The lastest questionable idea for access to Dublin airport
 

The latest stupidity is that the metro is being designed with the station that's supposed to serve the airport being planned to be under the Great Southern Hotel. That's over 800 Mtrs from the terminal, the wrong side of all the access roads, and with at present no usable pedestrian links to the terminal. Unless they come up with a VERY good design for a fast, accessible, powered covered travelator/walkway system, then it might be simpler and cheaper to forget the idea, as it won't get used. Could the concept that DAA owns the Great Southern, so will be able to make massive charges for "interlinking" to the terminal perhaps be connected, or is this a way to give DAA a "backhander" to reduce the debt mountain, the "cost" of putting the metro under the hotel needs to be watched VERY closely to ensure that there's not some "interesting" curved balls here!!!!

I was under the mistaken impression that an underground rail service to an airport terminal was supposed to connect to the terminal, not to some spurious location half a mile away that has no connections to the terminal worth talking about at present.

In view of the moderators problems with us using "strong" language about politicians and the like, I shall refrain from anything stronger, but I despair, whoever came up with this half baked insane concept is even more divorced from reality than the rest of the eejits that supposedly are in charge of Ireland's most successful pub!

ARRGH!!

Well, I suppose no one is trying to sell Dublin Airport, but they are trying to sell the hotel, so why not promise to run the metro to it?

While I think of it, doesn't the terminal already have a basement that was intended to be used for a rail link? So why go the expense and engineering complexity of building a metro station under a hotel?

JAS

Hopefully they don't come up with a people mover like Pearson's to link Metro with the terminal(s) - more like a rollercoaster I hear.

Steve, very good point...

EI-RB, here's one to stir things up, under current Road Traffic Legislation (I can dig up the Act & Section if needs be) HGV's are prohibited from using the carraigeway adjacent to the central margin on Motorways, largely ignored as you may have guessed. The entrance to the Port Tunnel from the M1 will involve HGV traffic moving to these prohibitied outside lanes - leading into the tunnel and all other surface city traffic, ie faster moving cars, taxis etc moving to the inside lanes. Apart from the chaos, imagine the court case following the inevitible collision...

:sad:

EI-RB

I doubt the combined brainpower of a politically appointed board like DAA could manage more than one business unit at a time. If they had a business case to keep the DUB GSH (but not under GSH name) I could understand it but the rest including the brand should be flogged. Perhaps an existing hotel group with an unexciting name (Lynch Hotels springs to mind) would go for the rather grander brand and pay a premium to acquire it.

Well EI-RB given that I am a civil engineer I can only say that we build what the architects and planners give us.

Rule no.1 for a civil engineer. when all goes wrong blame the architect!

DUBLIN - EIDW 28/10 PARALLEL RUNWAY
 

Anyone know when construction due to start on the new 28/10 rwy at EIDW???

About 25 years after it is required,

subject to about ten years of Environmental Impact Assessments, then

followed by another ten years of objections from the residents of Portmarnock. (All of whose houses were built after the plans for the runway were proposed).

A330busdriver

A330busdriver have you actually looked at the facts yet?
I agree its about 25years after its required, however most of the houses in Portmarnock were in fact built well before plans for the first 28/10 runway was planned.
There is a lot of new developments in the Portmarnock area in fact right under the current flight path however the large majority are there since the vickers days of Aerlingus.
The answer of another runway is just the cheap answer to the problem, another Airport is the solution to the problem, and think of all those people who could travel to Baldonel without having to use a toll road! Maybe thats why its not being used as a second Airport because the gov have no toll road to it yet!!!!! Dublin Airport is surrounded by toll roads.

dublin
 

The second main runway as proposed by the DAA has been in the Fingal master plan for at least 30 years the present plan even allows for land to extend both the existing10/28 and the new runway.The runway will get the go ahead as the terminal 2 and extra piers are being built and also the metro is due to stop at the airport.So it looks as if all efforts are pointed at the one airport.I live a couple of miles down from the airport and most people accept the fact that the airport is going to grow with more traffic both air and road.All the residents in Portmarnock can hope for is better noise levels from newer aircraft and better flight paths.

