flybe more q400's?
 

There's a strong rumour within flybe that the company has now placed an order for more q400's which will take the fleet to about 40, with 3 or 4 destined for NEMA and another 3 or 4 for MAN.
Looks like the response to baby we have been waiting for...anyone else heard anything?

Not exactly correct. In addition to the 4 x DHC8-400s already in the fleet at the time, a firm order was placed for an additional 17, with 20 options on top. The fleet is now at the 17/21 point, and an annoucement is due on the 20 options "...by the end of the winter season." which ends March 2005.

With regard to EMA and MAN bases, I would say with some confidence that MAN is a definite no, and EMA highly unlikely given its proximity to BHX. However, that is not say that there won't be any Charter ops from there, but any Scheduled ops would, as with NCL, have the aircraft originating elsewhere.

I guess the decision on the 20 x DHC8-400 options is awaiting the primary decision regarding 150 seat aircraft. What is a little surprising, given the steady rise in oil prices, and the excellent fuel economy and performance of the 400, is the plan to retain 10 - 12 146s. If the 150 seat decision went in favour of A319s, then A318s could also be obtained to cater for shorter strips such as SOU, giving the big advantage of common type-ratings.

Overall, there is a plan, and it seems to be working very well.

Hi.
When are the new aircraft due to arrive and when the courses are planned for?
Thanks!

I presume you're talking about the 400. The next 1 arrives in December, and the 1 after that is in April next year.

Recruitment & Courses - no idea, but presumably there should be a steady stream of recruitment as the numbers of aircraft grow, unless of course 146s get chopped in synch with 400s arriving, in which case existing pilots will just change fleets.

You think? :rolleyes:

I doubt that many 146 drivers will want to change to the Q400, as it is more or less a demotion. I suspect many would rather leave.

Good for new guys though.

I heard a rumour they were going to get some 73's Anyone else heard that or are they looking at the A318 as mentioned above which I would guess would have the performance for SOU?

MOR

Actually whilst a 'demotion' onto the Dash might seem like a reason for 146-crew to leave, a lot of them are staying. FO's are being given Dash commands, and those 146 Capt's who change are keeping their jet salary. Not all that many are going.

Perhaps this may have some effect on future fleet plans

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/bu...?id=1318572004

That certainly is an interesting article in "The Scotsman".

I can understand floating the company, say on the AIM market which would give access to more capital and funding whilst still allowing the current management to keep control, whereas to sell the Company would risk losing control over policy etc. The new owners could have a completely different idea of which way they want the business to develop, with key management figures leaving over policy differences.

I greatly admire how the current management have transformed the airline and grabbed the opportunities available in the Regions. It would be a shame if all this progress was lost.

We will just have to wait and see what develops.

...what i don't understand is that the financial times recently reported that flybe had made a profit of 40 million pounds selling slots at lhr and at the same time announced that they expect a modest profit of 3.1 mill. pounds for the year ending 31.3.2003...

even with a respectable profit growth rate for the financial year 2004-5 how can they be making that much money flying aeroplanes?

Would any a/c be destined for Liverpool with four new routes announced and four more domestic routes in the pipeline plus some to France mentioned.

troubleatthemill,

Flybe made significant losses during 2001/02 and 2002/03. Nearly all the monies made from the sale of the LHR slots went straight back to the Walker family who had bailed the company out over those few years. Any monies left over were used to ensure robustness over the planned fleet change and as deposits to secure new aircraft (Q400's).

Flybe are now on a sound financial footing, with growth running at around 35%. more importantly, and rare in the current market is that yield has increased by 10% so far this year. This is allowing Flybe to record an operating profit, (for the past 6mths), for the first time in 5 years.

MOR - Demotion in what respect?

146 Captains transferring to the 400 would keep their jet salaries, and as far as performance and technology are concerned the 400 is surely a step forward. The 400 will outclimb the 146 most of the time, and at 'normal' operating cruise speeds they're evenly matched, with the 400 having to throttle back to avoid overspeeding, and the 146 driver caning it for all its worth.

Don't get me wrong, I like the 146, and the 400 will never come close to the quality of landings achieveable with that lovely trailing link undercarriage, or last anywhere near as long as the 146s have, but you cannot say that the 400 is a demotion. Those that have transferred so far are enjoying the experience.

Well you must be 400 pilot then.

The 146 might be slow for a jet, but it is quicker than the Q400, and yes, we too have to "throttle back" to avoid overspeeding. How do know this? I have passed many a Q400 in a 146.

