Doncaster Sheffield-3

[ZeBedie]

The airspace change proposal is still in progress. Presumably Peel will ask the CAA to once again pause it if the negotiations are genuine?

[northernaviation]

Originally Posted by ZeBedie

The airspace change proposal is still in progress. Presumably Peel will ask the CAA to once again pause it if the negotiations are genuine?

The ACP was only paused because ATC services were not withdrawn when originally planned. Since there is no ATC provision present anymore, I believe they cannot ask them to pause, although this is just a guess.

[RAFAT]

The CAA un-paused the ACP when the ATC staff were made redundant and ATC services were withdrawn as a consequence on 2nd December:

Removal of Doncaster Sheffield Airspace

[TimmyW]

Originally Posted by dsamole

Nothing as yet. Talks are continuing and various MP's have been asked to butt out whilst talks continue.

Due diligence may take some time, wouldn't expect to hear anything before christmas.

SB.

The latest update from the mayor doesn't sound too hopeful. Suggests any interested party will want the council go down the CPO route first,

[Brewster Buffalo]

Originally Posted by TimmyW

The latest update from the mayor doesn't sound too hopeful. Suggests any interested party will want the council go down the CPO route first,

What will any interested party gain from waiting for the CPO - which will take months? The council will have to pay market value for the site just as any interested party would have to do now..

[Airbanda]

Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo

What will any interested party gain from waiting for the CPO - which will take months? The council will have to pay market value for the site just as any interested party would have to do now..

I suspect that market value as determined following a CPO may be less, and certainly no more, than would be achieved where interested parties may be in competition. It would almost certainly go the distance in terms of dispute mechanisms for CPO compensation - The Lands Chamber of the Upper Tier Tribunal then the Court of Appeal - but in the meantime the CPO would still be effective and possession taken.

[Harold77]

Is there really any chance of a CPO actually winning.

Peel have redevelopment plans for the site they are not going to leave it sat derelict.
For this reason CPO will fail. As this happened in CPO case in Seaton Carew for the Longscar Centre.

Also the Authority must attempt to purchase the site first. CPO would be chucked out the window if they haven't made attempts to buy it themselves. So far the Authorities haven't even attempted to put any offers towards buying it. So if they are going to go down the CPO route then that must mean they are ready to put in reasonable offers to buy it.

But they are not buying an airport, they will be just buying the land.

[davidjohnson6]

Where is the money for a CPO going to come from ? There had better be some very strong legal paperwork to ensure local Govt is not left with an airport in case a private company pulls out or otherwise doesn't pay in full
I can't see HM Treasury wanting to take it onto their books or providing a loan

[pug]

Originally Posted by Airbanda

I suspect that market value as determined following a CPO may be less, and certainly no more, than would be achieved where interested parties may be in competition. It would almost certainly go the distance in terms of dispute mechanisms for CPO compensation - The Lands Chamber of the Upper Tier Tribunal then the Court of Appeal - but in the meantime the CPO would still be effective and possession taken.

Can you CPO land that you haven’t already attempted to purchase through other means? And can you CPO land with the intention of selling it on?

Always been under the impression that CPO is a mechanism of last resort, primarily used when you want to build a motorway or some such through someone’s land. Given the failure so far at the courts by DMBC, I’m skeptical as to how far they would get down this route. The best possible outcome is Peel being an interested seller.

[davidjpowell]

Originally Posted by davidjohnson6

Where is the money for a CPO going to come from ? There had better be some very strong legal paperwork to ensure local Govt is not left with an airport in case a private company pulls out or otherwise doesn't pay in full
I can't see HM Treasury wanting to take it onto their books or providing a loan

Pulling out is not an issue. Worst case they now have an airport-sized lot of development land. The money is of course a different matter.

[WHBM]

Originally Posted by pug

Can you CPO land that you haven’t already attempted to purchase through other means? And can you CPO land with the intention of selling it on?

No. There will be an appeal against any order which will be looked at by whichever government department does appeals. The local authority cannot just grab it themselves. The appeal will be decided on past precedent, and not having offered true market value, in the eyes of the District Valuer, is another no-no. Peel would get costs, which would be substantial, hence a local authority needs to be sure of their ground before going down this route. The councillors might even be cautioned about being surcharged.

[Brewster Buffalo]

I suspect the interested parties want the council to purchase the land and then lease back to them at an attractive i.e. low rent.

[pug]

Originally Posted by WHBM

No. There will be an appeal against any order which will be looked at by whichever government department does appeals. The local authority cannot just grab it themselves. The appeal will be decided on past precedent, and not having offered true market value, in the eyes of the District Valuer, is another no-no. Peel would get costs, which would be substantial, hence a local authority needs to be sure of their ground before going down this route. The councillors might even be cautioned about being surcharged.

Confirmed my thoughts on this. I feel like they’re (DMBC) making public announcements to quell the likely emails and DM’s requesting updates. I feel it would be pretty foolish to pursue this given the judgement earlier in the month that Peel cannot be subjected to Judicial Review. I would suggest that DMBC place themselves in a position to have a Judicial Review carried out into themselves if they were to go down this route.

Have the council commissioned an independent review of the viability of aviation on-site and of the sites future as an airport? I would think this would be the most important starting point if they are intending on diverting funding to this. They talk about how vital the airport is, but don’t seem to have offered any answers as to how the airport can become a sustainable profitable business.

