I would say that I reckon (as the market for pilot employment is so different today than it was post 9/11) that more pilots under threat will look and find employment elsewhere compared to the number who did at jmc. As for how many take up the various options that the CC manage to negotiate, well it depends a lot on the age demograph within MYT. I am not familiar with it, but at jmc there weren't that many pilots in the 'early retirement bracket', therefore there weren't a great deal of takers. Again, it also depends on what package can be negotiated and how attractive it is, but I still think that if it's anything like the jmc one and if there are a few more in the bracket to find it attractive, then compulsory redundancies may be avoided. I am sure more will leave of their own accord to pastures new before the date arrives; that to me will be the biggest factor in avoiding compulsory redundancies.

The whole issue is not pleasant though and even though I left jmc before being pushed I still felt like I had been made redundant.........

I wish you all well.

PP

Haven't been on PPrune for a couple of years, but being down-route when we got the news, and having access to free web access, I thought there may be more news here than on Arena.

1. Very dissappointed that the company didn't even fax the official company announcement to the hotel. Nothing was apparantly afoot when we left the UK, and had it not been for 'phone contact with guys back at base,we would still be in ignorance (perhaps not a bad thing as it's taken the shine right off this trip).

2. Very heartened that we are highly thought of in the industry at large:- I just hope this translates to easy moves to pastures new for those affected.

Insh'alllah this will be the end of the bad news and morale will climb again.

Good luck to all my colleagues, and whatever the future holds, it has always been a pleasure working with you.

Well atleast the pilots at Skyservice arent being affected......Im sure they are more than happy to fly for MyTravel while pilots are being made redundant.
;)

Hope the company sticks to Seniority List/Last in first out, especially as it is the B757 guys that are longest serving in the company. That didn't happen at Dan Air, despite a written agreement with the company. Hopefully, the management is a cut above the BA managers who took over Dan. Regretably Balpa didn't shine, and it didn't help that 3500 of their BA members looked the other way while the deal was done.

I hope that the MT management get on the blower to the FCA,TCUK,Britannia etc etc management and find the guys some jobs.

We at TCUK will need more pilots around March next year.... seems a perfect fit to me. As long as it is only FO's who join... as I don't think direct entry commands will be on the menu somehow.

Im away on a trip at the moment so have not seen anything offical apart from on Arena.. Have been told that they are looking to get rid of 160 cabin crew at Manchester this does not include sesonal... this is awful news. im gutted... :-(

MYTDC10

Where did you hear they are planning to make 160 Cabin Crew redundant from MAN?

Is this from an official source or speculation?

Flightrider,

Where did you hear that the DC10 was going to Air Scandic? I've heard references to this rumour over the past few days but haven't heard it from any reliable or official source. Are you just reporting the rumour or have you got any further info to support it (from Air Scandic for example)? MYT management are simply saying that it's going to be 'parked' from Nov 1st. Not sure what they're going to do with the long haul program that the DC10 was going to be doing this winter - I believe it was expected to be very busy like last year while the rest of the fleet is doing the Hajj. I've been told a Skyservice A330-300 is coming over again and I certainly hope it will be crewed by MYT pilots.

Have now heard this from two reliable sources (albeit neither of them directly at Air Scandic). The plan for the DC10 apparently includes operating CT2's South Africa flying this winter given that the AV8 operation will no longer exist. Scandic's A300s are going in October as now finally due for the D Check.

MyTravel DC10 flying was originally planned to be mostly Montego Bay and one Sanford per week. Also haven't heard what the MYT reaction to the arrival of bmi on MAN-Las Vegas is going to be - apparently this was one of the few decent money-earners last winter.

Well, that's Leeds Bradford's MYT base finally up the Swannee (have I spelt that right), and Stansted as well I believe. SkyService doing the job at the moment but come November 1st that's it. I expect we'll see a mix of Spanish charter airlines and MyTravel 'w' sectors thru' the affected airports this winter.

Best of British luck to all pilots, cabin crew, engineers, support staff and all else affected. Hopefully we'll see you back within a year or two, if not summer 2005. All the best :ok: :ok:

If it's true that the DC10 goes to Air Scandic our Flight Engineers may be OK as they're a pretty rare bunch nowadays. But presumably the pilots won't get a look in if Scandic are getting rid of their Airbuses at the same time. Are they planning on just training their A300 guys onto the DC10? Bet GECAT didn't think anyone else would be buying DC10 courses from them - they've probably thrown all the course material away (what material they had in the first place that is!)

