France to ban internal short haul?
Thread Starter
France to ban internal short haul?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56716708French lawmakers have moved to ban short-haul internal flights where train alternatives exist, in a bid to reduce carbon emissions.
Over the weekend, lawmakers voted in favour of a bill to end routes where the same journey could be made by train in under two-and-a-half hours.
Connecting flights will not be affected, however. The planned measures will face a further vote in the Senate before becoming law. Airlines around the world have been severely impacted by the coronavirus pandemic, with website Flightradar24 reporting that the number of flights last year were down almost 42% from 2019. The measures could affect travel between Paris and cities including Nantes, Lyon and Bordeaux.
But the French government had faced calls to introduce for even stricter rules on domestic flights. France's Citizens' Convention on Climate, which was created by President Emmanuel Macron in 2019 and included 150 members of the public, had proposed scrapping plane journeys where train journeys of under four hours existed. Saturday's vote came days after the French government more than doubled its stake in Air France. The government had previously offered €7bn ($8.3bn, £6bn) in loans to help the airline weather the pandemic, although France's economy minister said at the time the funding was dependent on the airline scrapping some of its domestic flights.
This is not the first time similar measures have been introduced. Last year, Austrian Airlines replaced a flight route between the capital Vienna and the city of Salzburg with an increased train service, after receiving a government bailout with provisions to cut its carbon footprint.
Over the weekend, lawmakers voted in favour of a bill to end routes where the same journey could be made by train in under two-and-a-half hours.
Connecting flights will not be affected, however. The planned measures will face a further vote in the Senate before becoming law. Airlines around the world have been severely impacted by the coronavirus pandemic, with website Flightradar24 reporting that the number of flights last year were down almost 42% from 2019. The measures could affect travel between Paris and cities including Nantes, Lyon and Bordeaux.
But the French government had faced calls to introduce for even stricter rules on domestic flights. France's Citizens' Convention on Climate, which was created by President Emmanuel Macron in 2019 and included 150 members of the public, had proposed scrapping plane journeys where train journeys of under four hours existed. Saturday's vote came days after the French government more than doubled its stake in Air France. The government had previously offered €7bn ($8.3bn, £6bn) in loans to help the airline weather the pandemic, although France's economy minister said at the time the funding was dependent on the airline scrapping some of its domestic flights.
This is not the first time similar measures have been introduced. Last year, Austrian Airlines replaced a flight route between the capital Vienna and the city of Salzburg with an increased train service, after receiving a government bailout with provisions to cut its carbon footprint.
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Since connecting flights are not affected I don't really see what the fuss is all about. Are there really that many who travel point to point domestically by air to destinations which are 2.5 hours or less by train? I'm guessing but I would estimate it to be a relatively small minority.
Those flights can be useful if travelling from regional France to CDG to self-connect to a flight which doesn't interline with a suitable schedule (or doesn't interline at sensible prices) with Air France.
As an example, trying to combine Air France and Easyjet on the same ticket is not worth trying. However, 2 separate (modestly priced) tickets, and it's sometimes worthwhile. Connecting from somewhere like Montparnasse across Paris to CDG by metro / RER is a pain
As an example, trying to combine Air France and Easyjet on the same ticket is not worth trying. However, 2 separate (modestly priced) tickets, and it's sometimes worthwhile. Connecting from somewhere like Montparnasse across Paris to CDG by metro / RER is a pain
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How will connecting flights not be affected? Surely on a route like Nantes to CDG there will be p to p travellers sitting next to interlining. Just like Newcastle-LHR. If your business has a branch in Woking or your mum lives in Staines, it's useful. Is the proposal actually that you can't buy a p to p ticket but the flights will continue?
Thread Starter
can't see how they "not affect connecting flights" would work either - you're not going to run services just for connectors
I suspect its mis translated
2.5hours by TGV - that's about 400km including starting and stopping? So still flights to the deep South and SW
I suspect its mis translated
2.5hours by TGV - that's about 400km including starting and stopping? So still flights to the deep South and SW
Thread Starter
Here are some train times....... Major Routes from Paris
All train times given here are the shortest time on a direct route. You can continue on to other cities from all these destinations.
TGV Nord from Paris Gare du Nord. Connects to the north of France, to Lille, and Eurostar to London, Lille, and Brussels.
All train times given here are the shortest time on a direct route. You can continue on to other cities from all these destinations.
TGV Nord from Paris Gare du Nord. Connects to the north of France, to Lille, and Eurostar to London, Lille, and Brussels.