Where? The M50 (Westlink) toll is nearby but where else are these toll roads that surround the airport? I pass it everyday & the only tolled road I deal with is the M50.

2nd Airport option
 

Oddly enough ...

the State currently owns a second facility with Motorway access AND near by rail link ... no not Baldonnel (no rail link) but Gormanstown (EIGM), which is currently not used. OK, the main runway is short (but could be extended, just look at Weston, and yes I know the 'extension' is currently not 'runway'). :hmm:

No wait, sorry it's a non runner, the government party Finna Fail has promised to give the land to their buddies in the property development sector to build houses. :rolleyes:

Oh well

JAS

They need a new airport for Dublin?? Are you mad???

The space around the current site is fine. Its only 6miles from the city center. The only tolls I can think of are for the M25 Toll Bridge, THe M1 way up past Drogheda and when the Dublin Port Tunnel opens. I live in Malahide, my house will be very much effected by the new runway yet very few people in my area are kicking up a fuss. After all, the airport was there long before most of us were.

All they really need to do with dublin airport is blow up the terminal and start all over with a nice swanky design.

Mr. Brown,

I don't think devloping Baldonnel into an international airport is the solution to the NIMBY problem, just look at the problems Weston has run into in the past few years.

Now just super impose Dublin airport's opeartion flying all over Baldonnel and I'd say you would have a few complaints!

True Dublin could do with a 'new' airport, but I don't see anything wrong with it's current location. So with a new airport will come a new runway and terminals, I don't see a runway as being a 'cheap' solution to the problem, and I don't think 3000x45M worth of concrete will be cheap!

MK

Anyone coming from the North and the West nearly all have to pay a toll just to get to the airport at the moment.
Another Airport at Baldonel would allow the massive market from the midlands much easier access and would be an ideal location for a main cargo terrminal in the Dublin region.
Unfortunatley another runway is on the way no matter how much people(including my self) give out about it, If the Gov want it they'll get it. Just like the Nice treaty!
It seems to be the cheaper solution to build another runway not a cheap solution. Like everything in Ireland it's half arsed! They build the M50 to help congestion in the centre of Dublin and to ease the movement of people from one side of the city to the other, but the cheap way was to build it with two lanes either side. Yeh everyone is happy. Now its as congested as the city centre. Why not initially build it with 3 lanes in the first place?
We need a bit more foresight fom our gov!
Before the land, for the new plans @ Dublin Airport, was sold I ask who owned it? Some of our local politicians maybe!
Another scam infront of our eyes!
Eircom used to be a state company, I know lets sell it to the taxpayers and overvalue the shares!
Scam after scam

Mr. Brown - do you honestly believe that if a new airport was developed at Baldonnel that there wouldn't be a toll road to get to it from the North or West? Toll roads appear to be the future in Ireland, whether we like it or not.

I'd like to see Baldonnell opened as a commercial airport, but i believe the Air Corps don't want to leave it or share it.

A new airport on a green field site would involve massive construction of more roads, rail links etc., & would increase journey times for the majority of people who currently use DUB. I don't want to travel to (for example) Mullingar or Athlone to catch a flight to London. Even if it is €0.01 e/w + tax ;)

Mr Brown,

the DAP development plan is over thirty years old. The area to the north of Malahide Golf course, and the green belt which was built on some fifteen to twenty years ago - Dal Riada etc is directly under the proposed appraoch path as far as I recall.

Part of the solution to the M50 would be the removal of the toll plaza which generates such lenghty delays daily.

Perhaps the real scam that you should be crowing about is the manner in which the County master plan was ignored when some of these housing estates in the green belt were approved.

I remember the new east-west runway being talked about around Baldoyle and Portmarnock in the early 70's, around the same time as the Viscounts were sitting in Penguin Alley and Martello and other estates were being built in Portmarnock. Maybe the people who moved into the new houses didn't know about the planned runway, but the locals sure did.

