The Aer Lingus logo doesn't work with the green livery. It looks like a cheap add on. bmi (and baby!!) and BA don't need it, why do Aer Lingus?
Drop the tatty logo methinks.

Skipness, i think you may have missed my point....they have dropped it!!!

flew through TLS the other day and the dot.com logo was still on display at check-in and the departure screen at the gate. on another note, TLS....what a terribly laid out airport

FI on EI
 

Interesting article in this week's FI about EI:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...expansion.html

Not a lot we didn't know already, but interesting nonetheless.

EU Commission response re Open Skies
 

I received correspondence today from the EU Commission, in relation to the whole Open Skies issue. In brief ...

- Decision by US administration to postpone "final rule" (on foreign o'ship of US carriers) regrettable; US has however reaffirmed to M. Barrot a commitment to conclude an EU/US air transport agreement by year end. Utmost importance that process towards conclusion continues.

- Commission is acutely aware of the difficulties that further difficulties would pose, in particular for Ireland and Aer Lingus ... doing utmost to secure successful outcome to these negotiations ("these" meaning EU/US, rather than EU/Ireland and Ireland/US?)

I pointed out that in the Commission's first reponse to me, they set out the conditions under which an individual member state could be permitted to enter direct negotiations with US and that Ireland satisfied both of these (i.e. that proposed agreement - which was negotiated under EU auspices - contained clauses required by EU, and that allowing separate deal to go ahead would not compromise ongoing negotiations).

Obviously, Commission couldn't be expected to give firm yes/no, but to me suggests that they'd rather Ireland waited. Maybe compromise will be that if no deal is reached by year end or in time for Summer 2007, airlines will be able to go ahead. However, since EU has voiced its optimism that deal will be done and since any new deal wouldn't take effect until next Summer, one can suggest that it's "no skin off EU's nose" to allow Irish deal to go ahead.

Aer Lingus privatised - what next?
 

Well, EI has begun trading on the stock market, today - 27th Sept 06 - and not before time. Trading began at EUR2.10 and it has been climbing a bit since - not sure what the price is right now.

What is the process from here? The airline is expected to raise some EUR500m from the floatation and use that to fund its long term fleet acquisitions; does anyone know how long this process is likely to take; some have said (I think in The Times) that the airline might wait two years, but I think that's unlikely - particularly as the investment community wouldn't have it.

Presumably, we're likely to see a spate of announcements from next month (if not even sooner)?

EI moving forward!
 

Today's IT reports that the airline is now preparing to immediately use some of the €535 million of proceeds produced by the sale. Chief executive Dermot Mannion said European manufacturer Airbus was making "positive soundings" about a new deal involving some wide bodied A330 aircraft. He said there was a possibility of two or three of them becoming available sometime in 2008, although they would need to be ordered before that.

But he refused to rule out something emerging from talks with Boeing which is pitching its highly fuel efficient 787 Dreamliner to airlines. Boeing, however, is at a disadvantage because the waiting times for the Dreamliner are longer than the A330.

(It seems to be comparing apples and oranges, so to speak, as getting more A330s is not necessarily inconsistent with an order for 787s, since it will be 2012 before 787-9s become available, assuming that's the version EI would get if it went down that road. If EI were dealing with a lessor which had both 330s and 787s on its books, this might be a strong possibility).

Good news as well from Leinster House; here are two Dail Questions on the Open Skies issue:

Dáil Question
No: 1086 + 1115


*To ask the Minister for Transport the steps he has taken to request EU
permission to proceed with the more liberal Irish/US bilateral negotiated
in the expectation of open skies but now vital to Aer Lingus prospects; the
response he has received from the EU ; and if no response has been
received, has the urgency of a decision has been communicated to them.
- Olivia Mitchell.

* For WRITTEN answer on Wednesday, 27th September, 2006.

