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Titan airways-2

Old 1st May 2022, 15:24
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6 View Post
UK Govt puts out a request for a wet leased aircraft with a stipulation it must have a Union jack design. UK airlines submit bids at a higher price than for a normal wet lease. UK Govt then chooses lowest of submitted bids. Officially no donation involved... Titan just recoups the cost of a repaint through a higher lease payment over next couple of years. Where is the case for PC Plod ?
Nail on head answer clear confirmation TAXPAYER paid !

As a qualified QS well aware of how things work with hidden in costs to customers !

We arenít on differing hymn pages on this however I think SWBKCB is a little unusual for them being naive !

As a customer HMG /Treasury are generally excellent at paying bills on time !
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Old 1st May 2022, 15:39
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There should be a record of the tender request available on OJEU somewhere through I am in Nantes for few days and only have my iPad with me .

I will seek to find it at some point . The one for the Falcons certainly is up there 👆

And again I am not one whom thinks UK shouldn’t have a state transport

BTW the owners of Titan are Tory donators coincidence maybe 🤔

True to say right now there aren’t too many that could meet the tender requirements anyway and that without sight of the specifications.

Public tenders are regularly written is such a way to be just short of naming a supplier and that’s without weighting; more than half of tenders have 50 to 75% quality weighting and the balance being simple price before the award(s)
Frameworks awards can be 6 of more contractors!

The 75% quality is largely subjective and as much as 25% of that can be sustainability (code bribes- what are you going to do for the community and by how much are you going to donate to good causes !)

I write this crap every working day on fire safety government awards !
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Old 1st May 2022, 17:01
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Originally Posted by irishlad06 View Post
think this might change - seen other confirmation that one staying at STN to operate for someone else with Titan crew from end of May
Do TUI have a base at STN? If so could it be them?

If it's not TUI then I'm probably 90% certain it'll be Jet2. Unless it's an exclusive tour operator and titan are providing the flying for them.
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Old 1st May 2022, 18:51
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Originally Posted by Rutan16 View Post
There should be a record of the tender request available on OJEU somewhere through I am in Nantes for few days and only have my iPad with me .

I will seek to find it at some point . The one for the Falcons certainly is up there 👆

And again I am not one whom thinks UK shouldnít have a state transport

BTW the owners of Titan are Tory donators coincidence maybe 🤔

True to say right now there arenít too many that could meet the tender requirements anyway and that without sight of the specifications.

Public tenders are regularly written is such a way to be just short of naming a supplier and thatís without weighting; more than half of tenders have 50 to 75% quality weighting and the balance being simple price before the award(s)
Frameworks awards can be 6 of more contractors!

The 75% quality is largely subjective and as much as 25% of that can be sustainability (code bribes- what are you going to do for the community and by how much are you going to donate to good causes !)

I write this crap every working day on fire safety government awards !
Never understood why people donít think the government should have VIP transport. You think they can just find a flight to a destination on normal passenger airlines? What about all the security concerns and costs for traveling on normal flights? You think we are some third world country and reputation doesnít matter when going to a country to do business? Germany have 3 x A350s and 2 x A321Ns on the way. We borrow one A321N from an airline. If anything itís embarrassing as it is.

The 2 F900s are also an odd choice. Itís a model from the 80s! Laughable that itís chosen to replace 80s era jets that were at least built here! Could they have not chosen A220s which at least have their wings built in the UK or a more modern Bombardier business jet from Canada?
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Old 1st May 2022, 19:23
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!

Originally Posted by Rivet Joint View Post
Never understood why people don’t think the government should have VIP transport. You think they can just find a flight to a destination on normal passenger airlines? What about all the security concerns and costs for traveling on normal flights? You think we are some third world country and reputation doesn’t matter when going to a country to do business? Germany have 3 x A350s and 2 x A321Ns on the way. We borrow one A321N from an airline. If anything it’s embarrassing as it is.

The 2 F900s are also an odd choice. It’s a model from the 80s! Laughable that it’s chosen to replace 80s era jets that were at least built here! Could they have not chosen A220s which at least have their wings built in the UK or a more modern Bombardier business jet from Canada?
Again your haven’t read what I wrote !
I fully support a state owned and operated fleet of VIP transport with secure comms and defensive capabilities to promote the UK .
I said I support the F900 purchase however yes would have been better to get Bombardier with NI build input !
I don’t support this arrangement emboldening a Tory donors bank account !!!!
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Old 1st May 2022, 19:53
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Originally Posted by Rivet Joint View Post
The 2 F900s are also an odd choice. Itís a model from the 80s! Laughable that itís chosen to replace 80s era jets that were at least built here! Could they have not chosen A220s which at least have their wings built in the UK or a more modern Bombardier business jet from Canada?
Most of the Government/Royal flights for at least the last 10 years have been out to tender on the UK charter market.