- Paris to Lille - 59 minutes
- Paris to Dunkerque - 1 hour 37 minutes
- Paris to Reims - 48 minutes
- Paris to Metz - 1 hour 27 minutes
- Paris to Nancy – 1 hour 31 minutes
- Paris to Strasbourg – 2 hours 18 minutes
- Paris to Lyon - 1hr 59 minutes
- Paris to Dijon - 1hr 37 minutes
- Paris to Grenoble - 3 hours 2 minutes
- Paris to Annecy - 3 hours 48 minutes
- Paris to Chambéry - 2 hours 50 minutes
- Paris to Marseille - 3 hours 25 minutes
- Paris to Avignon - 3 hours 36 minutes
- Paris to Aix-en-Provence - 3 hours 8 minutes
- Paris to Nice - 5 hours 38 minutes
- Paris to Nimes – 2 hours 59 minutes
Surely the guide should be comparative travel times for real journeys.
For example, Paris to Nice. How long does it take, on average (not fastest achievable by racing) to get from Notre-Dame to Place Masséna by public transport (1) by TGV, (2) by air, including travel time to station/airport, check-in, security, sitting around waiting to board, boarding, gate-to-gate time of train or plane, getting out of station/airport, travel time to destination? I don't know, but I'd bet on the TGV winning.
For example, Paris to Nice. How long does it take, on average (not fastest achievable by racing) to get from Notre-Dame to Place Masséna by public transport (1) by TGV, (2) by air, including travel time to station/airport, check-in, security, sitting around waiting to board, boarding, gate-to-gate time of train or plane, getting out of station/airport, travel time to destination? I don't know, but I'd bet on the TGV winning.
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You are of course correct but they can't calculate an infinite number of journey options. I presume the idea was you spend 45 minutes pre flight and 15 post landing absolute minimum when flying. 2.5 hours by TGV is about 400 kms so say an hour in the plane including taxying etc. So that's an absolute minimum of 2 hours by air and likely more like 2.5 hours - so just set the limit at 2.5 hours by train
You'll note the Citizens' Convention on Climate suggested 4 hours - which is what I'd think is closer to reality for any centre to centre trip.
If they do it I could see it spreading across Europe
You'll note the Citizens' Convention on Climate suggested 4 hours - which is what I'd think is closer to reality for any centre to centre trip.
If they do it I could see it spreading across Europe
Thread Starter
dlcmdrx
That's it - once you decide to start cutting emissions it starts to hurt I'm afraid. This is just the start - the "low hanging fruit"
That's it - once you decide to start cutting emissions it starts to hurt I'm afraid. This is just the start - the "low hanging fruit"
anothertyke
By "connecting flights" ("trajets en correspondance") they presumably mean multi-leg ones, as opposed to a flight that starts and ends within France.
By "connecting flights" ("trajets en correspondance") they presumably mean multi-leg ones, as opposed to a flight that starts and ends within France.
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Negan
Couldn’t agree more. There are real tangible solutions to climate change and a ton of low hanging fruit to make huge impact we never talk about.
Activists have completely damaged the narrative and polarized the debate so completely that politicians make stupid decisions.
Couldn’t agree more. There are real tangible solutions to climate change and a ton of low hanging fruit to make huge impact we never talk about.
Activists have completely damaged the narrative and polarized the debate so completely that politicians make stupid decisions.
Bindair Dundat
Also agreed. I like to think of myself as someone who takes the climate change thing reasonably seriously, but the topic has been adopted by the green peace contingent as a way of targeting the elite and the establishment, totally missing the point that most domestic travellers aren’t in that category.
Im also surprised that France of all countries is trying to enforce change by blanket ban rather than taxation or similar. It doesn’t seem very Libertarian?
Having said that, if it is indeed the case that only a select few passengers will be affected then this is perhaps just a symbolic change to make it look like the government is “tackling the issue” regardless of the fact it will barely scratch their emissions per capita.
Also agreed. I like to think of myself as someone who takes the climate change thing reasonably seriously, but the topic has been adopted by the green peace contingent as a way of targeting the elite and the establishment, totally missing the point that most domestic travellers aren’t in that category.
Im also surprised that France of all countries is trying to enforce change by blanket ban rather than taxation or similar. It doesn’t seem very Libertarian?
Having said that, if it is indeed the case that only a select few passengers will be affected then this is perhaps just a symbolic change to make it look like the government is “tackling the issue” regardless of the fact it will barely scratch their emissions per capita.