gatwick, when the distances involved are the same or less - with the Gatwick aircraft often overflying MAN on their direct flights.

Manchester as a city has changed beyond recognition in the last 30 years -particularly since the IRA bomb.

Over the next decade there will be a continuation of the growth in the migration of companies and institutions to the North for many reasons - a growth which will pervade through and beyond the current economic difficulties.

It will be very interesting to see just how long it will take the likes of BA to get the message - or how long before they miss out big style.

Looking back 40 years and more the Southern wiseacres postulated that airports like Manchester would never prosper or support anything more than a handful of services. Even a Labour Minister in Wilson's government, who should have known better, told a Manchester Airport Committee meeting in 1968 that the airport couldn't expect much growth over the coming 20 years as there would be no demand from Northerners to travel.

So, before advising those of us who've been there, done it all and got the t-shirt, having sat through days of meetings, heard every argument and who, against all the odds, have succeeded in developing travel to/from MAN, to "get real" you might just think that some people know a great deal more of the background to the reality than you and have years of experience of watching the fiddling of figures, the twisting of arguments and the straightforward statement that Heathrow comes first, middle and last, regardless of the wishes of a vast proportion of the UK travelling public

Good point.

Unlike the shandy drinkin southern jessies who with a chip on both shoulders have a much more well balanced personality.

Anyway enough of the name calling.

AA are to bring forward their resumption of daily flights. :ok:

As this is presumably a BA code share, what did they offer you when your connecting service was delayed?

My point about PIK was that BA prevented anyone else setting up at PIK forced SAS and KLM out and then left the airport for dead in Spring 1982 when they left themselves.

OK I get it. You're very old and wise. Actually you do make good points. As an aside, it is looking rather likely that the BA LGW services are soon going to be dropped or operated by flybe.

Old, well late middle aged(!). Wise, well wise enough to have got out of the rat race but any wisdom I do have is more in terms of knowledge and hard won experience.

I firmly believe that BA will eventually withdraw totally from Sussex Regional aka Gatwick. The reasons are myriad if you look closely at BA's philosophy.

As for Prestwick, I don't understand your premise. SAS, KLM,TCA/Air Canada, BA, Pan American only needed PIK (and SNN for that matter) when they needed to refuel.

I don't recall SAS and KLM having fifth freedom rights ex PIK - though AC and PA did.

Manchester Airport runs online game to promote shops
 

Shops, Shops, Shops....MAN is as bad as my missus !

Story from UK Airport News...

"Manchester Airport is running a Christmas themed online game to increase awareness of its retail outlets following a £80m investment...."

...story continued but I lost the will to read !

Dallas from Manchester didn't last long, and never had an MD11 on it.

Manchester was, however, the first european airport to see AA MD11 service, from Chicago.

Regards

Mike

I'm sure SAS did as the flight was moved to GLA and operated with a DC9. They have long and bitter memories in Ayrshire. I agree that most of BA at Gatwick has little future. Ahhh I remember the MD11s on the AA54 / 55.
Do we know if the ORD flight is going to 2 x B757s for certain next summer?

AA still got it as a daily 763 on their website.

Aeulad,

You are quite right about the MD 11s - my screw up whilst editing prior to posting.

The line should read:

e.g. AA no longer serves Dallas - Manchester and has reduced a daily MAN-ORD service - which in the 1990s had an MD11 service, twice a day in summer (2nd flight a 767) - to 5 days a week this winter.

BTW the Dallas flight operated for a couple of years and AA also were pressured by BA into dropping MAN - JFK which benefitted CO.

Was there any reason in particular for the row of BMI Airbuses parked up by the freight sheds on friday evening? I have never seen them parked here before.

Just to chuck my hat into the poor treatment of the Airport by BA debate.......

We are flying out to Faro with friends in Feb 09. They are travelling up from Portsmouth so we decided to look at booking a LOCO from the London Area. We found to our suprise that BA from Gatwick were the cheapest available at just £55 return (RYR were the cheapest based just on a fare but then throw in the extras :()

After finding this great fare we looked at booking MAN - LGW. To our amazement it came in at £85 each way per person, £170 return.

This was four months ago. I was amazed at how much the 45 minute domestic sector was compared to the two and a half hour flight to Faro from Gatwick.

Were now driving down and staying overnight at LGW. Damm ripoff London Airways.

Steve

is there any truth in the rumour that DL are to start BOS-SNN/MAN?

Would be a great addition to the T2 line up, and obviously has the feed into the NW network at BOS.
NW did want to launch MAN-BOS when they were independant but never got round to it, so could this be the start?