The Queen and Senior Royals have hardly been flying with the RAF for long time. They were chartering bizjets. The F900s arenít replacing the 146Öas that hasnít been the 146ís primary use for many years.

And the F900s arenít new either. Value for money. For groups of 10-15 people the brand-new A220 is hardly sensible, economical or value for money.
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Old 1st May 2022, 20:24
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Originally Posted by Rutan16 View Post
Again your havenít read what I wrote !
I fully support a state owned and operated fleet of VIP transport with secure comms and defensive capabilities to promote the UK .
I said I support the F900 purchase however yes would have been better to get Bombardier with NI build input !
I donít support this arrangement emboldening a Tory donors bank account !!!!
If itís a second hand aircraft does it matter where the wings were made? And also with the mission profileÖ maybe they just chose the most suitable aircraft. Northolt is a very constrained airfield, the Global is a good performer, but the F900 is smaller and has 3 engines. The extra engine can be critical in certain performance calculations.

What arrangement are you claiming supports someoneís bank account? You sound like a conspiracy theorist to me.

If youíre referring to the A231neo, I donít believe that the aircraft are owned by Titan. I understand they are owned, or at least leased from their actual owners by TCS Expeditions/Four Seasons. Titan are merely the ACMI operator of these aircraft.

The first, G-XATW, arrived painted all black in preparation to fly for its intended purpose at the height of the pandemic in late 2020. It sat idle for months, and then in early 2021 was repainted into the United Kingdom scheme.

The second was due to be G-OATW, but when it arrived in March 2021 it was painted all white and registered G-GBNI. And then placed into storage until the end of the year.

Itís pretty clear that both aircraft were surplus to requirements of their tour operator owners, who are not Titan, at the time of delivery. And that a deal was done with the UK to take over responsibility for the second aircraft. But that there was a mutually beneficial need to use the first aircraft in the interim period.

Itís actually far more likely that the original owner paid for the repaint, to facilitate the UK Governmentís time line, than risk having to pay lease/mortgage payments on 2 very expensive brand new A321neos in middle of a pandemic when their revenue earning potential was zero.

The cost of a repaint, weighed against several hundred thousand dollars in monthly lease/mortgage costs for each aircraft unable to earn revenue would be more than repaid immediately by finding alternative employment. So the original owner will have most likely been happy to cover the incidental cost of swapping paint jobs.

For reference; the latest published figures puts the monthly lease cost of an A321neo as US$240,000-360,000. Since both aircraft were delivered in all one colour paint, the respray plus decals will be significantly under half the monthly lease cost.



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Old 1st May 2022, 20:40
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Downwind - take your conspiracy ruining facts and logic elsewhere, sir!
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Old 1st May 2022, 21:09
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Originally Posted by Downwind_Left View Post
If itís a second hand aircraft does it matter where the wings were made? And also with the mission profileÖ maybe they just chose the most suitable aircraft. Northolt is a very constrained airfield, the Global is a good performer, but the F900 is smaller and has 3 engines. The extra engine can be critical in certain performance calculations.

What arrangement are you claiming supports someoneís bank account? You sound like a conspiracy theorist to me.

If youíre referring to the A231neo, I donít believe that the aircraft are owned by Titan. I understand they are owned, or at least leased from their actual owners by TCS Expeditions/Four Seasons. Titan are merely the ACMI operator of these aircraft.

The first, G-XATW, arrived painted all black in preparation to fly for its intended purpose at the height of the pandemic in late 2020. It sat idle for months, and then in early 2021 was repainted into the United Kingdom scheme.

The second was due to be G-OATW, but when it arrived in March 2021 it was painted all white and registered G-GBNI. And then placed into storage until the end of the year.

Itís pretty clear that both aircraft were surplus to requirements of their tour operator owners, who are not Titan, at the time of delivery. And that a deal was done with the UK to take over responsibility for the second aircraft. But that there was a mutually beneficial need to use the first aircraft in the interim period.

Itís actually far more likely that the original owner paid for the repaint, to facilitate the UK Governmentís time line, than risk having to pay lease/mortgage payments on 2 very expensive brand new A321neos in middle of a pandemic when their revenue earning potential was zero.

The cost of a repaint, weighed against several hundred thousand dollars in monthly lease/mortgage costs for each aircraft unable to earn revenue would be more than repaid immediately by finding alternative employment. So the original owner will have most likely been happy to cover the incidental cost of swapping paint jobs.