Ref No: 28734/06
Dáil Question
No: _______

*To ask the Minister for Transport if the transitional agreement on the
Shannon bilateral arrangement with the US, negotiated in November 2005, and
due to come into force from November 2006 to April 2008 will be suspended
in view of the fact that it was predicated on the successful negotiation of
an EU US Open Skies Agreement; and if he will make a statement on the
matter.
- Pat Breen.

* For WRITTEN answer on Wednesday, 27th September, 2006.

Ref No: 29484/06

Answered by the Minister for Transport
(Martin Cullen)

Reply

I propose to take questions 1086 & 1115 together.

In November 2005 EU and US negotiators concluded work on the text of a
first-phase EU-US Open Skies agreement. The text was unanimously endorsed
at the December 2005 Transport Council subject to sufficient progress by
the US side on opening up ownership and control of US airlines to EU
investors The formal US process of changing its ownership and control rules
was expected to be concluded in August 2006 so that a final decision could
be taken at the October Transport Council. However, due to difficulties on
the US side the rule-making process has been extended.

I am fully committed to the view that the liberalisation of air transport
services between Ireland and the US will deliver major benefits for Irish
business and tourism. I have had detailed discussions with EU Commissioner
Barrot and have strongly urged the Commission to continue engagement with
the US Authorities so that they can be in a position to bring forward a
proposal for decision at the October Transport Council that will
incorporate the Irish transition arrangements.

In the absence of progress at EU level I intend to seek to implement, in
accordance with the applicable Community law, the essential elements of the
transitional arrangements by way of an amendment to the Ireland-US
bilateral Air Services Agreement.

This is obviously of immense importance to EI, not just because of the new routes offered, but because of the certainty it gives; I doubt very much if the minister would be as forthright about his intentions if this plan was unlikely to get EU approval.

In another bit of good news, the US embassy has announced a new deal with the Irish govt, whereby all Irish flights will use domestic gates at US airports:

New agreement between the Irish and US governments will see flights from Irish airports will soon be allowed to arrive at the domestic gates of United States airports, enabling passengers to simply collect their luggage and go.
Under plans announced by the US embassy yesterday, passengers will undergo full "pre-clearance" by US officials working at Dublin and Shannon airports.he United States Embassy wishes to announce that consultations with Irish authorities are now underway for CBP to introduce full pre-clearance, which would supplement current passport screening at Dublin and Shannon Airports with the agricultural and customs checks that are conducted at US airports for arriving passengers.

"The consultations, which have been led by Ambassador James C. Kenny on the US side, are focused on prospects for the provision of necessary facilities for full pre-clearance, in connection with Dublin Airport's construction plans and Shannon Airport's development strategy."

Hugely significant, I think.

New developments?
 

Any idea of how long we'll be waiting for the new developments - routes, acft and service product? Just curious; I know EI has only started trading officially on the stock market this week, but me being me, I'm not the most patient!

Heard a few interesting rumours - possibility of BFS-LHR, 2 or possibly 3 A330s for delivery in 2008 (if they order pretty soon).

It will also be interesting to see what effect the recent foul-ups at Airbus will have on the A350 and in particular on its entry into service. Airbus has already said that the formal launch will be delayed and that can't be good news; looks that service entry for the existing carriers is now 2013, which is probably pushing it a bit for EI? This was hinted at, here, a few weeks back and I wonder if there's any more on Boeing's offer of 777s? (I wonder if the more recent rumours about FR and 777s was intended to "spur" EI into a decision?!)

On the subject of the 787, there was a cutaway in last week's Flight and I played around with it to see what some EI configs might look like. They're not, of course, 100% accurate, but I don't think they're too far out and only intended to give ballpark figures anyway. The aircraft seems to be pretty much in the ballpark of what EI needs, even the -8. http://p078.ezboard.com/fdublinairpo...icID=988.topic

Finally, with the likelihood that a new Irish/US deal will be approved by the EU to go ahead, notwithstanding the wider EU/US problems, I wonder where that leaves other routes, such as those to Asia and South Africa? These are definitely lower down the priority list in EI's eyes (try saying that quickly ;) ) than US destinations and with a lack of suitable acft, I'm wondering if they will be deferred at least until 2008, possibly even 2009?