I would be surprised at BOS-SNN/MAN from DL. They have just announced their long haul updates and MAN did not get anything yet.

There is really no hubbing carriers at BOS. DL/NW merger may make them biggest (not 100%), but it is certainly not a hub as we would call it.

I would think that up gauging aircraft into MAN maybe next, to pick up some PAX affected by BA/BMI, and hopefully a DTW-MAN leg.

Just my 2 cents from this side.

The only long haul from either airline is BOS-AMS on NWA ( and that's a recent KLM replacement I think.) I would say no, especially via Shannon (!) Who told you that one?

Heard it through the grapevine. It wouldnt be via SNN, there would be 1x daily SNN and 1xdaily MAN?

I live 35 miles from SNN as the 757 flies and the loss of the AA 757 BOS service came as a blow to SNN as loads were always good (can't comment on the yield).

This again was due to deals and alliances (AA/Aer Lingus) and now there are many times when Aer Lingus is full, very expensive or both on SNN-BOS and vv.

SNN - BOS is likely to be profitable May - October. The added cost of a MAN sector compared to extra income is questionable on a 757 but the extra seats on a 767-300 may just make such a route viable but I wouldn't put my last cent on it.

philbky

re:post #155

I commend you on a well written/sensible post

MM

Thank you mickyman.

Air Blue to cut Manchester Capacity
 

Air Blue will reduce their daily flight to 5 per week from Mid-December.

BHX5DME

Ironically Wed and Sat, the same days as PIA's ISB-LBA-ISB

Eastern Airways are to pull their scheduled services from Manchetser. After dropping the Manchester to Inverness service, the airline is pulling off the Manchester to London Stansted service from 28th November.

G'day Skip:

You asked: As this is presumably a BA code share, what did they offer you when your connecting service was delayed?

They told me to go back home and call BA to make new arrangements for the following day. Which I did; but the poor chap at BA said that he was unable to help and that I should go back to Ringway airport to re-arrange my travel for the next day. Naturally I was unimpressed at this shuttling back and forth, and made that clear. Credit to the bloke on the other end of the phone. He put me on hold and, after 30 minutes, had re-booked me onto another BA shuttle the following day, and a new QF flight from LHR-SYD. It was explained to me that he only did this due to my One World status. Which is nice for me, but a great pity for casual travellers who would otherwise be left in the lurch.

So I did get home to Sydney, but arrived a day late, which caused a few issues at work.

philbky - Many thanks for your articulate arguments outlined in posts 155 and 163. As a proud Mancunian and reasonably informed 'layperson' when it comes to aviation, I found your points very persuasive, well made and informative.

Cheers.

Thank you Anna's Dad

yep here here......to those comments Philbyk

AA 757 to MAN tomorrow?
 

FlightAware > Live Flight Tracker > American Airlines Inc. #54 > 18-Nov-2008 > KORD-EGCC

Is an AA 757 comming in tomorrow morning on the ORD route?

NO, it was showing as a 763.
Of further interest today, BMI flight to ORD, is listed as departed 3 mins. before AA,
and landed 40 mins. after AA at ORD.
Is the 763 that much faster than theA330,or is it down to different routings.
Tower

Hearing rumours about SIA pulling out next year unsubstantiated at the mo, anyone heard anything on this?.

zfw

SIA pulling out?!? Please no. Am using them over Xmas to Oz (more expensive than Thiefrow). When will this madness end?

It's an unsubstatiated rumour as likely to have come from someone bored, but with a fertile mind as much as from a reliable source.

Whilst this is a rumour network and the OP has stated that the story is unsubstantiated, it would be useful to know the source.

London Heathrow
 

B*gger LHR, I'd rather overnight via AMS anytime. UK airports are the pits.

Well said al446. Heathrow is a dump! Flew there last Friday - terminal fascilities are reasonable but apron side looks a slum ready for demolition! If I need to travel inter continental I'd go via Amsterdam in the absence of flights out of Manchseter.

BA never has had a commitment to Manchester or the region known as "not London". If one looks at the catchment area within 70 miles of Manchester there is surely potential to develop services particularly (apart from the current recession) across the Atlantic. Just looked at the Lufthansa website and they operate various services across the Ocean out of Munich which suggests a commitment to a comparable market to Man.

BMIs withdrawl from Manchester only adds salt to the wound.