I was chatting to a friend this morning who said that the Chief Pilot stated exactly 2 months ago that he knew nothing about the fleet reductions and hinted towards the fact that it may happen in USA or Scandinavia.!!! Amazing that the CP know nothing about this ....

.... then of course the Fleet Manager Airbus resigned a few weeks ago, maybe a man who couldn't face tell the troops any more lies and b******t .

And then the announcement comes with exeactly 3 months to go to the reduction ... the same time a pilots notice!!!

Oh how to make your workforce feel good.

I hope the workforce that are concerned find better jobs and the management end up in McDonalds (fast food not avaition) frying chips, where there attitudes will not hurt folk.

Good Luck to all concerned.

JS

JS

Don't really see your point. The company have said no redundancy notices will be served before 1st November. As you say most pilots will be on 3 months notice, which will commence on the day notice is served. That's at least 6 months from the announcement to the first pilot leaving, or perhaps you'd rather the company had kept quiet and just served redundancy notices on 31st Oct.

Why do you find it so odd the CP new nothing? These decisions are made at high level, it's generally down to chief pilots and fleet managers to manage to fall-out. Personally I think the announcement has been handled fairly well by the company, considering how bad it is. As a plc the company are bound by certain laws when it comes to making such announcemnts. It's a just a shame that certain individuals feel they have some God-given right to be told before anybody else in the company!

JS

I think you will also find that a company can run the 90 day negotiation period alongside the 90 day notice period. From that perspective at least they didn't choose to do that.

PP

Don't tell MYT that the two periods can run concurrently! Having worked for them for a few years and witnessed the incompetence on a daily basis it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they didn't know that.

Tell you what I think.....

There will be NO compulsary redundancies. These things will work out. A sh1t load of people will leave voluntarily to BA and VS etc, when it comes down to it, I would not be surprised if TC and FCA etc "borrowed" some for next summer to help out and by the end of that period, the redundancies will be mitigated. Some may join TC permanently I hope. At least it would stop training going on into August next year!

I hope my gut feeling is correct.

Shares now 6p... overvalued perhaps in the event of a debt for equity swap. And that WILL happen soon I promise. It is either that or the banks will pull out full stop, they need to protect their money and take control fully.

Big Tudor & PP,
Ref the notice period, my point is;

If you were told that your fleet was being dispanded and there were job cuts, wouldn't start looking for other work. By MyT only announcing the reduction with 3 months left they know that the pilots can't resign earlier and the company is left with no pilots to fly their planes .... but then again, isn't that already happening!!

Wheelbarrow.

My thought ... the banks will continue to make what they can by slowly selling anything of value till the company slowly disappears into the history books. As it is they take 15% of all sold assets as a "sweetner" for not pulling the plug earlier.
Why didn't they close it down earlier , maybe because they are underwriting the leases on MyT overpriced aircraft, that were signed by MyT managers, some of who were on the board of the lease companies. And they also know that no-one else wants 330's with downstairs toilets!!

As for the Golden Nugget 'MyTravellite' in BHX, now up against BmiBaby, I see they are going back to the routes they pulled out of before cos they couldn't make money on them... who is making the decsions, maybe they change as often as the company financial directors!!! So how long will they MyT continue to undercharge MyL for the aircraft so it can be seen to be making good?

IMHO ... of course.

As I said before, good luck to those concerned and will the last person please switch out the lights ... if they havn't been cut off for non-payment!

Time will tell, but midnight fast approaches!

JS

I understand know. Sorry, having a thick day. The prospect of being made redundant doesn't make for rational thought sometimes! :{
I guess, as a business decision, it is fairly sound though. No point planning aircraft to fly until end of summer if there ain't nobody to fly 'em. Having said that, I would imagine the company would avoid forcing guys to work their 3 months if they had a firm job to go to. Would be seen as being fairly petty.

Nor sure I agree with the doom and gloom about the future. It is well documented that there is an over capacity in the UK IT charter market. MYT have done their bit to remove some of that over-capacity and have, in the process, slimmed the business down to meet the reaslitic booking levels. As more and more people choose to make their own holiday plans, perhaps the pain that MYT is currently going through will also have to be experienced by other IT package suppliers. Perhaps there is a glimmer of hope on the horizon for MYT after all. (there is no icon for praying but you get my drift)

What routes are those then?

The only route that I can imagine you’re misguidedly talking about is BHX-TFS, which they only offer during winters (hence they ‘pulled out’ for S04). Other than that one route, I think you’re talking out of your bottom: they have recently launched ACE, LPA and IBZ, but have never had them before. And besides which, the TFS, ACE and LPA routes are now not actually being operated as VZ flights: just a case of Lite sensibly selling seats on MYT flights.

