Flybe-V2
I'm not so sure. The criteria about independence from IAG was established (and is in the Commitments) for the initial provision of these slots to a qualified entrant seeking to fly the nominated routes (ABZ, EDI etc). Given the EU decision to grandfather the lease of the slots to Flybe 2 (which is a strange concept but what it did) then the only restrictions are those now in the Slot Release Agreement between Flybe 2 and British Airways.
The main risk for BA is, I guess, that an action like that could be challenged and that it doesn't stop the whole remedy slot merry-go-round starting again. If BA can demonstrate that it provided X pairs of slots to airline Y under the remedies, it is no longer obliged to provide slots to others to fly LHR-ABZ, LHR-EDI etc. If BA was somehow using the slots itself once more, that would become more difficult and it might only be a temporary solution until the next idiot comes along. At least that's my reading of it.
The main risk for BA is, I guess, that an action like that could be challenged and that it doesn't stop the whole remedy slot merry-go-round starting again. If BA can demonstrate that it provided X pairs of slots to airline Y under the remedies, it is no longer obliged to provide slots to others to fly LHR-ABZ, LHR-EDI etc. If BA was somehow using the slots itself once more, that would become more difficult and it might only be a temporary solution until the next idiot comes along. At least that's my reading of it.
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It’s not really a repeat of BMI though. It’s basically buying the assets of a failed carrier. And even then the market has changed. LH failed with Lufthansa Italia but is back trying to buy ITA.
Flybe v2 had limited cash resources... so anybody owed money by Flybe v1 was maybe unlikely to try pursuing v2 for v1. Had the claim succeeded, every creditor of v1 would then make a claim against v2... followed by v2 immediately collapsing and creditors seeing just a few pennies in the pound for any debts.
AF-KL and LH are rather larger with much deeper pockets, along with the implicit Govt backing of their respective Governments.
If AF-KL or LH were to buy Flybe v2 out of adminstration... I wonder if any large Flybe v1 creditors might want to have another go at getting their money back ? I'm sure there's a legal argument to be made...find a clever KC, and see what can be achieved...
AF-KL and LH are rather larger with much deeper pockets, along with the implicit Govt backing of their respective Governments.
If AF-KL or LH were to buy Flybe v2 out of adminstration... I wonder if any large Flybe v1 creditors might want to have another go at getting their money back ? I'm sure there's a legal argument to be made...find a clever KC, and see what can be achieved...
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The old company in liquidation is now called FBE Realisations Ltd and those with a claim need to file it against that.
The new Flybe 2.0 was originally called Thyme OpCo before renaming themselves after the old Flybe became FBE.
Legally, you wouldn't get very far with any claim you had for the old company against the new one.
It's not overly different to football clubs going bust and the company registered at companies house changes names whilst the name of the club continues.
The new Flybe 2.0 was originally called Thyme OpCo before renaming themselves after the old Flybe became FBE.
Legally, you wouldn't get very far with any claim you had for the old company against the new one.
It's not overly different to football clubs going bust and the company registered at companies house changes names whilst the name of the club continues.
The argument for debt repayment would centre around the LHR slots, whether v2 paid fair value for v1 assets (ie LHR slots), and whether paying nil or peppercorn establishes any continuity, especially if there has been a historic actively traded market to value the assets. I'm still wondering if v2 petitiong the CAA for v1's LHR slots and the CAA granting v1's slots to v2 increases the legal risk of v2 potentially incurring v1's obligations
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 5th Feb 2023 at 17:35.
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Seems a murky precedent if a new company is then determined to be liable for the debts of different legal entities.
(Even if the new company has similar directors as the old one!)
(Even if the new company has similar directors as the old one!)
I can't think for one minute that AF or LH have any notion of running UK domestic flights. This is about slots - and was the reason for Virgin's interest in Flybe 1 at LHR. Get hold of these remedy slots - AF/KL can use them to backfill on their short-haul services and free up their own unrestricted slots to provide more expansion at LHR.
Lufthansa is in the running to acquire ITA which, as the Daily Telegraph article correctly pointed out, now has no LHR slots. A certain Abu Dhabi-based airline has leased out its spare LHR slots to anyone but ITA this year, so ITA has plans to fly to LHR but no slots whatsoever. A minor technical snag.