It is demotion from the point of view that, if you ever want to move on, the fact that you have gone from a jet to a turboprop will limit your opportunities. You might say that the Q400 is more advanced etc, but in reality turboprop time is never as valuable as jet time - if you don't believe me, ask around amongst chief pilots in larger (all jet) operations. Many see the 146 (as the slowest jet out there) as being the minimum qualification. The Q400 is smaller, lighter, and simpler, and none of those qualities make it a good career move. And, as you point out, virtually impossible to land gently.

And, quite frankly, I would much rather be in the relatively quiet environment of a 146 cockpit than in the somewhat noisier Q400 one. I would far rather have the antiquated 146 systems than the temperamental Q400 computers. And I have no desire to have to go back to iced-up props, inop prop synch systems, and all the other crap you have to put up with when flying turboprops. I like having an APU too.

People will go from the 146 to the Q400 because they are forced into it, or because they are offered a carrot - no other reason.

:ugh:

MOR I think not only is "Flybe.com" a Q400 pilot but also demonstrates a total lack of knowledge of the 146 - so therefore couldn't have flown it in the past either.

146 cruise = 0.72M Q400 = 0.59M (the maths I leave to your self). With comparable percantage loads the Q400 will not out climb a 146 when matching IAS. I have driven both and have rarely had to throttle back in the cruise in the Q400. It is a machine that essentially disallows lateral thinking as the computers can not often be cheated. I would like to see a Q400 airframe last the test of time some of the older 146s have.

Flybe.com, you have demonstrated beautifully what I like to call "penis envy"!:uhoh:

Gear up Shut up

Thanks for saying what I really wanted to say, but, in a foolish attempt to be nice, didn't!! :ok:

Any aircraft that has to go back to the factory for a three month "re-manufacture" because it wasn't built strongly enough in the first place, isn't for me.

I predict that the Q400 will have major issues before it is ten years old.

I used to position on them a lot, and I used to find my "outside" foot would go numb with the constant buzzing vibration coming from the cabin side mouldings.

The explanation was that this was because the props were out of balance. It would be solved, we were told, when all the props had a serious balancing. That worked for about two weeks, then they needed doing again - but of course that seldom happened as the line engineers were to busy fixing other problems.

Then there were the days when we would push back, only to be told that everything was about to go "dark", as all the electrics had to be turned off to reset some errant computer. Wonderful stuff.

It may be over-powered, but in every other way, it is a dog.

I could go through the list of points you've made and, for the benefit of others reading this thread, detail why most of them are wrong, but I'm not really interested in a 'mine is better than yours' argument. Except to say that you know what the day to day reality is, and how inacurrate some of your comments are. I just wanted to know why you considered the 400 a demotion. With regard to that question, where you say...
It's a good job the guy that's just got himself a job at Cathay didn't come to you for advice before he moved from the 146 to the 400 some time ago?

and one of the other jobs he would've liked wasn't feasible because they wanted to pay him cadet wages as he wasn't current on a jet! Most of the PA's that check out cv's only look as far as your current type...the Q400 does you no favours there. Anyone who thinks that weather bashing all winter surrounded by whirling discs isn't a demotion probably hasn't flown a 'jet'.

Oh OK then. Because ONE person got a job at Cathay (presumably as a S/O on the "C" scale), this somehow proves the Q400 as worthy step?

Don't think so. You are just revealing your lack of industry knowledge.

The reason you don't want to answer the points here is that, well, you can't. We all know how fast the 400 is (or rather, isn't), and what some of its problems are. The other issues are obvious to anyone who has flown a jet.

Has it ever occured to you to wonder why nobody else wants to buy the thing? Here's a thing you can do... go to the Bombardier website and count the number of Q400 orders, then count the number of CRJ orders. You will note that they seem to be selling the CRJ at about 10:1 compared to Q400 sales.

Keep waving the flag, though...

Jamesair .

I share your admiration for the way JF has kept it alive for the last couple of years . THey were hours away from running out of cash on several occasions a few years ago . As far as strategy goes , the owners (Walker family trust) have never made any secret of their intentions :- get our money back , sell !

Seems simple enough and i doubt they give a monkeys about anything else.

Jobsagoodun

10 increase in yield would be impressive if the yield is 18 or 20 %. Not so impressive if net yield is 1% giving an increase of .1%.

Growth of 35% is all well and good , how much of it is profitable ?
HAve you looked at a balance sheet recently?

Heard all this stuff when it was Jersey European and then British European , nothing changes .

As regards the 150 seat jet , heard that one 5 years ago as well .Will flybe pilots be flying the 150 seat jets from BHX next year ?


Regarding a trade sale Im sure that lots of people will be looking very closely at flybe's LGW slots and that is probaby the only reason anyone would buy it.

Not a flybe bash , know some great people there . Just a reality check.

NF