Cabincrewe, I'm noticing a theme with your posts : negativity. Why do you seem to think that companies are going to fail ? We'll see in a year as you say.

I think you will find that there is quite a strong bond between NWI/MAN and
Den Helder in a quite high value business so I don`t see a reason in it not doing well.

Chaps

Not negativity. Reality.

I've flown MAN-NWI four times in the last few months, and there's never been more than two or three seats free. Unlike T3, BE can offer loads of handy connections in MAN (BHD and GLA for me) and the route appears to be doing very well out of connecting passengers.

Loganair
 

It appears that Loganair is merging Suckling into the Loganair brand.

Here's a quote from the Suckling Airways thread

"Sad day, all remaining CBG staff have been served notice, Suckling AOC to be relinquished, and everything to be absorbed by Logan. Merlyn has resigned as a director. End of era."

> The exeter route is finished in March, word is that a second aircraft
> will be based NWH.
>

Has it finished early?! Trying to book next couple of weeks but FlyBE website only offering me flights via MAN.

Den Helder doesn't seem to start until early March though?

andy - the ever reliable (!) wikipedia indicates the NWI-EXT route ended on 04 January 2013.

BRR / BEB & BEB / SYY Flight cuts
 

Seen in the press:-
As a result of budget cuts, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar ( Western Isles Islands Council) PSO Flights (operated by Loganair) between Barra and Benbecula will end. In addition, services between Stornoway and Benbecula will be reduced to three days a week unless NHS Western Isles will commit to paying cost price for flights.

- Not so good!:*

Which press? Can't find anything confirming this, even on the Western Isles Council website? Any pointers?

Thanks virginblue. A sad day. :(

Any consideratin being given to a saab340 replacement? would some new ATR42-600 be able to do the Highland Island job, if so, would be a good fit for them, but cant see them putting their hands in their pockets!

The Press & Journal, the organ of social comment, NOT! makes me want to :yuk:

For reliable reporting in the H & I there is only one organ, the WHFP :ok:

BRR, NWI
 

Not good news if true, having flown on it a few times in 2010 and 2011 however there were never been more than 3/4 pax on board. Back in BA franchise days it was a steal at £25 return, the flight was advertised as a 'sightseeing flight' and you came straight back from BEB. On a clear sunny day the views were incredible

As for NWI-MAN, I used this route weekly in 2007-8, it was never less than 80% full. The alternative train journey is awful, 2 carriage over crowded trains and a 4 hour + journey time. I think this route probably does very well for Loganair/BE.

Your more likely to get an Islander flying the inter-island routes than an ATR.

Those short sectors would kill the airframe cycles and it has way to many seats.

I am sure George could get a couple of airframes based up in Stornoway and then run a bus service up and down. No hostie single pilot. Might work.

Those short interisland routes kill aircraft cycles so will always cost a premium.

Must admit I could never see it working after the Jetstream 31's came off the routes. As much as some punters hated them.

The islands demand something with a high x wind limit, about 30 seats max doesn't need to be that fast.

There really isn't that much on the market that fills the neiche. J41 too expensive and a bit rubbish for wheelchairs. Shed would sort of work but none of them about now and rubbish in xwinds. Dash 8 200/300 would work although a bit on the big side and also issues with airframe cycles.

Everything else is a bit to big.

Although to be honest the thought of flying between the islands in an Islander really wouldn't appeal to me.

SYY-BEB-BRR
 

This route used to be flown by Loganair Trislanders in the early 80s with the aircraft stationed at SYY. It was then replaced by a Twin Otter for a few years and then an Islander then back to the Twin Otter (I think).
Highland AIrways took over the PSO contract INV-SYY-BEB-SYY-INV from Loganair and used J31s until sadly Highalnd Airways went under.
Loganair/flybe then reinstated the link between SYY-BEB as an extension of the INV-SYY service on SF340s.
It's an important link for the Island communities but not commercially viable in its own right sadly.
Back in the late 60s and early 70s when BEA/BritishAirways operated Scottish highlands and islands themselves, flights were on a Viscount 800 operating GLA-BEB-SYY-INV-SYY-BEB-GLA Daily except Sunday.
Just a useless bit of trivia I felt like throwing in.