If there is still private sector interest in purchasing the site, then for me this is the only way the airport can be reopened. A CPO is high risk and possibly foolhardy, and there has been no attempt at taking an objective view to this which I feel exposes the Council to murky legal waters.

[davidjpowell]

Originally Posted by pug

Confirmed my thoughts on this. I feel like they’re (DMBC) making public announcements to quell the likely emails and DM’s requesting updates. I feel it would be pretty foolish to pursue this given the judgement earlier in the month that Peel cannot be subjected to Judicial Review. I would suggest that DMBC place themselves in a position to have a Judicial Review carried out into themselves if they were to go down this route.

Have the council commissioned an independent review of the viability of aviation on-site and of the sites future as an airport? I would think this would be the most important starting point if they are intending on diverting funding to this. They talk about how vital the airport is, but don’t seem to have offered any answers as to how the airport can become a sustainable profitable business.

If there is still private sector interest in purchasing the site, then for me this is the only way the airport can be reopened. A CPO is high risk and possibly foolhardy, and there has been no attempt at taking an objective view to this which I feel exposes the Council to murky legal waters.

Careful about who you listen to.

There is no requirement to have tried to buy the land before issuing a CPO. This is quite a useful resource if you really want to know more - https://assets.publishing.service.go...on_of_land.pdf. Biggest challenge will be showing the funding I suspect.

Undoubtedly there will be a challenge on Market Value. This won't stop it, there is an independent procedure if the parties cannot agree.

Expect some expensive and specialist lawyers to be kept busy...

[Asturias56]

where is the cash for a CPO coming from? The Govt won't hand them a dollar in the current situation and the ratepayers will get pretty streamed up when the local tax goes up - as it will - by 5% next year.

[davidjpowell]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

where is the cash for a CPO coming from? The Govt won't hand them a dollar in the current situation and the ratepayers will get pretty streamed up when the local tax goes up - as it will - by 5% next year.

Sheffield? Dunno. I suspect it would take a combined funding package from South Yorkshire local authorities and other catchment areas plus South Yorkshire Mayor. Can they raise it? We will see.

[pug]

Originally Posted by davidjpowell

Sheffield? Dunno. I suspect it would take a combined funding package from South Yorkshire local authorities and other catchment areas plus South Yorkshire Mayor. Can they raise it? We will see.

SYMCA already laid their cards on the table, this is purely a move by DMBC and nobody else. I suspect it is nothing more than posturing to try to influence the outcome.

I don’t need to be ‘careful who I listen to’, as I’m quite capable of making my own mind up on this. There is no evidence to suggest that DSA is a viable business at this time, if a private sector investor sees potential and Peel agree to sell then great, but if not the council would do well to enter into more objective discussions about what the best uses of the site are.

[davidjpowell]

Originally Posted by pug

SYMCA already laid their cards on the table, this is purely a move by DMBC and nobody else. I suspect it is nothing more than posturing to try to influence the outcome.

I don’t need to be ‘careful who I listen to’, as I’m quite capable of making my own mind up in this. There is no evidence to suggest that DSA is a viable business at this time, if a private sector investor sees potential and Peel agree to sell then great, but if not the council would do well to enter into more objective discussions about what the best uses of the site are.

Yawn. THe great thing about local government is their business case can be more about what profit the airport delivers, but also what money it brings to the local economies. Appreciated it's often smoke and mirrors, but it's real smoke and real mirrors.

Obviously other airports don't really want the competition back..

[pug]

Originally Posted by davidjpowell

Yawn. THe great thing about local government is their business case can be more about what profit the airport delivers, but also what money it brings to the local economies. Appreciated it's often smoke and mirrors, but it's real smoke and real mirrors.

Obviously other airports don't really want the competition back..

You’re contradicting yourself, are you now suggesting the council are going to buy it and run it? No private sector investor will care much about the economic impact if it means they are consistently having to move equity around to avoid insolvency as Peel have been doing for the last 15 years. The council cannot buy an piece of land that used to be an airport, to run as an airport without at least a business case to prove its not going to be a burden to the tax payer, no matter what they say. So, the only answer is selling to a private sector investor, which may still be on the cards.

Not sure what you’re on about, it’s pretty clear DSA didn’t really make a dent in other airports which is why it’s no longer an airport. It’s sad for the staff, they were what made the airport, pleasingly I’m hearing most of them have found other employment, some of whom jumped ship to my employer before the public announcement in July.

[davidjpowell]

Originally Posted by pug

You’re contradicting yourself, are you now suggesting the council are going to buy it and run it? No private sector investor will care much about the economic impact if it means they are consistently having to move equity around to avoid insolvency as Peel have been doing for the last 15 years. The council cannot buy an piece of land that used to be an airport, to run as an airport without at least a business case to prove its not going to be a burden to the tax payer, no matter what they say. So, the only answer is selling to a private sector investor, which may still be on the cards.

Not sure what you’re on about, it’s pretty clear DSA didn’t really make a dent in other airports which is why it’s no longer an airport. It’s sad for the staff, they were what made the airport, pleasingly I’m hearing most of them have found other employment, some of whom jumped ship to my employer before the public announcement in July.

They may run it. they may contract it out. I doubt if they did a CPO they would release total control.
Local authorities can afford to take a longer-term view and look further than how much money it makes in isolation.

If they will go through with the CPO or not, only time will tell.