Lufthansa is in the running to acquire ITA which, as the Daily Telegraph article correctly pointed out, now has no LHR slots. A certain Abu Dhabi-based airline has leased out its spare LHR slots to anyone but ITA this year, so ITA has plans to fly to LHR but no slots whatsoever. A minor technical snag.
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Davidjohnson6 - sorry I understand your point now! That if Flybe 2.0 was able to gain a significant asset of another legal entity for nothing then surely people with a claim could be used to pursue debts against it?
Cavokblues - yes, you got it. Have a Google about "phoenixing" of an old bankrupt company.
I'm wondering if v1 had the right to sell the LHR slots, or what legal hoops v2 had to jump through to petition the CAA to deem v2 eligible for the LHR slots without good consideration. A large corporate law firm and a senior barrister somewhere will be licking their lips at a court case as a way to make a name for themselves, along with possible fees. The insolvency practitioner of v1 may start sh*tting their pants if this goes to court :-)
AF-KL or LH will presumably want to find out who the major creditors of v1 are, their capacity to litigate, and whether they would benefit financially from litigation.
Flybe v1 had debts of around £650 million in 2020
I'm wondering if v1 had the right to sell the LHR slots, or what legal hoops v2 had to jump through to petition the CAA to deem v2 eligible for the LHR slots without good consideration. A large corporate law firm and a senior barrister somewhere will be licking their lips at a court case as a way to make a name for themselves, along with possible fees. The insolvency practitioner of v1 may start sh*tting their pants if this goes to court :-)
AF-KL or LH will presumably want to find out who the major creditors of v1 are, their capacity to litigate, and whether they would benefit financially from litigation.
Flybe v1 had debts of around £650 million in 2020
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 5th Feb 2023 at 18:32.
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It's a very interesting question!
I guess if the slots were essentially gifted to the new company by the EU, or whoever, then it would prove difficult for old claimants of Flybe 1.0 to pursue anything from Flybe 2.0
I guess if the slots were essentially gifted to the new company by the EU, or whoever, then it would prove difficult for old claimants of Flybe 1.0 to pursue anything from Flybe 2.0
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FLYBE ADMINISTRATORS SEEK TEMPORARY CAA OPERATING LICENCE
Another rebirth of Flybe may be a possibility following an application by administrators for a temporary operating licence after the regional carrier collapsed last month for the second time in three years.
Will Flybe rise again for a third time?
In a highly unusual move, the failed carrier’s administrators Interpath Advisory is seeking the permit from the CAA, which will allow it to engage with the authority and others to restructure the business.
A source close to the administration said gaining the licence would allow administrators to explore a sale. “We have a short window in which we can try to get some sort of sale agreed for the business and assets,” they added.
Among those assets are understood to be seven pairs of slots at Heathrow airport and five at Amsterdam’s Schiphol, with the Heathrow slots potentially worth hundreds of millions of pounds.
They were awarded to Flybe by regulators as “remedy slots” to ensure competition in 2012 after British Airways purchased rival regional carrier British Midland. “We very much do see the slots as part of the asset base of the company,” said the source.
Interpath is still in discussions with potential buyers with the process understood to be fast-moving. It is thought to be the first time the CAA has been asked to grant a temporary licence, which gives Flybe 12 months to restructure.
The licence application was made on 28 January, the day the carrier collapsed. A CAA spokesperson said: "Flybe’s administrators have applied for a temporary operator’s licence. If approved, it would allow the administrators to start the process of restructuring the business.
“The UK Civil Aviation Authority has not yet made a decision on whether to grant a temporary licence. Flybe’s licence currently remains suspended in accordance with the undertakings given by the administrators."
Administrators will have to meet a number of financial criteria in order to be accepted but will not need to disclose their intentions for the Flybe brand. The granting of the licence does not mean Flybe can begin flying again.
Flybe lasted less than a year following its rebirth in April 2022 after the original brand and business ceased flying in March 2020 and was sold to Thyme Opco, a firm controlled by Cyrus Capital.
Its collapse left 75,000 forward bookings and 321 staff facing unemployment. The timing of the Flybe relaunch, as the UK emerged from the pandemic, did not help its prospects, nor did the fact that rivals had already filled many of the routes vacated by Flybe’s original collapse.
Another rebirth of Flybe may be a possibility following an application by administrators for a temporary operating licence after the regional carrier collapsed last month for the second time in three years.