EI overnighters?
 

An intersting thought was mentioned on another forum, EI using its A320/A321s on overnight services to places like Moscow(perhaps also ATH/PFO, etc, etc) EI certainly used to operate charters for Budget Travel(pre tui days!) in this way, and it seemed to work quite well. It is a really good way of pushing up utilisation of the fleet to the max. EI dont appear to have any extra a/c (except one) comming in for next year, so it would seem that this is the only way to launch some new routes?

On another thought....EI seem to have rolled out the 'tradtional' sinage, I wonder if there is going to be a major product upgrade? The long-haul cabins definately need it...they were lookng scruffy three years ago! But perhaps we may see the introduction of a C cabin on short haul? Deli-Bag, lounge access, etc? especially on routes like AMS LHR CDG MAD FRA, etc.

While I'm at it, have EI re-fitted the a321s yet or do they still have the cloth seats? The 321s seem to have fallen out of favour with some european operators so perhaps EI could pick up a few of these quite cheaply?

There are actually three A320s coming next year, from what I understand.

I agree that operating overnight routes is a good idea and certainly something that could be tried with some of the proposed new longer routes like Athens, Moscow, Istanbul etc, because you also get the advantage of the time difference. An A320 leave DUB for say DME could leave at about 11pm and be back home at about 8am, in time for a full day's flying.

As for the A321s, the only airlines I'm aware of that are getting rid of them are bmi (some going to Monarch) and SAS, which has never been terribly good at this whole standardisation thingy (the term "smorgasbord" is particularly apt!), but they both have IAE engines. I think the attraction to EI is that this is the only type which could have costs per seat mile which could come anywhere close to FR's 738s, being a 212 seater.

I've been watching this all day, but I was under the impression that 90% of shares were required for a takeover of EI.

Ryanair offer already the subject of very extensive discussion on this thread in Rumours and News - let's keep it in one place.

Ei @ Lhr
 

Just wonderng about T5 and EI, even though it is leavng oneworld will EI still be using the new T5 or staying at T1?

It's staying where it is. Only BA in T5.

Or maybe MOL will build a tin shed next to T5 for RYR/EI flights.:E

Lets ask that question again....With EI probably maintaining its links with BA after leaving oneworld, Will EI move to T3 with the rest of the oneworld airlines as has already been confirmed before EI announced exiting the group????
I seriously doubt they will remain in T1 as a non-aligned carrier as STAR will be there, T4 is supposed to be the terminal where non-aligned carriers use!

Good point paddy, I had forgotten about that. I stand be corrected.

Ryanair losses
 

Leo Hairy-Camel "Yep, the very same. 8.5 million shares at €3.05. Yesterday’s market close was at €2.87, which makes for a loss of €1.53 million on the first day.
WELL DONE, LADS! Glad I don’t listen to the Dwarf for my investment advice. Gee whiz, I hope all this jiggery-pokery doesn’t drive the shares south of €2.80 again and into the sweet spot. RYR might yet not need to improve upon their offer after all. Thanks heaps, Evan. You are to investment advice what Bob Ayling was to the higher aspirations of corporate lawyers everywhere. HEMLOCK."


Let's look at this logically Mr. Hairy-Camel. The loss of 1.53million Euro pales into insignificance when compared to the loss of 193million Euro (note absence of decimal point :eek: ) in market cap by Ryanair over the last 10 days. Strangely enough this has happened since the Ryanair takeover bid for Aer Lingus was launched.

