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-   -   EAST MIDLANDS - 6 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/287822-east-midlands-6-a.html)

Charlie Roy 11th Sep 2007 10:25

Bremen also for example: Ryanair only get reduced fees on routes not already served.
Ryanair were happy with the overall Bremen deal, so accepted it.

However, Ryanair are not willing to do such a "no cannibalism" deal with Belfast, or Cork, or Shannon for various reasons. I suppose they look at each deal offered in detail. A Belfast "no cannibalism" deal would not have interested Ryanair. That said, they are not competing directly on any Belfast route thus far. This winter no other airline will do BHD to LPL, EMA, PIK or STN.

gate 22 11th Sep 2007 10:38

But sure nobody does pik-ema

dumdumbrain 11th Sep 2007 18:41

Cheers for clearing that up :)

But can Ryanair do EMA-PIK since Baby only do EMA-GLA, or is it the fees that made easyJet pull the route. . . . .


S78 11th Sep 2007 19:12

Short answer - no.

RYR market PIK as 'Glasgow' so it's essentially the same destination.


johnnychips 12th Sep 2007 00:19

How are the journey times and transport availability from PIK to the middle of Glasgow, and other parts of the conurbation, compared with Glasgow's 'proper' airport? Indeed, may PIK be more convenient for people living in the SW of the Glasgow area? I'm writing this as a person mostly ignorant of the geography of that area of Scotland.

I just find it strange that people keep quoting city-centre to city-centre times as a comparison to trains, when in fact, most people don't live in the city centre. :uhoh:

This may sound the wrong thread to be on but, actually, will EMA passengers make a distinction between PIK as being a bit near to Glasgow or GLA, which is evidently much nearer?

Crusher1 12th Sep 2007 07:32

Very easy to Glasgow city as Prestwick airport has it's own station on the line linking the city with Ayr, I'm sure any service from EMA would be very popular due to the golf and seaside resorts and not just the city.

dumdumbrain 12th Sep 2007 07:39

EMA Glasgow/Aryshire
I totally agree with you, on my training course I met a lad who lived about 10 mins from PIK, and I had no idea it was right on the coast, and close to many tourist attractions. I think EMA-PIK and EMA-GLA would attract different markets with little overlap. Competition is always good for pax!

Saying that I think we are a while off till we see Ryanair doing this route, many other new and exciting routes to start up and increase the number of flights on some routes, ie TFS and BHD

Lee :ok:

finding_nema 12th Sep 2007 18:53

Well whatever happens route wise, it's going to be a winter of big change at EMA, especially as most of the ground handling contracts are apparently up for renewal.

dumdumbrain 13th Sep 2007 06:40

I did hear Swissport wants to move in, do a good job in STN for Ryanair

finding_nema 13th Sep 2007 09:16

I don't know if there's a need or room for a third handling agent at an airport the size of EMA. I do know last summer Swissport and aviance both did come up to the airport, but considering setting up a new base requires massive capital investment and most contracts at EMA are fickle low-cost or charter ones, I wonder whether there's an interest.

[email protected] 13th Sep 2007 11:06

I see the airport is attending the World Routes Forum in Stockholm at the end of this month, Do you think they will be identifying and trying to attract long haul scheduled services or concentrating on short haul business and major hub connections????



p.s Its over 2 grand per person including 10 1 to 1 meetings with airlines.

egnxema 13th Sep 2007 21:47

As much as some see great gain in having linghaul routes from EMA, I think they should be going all out to get a Oneworld or Star Alliance carrier to link into a big hub. Or get KLM back on the AMS.

EMA747 14th Sep 2007 00:16

How about SK on EMA-CPH or EMA-ARN? Could compete with Sterling then.

bmibaby.com 16th Sep 2007 19:36

If bmi regional adds a second Embraer to EMA, and it's been discussed since they took it away from the CDG route in 2005, I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up serving one or two Star Alliance hubs. The problem with the obvious contenders like FRA or DUS, despite there being lots of transfer options and the main competitor to Star being flybe at BHX, is that slots are at a premium, and regional just can't get a workable schedule out there. I had heard ZRH being mentioned, and with Sterling looking like they're after the leisure market who knows if regional might be good for CPH.