I lived for 25 years around the southern 'village' area of Portmarnock, the end closest to the current 28 approach, about 1.5km north of the current 28 outer marker. The noise levels are not an issue in my opinion. When it is noisy is when 10 is in use and the aircraft are taking off over Portmarnock. Even so, noise at the north end of Portmarnock (the most built up area and 2-3km further north) is considerably less and of very little concern at all.

It would seem to me that the sensible thing to do under normal conditions is make approaches on the current runway, which will be 28L/10R and take offs from the new northern runway, which will take the departing traffic out further to the north and thus further away from urban areas. More traffic movements perhaps but no increase in noise over Portmarnock.

With an easterly wind, using the current runway for take off (which would then be 10R) will bring the departing aircraft between the southern (less built up) side of Portmarnock and Baldoyle. Approaching aircraft to 10L will again be further to the north than the current approach path thus lessening noise for residents west and southwest of the airfield.

End result, more arrivals or departures for Portmarnock residents but noise from any particular aircraft will be the same levels they currently are. In terms of all the residents in the vicinity of the airfield there would be a reduction in the total noise levels.

Glad I don't live there anymore. Many of those local residents groups made me :ugh: and :yuk:

Maybe they'd be more understanding if they'd lived in Swords or Coolock in the days of Tridents and 1-11's.

Just looking at DrKevs post.

I too lived in Portmarnock for most of my life. Noise was not an issue and we are talking about the days of BAC 1-11's and 737-200's etc, etc. When the last Ryanair 200 completed it's final flight, the noise problems, of which Portmarnock residents have ranted on about for so long, disappeared.

I can't blame the Portmarnock people for giving out though. Now that the Velvet Strand has more or less washed away, there's not much else to do!!

Hell, I'd wager that the reverse thrust on the tridents (and 1-11s) was noisier listening FROM Portmarnock than the current aircraft approaching! Sometimes the house would actually rumble and that was, what, 6km away? Of course there is still the odd Tupolev and Ilyushin flying in but that's about as bad as it gets nowadays.

Just a few points that come to mind:

Positive, you mentioned that there is provision for an extension of the current 10/28; although there's no interest in doing that by the DAA (they'll need to be told to do so), does the fact that it's included in the "plan" mean that the planning process will be quicker, i.e. no EIS? (The likelihood is, of course, that 10/28 will remain at its current length despite the need for new long haul flights/cargo routes.)

The Fingal CC plan provides for a new terminal complex between what will be the two runways; however, current plans call for the Metro to serve the "old" (i.e. current) complex. Hopefully, someone will be done in due course to make sure this happens.

The one thing that the DAA/govt should have learned from the current debacle is that planning needs to be initiated a long time in advance; that the new T2 was revealed as insufficient SIX MONTHS after completion is unacceptable. However, what action has been taken to initiate the tendering process? None, as far as I can see.

Irish Independent gone a bit mad?
 

Has the Indo lost the plot or it's marbles (from today's issue):

New routes will add to Dublin Airport chaos

CHAOTIC scenes at Dublin Airport will worsen dramatically with up to 3m extra passengers set to pass through its single terminal next year.

Commuters face further nightmare queues and delays after Ryanair announced 12 new routes from Dublin.

They will begin from December to February. The news comes a day after the Dublin Airport Authority admitted that passengers already face delays until 2009 at the earliest.

Jeez, of the 12 routes anounced 2 are daily and the rest average 3 a week so let's say an average of 7 new flights a day which is just under 1m extra passengers if every seat was sold. Hardly a crisis attributable to Ryanair.

Come on Indo, that's a bit crap.

"passengers already face delays until 2009"

Holy smokes, 3 years delay? That must be a record?

I gave up reading the Indo the day their headline spelt Aer Lingus as "Air Lingus".

The Irish Independent is complete and utter tabloid ****e from cover to cover.

And the worst part of it is that when that new terminal opens up, it will already be too little too late (cliched term, I know); they argue about the precise size of the terminal, but the important fact is that it has only one pier - only side of which can handle widebodies (the net gain of w/b stands being only 2 or 3, because they also lose the Pier C w/b stands). Can a single pier handle 15m pax per annum.