And those Viscounts seated 80+ as against the Saab 340's 34

SYY-BEB-BRR 2
 

Scotbill

True, True.
However, the flight operated just once a day Mon-Sat, and the schedule prevented any 'day return' options.
When BA formed Highlands Division in 1982 and re-equipped with HS748s the GLA-SYY and INV-SYY went to double daily (ex Sat 1 flight only and Sun No flights)) and the SYY-BEB-BRR-BEB-SYY was operated by Lognair (at that time an independent airline) Mon-Fri only..
Loganair operated SYY-BEB-SYY twice a day and then onward connection to BRR (3 x per week I think) on the morning rotation SYY-BEB. Cant recall how long it continued for, certainly Highland Airways didnt op BEB-BRR.
I might have been wrong in thinking the LC Trislander/Twin Otter night stopped in Stornoway, it might have operated GLA-SYY early morning mail/newspaper flight and then SYY-GLA around 5:30pm, again as a Mail/Newspaper flight; slipping in 2 x SYY-BEB-SYY inbetween.
More useless trivia :-)

Loganair
 

mad_jock not wanting to rain on your parade but Loganair carries the papers daily to Shetland. Maybe some goes by ferry but I doubt it.

The omission of Sunday was governed by Lewis Sabbatarianism and the original Viscount schedule being Gla-Beb-Sto-Inv-Sto-Beb-Gla did indeed permit some one day trips - to Beb at least.
(Nit-picking mode off)

The important point is that the larger aircraft with reasonable fares could carry a lot of people and all the papers and mail. I believe the later ATP seated 66.
The current Saab 340 full return fare to Bennie is about £375 and the 34 seater is often half full. (BEA Pionairs carried 32 in the 50s)

We should not forget that commercial aviation came to the islands before it was seen to be a practical alternative to trains on the mainland. That early market has been seriously damaged by fares out of all proportion to the rest of the aviation world. (Resident discounts are no use to the Hebridean diaspora or potential visitors/businessmen)

It is a major problem in the Hebrides as Elf 'n Safety, Working Time Directives and fears of litigation make the ferry services more and more erratic in winter - while convoys of campers in summer make last minute emergency bookings difficult for locals.

Scotbill

You keep banging on about this 375 airfare.

If you book in advance its a third of that. Booking on the day because your ferry isn't sailing is always going to result in a high fare.

This happens pretty much everywhere that provides the same kind of route and aircraft.

Please stop comparing larger aircraft operated in the past. There is a reason why they no longer are in use, largely down to fuel and operating costs greatly increased during the last 30 years....... The demand never required an 80+ seat aircraft anyways, they just did that because they had them available and could afford to do it.

If you want make a valid point, tell me of a comparable operation that doesn't charge these fares?

The Viscounts were operated by state owned BEA/BA and operated much as a public service. No commercially focussed business would operate in that manner without a subsidy.

State owned BEA, while not always successful, did its best to try and make a profit.

I did point out that the people suffering are those who cannot book in advance for whatever reason.


If you want to make a valid point, tell me of a comparable operation that charges these fares for 45 minute flights and is happy to operate half full.

Maybe Eastern?

There is no comparable operation........

Thats my valid point.

The reason why the operations you refer to from the past no longer exist is that it was not economically viable.

To operate on the premise that 34 punters are going to turn up each flight for a third of the price is daft to say the least.

It has been said to you before, that model does not apply and it wasn't successful when costs were much, much less decades ago.

Much as I agree, who would enjoy paying that price, it is what it is.....

The alternative is no schedule service at all and don't think for one minute Loganair won't pull out if it starts costing money rather than making a small profit.

Eastern
 

Yeah! Eastern does do pretty much the same.

I stand corrected, thanks!

Great attempt to defend the indefensible - but would it be unfair to summarise your stance as:

"Sod the punters - who needs them!"

It's funny, I just looked up Glasgow to London with an airline using a nice big plane for tomorrow and the cheeky blighters wanted 340 quid.

How dare they eh?

Brilliant selective use of statistics - early Monday morning commuter flight.
For the rest of the day fares range from £111 - £146 - for a journey of 400+ miles against 160+

Your own recommended method of booking three weeks in advance would have produced cheaper fares of course.

I can understand your loyalty in defending your employer's economics and I don't expect you to accept how much your airline has failed the people of the Hebrides.

So I leave the field to your unique brand of economics.

Edinburgh - Manchester day return tomorrow: £351.97
Benbecula - Stornoway day return tomorrow: £142.00

Happy now??

High fares are nothing new. I've been flying to and from SYY for over 20 years. It was regularly £100 return if you booked in advance from GLA back in the BA days. But I rember a last minute flight to INV one way was £120 this was back in 1999. Admittedly the average price is higher now but 14 years on I'd expect that. Nobody has failed anyone. It's simple supply and demand.

The best I've seen was £55 return and that was on BMI when they operated te route and we know how that route ended.

Lets not forget there is a choice on the island and that is to fly Eastern or flyBE/Loganair. However I'd put money on saying the T3 flight is a lot more expensive on average. It's certainly been more than I've been willing to pay.

I wonder if flyBE "mainline" would work with an occasional DH8 flight. Or if we'd ever see an LCC in SYY? For the purpose of this discussion I do not class flyBE operated by Loganair as an LCC.

The sheer irrelevance of your Beb-Sto example has tempted me back.

Beb - Sto = 50+ miles Edi -Man = 200 miles

Unfortunately you picked a bad day for your example.

Flybe day return tomorrow Gla - Beb - £429

If it needs spelling out - the previous example on Gla Lon illustrates the normal airline philosophy that you increase the fares as the plane fills up. So the early commuter service to the capital is obviously full. Later there are bargains to be had.

I doubt very much whether tomorrow's Beb services are full.

And now I really will leave the field :ugh:

Scotbill wrote:-

"Great attempt to defend the indefensible - but would it be unfair to summarise your stance as:

"Sod the punters - who needs them!""

whereas you believe the airline should risk going bust so people who are in a hurry at the last minute can fly cheaply? Where have you been for the last 30 years? It's not just airlines who operate a last minute booking = more cash policy - it applies everywhere these days

Why are you guys so obsessed with price vs. distance? It has never worked like this in the airline industry. With that logic, flights like BEB-SYY should only cost pocket money because you can fly TATL return for 400 quid or so which is like 40 times the distance than BEB-SYY. Even if you get into a cab, you have an initial fare and only on top of that the meter kicks in, making short rides disporportionately expensive.

Just out of curiosity and from a distance - what is Eastern's selling point as they have been soldiering on for a couple of years? Do they hold a contract by the NHS or someone else?

I wonder if Scotbill had his own business, would he allow it to run it at a loss?
The lack of public funds are to blame here, the routes in question all have PSO status which just about allows the operator to break even on the routes.
This is the same the world over.

Eastern may be supporting some oil field work _ I think there was something (?construction work?) going on at Arnish and maybe the odd supply or seismic boat may be calling in for the West of Shetlands fields

Shame Scotbill has left the conversation. He seems such a delight, and a fountain of knowledge.

I think one of the attractions of Eastern is that it offers a convenient one stop connection for those who work offshore out of Aberdeen. Other than that I'm not sure. There are many students from the island in the Aberdeen area but I can't imagine many students would pay the prices to go home via Eastern.

Aberdeen is further than Inverness from syy and I bet the landing / handling fees are more expensive also

Never mind that there will be nearly 80 quids worth of tax and airport charges on a ABZ-SYY-ABZ flight.

And 250 quid return booked over a month in advance with 80 quid of that taxes seems resonable enough for 2 45 min sectors on a J41.

Loganair
 

Loganair/Flybe announce codeshare from Donegal to Heathrow via DUB.

SEE HERE http://www.donegaldaily.com/2013/02/19/donegal-airport-announces-new-connections-to-london/