Referencing Swissport UK, I just can't see it happening. As has been discussed already, last summer when Menzies were having a couple of growing pains, two handling agents believed to be Swissport and Aviance were invited to look round the airport. Even though the airport is growing, there just aren't enough contracts to sustain more than 2 handling agents. I think instead we're going to see the competition heat up between Servisair and Menzies.

dumdumbrain 16th Sep 2007 23:30

The Ryanair contract runs out this winter and Menzies just don't want, reason being Ryanair was asking too much of them (shock horror).

bmibaby.com 17th Sep 2007 11:28

Has it been confirmed that Menzies are definitely not interested in the bidding for the Ryanair contract, and for the reason that they're too demanding? Remember that the EMA product for Menzies is born out of KISS which was a sub-brand dedicated to a low-cost environment. I can't imagine Menzies would be interested in the kind of contract where they have to give away free turnarounds, but they are competitive, handling airlines like easyJet, Jet2 and flybe. They do seem to have a chronic problem with having to wait around for coaches though, although if the rumours are true that Ryanair only wants stands 7 - 12 then that shouldn't be an issue. Are Servisair doing such a bad job anyway? Ryanair must have some faith in them because they seem to do most of the UK handling.

With all this Ryanair expansion I think the next six months is really going to be make or break time for the bmi group. The second ERJ and sixth 737 have long been rumoured but we could really do with them to try to protect some market share. On the other hand, expansion does not always equal profit, so for as long as we're ticking along nicely and I have a job, I've got no complaints!

dumdumbrain 17th Sep 2007 16:05

Servisair & stands
Well funny you should talk about Servisair, I was talking to one of my friends off my training course who is now based at Liverpool, and he has the same problem with them. We have a very tight turn around time, and is a big issue at the moment. Servisair has some very good staff but is let down by a group of teenagers who do a very poor job, and have no manners.

I take with me to the gate the 25 mins turn around sheet, which Serviseair have been given aswell, but still the rules are not follwed. . . Some of them don't see Ryanair as a customer, and have an attitude problem.

Also Ryanair don't use them that much really, STN is swissport which handle some 40 odd a/c, same with BHX, DUB we have our own staff. And actually do a very good job, well the ground staff not too sure about the checking staff, *personally I dont think the checkin staff should not wear the uniform most of them don't look after it, dirty, most look like the uniform hasn't seen the washing machine or iron for months, missing buttons, buttons not done up, tie pin not in correct place if at all. I mean if I walk in my crew room looking a mess, or uniform not perfect I would be told, sent home, and a note on my record. Just because we area low cost airline doesn't mean we can't take care and pride in our personally appearence

Room for Swissport to move in if it was to gain the Ryanair contract, will have 6 a/c come the end of next month, plus those flights coming from other bases such as DUB, SNN, ORK, MAD, ALC

Stands 7-12 I don't think that is enough anymore, that's only room for 5 a/c we will have 6 a/c come the end of next month, and another 2 a/c in the spring, the better choice is to extend the new pier south and sort out the issue of buses.

I see UKIA was flying again last night ;)

***these comments about Servisair are my own and not those of Ryanair

- and a final note before people moan about the 25 min turn around and 20 mins door to door, Berlin do a very good job and sometimes even shorter than this, got to hand to the staff Berlin, do a great job :D


First Bag 17th Sep 2007 19:17

Dumbdumbrain...... So its Servisairs turn now for you to have a moan about, first it was Security, TNT, BMi Baby and now Servisair, who next then.

Do Servisair handle Ryanair at Liverpool? I thought it the ground handling was handled by Liverpool airport and that Servisair just dispatched the aircraft
Your point about 25 minute turn rounds is? I would like to see you turn a full B737 800 round with 185 bags off then another 185 on.They do it as best as possible.If they are slow ,by a few minutes, so what, you get and do it if you think you can do better instead of serving a few tea and biscuits on a two hour trip.

The attitude of the Servisair staff, thats laughable, take a look at the attitude of some of your captains and you will see that they are a lot worse or you that blinkered or got your head so far up the captains bum you dont notice? Tell you what,why dont you wander up to the Servisair crew room and put your point across to them about their attitude problem and lets see what the responce will be.

The Real Slim Shady 17th Sep 2007 19:44

First Bag

Your point about 25 minute turn rounds is? I would like to see you turn a full B737 800 round with 185 bags off then another 185 on.
When your management signed the contract it was, no doubt, on the basis that they accepted the terms and conditions and obviously believed that the staff were capable of turning a full 737 800 round in 25 minutes. If you now feel that you, and your colleagues, can't manage that, perhaps you should take it up with your management and ask for more staff.

The attitude of the Servisair staff, thats laughable, take a look at the attitude of some of your captains and you will see that they are a lot worse or you that blinkered or got your head so far up the captains bum you dont notice?
The Captain has responsibility to ensure that the aircraft departs on schedule: he / she has every right to use his / her best efforts to make it work. If that entails pushing you to stick to agreed protocols and SOPS it can hardly be described as "attitude"!

Abusing_the_sky 17th Sep 2007 19:53

First Bag...
You might do your best when off loading 185 bags and loading another 185 in less than 25mins, hat's off to you. But try to serve "tea and biscuits" to 189 pax in a 2hrs flight, the majority coming from a "chav raising culture", have people swearing at you just because you need to have the emergency exit rows clear for take off and landing and they wouldn't give you their bags to be stowed in the overhead lockers... And SO many more examples if you want to...
As for the captains... Why don't you try go through training for roughly 2 and a half years and become a pilot, then see what's it like to have a ground staff/ baggage handler coming to YOUR flight deck and calling you "mate" or "dude"? That is so disrespectful. As a CPT you are responsable for 189 plus 6 souls... If you think a CPT is rude, well you have another one coming. A CPT is NOT your village bus driver... He is GOD in that a/c for that day. Without him, the flight will never exist,pax would not be able to go from A to B. So back off a little and have a close look at what you wrote. No matter you are FA, CPT, FO, handling agent, YOU don't disrespect people's careers like you did. Of course there are bad eggs in every basket, but tell me, where aren't they...???

And as far as i knew, freedom of speech was still allowed... Dumbdumbrain only said his opinion, no reason for you to take it to a "slagging off" level.

Take care.:ok:

First Bag 17th Sep 2007 20:02

What Im saying is they do their best to get the aircraft turned round in the alloted time,I know the management signed to do the turn rounds in that time but they dont have to do them do they.How will more staff help? you can just get two inside the hold and two by the door to off load so more staff would be a hinderance so more staff would be no use. No wonder most of the experienced staff have left cause of this and no I dont work for Servisair just annoyed at the way Dumbdumbrain thinks Ryanair is the best thing in the world when its the hard work of the ground team to get the aircraft turned round in the 25 mins time but he just slags them off for their attitudes on the ramp

davedog 17th Sep 2007 20:06


A CPT is NOT your village bus driver... He is GOD in that a/c for that day. Without him, the flight will never exist,pax would not be able to go from A to B.

at least you will not be called 'mate' or 'dude' now, just 'GOD'

come on opinions are two sided

dumdumbrain 17th Sep 2007 20:08

Erm yes I think you will find I do push staff at the gate to find bag tag numbers asap, and make final calls by name. The captain can do very little in the flight deck other than write a inflight special report moaning (the captain can not even get off the a/c while pax are on board), and yes i've wrote reports before to my base manager. Like most of my fellow cabin crew we have a great deal respect towards our flight deck, we have a good working relationship and do a good job getting us back home often early.

And im sure my base manager and servisair have both sat down to try and sort issues out. But when Ryanair staff are not even allowed to pull boarding cards, it slows things down. paper work not being done on time, wrong figures given. Anyway it is the number one who gets a phone call asking why the a/c was late, not the captain, he just files the reason why.