The really annoying thing is that FF are probably waiting until after the next election to dump the deal they did with the PDs over the future operation of DUB. If they had any sense or interest in aviation policy, they would have started planning/tendering for T3 (and ensuring that the metro line can serve it). That new terminal needs to be open around 2012. If they learn only one lesson, it should be that air transport capacity needs to be planned YEARS in advance. The current govt has shown that it's unwilling to take any pro-active measures in aviation and needs to be pitchforked into doing anything positive. I certainly hope aviation and the state of DUB will be an issue at the next election.

Sadly the only issue regarding DUB in the next election campaign may be the proposed 10L/28R (or rather the opposition to it). The more 'common sense' issues tend to get ignored. :rolleyes:

kopbhoy2

Exactly. Win votes by siding with those who shout loudest, for there in lies the publicity. :sad:

Basement
 

When will the new basement RYANAIR check-in area be opening in Dublin Airport?

When Ryanair move down there, congestion in the Departures will be reduced significantly... :ok:

Better congested than empty in any case :cool:

Basement Checkin AKA underground rail station
 

Yes

great planning all round ... the terminal basement, originally intended to be the underground rail station... you can see the meeting that decided on that one now

DAA Manager 1, "We don't have enough check in space ... what should we do ...?"

DAA Manager 2, "We could plonk them on top of the short term car park!"

DAA Manager 3, "Dont be silly, think of the car parking revenue we'd loose, look at all those lovely spaces!"

DAA Manager 1, "How about we build a new terminal?"

DAA Manager 2, "It'll take too long, there's bound to be some planning objections and that'll just be from Ryanair!"

DAA Manager 3, "We could knock down his hangar to build the terminal!"

DAA Manager 2, "Why don't we put the new checkin desks in the basement!"

DAA Manager 1, "BRILLIANT!"

DAA Manager 3, "But isn't the Metro link supposed to go in there?! Where'll we put the rail link!"

Managers in unison, "Under the hotel! Think of the extra revenue of selling the hotel with it's own rail link!!"

Nah ... couldn't have happened like that ... could it?

JAS

The basement was NEVER intended to be a train station. I've no idea where that rumour came from - I think it might just have been nicknamed the train station and that became accepted knowledge. But it was always just a basement.

RogerIrrelevant, O'Leary boasted that this announcement would create an extra 200 jobs in Dublin. If we assume that FR carry 40 million pax this year surely then they should have 8000 staff. Likewise if we assume 200 staff for every 3 aircraft then 110 aircraft would add up to 7,400 staff. He claims to have less than 3000 staff however so that doesn't quite add up.

For the 3 aircraft involved lets say 4.5 crews each which gives 27 pilots. I would be amazed if they needed more than 50 CC. It is hard to imagine he needs 120 others staff considering the operation he already has in Dublin.

As usual nothing really adds up. :rolleyes:

Faire d'income

When Ryanair refer to the number of jobs new routes will create it is in reference also to all the indirect jobs created: bus drivers, cleaners, caterers, airtraffic controllers :}, and I dunno what else ;)

Hi FlyingV

Maybe this is the source of the confusion "The two story basement has, naturally enough, always been there. Collier says that it was originally designed to be a concourse area for a rail or Metro link from Dublin city."

The Collier here being Declan Collier, Chief Exec of the DAA. The interview is at the bottom of the page.

http://www.ihf.ie/news/innsight/05-12inn/page5-8.htm

JAS

I do - lawyers!!!

Or prison warders for Comical Eddie, the perjuror? :E

Details on the second terminal are apparently to be released this afternoon.

http://breaking.tcm.ie/2006/08/30/story274561.html

DAA - "New Terminal to Transform Dublin Airport"
 

Hey Guys,

Just wondered what everyone thinks of the plans for the new T2?
Having worked in Dublin airport in the past, I think there building it in the wrong place. The plans show it to replace the "C Pier" which was only officially opened in June 1998. So why are they replacing the newest terminal to make way for the NEW newest terminal?

Oh yeah, does anybody know how much it cost to build the C Pier? Just curious :D

S.C. :ok: