PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Airlines, Airports & Routes (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes-85/)
-   -   STANSTED - 2 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/245928-stansted-2-a.html)

Skipness One Echo 22nd Jun 2013 18:46

You don't need to me to say again that BAA's appalling, high cost and ultimately uncompetitive management of Stansted
It's really easy to have a go at BAA but they built Stansted to be a new London hub airport for the 21st century then had to make money out of it via Ryanair and easyJet. That's a divergence straight off the bat, STN is a really nice airport with a very loco demographic and feel to it. "Uncompetitive" as you say is the necessary requirement BAA had to cover their costs once cross subsidy from LHR was stopped. By all means lets see how MAG do with STN on it's own two feet dropping prices to lure back EZY. It won't be easy to make money though, Ryanair's biggest base is at STN and BAA weren't rolling in gold as a result. High load factors and millions of passengers can still mean the airport operator loses money. Stansted is faced with being a base for the cheap and cheerful with the overheads of a major international gateway.

davidjohnson6 22nd Jun 2013 18:48

Does anybody who has commented on the recent Easyjet-Stansted agreement actually have knowledge of what the written agreement does or doesn't say ?
I'm aware that it indicates the airline and airport want to be friends again and won't be nasty to each other, but I haven't really seen much in the way of specific details of the contract.
Things like airport charges structures, commitments by airline to deliver passengers, etc... the hard stuff that the commercial people in an airline or airport think about.

FRatSTN 22nd Jun 2013 20:29


No not specifically and that's precisely the point I'm trying to get across to LGS. What we do know though is that MAG and EasyJet have shook hands on an agreement and that will be ultimately based on a variety of aspects such as costs, operations, services etc. The deal is done in a sense, it's a case of how and when EasyJet materialise with it.

Skipness One Echo

Uncompetitive was sort of the hub of the issues, with high costs, less investment, lack of growth etc. as the spokes in a sense. And I think it's reasonable to say that if BAA were still running Stansted, there would not be an £80 terminal revamp under way, they would still be using all the money that could be spent there on investing at Heathrow instead!

BAA, or Heathrow Airport Holdings Ltd. are a high cost operator (always have been, and always will be) and therefore much more suited to running airports with a presence of more flag carriers or long haul airlines like Heathrow and Glasgow. Interestingly, Ryanair now serves none of their airports and EasyJet fairly minimally, with GIP owned Edinburgh being their main Scottish airport. Says it all really!

MAG are much more suited to Stansted's market. They already have built strong relationships with Low-cost carriers at Manchester, East Midlands and Bournemouth and are a much more cost efficient operator.

It's also nice to see that somebody actually also has optimism about Stansted's future (rather than denying any growth because to MAG it is, a newly-acquired turd that was overpaid for). I see no reason why under separate ownership and fairer competition, Stansted cannot continue to enjoy growth once again.

Skipness One Echo 22nd Jun 2013 22:07

They would still be using all the money that could be spent there on investing at Heathrow instead!
Worth remembering LHR went to the dogs to pay for the Norman Foster palace at Stansted, it was paid for from LHR profits! T2 closed 15 years later than it should have because BAA thought STN was the future focus. It wasn't. Anyway that's how groups work, STN profits may well be funneled to pay for MAN investment going forward.

EasyJet fairly minimally, with GIP owned Edinburgh being their main Scottish airport. Says it all really!
EZY at EDI are the same size as under BAA and not much bigger than GLA. You mixing up behavioral attributes with ownership. EDI is much more business focussed and legacy carrier focussed than GLA which remains with more bucket and spade.

much more cost efficient operator.
What does this mean? Of you mean have lower operating costs that's true but then they make less money amd handle less traffic.

I see no reason why under separate ownership and fairer competition, Stansted cannot continue to enjoy growth once again.
The market doesn't like STN, it's that simple. Any major carrier who tried left and moved out or went bust. Really. I won't list them, oh wait I will.
American, Eos, Maxjet, Air Asia X.
SAS, Lufthansa, Air UK, Air Berlin, BMI Baby etc
Who's left with a major presence? Ryanair and easyJet. That's the free market showing a preference.

FRatSTN 23rd Jun 2013 09:04

And when T2 closed, that's when Stansted really started to go down the pan. I don't really want to get into this debate again about cross subsidising, but the fact is, BAA tried to hold on to an airport that was basically falling apart under their management!

They sold Gatwick first based on the fact that they were still in fairy land at that time trying to make Stansted a 2 runway, 2 terminal airport that would be operational today.

MAG aim to and are investing on improvements and adding value to the airport. They aim to diversify the mix of traffic (which we're starting to see evidence of). And they aim to make maximum efficiency of existing infrastructure, not fantasising about second runways when they are only half full as it is!

That's what I mean by a "much more cost efficient operator." For MAG, it's about offering the best possible airport for customers and airlines in terms of cost and service, not the biggest!