And its not 25 mins, its actually only 20mins door to door, the othher mins are for taxiiing to stand and push back.

At the end of the day Ryanair is paying for a service which is not up to standard. . . . . which is a shame because servisair have some very good staff but is being let down by a few, lets hope these wont be stopping after the summer season. I actually get on with a fair number of them, and some were invited to the Ryanair staff summer party :ok:

Does anyone know what the tour ops are basing at EMA over the winter and next summer?

Oh and a few mins late is alot, that can lose you a slot, and you can wait for ages for another, a few weeks ago we missed one and had to wait almost 40mins for another, and that delay can creat delays for the rest of the day. And i never slagged off TNT, it was group 4, get ya facts right.

First Bag 17th Sep 2007 20:17

Abusing the sky

Next time I see a Ryanair captain or First Officer I will just call him 'GOD' in future. Thanks for the tip, I will tell the Servisair guys also to call him 'GOD'to and to get down and worship him to if thats what you want.

My opinions were aimed at Dumbdumbrain who seems to have his own say on everything at EMA so I was having my say about his beloved Ryanair

Abusing_the_sky 17th Sep 2007 20:18


I wouldn't go to Buckingham Palace and say to the Queen : "You alright LOVE?"
Would you?:)

Abusing_the_sky 17th Sep 2007 20:23

LOL First Bag
You do that, they'll appreciate it.:)

As I said, you'll find bad eggs in every basket, Servisair has some, so does Ryanair, or any other airline/ground handling company... But in all honesty if you like your job, on the ground, in the air, you wouldn't really take in whatever other people people put you through. That's just my opinion

Read you soon :ok:

dumdumbrain 17th Sep 2007 20:24

Anyway it aint the baggage handlers (some of which are actually fit ;)) who are the problem its the boarding gate stafff,

mathers_wales_uk 17th Sep 2007 20:33

I have to say THAT without the Captain and FO, yes the a/c won't be able to go anywhere, also if there were no dispatcher the a/c wouldn't be able to go anywhere Don't forget he/she signs paperwork that says evrything is safe on that a/c and loaded accordingly e.t.c. (and that is the law)

Therefor a dispatcher is also in charge of the safety of how many passengers are on board.

Fortunatly for us at CWL we have BmiBaby based crew that like the more friendly approach with using first name terms. (except for when they call down on company frequency)

Without check-in staff there wouldn't be any passengers for you to fly, and without baggage guys there won't be anyone to load the bags.

Even though the level of work and responsibility of each department amybe gerater than the other, without one of them, there wouldn't be able to operate.

dumdumbrain 17th Sep 2007 20:38

Totally agree with the above

Abusing_the_sky 17th Sep 2007 20:45

so very true:ok:

finding_nema 17th Sep 2007 21:20

Thanks for that level headed post mathers_wales_uk, everybody is responsible for ensuring a safe and on-time departure, no matter what department they are from. The handling agents have a tough time in keeping good staff when you consider they have to keep their costs as low as possible to give demanding airlines like Ryanair the kind of contracts that they want.

Out of interest with Ryanair not being able to pull boarding cards, are cabin crew trained to do this? Not that it's rocket science or that bmibaby ever gave us training for it, but presumably in case you make a boarding error you need to know what to look out for and also it's Servisair's gate so they might want to try to board the flight with minimum interference.

The KISS brand from Menzies isn't actually used anymore, it was retired as it were two years ago when they got the Thomas Cook contract and decided to become a more rounded handling agent. Although Menzies handle Ryanair at a couple of Spanish stations and do handle other low-cost airlines in the UK, the Ryanair contract for something like 30 turns a day would be a massive overnight increase in what they handle and as mentioned there are severe penalties when flights are mishandled.

dumdumbrain 17th Sep 2007 21:43

Yes all Ryanair cabin crew are fully trained to pull boarding cards. . . . i remember my trainer and Ryanair going over and over about passports and what to check for. . . . . . . I dont understand why we can;t we do every where else

bmibabyfc 18th Sep 2007 09:31

finding_nema - are you sure you were not given training by bmibaby on how to pull a boarding card?