As for MyTravel Airways undercharging Lite for the aircraft, I very much doubt you have seen the figures.

JS

Many thanks for adding to the woes of those who are about to loose their jobs! I have little comment to make regarding your assertions other than think before you post!

Right now there are a lot of unhappy folks who have worked very hard through some tough times and may now be out of work. So words of support are in order not more forecasts of doom and gloom. You may think your being a realist and that’s fair enough but do us all a favour keep your thoughts to yourself for the time being and think about the impact this is having on those affected who will be reading everything being posted looking some good news, as there is not much of that a little support would be nice.

Show a little feeling and keep the speculation to yourself! As to the fleet manager, he was head hunted by another company! A good guy who has been offered a great opportunity which he would have been a fool to pass on even if times were different, not a rat leaving a sinking ship as you suggest. The CP probably knew nothing and if he did he would have been required to act appropriately which means keep his mouth shut until the plans we finalised it’s called being professional!

This was always going to happen the only surprise is it did not happen sooner but that I guess has been down to leasing contracts etc.
:hmm:

Pilot Pete

I don't think the company will be allowed to run the notice period in conjuntion with the 90 days notice period.

The 90 day notice period is a legal requirement whereby the company must enter into negotiations and consultations with employee representatives to ascertain which pilots are to be made redundant.

At this stage the company will not have served notice on anyone, and it is certainly not for them to decide alone as to who will go. It is for the CC to decide if selection is to be based on LIFO (costly in terms of retraining) or whether to use an alternative selection method. My guess is, it will have to go to ballot.

Good luck everyone.

Mr President,

Routes .... BHX - BFS/AMS/GVA in the case of BFS only pulled out to concentrate on more 'productive' DUB .... the route that which never was!!!

As for the VZ prices, well that came from the horses mouth, Mr Jeans who said his cost base even undercut FR's!!!

The new MyL Canary routes on MyT aircraft ... make me laugh, it used to be called "Seat Only" till a few days ago, just a name change.

Spy

You may not like what's being said, then don't read the Pprune and buy yourself a set of ear defenders and blackout sun glasses. My statement is not 'doom and gloom' just an educated statement that was in direct opposition to a previous 'fantasy' statement. If you only want one side of a story maybe you should go into management or the Labour Gov't.


I completely agree with BR about the over capacity in the charter market. With the growth of the low cost airlines and the vailability of the internet you can go cheaper (although not always), on the day you want (not just on Tues or Sat), for the duration you want (not 7, 10 or 14 days) and stay in the hotel or resort you want. This I'm sure is recognised by the financeiers (sp?) and I must, unfortunately, stand by my previous forecast.
I would love to be force to eat my words!

Again IMHO

BIG TUDOR

I couldnt agree with you more regards to the over capacity in the uk IT market.

What Mytravel are doing now is a very brave and in deed well needed decision in order to return mytravel to proffitabillity again.
What we are doing now, you will probably see the other major uk ops doing quite soon too.

As someone explained to me, take a 767-300 which holds 326pax.
the price that had been set for the holidays was x amount, alot of tour ops had difficulty in seeling these at those prices, prices come down to which you end up making very little or a loss.

when i looked in apr for the loads in jul/aug...alot of myt flights were 1/2 booked up allready....so take the 767 (326pax), thats 166 seats sold at a decent price....the other 166 seats sold at a lower price when it was announced that we had trouble selling at a decent price, due to competition from other ops.

by slimming the fleet down to a more comfortable size A320/321.
(A330 longhaul)....you can see that the bulk of the plane load would have been sold at a respectable price instead of having to slash prices to compete with the others and to try and get something for the seats rather than nothing.

As an employee of the company...i feel confident in what they are doing and hopefully...this will be the last leg of the bad news.

....its not "DOOM AND GLOOM".... its business and something that is needed to protect the mytravel group... its a way forward for the company and as i say....dont be suprised to find TCX/FCA/BY doing something similar in the near future.

Hope all is well and if i am wrong in what i have said...then shoot me and let me know...which you probably will....but just expressing my comments on what is an open forum.
I do share my sympathy with those that maybe out of a job...but i have been there too (twice in fact) so i can appreciate how unsettling it can be.

Many thx

TJ747

Good luck to the CC they are in a no win situation. Obviously LIFO should apply but I wonder how junior 330/320 Capts/Fo's would vote if given the chance with so many senior pilots on the Boeing/10 fleet.