Check it out out : 16th October http://www.ise.ie/app/equityDetails.asp?equity=12724

6th October
http://www.ise.ie/app/equityDetails....tart_year=2006


Funny old thing that a lot of the press has concentrated on this relatively small loss by a Pension fund and not the massive lack of confidence displayed by the now ex-shareholders of Ryanair. I'd say your sweating under your 'stylish' checked collar. Your investors are baling out in numbers!

Enjoy the retirement.

could dobs intervention have any relevance to a story in last thursdays indo business section
a few weeks ago ryr ran a ad promoteing new flights from dublin-malta featureing a picture of him with the caption 'free flights all you pay is TAXES'
apparently haveing a go at o brien for registering a tax residency in malta

in the indo, daire o brien talked about how o brien was 'very sore at the jibe' and how o brien suddenly started dispensing advice to the esot.

wheather or not someone would actually buy millions of euro of overpriced shares because of a grudge is for you to decide!!!

Really, do you think all Michael O'Leary is above such behavior?

The Indo managed to predict this last Thursday
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independe...issue_id=14749

Called today to recommend a friend to join Ryanair as a Captain and was told FR was now stopping hiring Captains until next March. Could it be true?

I know they have stopped taking FO's until March. What has happened? Are FR cancelling deliveries?

Denis O'Brien is a shrewd businessman and wouldn't be paying out that kind of money because of some fit of pique.

There are three reasons he may have made this investment

• Because he anticipates a higher Ryanair bid and thinks he can make a profit fro this
• Because he sees Aer Lingus as a good medium-term investment
• Because he thinks that the companies share price doesn't reflect its the difference between its assets and liabilities and there is money to be made by breaking it up

840, you obviously have no clue about how big the ego's are of some businessmen here in Ireland. You only have to look at property developer Sean Dunne to see that in his purchase of the land at Jury's.

This of course is about Ego and this has now become a pathetic game between two of the biggest ego's you will ever come across. Add in the Unions, the Government, the Aer Lingus management also to that mix and it's a boiling pot of ego and testostrone that has no reason or attachment to reality.

It's pathetic.

Motives
 

Of course O Brien might have another motive

Hi Bertie

I have x% of Aer lingus and can help you out of a hole

Now, you know that small matter of Mr Mahon and his inquries

Ah, say no more Bertie, of course I will

Bye

I think the first motive is most likely, if it's just personal satisfaction he's after. Buy at €2.90 (or whatever) and get your opponent to buy at €3.5.

With the recent problems Bertie has had, he'll steer well clear of any behind the scenes deals.

What concerns me most of all is that, whatever people say of MOL, he's the only one who has presented anything close to a coherent vision of EI's future, whether you agree with it (or even believe it or not); it's more than a little concerning that his vision of EI is more exciting than DM's. I think the big concern I would have about the "stop FR" motive of EI, unions, etc is that it doesn't seem to go further than that. There are HUGE opportunities for EI out there, particularly on long haul, once the stopover nonsense is out of the way, but the danger is that once the stopover is out of the way, the American heavy guns - CO, DL, AA, US etc - will be throwing major capacity our way. If this happens, can EI on its own stand up to it? Is 12-14 787s going to be enough? It's not just the threat, but the opportunities which are of concern, and this is why I raised the issue of pre-clearance and customs issues last week (much the moderators' chagrin!).

I don't mean to cause offence to anyone in what I say and please don't take any, but given the choice, I'd much rather see EI and FR join forces (even if only on long haul) to take full advantage of this, than to see it fall to the US carriers; that's an unnecessary and avoidable outcome and it can be avoided, but only if EI puts pride aside.

Given the Taoiseach's recent success in bringing the DUP and SF together (despite the hitches), surely it would be a good idea for the govt to convene meetings of all the interested parties - IALPA, SIPTU, Ryanair (yes, in the same room), DO'B etc, so that a workable long term plan can be developed; the danger of a perception that there's fighting in the cockpit with no one flying the plane is appropriate here. Let's look beyond just "stopping FR" and make sure EI is well positioned for the opportunities ahead.

We're in dangerous waters here there is no doubt about it. This company was floated by the Government and whatever the unions say, their members in AL were behind it because they made a few bucks. The decision was made, you float a company, it is open to people buying or selling it's shares,
it's not very complicated really. And just because it's FR we now have this collective squeal from the usual suspects. The SIPTU mob (AKA "Burke's Mafia" in the old days), the bearded semi-state loons, the pension chasers in AL, the old Aer Rianta golden circle still in the DAA, the rabble that tried to fight FR long ago and stop them competing with AL (and BA for that matter). Remember folks the days of 3 million passengers? Empty aprons for the majority of the day, air fares out of reach of ordinary citizens, no development allowed at or around the airport?
Basically a big socialist grip on the main access point on this island.

It maybe different today, the airport is bursting and still the bearded loons cry foul if someone comes along and actually offers to build a new terminal out of their own goddamn pocket!

It's like Disneyland out there, always was and always will be as long as those Larkinite loons still cling onto power. Laughable to hear of them as well crying for a white knight like Emirates to swoop down and actually buy Aer Lingus!!!

SIPTU's heartfelt concern for competition is really touching. I presume they will now call for the deregulation of the electricity sector and open up the ESB to badly needed competition? Of course not, their workers on
140,000 grand a year at poolbeg would have a meltdown. how about Dublin Bus then? Irish Rail????

Bullseye from OneWorld22! Yes.

The Mrs and I spent about 5 hours at DUB waiting for a connecting flight last Friday. It was more than 5 years since my last visit to Dublin Airport and the airport now has so much easy success and money that headaches at Cork and Shannon can be sidelined indefinitely. Dublin is where it is all at to be sure at the Irish airports. Aer Lingus, Ryanair and the Dublin Airport Authority are making money hand over fist. No wonder Michael O'Leary wants to get a hold of Aer Lingus. I would bet he would like to takeover the DAA as well? There is little sentiment, it has to be all about maxing out profits.

The Aer Rianta golden circle still in the DAA. Nice one, OW22! You know your stuff and have been around the block all right. I salute you.

No progress on Open Skies ...

Interesting this, because with all the kerfuffle about EI and FR, the minister saw fit not to say anything about this publicly; the fact is that his trip to Europe last week to try and get progress on US access and approval for direct negotiations with the US wasn't successful. Here's the PQ ...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

*To ask the Minister for Transport the status of the transitional
Ireland US aviation agreement and the EU US Open Skies talks; if these
matters were discussed at the recent Council of Ministers meeting; the
outcome of these talks; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
- Olivia
Mitchell.

* For WRITTEN answer on Tuesday, 17th October, 2006.



Ref No: 33284/06

Answered by the Minister for
Transport
(Martin
Cullen)

REPLY

I can confirm that the EU US Open Skies deal was discussed at the
Transport Council on 12 October 2006. The Council underlined the
importance it attaches to the conclusion of the EU US air
transport agreement. It reaffirmed its unanimous satisfaction with the
text of the draft agreement negotiated in November 2005 but
regretted the further delay in the US position on the ownership and
control issue.

The Council requested the Commission to continue its efforts, on the
basis of further contacts with the United States to secure a
satisfactory and balanced outcome with the necessary safeguards,
including the transitional provisions, with a view to a decision at
the December Transport Council.
This would fulfill the commitments set out in the conclusion of the
June
2006 EU US Summit in which both parties reaffirmed the commitment to
reach agreement by the end of the year.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

That's all well and good, if it happens by year end - which many observers think is unlikely. BA, of course, is anxious to delay and obstruct the process as much as possible, since it clearly doesn't want more competition on t/a routes out of LHR. That said, how would it have POSSIBLY affected the EU, any airline competitors and indeed, the resolution of sticking points over EU/US Open Skies, if Ireland was given the go ahead to move ahead to relax the stopover, as last November's deal anticipated?