Will Flybe rise again for a third time?
In a highly unusual move, the failed carrier’s administrators Interpath Advisory is seeking the permit from the CAA, which will allow it to engage with the authority and others to restructure the business.
A source close to the administration said gaining the licence would allow administrators to explore a sale. “We have a short window in which we can try to get some sort of sale agreed for the business and assets,” they added.
Among those assets are understood to be seven pairs of slots at Heathrow airport and five at Amsterdam’s Schiphol, with the Heathrow slots potentially worth hundreds of millions of pounds.
They were awarded to Flybe by regulators as “remedy slots” to ensure competition in 2012 after British Airways purchased rival regional carrier British Midland. “We very much do see the slots as part of the asset base of the company,” said the source.
Interpath is still in discussions with potential buyers with the process understood to be fast-moving. It is thought to be the first time the CAA has been asked to grant a temporary licence, which gives Flybe 12 months to restructure.
The licence application was made on 28 January, the day the carrier collapsed. A CAA spokesperson said: "Flybe’s administrators have applied for a temporary operator’s licence. If approved, it would allow the administrators to start the process of restructuring the business.
“The UK Civil Aviation Authority has not yet made a decision on whether to grant a temporary licence. Flybe’s licence currently remains suspended in accordance with the undertakings given by the administrators."
Administrators will have to meet a number of financial criteria in order to be accepted but will not need to disclose their intentions for the Flybe brand. The granting of the licence does not mean Flybe can begin flying again.
Flybe lasted less than a year following its rebirth in April 2022 after the original brand and business ceased flying in March 2020 and was sold to Thyme Opco, a firm controlled by Cyrus Capital.
Its collapse left 75,000 forward bookings and 321 staff facing unemployment. The timing of the Flybe relaunch, as the UK emerged from the pandemic, did not help its prospects, nor did the fact that rivals had already filled many of the routes vacated by Flybe’s original collapse.
"Will Flybe rise again for a third time?"
Jeez - worse than Hammer House of Horror - more reruns than "Rocky"
Jeez - worse than Hammer House of Horror - more reruns than "Rocky"
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Flybe buyout
It would be awesome to see someone buy them out and do what should have been done from get go.
Loved handling them at NCL, Great crews and much better aircraft to handle than a goddamn ATR.
Would love to see the AF/KLM group buy them.
Cityhopper Lite or Hoppicus? Anything better to drop the now black Flybe branding.
Loved handling them at NCL, Great crews and much better aircraft to handle than a goddamn ATR.
Would love to see the AF/KLM group buy them.
Cityhopper Lite or Hoppicus? Anything better to drop the now black Flybe branding.
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Loganair have requested the Flybe LHR slots.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...eathrow-slots/
(I couldn't find the Loganair thread!?)
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...eathrow-slots/
(I couldn't find the Loganair thread!?)
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Just been reading the EU decision to grandfather the slots in 2020 - https://ec.europa.eu/competition/mer...447_7043_3.pdf
From reading that I don't think there is any danger of Flybe being resurrected by the request for a temporary OL.
The CAA did something similar for Flybe 1.0 during their administration, albeit because of Covid.
Essentially, the EU concludes Flybe was awarded the slots but if they cease being an airline the slots are to return to the slot pool or IAG.
I guess you're not legally an airline without an OL so this application for an OL is just the administrators trying to release some value from the slots?
From reading that I don't think there is any danger of Flybe being resurrected by the request for a temporary OL.
The CAA did something similar for Flybe 1.0 during their administration, albeit because of Covid.
Essentially, the EU concludes Flybe was awarded the slots but if they cease being an airline the slots are to return to the slot pool or IAG.
I guess you're not legally an airline without an OL so this application for an OL is just the administrators trying to release some value from the slots?
Loganair have requested the Flybe LHR slots.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...eathrow-slots/
(I couldn't find the Loganair thread!?)
https://www.routesonline.com/news/29...eathrow-slots/
(I couldn't find the Loganair thread!?)
That's hilarious. Remedy slots which where created as a remedy to BA's monopoly and yet Loganair want to use them on the Derry to London service which is a BA codeshare.
Well no, the point was to create competition in market whereas this would be a net new market. Hardly adding to a BA monopoly on point to point.