As for Scotland, EasyJet and Ryanair have both increased their Edinburgh traffic since GIP took over last year. EasyJet quite drastically in fact. Ryanair sited the new owners as the reason for their expansion and they particularly have made it quite clear how much they had despised BAA through cutting back in Edinburgh, axing Aberdeen and only considering Glasgow if it was sold off by BAA. Quite disastrous for Stansted since they cater for 70% of its traffic.

Tranceaddict 28th Jun 2013 16:17

New Owner To Reopen Stansted’s Diamond Hangar FBO
New Owner To Reopen Stansted’s Diamond Hangar FBO


June 27, 2013, 2:20 PM
The Diamond Hangar FBO at London Stansted Airport is set to reopen under new ownership after the previous operator ceased trading at the facility some time around late April or early May. Diamond Hangar, a subsidiary of UK real estate group Greatex, confirmed that it has taken over the lease on the building but has yet to elaborate on what services it will provide at what is now Stansted’s fifth FBO.

The Diamond Hangar facility, which was formerly an airliner maintenance facility operated by SR Technics, opened as an a FBO last July under a lease held by Eighteen Aviation, which traded under the name of Aero Toy Store. Its main shareholder was Ben Shirazi, son of Morris Shirazi, founder of the U.S. aircraft sales and completions group Aero Toy Store.

In May, Uttlesford District Council, the local government body in the Stansted area, took legal action against Eighteen Aviation to recover £1.12 million ($1.71 million) in unpaid taxes. The current status of Eighteen Aviation remains unclear, although UK company records indicate that former managing director Mike Foley “terminated” his position as a director on April 23.

Aero Toy Store did not respond to AIN’s requests for comment. Also, AIN was unable to reach anyone from Eighteen Aviation.

New Owner To Reopen Stansted?s Diamond Hangar FBO | Aviation International News

FRatSTN 28th Jun 2013 18:33

Something on the Isle Of Man thread about BMI Regional starting a Stansted to Isle Of Man service in summer 2014, 12x a week? Would be great but I'll believe it when I see it!

Talks with Ryanair are on-going...
Ryanair in Talks With London Stansted Buyer MAG to Swell Traffic - Bloomberg

FRatSTN 29th Jun 2013 13:21

Aegean Airlines return to Stansted, July-September 2013
Another new carrier for Stansted, but only for a couple of months it seems.

Aegean will fly 3x weekly to Athens on Monday's, Thursday's and Saturday's using an A320 from 11th July until 16th September 2013.

The flight schedule is as follows:

Dep. ATH 10:00 Arr. STN 12:00
Dep. STN 12:45 Arr. ATH 18:20

Dep. ATH 14:30 Arr. STN 16:30
Dep. STN 17:15 Arr. ATH 23:00

Dep. ATH 19:20 Arr. STN 21:20
Dep. STN 22:05 Arr. ATH 04:00

Skipness One Echo 30th Jun 2013 23:40

Another new carrier for Stansted, but only for a couple of months it seems.
Didn't they leave for LHR a while back? Looks like adding summer capacity due lack of LHR slots.

davidjohnson6 30th Jun 2013 23:55

Didn't they leave for LHR a while back?
Announced August 2009 - moved from STN to LHR at the end of October 2009

canberra97 1st Jul 2013 00:00

Aegean Airlines have recently discontinued Heathrow to Larnaca and are supposed to be starting Gatwick to Athens in October although I cant see that route starting myself as it is a bit late in the season and is there really the demand on that route in the winter for the extra flights to be added especially as Easyjet also fly to Athens from Gatwick.

If Aegean Airlines are supposed to be operating Gatwick to Athens from October why did they choose a return back to Stansted and not operate this new route from Gatwick, it is only three flights a week and surely they could have found slots at Gatwick for this or will it be the case that the restart of Gatwick to Athens in October will be transferred to Stansted especially as there is no competition on this route, it would be good for Stansted to retain Aegean Airlines and have them operate year round to Athens.

FRatSTN 1st Jul 2013 09:03

Well I only found it because I saw that somebody had put Aegean to Athens as a seasonal service on the Stansted Wikipedia page. I thought it was probably nothing at first, but when I looked it was indeed there from 11th July. I wonder how long they've actually had it on sale for?

I also think using Stansted is better as it gives customers a better choice of departure points to Athens in the UK market. It would provide a smaller and less congested option for departures and arrivals and to many, a more convenient or cheaper alternative to Heathrow and Gatwick. Not everybody wants to fly from the big major airports in London, especially for point-to-point travel. Being at Gatwick will no doubt have something to do with their Star Alliance membership I would imagine, so probably will be there from October as planned.

TOWTEAMBASE 2nd Jul 2013 18:23


Your forgetting continental from that list. But Air Berlin are still there though German wings too. Need to get some operators in there fast

FRatSTN 6th Jul 2013 12:20

A bit more background about what MAG and Stansted could achieve...