If the O/S deal doesn't go ahead by the end of the year, there's not going to be a lot of time for EI to adjust, particularly with schedules for two new acft to plan, and indeed other long haul routes to market and schedule, if it can't expand in the US. Really, we should have insisted on getting this last week.

"Further cuts needed at Aer Lingus" - CEO
 

Taken from RTE News

Further cuts needed at Aer Lingus - CEO

Mr Mannion said existing agreements would have to be re-examined, cost-cutting exercises would be implemented and there would be significant job losses.
It is understood Aer Lingus' catering section and its sales and marketing operations in the United States will come under scrutiny in a review of the airline's operations.
There are fears that that the proposed measures could lead to serious industrial unrest at the recently-floated airline.

Isn't it strange also, that just as the prospect of an FR takeover of EI arises, there seems to be a door for EI employees to take, to cash in their shares in the event of a takeover, with the added incentive of whatever tax deal FR works out?

Is DM/EI walking into a trap here? MO'L has clearly cottoned on to this ...

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusin...10007814.shtml

Alternatively, could it be that DM has finally tumbled to the realisation that EI's best hope of success on t/a routes - even when the stopover ratio is reduced - is to have FR on board as a partner? When the ratio is relaxed, the US carriers will make life very hard for EI, not just in the knowledge that EI might be leaning towards FR - something which they don't want to see happen, but also because if they can operate 3 flights to DUB for every 1 to SNN, they'd be mad not to. Whatever way you cut it, the intensity of competition on t/a routes is likely to increase drastically and maybe EI realises that the 12-14 acft it has been talking of won't be nearly enough - not just for survival, but to take advantage of the major opportunities ahead - but in order to take full advantage, EI needs the help of FR.

I suspect that DM is playing a very clever game; it could, of course, be a very serious error, but I'd like to give him the benefit of doubt ...

What a good move by RYR pilots get as many as you can, before they go up in price then sell them to MOL for a profit, make a bit of cash :D .
what other reason is there?

how about EI and FR pilots fancying some leverage over their respective managements if they end up being the casting votes?

But the thing is, MOL wont stop here if the takeover falls through,
he wont lose money or face, he will go head to head with EI and I would not put it past him to buy another airline or even just aircraft for longhaul and go head to head on all routes, EI will become a tiny airline with high prices and tiny routes its not what I want but its what MOL wants and he normaly gets what he wants. So if I worked for EI I would be thinking, do I
want to work for a timy airline that will be cutting routes and jobs or would I want to work for an airline that announces new routes almost every month and buys new a/c 3x a year.

daz211

The EI staff qute obviously don't share your opinion

en2r
 

so your telling me that MOL will just roll over, put his hands up, say
"o" well, never mind, It was worth a go and thats the end of it.
Now that would be Irish.

daz211

I really do not appreciate your racist comments. If you want to express your opinion thats fine but there is no need to start being racist to Irish people

I am so sorry if my comment upset you it was an attempt at a light hearted joke and I think you knew it:= , One half of my family is Irish from Dingal bay so I have nothing against the Irish, anyway you didnt answer my question, will he or wont he roll over ?

daz211

I didn't think it was a light hearted joke. I found it extremely insulting. Just because you have Irish relatives doesn't mean you can make derogitory comments about Irish people. I don't think MOL will just roll over, but at the same time I don't think Dermot Mannion will if given half a chance by the shareholders. I don't think Ryanair will enter the long haul in the foreseeable future if they don't take over Aer Lingus. I also think Aer Lingus are onto a gold mine with their expanding operations at Cork which leaves them with huge potential, especially given the fact that MOL had a big spat with Cork Airport

en2r
 

well once again Im sorry if I upset you:rolleyes: .
I myself would like RYR to start long haul flights, but I also think that
an EI take over might not be the best way forward, I would rather MOL
just bought some bigger wide bodied a/c and done it that way, however
I think he would rather take EI as this would show the likes of BA and VS
that he means business.