But what is most galling are the adverts by both BA & BMi for "cheap" flights out of London to the USA. I recognise that to make a profit the routes will be partly dependent on business travellers but within the Manchester catchment area there are a significant number of business travellers who would happily fly from a regional airport if only they still had the choice and services were available. Isn't it ironic that Jet2 (admitedly a low cost carrier) is reporting satisfactory interest in their pending service to New York from LBA?

Lets hope a carrier takes up the challenge and establishes successful East Coast routes out of Man.

Like Newark you mean? *cough* Continental twice daily from Terminal 2.

We get it. You hate Heathrow and you have no grasp of the airline business. Apron side is a mess because they are expanding the EuroPier and building Terminal 5C.
Take some time and read through the 1000s of posts that tell you why Germany and the UK are different markets.Course perhaps you're right and all those airlines know nought. I suggest a letter.

Continental, American, Delta and USAirways!!!!! GEEEZZZ

The thing that I cant get my head around is this...

We all hear airline know it alls on this site forever bang on about how there are no high yeild passengers out of MAN (or anywhere else North of the Watford Gap for that matter). Well lets expand it a bit and say the Northwest in general.... Let me ask you this.

What choice do high yield pax have out of MAN?

Oh yeah, that's right, take away BA's JFK and BD's ORD (Antigua, Vegas and Barbados are leisure routes), and what are you left with? That's right, either a trip to LHR, CDG or AMS.... Perhaps if the airport got off their arse and quit charging airlines through the nose and started attracting proper scheduled carriers to the airport. You know, ones that actually offer the same level of services as London Deathrow, then perhaps, just mabey, us silly Northerners might actually BUY said services, because many of us BUY the same services from other airports!

Well said one echo!

Who cares if you hate Heathrow? A lot of people join the slagging wagon but how many people use it? Yes...more than everyone elses favourite hubs of AMS, CDG and FRA!

LHR may have had its bad press but it is now working a lot better and a T6 with a 3rd runway would put it up against ATL and ORD.

Boston & Miami are two glaring ommissions from the MAN - East coast portfolio.
Both of which could be served by American, rather than feed LHR offering a choice to the perceived wippet & ferret unwashed northerners.
Draw your own conclusions why they were withdrawn last time, but they were not that easy to book, routing via somewhere else (guess?) always came up first.

Does anybody have any proof of the so called 'London Airways' forcing AA to avoid MAN?

If not, which i presume, WW may have a few bones to pick with a few people on this forum. Slander is an expensive hobby! Even more than aviation!

I am so incredibly bored of Manchester fans with chips on their shoulders moaning about BA and BMI (and yes, my local airport of Manchester!). I believe whole heartedly in the idea of supply and demand- if the premium passengers are really there, as so many seem to claim, then some airline will see the potential and jump into these routes. It's quite telling that BA and BMI can't make longhaul from Manchester work and VS has not expanded beyond a handful of leisure routes. If you are right, there is no need to worry, as surely AF, LH or someone else will JUMP at such a profit-making option!

I've said it once and I'l say it again- BA does not owe anything to anyone other than its shareholders. These ideas of airline 'loyalty' are misplaced. Please can we stop BA-bashing (or BAshing, haha), as it's so tiresome to read.

On a positive note, its pleasing to see Easy expanding, albeit slowly at Manchester. I'm a tad surprised at only one daily frequency to Paris, but I guess that they want to test the waters first. Air Canada is more good news and they should do better now that some of the competition has disappeared and people are increasingly concerned about whether their airline will actually be running by the time they take their flight! Great news!

DISP, if MAN is "charging airlines through the nose", how come Ryanair have gone to 10 routes ex-MAN? After all, they've previously gone public with "High charges at MAN" and cut services.

Another forum suggests some expansion (new easyJet A320 at MAN with a breakdown of service details) and a very surprising resumption (one that makes me doubt the accuracy of what's proposed)

As for London Airways, contemplate why they did not codeshare MIA-MAN when they had the opportunity (perhaps too many MAN pax would choose that route rather then MAN-LHR-MIA?) and the BOS route had allegations that the poorer yielding passengers were being routed through onto AA's service using the BA codeshare.

MAN is not going to produce a combined J, Y+ and Y mix to make routes profitable. Perhaps it's telling that as BA is a "commercial" airline, the route to JFK ran profitably with just J and Y classes (well, it wasn't withdrawn was it?!). The moment they do away from it, they run into trouble. Perhaps it's not the MAN catchment area's problem....it's the airlines perceived ideas of what they think is best for the area.

Are we hearing Air Canada returning now Zoom are gone? *wonders if hope for GLA*

So what the Hell are Continental, Delta, USAirways and American flying across the Atlantic from Manchester? Fresh air?