Routes News - Stansted eyes 34 million trips at London rivals

Sounds much more positive than anything BAA ever did, but can they eventually get those long-haul carriers in? And can they materialise that EasyJet deal and please Ryanair to get them growing "rapidly" again?

Let's hope so. Best of luck to them! :ok:

Skipness One Echo 6th Jul 2013 15:16

To stop trips from Stansted's catchment area continuing via Gatwick and Heathrow, Harrison is now angling for to point-to-point connections and flights to hubs such as Amsterdam, Dubai, Istanbul or Paris.
"My impression is that it might be less risky for a hub operator to operate than a point-to-point. But, equally, we know that some of the markets from here are absolutely very, very strong,” he said.
"We are very, very confident in a point-to-point service to certain routes – Dubai, for example. Even if it didn’t connect through Dubai, the point-to-point demand for Dubai from round here is very, very strong."
Routes News - Stansted eyes 34 million trips at London rivals

So cutting through the waffle he's eyeing KLM, Air France, Turkish and (not) Emirates. How in the name of God he's confident of a point to point Dubai against 5 Emirates A388s at LHR and 3 B77Ws at LGW is....interesting. WHen he says it might not connect, who does he mean?

rutankrd 6th Jul 2013 16:02

Flydubai brand is likely.

FRatSTN 6th Jul 2013 16:15

He thinks there is enough demand for areas closer to Stansted than Gatwick and Heathrow to support a direct service from Stansted to Dubai, even if it doesn't offer onward or connecting flights from Dubai. In other words, Dubai is a strong enough market to support a point-to-point service from Stansted.

Personally, I think it's too soon to make a judgement to be honest and it's fair to say those places/airlines are some possible examples. They're not necessarily "eyeing" KLM, Air France etc.

As for London-Dubai, there is huge demand and if there was an extra daily flight added from Heathrow or Gatwick, nobody probably would bat an eyelid. Why couldn't Stansted support even a few flights a week?

What's to say Emirates can't move 1 of the 3 Gatwick flights to Stansted or Turkish Airlines were to move back for example? The whole reason why MAG now owns Stansted is to heat up the competition. Someone's gain is potentially someone else's loss. You win some you lose some. Stansted's done quite a lot of losing, perhaps MAG's new management strategy is just the ticket to start winning some again? And maybe Gatwick's turn to lose some? Who knows? It's too soon to say!

But I would say that Gatwick in particular needs to watch out. Over the last few years under GIP management, it's been pretty much a piece of cake to snatch traffic from Stansted but it's in a more vulnerable position now (or perhaps Stansted in a more powerful one?)

If the quality improves at Stansted (through this terminal revamp and other possible future investments) and/or operating costs become more enticing (and/or Gatwick gets its way to increase charges), some airlines may not think twice about leaving and looking at Essex instead.

Likewise, some airlines, Norwegian for example, may have got comfy at Gatwick now and nothing really Stansted can do will bring them back, where these aims could be just another complete waste of time all over again.

LGS6753 6th Jul 2013 18:24

Andrew Harrison - welcome to "London" - although your airport is in rural Essex.

He claims Cambridge-originating passengers are driving past STN on their way to Heathrow. Yes, they are. Even more are driving past Gatwick on their way to Heathrow, and even more than that are driving past Luton on their way to Heathrow. The same applies to Bristol, Southampton, Birmingham and East Midlands. The only one of those that has much long-haul traffic is Gatwick, which will always be seen as Heathrow's waiting room.

I'm afraid Mr Harrison will be sorely disappointed if he expects Stansted to attract long-haul full-service airlines. Why would they choose his airfield? It's only merit is that he can offer capacity. But he can't offer catchment, convenience or connections.

Never mind - if he stems the decline, and picks up a bit more Ryanair traffic, he could apply for a better job somewhere else!

FRatSTN 6th Jul 2013 19:47

He's seeing potential and making Stansted as attractive as it can be for a range of airlines and destinations, clearly something that you can never see, or accept!

You may be right, Stansted may well always be nothing but LCC's and short-haul and three quarters blue and yellow, but with £80m being spent on terminal improvements (a major incentive to airlines to choose his "airfield") along with already attracting 2 new carriers (neither of which are LCC's) since taking over 3 months ago, plus have a deal signed with EasyJet, they don't seem to be doing too badly so far!

But he can't offer catchment, convenience or connections.
Please explain. I think you'll find he can. He already has catchment and connections, it's the convenience he is now embracing and that which you are ruling out!

compton3bravo 6th Jul 2013 20:11

Forgive if I am wrong but aren´t easyJet going back to the capacity they had before they switched a number of services to Southend plus I don´t think the agreement is set in stone yet. Also a two flights a week by Air Moldova wow - we are going to make a lot of money there aren´t we! Come on lets get real absolutely no chance of full service long haul, has had been said already the Gatwick carriers are just waiting for slots at Heathrow.

All times are GMT. The time now is 00:22.

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.