For reference; the latest published figures puts the monthly lease cost of an A321neo as US$240,000-360,000. Since both aircraft were delivered in all one colour paint, the respray plus decals will be significantly under half the monthly lease cost.
Still a cost and as for ownership the CAA STATE
TITAN AIRWAYS LTD
ENTERPRISE HOUSE, BASSINGBOURN ROAD
LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT
STANSTED
CM24
Zilch nine nada to do with the tour operator !
Again just for clarity I have No objections to a UK state transport fleet !
What really does concern me most of all is the lack of scrutiny from the media traditionally and loudly opposed to this and going back through several leaders of both main political parties !
Oh and as a pretty measure that appalling gold font !


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Old 1st May 2022, 21:53
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Dassault won the contest on swift delivery and cost. As for stickers being applied to an Airbus, then another and it costing the tax payer a fortune, reading this thread is hilarious! I remember a 757 arriving an airfield in England and having all kinds of very large decals added for a world tour by a Portuguese football team. They were then removed after that short term lease. Quick repaints and the rapid livery changes via decals are common place.
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Old 1st May 2022, 23:25
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Originally Posted by Buster the Bear View Post
Dassault won the contest on swift delivery and cost. As for stickers being applied to an Airbus, then another and it costing the tax payer a fortune, reading this thread is hilarious! I remember a 757 arriving an airfield in England and having all kinds of very large decals added for a world tour by a Portuguese football team. They were then removed after that short term lease. Quick repaints and the rapid livery changes via decals are common place.
Whilst there is some humorous elements sure . When the voyager bill was 900k on a tax payer vehicle That created some negative press !

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Old 2nd May 2022, 07:36
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Originally Posted by Rutan16 View Post
Still a cost and as for ownership the CAA STATE
TITAN AIRWAYS LTD
ENTERPRISE HOUSE, BASSINGBOURN ROAD
LONDON STANSTED AIRPORT
STANSTED
CM24
Zilch nine nada to do with the tour operator !
Again just for clarity I have No objections to a UK state transport fleet !
What really does concern me most of all is the lack of scrutiny from the media traditionally and loudly opposed to this and going back through several leaders of both main political parties !
Oh and as a pretty measure that appalling gold font !
When my company 'owned' aircraft, by which I mean we bought them outright with our own funds - surely the truest meaning of 'owned' - the CAA registry showed them as 'Owned' in the Ownership Status section on the G-INFO website. If you look there at the two Titan A321's registry details you will see that it says 'Chartered' in the Ownership Status section. How do you account for that?
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Old 2nd May 2022, 07:57
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Originally Posted by Rutan16 View Post
Whilst there is some humorous elements sure . When the voyager bill was 900k on a tax payer vehicle That created some negative press !
And how much of it was accurate, and how much of it was ill informed speculation?
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Old 2nd May 2022, 08:25
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Originally Posted by Expressflight View Post
When my company 'owned' aircraft, by which I mean we bought them outright with our own funds - surely the truest meaning of 'owned' - the CAA registry showed them as 'Owned' in the Ownership Status section on the G-INFO website. If you look there at the two Titan A321's registry details you will see that it says 'Chartered' in the Ownership Status section. How do you account for that?
For practical reasons, if an aircraft is leased or owned by someone else, itíll still show the operators name on G-INFO.
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Old 2nd May 2022, 08:26
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Didn`t that include maintenance as well
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Old 2nd May 2022, 09:14
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Old 2nd May 2022, 09:43
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB View Post
And how much of it was accurate, and how much of it was ill informed speculation?
How many times do I HAVE TO SAY I don’t object to STATE OWNED VIP transport !!!
Just these curiously obscure contracts with a Tory donor and aircraft that don’t meet the criterion.
I’d sooner spend Vastly more on the correct bit of kit !
Point to me another country/state where the prime transport of the state aren’t owned and operated by the state . Its just laughable.
France , Germany , Italy, Korea, Japan even little Eire can I go on .
These aircraft are a vanity project by the Conservative Party and they should pay the bills
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Old 2nd May 2022, 09:47
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Originally Posted by Beatts View Post

Absolutely they are operated and contractually leased by Titan again nothing to do with that Tour Group whom are a customer of Titan . That post up stream was pure drivel .

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Old 2nd May 2022, 09:52
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Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 View Post
For practical reasons, if an aircraft is leased or owned by someone else, itíll still show the operators name on G-INFO.
Correct through their IS A mystery with G- GBNI ITS SAYS CHARTERED yet left blank !
Suggesting something fishy about the final charterer ( yes itís the government we know)
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Old 2nd May 2022, 10:10
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Originally Posted by Rutan16 View Post
Correct through their IS A mystery with G- GBNI ITS SAYS CHARTERED yet left blank !
Suggesting something fishy about the final charterer ( yes itís the government we know)
No - the Titan a/c are leased/'chartered' from Air Lease Corporation (much as a/c operated by BA and EZY are) who are the owners.
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