Check the date, flight number and name and photo id/passport - job done! :D

dumdumbrain 18th Sep 2007 10:40

I was told if I pull one I will have to pull them all. . . . which kind of defeats paying for the service, at every other airport we work together, I really don't see the difference at EMA unless anyone knows a reason why. In fact at DUB its only me and the dispatcher.


finding_nema 18th Sep 2007 11:18

Nope, I had my training on most things after an incident had occured which demonstrated that I needed training in that area, but hey, we live and learn from our mistakes! Nothing about ground services is akin to rocket science, but it's about being told explicitly what to do and also appreciating human error, but again, that's the subject of a whole other email!

What exactly do Ryanair pay for at the gate? Could the crew not just stand on the crossing and let the (presumably) trained PSAs get on with their job in the gate?

END BAG 18th Sep 2007 11:43

East Midlands 6
Hi All
I am one of the "lucky" guys who off-loads and re-loads those 180 bags so i will give you all the lowdown on a Ryanair turnround. Four men allocated to the job,ONE MAN GETS A SET OF STEPS,ONE MAN G.P.U. ONE MAN CHOCKS&CONES AND ONE MAN LUGGAGE BARROWS. All equipment in place for a/c arrival then all put in correct positions and a/c offloadedwith 2 men inside a/c hold and 2 men outside. After bags offloaded one man goes to arrivals leaving three men for onload 2 men in hold and i man outside.Runs like clockwork nine times out of ten until there is a passenger offload which is WHAT CAUSES MOST OF THE DELAYS.Ican understand a passenger offload when repeated calls go unanswered with no sign of pax but MANY,MANY times pax are offloaded who are actually stood at the gate!!!!!!! At E.M.A. this is the difference between running the pax to the a/c in two minutes from the gate or offloading up to 180 bags which could take 20MINUTES if the bag has been loaded off the first cart. Never quite understood the logic of the delay equation 2 mins or 20 mins. I KNOW THERE HAS TO BE A GATE CLOSING TIME BUT TO HAVE IT SO FINE IS A PAIN IN THE ARSE SOMETIMES.Ihave been a headset man for 14 years so i was taught by on old-timer and he always started his headset call with"Ground to flight deck good day SIR" and i have always adressed thr flight deck as "SIR" but would be interested to know if the modern day headset men are still taught the same way.Any captains enlighte me?

finding_nema 18th Sep 2007 12:33

Does anyone seriously think we could do with a third handling agent at EMA?

bmibaby.com 18th Sep 2007 13:27

I honestly can't see there being a need for a third handling agent if Menzies are interested in expanding their presence at the airport. Realistically next summer there are 5 main contracts; TUIfly, Thomas Cook, Ryanair, easyJet and bmi group ramp (obviously there's also the Eastern and XL). Considering that Menzies are growing each year, then there should be enough contracts to sustain two relatively sized handling agents. A third would just pull costs down to uneconomic levels, and that alongside lack of office or ramp space, I think was the reason neither Aviance or Swissport came in last summer. I'm sure though if Ryanair are persuasive enough they'll get what they want.

EGAC_Ramper 18th Sep 2007 18:47

Well having worked on the ramp as a baggage handler at Belfast City for 3 years before moving onwards and upwards I know the pressure's placed on ground staff. We all rely on eachother to keep things running. Kudos to ground staff in offloading/loading B738's. As pilots we know time is tight on the ground but do our best to get in early to allow some extra breathing space. I think tho to many a time this EMA thread drifts.

Heard one of the flying schools are to depart EMA as the lease is up with posible extension of ramp towards that area.

As for the question on the headset, even though its captains who talk to the staff its just always nice to have a pleasant "Hello" :O

dumdumbrain 18th Sep 2007 22:39

Dont forget the UPS contract. When i worked at TNT I saw endless lads working on it, at TNT we only had 4/5 people loading an a/c, not including the tug drivers.

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