They have a tough job ahead best of luck. Airtours/My travel have always been renowned for getting their pound of flesh from their crews just hope they treat those leaving with the respect they deserve.

fax

JS

Actually I did not see much educated opinion in your statements! Just speculation and most of it ill informed. I frankly don't give a dam what you have to say personally, I was to appealing to your humanity and asking you to spare a thought for some of my work mates who are suffering. Clearly you are more interested making a point for your own reasons than considering the feelings of others.

To those who may give your opinions the benefit of some knowledge, don't! JS is just giving his opinion and his assertions regarding the fleet manager and CP were wrong!

Sadly this site has more than it's fair share of those who love to add fuel to any fire and seem to delight in others misfortune!

:mad:

John Smith. I think that you are wrong when you assert that MYT did not have good lease deals on their aircraft. A friend of mine is a lawyer who specialises in aircraft leasing deals. He reckons that MYT(Airtours) were very canny and shrewd negotiators. That was never their problem. The problem was that they were the first large company to suffer the effects of overcapacity. Overcapacity is always a voluntary act on the part of managemnet, usually because they have dreams of domination. That dream has been well and truly shattered as it always will, but there is probably a good core business that will survive.

John Smith

What’s your point regarding Lite dropping BFS/AMS/GVA/DUB? Your initial lying post was that Lite “are going back to the routes they pulled out of before cos they couldn't make money on them”. I challenge you to name which routes Lite are going back to that they pulled out of. If you can’t name them, it wouldn’t hurt to admit you’re wrong.
And a change so that the seats are sold on MyTravelLite.com, which is infinitely more useable than MyTravel.com. And a change that means one-way and destination-originating trips can now be booked. I’m glad you find it amusing that the Group is experimenting with alternative distribution methods for achieving the highest possible yields from its seat-only product. I find it quite reassuring.

WHEELBARROW

Sorry to burst your bubble, and I don't mean this in a nasty way.

If the company has told you, and it doesn't matter which medium they use, that redundancies are required then they have served notice.
Ask any of the ex BA engineers at MAN who went through this process two years ago.

Good luck all. :sad:

Turin

Don't worry about bursting my bubble - just take a look at the current employment legislation - you can find out what you need to know on the Acas website,

If you're MYT - goodluck anyway.

This will be my last comment on this subject because of the attitude of certain posters.

Mr President.

I'm not lying and don't like to be accused as such. The routes in question are the BHX - BFS/AMS/GVA ... announed on company web site 2 days ago on the 27th. Told by a friend and reconfirmed, maybe they are just finalising the timings before going to press.!!!

I do believe you always were able to book one way, and destination orientated flights on seat only.

Your attitude stinks.

Colgate

Intially the buy and sell back to lease company does generate a cash profit. But this was very quickly overturned by the lease back rates. They are not canny, actually very poor.

Spy

If you don't give a damn about what I say why are you on this forum. And why do you just view the problem through rose tinted specticles,.. maybe your testicles are in the way!!
I notice from a few of you previous posts that you make a few accusations that are controversal about other comapnys. 18th July - that you consider its only a matter of time before eJ or FR have an accident thro fatigue. I think you'll find that your latest FTL is petty similar to eJ. Maybe you should talk to your BHX colleagues about fatigue. Accidents, maybe you should check out your own company - Puerto, EMA, FUN!
Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You have your opinion and I have mine, they may be different but they are opinions and this is an open forum.

Good night

JS

John Smith

If MyTravelLite re-launches BHX -BFS/AMS/GVA (excepting the possibility of them selling seats on MYT flights to GVA), I’ll gladly apologise for suggesting you’re lying. I’m sorry if you think my attitude stinks but, at the end of the day, you are peddling these untruths as facts at a time when all of us at MyTravel need to be concentrating on more important matters than someone’s fantasy about dropped Lite routes being re-launched. Maybe in six months, when your last-gasp theory of Lite “just finalising the timings before going to press” is shown to be completely untrue, you’ll be the one gracious enough to apologise.

As for “always being able to book one-way and destination-orientated flights on seat only”, I posted a link to the lovely MyTravel seat-only website in my reply: maybe you should have actually tried it to see.

I understand that as part of the cost cutting measures, as of next summer, the Airtours B767 based in GLA will be the same aircraft but operated by Excel on behalf of the tour operation.

Why can they do it any better than MyTravel?

MYT
 

I think the Germans have a word for all this... schadenfreude.
LIFO did not work when BA bought Dan Air, the fall out and ill feeling still being felt over ten years later. Senior skippers with 20 years seniority were let go and the junior f/o's in gatwick on the right fleet kept on. This all negotiated with balpa of course.
The airline that took them over employed the sort of mainline Captain who, on retirement, chose to register for unemployment benefit aged 55, job seeker B747, drawing the dole to supplement his pension and rather proudly announced so in the balpa log magazine. Some took their lives, unable to cope with the loss of a second 'family.' It is a harsh business and twas ever so. Every man for himself still seems to work for the directors. Be nimble and good luck.

koi.

JS

You sound so familiar!? I think most who have posted here now have the measure of you. As for rose tinted glasses clearly you have not really got the point. You have made incorrect statements regarding two managers within MYT and have not had the good grace to accept that. You have been asked to keep the speculation on the future of the company to yourself on this thread in the interests of common decency and respect for those who are affected. We all have our opinions on what will happen next but you have no facts and nor do I, so who are you helping? And what are you trying to achieve?

The reason I don't give a dam about what you have to say is you like so many have no facts, your just stirring up the muck for your own reasons. If you had any facts you would not be posting them here as you would be working for one of the banks that now run MYT. The Banks are the only ones who have any idea what will happen next and even that may not be true at the moment! Some of what you have said may in time come to pass, it may not nothing is certain! I again ask you and others just to show a little consideration for those who are affected at this time and keep your speculation to yourself.

Not that it has anything to do with this thread but as you have raised the issue regarding FTL! I am very pleased if Ryan Air and EJ have adopted a better approach to FTL, shame they did not do it sooner. However, I think you will find our agreement offers more protection than Cap 371, though still not enough for BHX I would agree. The point is the whole low cost market is pushing the limits on FTL and it is only a matter of time before we have a fatigue related incident! The market is changing and CAP371 does not cater for the low cost model. I think most of us who have been involved in this end of the market understand the problems. Now perhaps we can stay on the subject if that’s ok with you, I am more than happy to continue an exchange on FTL on another thread if you want.

The incidents you allude to had nothing to do with FTL, I suggest you to read the accident reports for a full explanation they could happen in any airline at any time but I am sure you know that! If you want to use personal remarks to support your arguments see you on jet blast otherwise grow up!
;)

KOI,

I hope LIFO is employed in MYT otherwise a seniority list is worthless. BALPA has made mistakes over the years but has learnt from it. Some guys will take the shafting BA administered to them in conjunction with BALPA to the grave with them and that is understandable. BALPA suffered considerably as a consequence of the Dan Air fiasco.

You seem conveniently to omit the attempt by Virgin management to axe 747 pilots irrespective of seniority post 9/11. BALPA isn't perfect but without it you are at the mercy of management who would make cutbacks in the cheapest fashion possible.

Koi has a point though; LIFO is not necessarily the method MYT are legally obliged to use, which is why they are required to give employees the 90 days notice period. The ball has been legitimately thrown into your employee representatives court!

Your CC have an extremely unpleasant task ahead of them and hopefully their negotiating skills will reduce the level of compulsory redundancies.

Good luck everyone.

Does anyone know what started this MyTravel thing off, i mean when it was Airtours everything was plain sailing, things have got worst over the past two years.
I remember the days when it was a very promosing Airtours fleet in the early 90s which had MD83s,757 and A320s, then 10 or so years later, what went wrong.

Everyone is quite correct to quote that there is overcapicity within the UK charter industry. I agree. Whilst taxying out from terminal 2 at MAN yesterday I coudnt help commenting that MYT's problems could only have been made much worse by the numerous TF registered B747's/B767's/B757's and B737's busy at work. These aircraft return year after year, and are employed by the same companies. Sorry. But its not right. Why does the UK Gov never look after its own?

Best of luck to those affected.

Sad times for the UK industry.
:(

Couldn't agree more, with the high number of TF reg A/C at MAN which seem to be mostly crewed by American guys especially the 757's, then there's the Finnair 757 operating for the summer, the Air Malta 320's doing european charter work and of course the skyservice 320's operating at LBA etc, I assume all this is allowed on a summer season capacity basis??

Would all the 'spotters' with their "how to run an airline and which routes to serve with shich type of jet" please bog off to their fantasy world forum!

Is it just me or are these forums becoming overrun with 'anoraks' who just think they're the bees knees because they can stick their twopenneth worth into a pilots forum? Every time there is a thread about something to do with an airline and it is specific about pilots and their careers, you get goofy with his binoculars, airband radio and sandwich box putting his ideas about what the airline should do with its fleet and which routes are going to be winners! :rolleyes:

This thread is about the redundancies at MYT and the effects on the aircrew. It's not about which routes they should have flown with their Wonderbuses. :* This is a professional pilots forum and important threads like this one seem do just end up about spotters fantasy! :yuk:

Could the mods please rein in these anoraks and give us back the forums without the nerdy stuff? :mad: Please!