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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 16th Dec 2022, 19:02
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The airspace change proposal is still in progress. Presumably Peel will ask the CAA to once again pause it if the negotiations are genuine?
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Old 16th Dec 2022, 19:29
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Originally Posted by ZeBedie View Post
The airspace change proposal is still in progress. Presumably Peel will ask the CAA to once again pause it if the negotiations are genuine?
The ACP was only paused because ATC services were not withdrawn when originally planned. Since there is no ATC provision present anymore, I believe they cannot ask them to pause, although this is just a guess.
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Old 17th Dec 2022, 04:09
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The CAA un-paused the ACP when the ATC staff were made redundant and ATC services were withdrawn as a consequence on 2nd December:

Removal of Doncaster Sheffield Airspace
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Old 21st Dec 2022, 11:58
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Originally Posted by dsamole View Post
Nothing as yet. Talks are continuing and various MP's have been asked to butt out whilst talks continue.

Due diligence may take some time, wouldn't expect to hear anything before christmas.

SB.
The latest update from the mayor doesn't sound too hopeful. Suggests any interested party will want the council go down the CPO route first,
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Old 21st Dec 2022, 12:11
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Originally Posted by TimmyW View Post
The latest update from the mayor doesn't sound too hopeful. Suggests any interested party will want the council go down the CPO route first,
What will any interested party gain from waiting for the CPO - which will take months? The council will have to pay market value for the site just as any interested party would have to do now..
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Old 21st Dec 2022, 20:16
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Originally Posted by Brewster Buffalo View Post
What will any interested party gain from waiting for the CPO - which will take months? The council will have to pay market value for the site just as any interested party would have to do now..
I suspect that market value as determined following a CPO may be less, and certainly no more, than would be achieved where interested parties may be in competition. It would almost certainly go the distance in terms of dispute mechanisms for CPO compensation - The Lands Chamber of the Upper Tier Tribunal then the Court of Appeal - but in the meantime the CPO would still be effective and possession taken.
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Old 21st Dec 2022, 21:32
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Is there really any chance of a CPO actually winning.

Peel have redevelopment plans for the site they are not going to leave it sat derelict.
For this reason CPO will fail. As this happened in CPO case in Seaton Carew for the Longscar Centre.

Also the Authority must attempt to purchase the site first. CPO would be chucked out the window if they haven't made attempts to buy it themselves. So far the Authorities haven't even attempted to put any offers towards buying it. So if they are going to go down the CPO route then that must mean they are ready to put in reasonable offers to buy it.

But they are not buying an airport, they will be just buying the land.
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Old 21st Dec 2022, 21:43
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Where is the money for a CPO going to come from ? There had better be some very strong legal paperwork to ensure local Govt is not left with an airport in case a private company pulls out or otherwise doesn't pay in full
I can't see HM Treasury wanting to take it onto their books or providing a loan
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Old 21st Dec 2022, 21:58
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Originally Posted by Airbanda View Post
I suspect that market value as determined following a CPO may be less, and certainly no more, than would be achieved where interested parties may be in competition. It would almost certainly go the distance in terms of dispute mechanisms for CPO compensation - The Lands Chamber of the Upper Tier Tribunal then the Court of Appeal - but in the meantime the CPO would still be effective and possession taken.
Can you CPO land that you havenít already attempted to purchase through other means? And can you CPO land with the intention of selling it on?

Always been under the impression that CPO is a mechanism of last resort, primarily used when you want to build a motorway or some such through someoneís land. Given the failure so far at the courts by DMBC, Iím skeptical as to how far they would get down this route. The best possible outcome is Peel being an interested seller.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 07:38
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6 View Post
Where is the money for a CPO going to come from ? There had better be some very strong legal paperwork to ensure local Govt is not left with an airport in case a private company pulls out or otherwise doesn't pay in full
I can't see HM Treasury wanting to take it onto their books or providing a loan
Pulling out is not an issue. Worst case they now have an airport-sized lot of development land. The money is of course a different matter.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 11:17
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
Can you CPO land that you havenít already attempted to purchase through other means? And can you CPO land with the intention of selling it on?
No. There will be an appeal against any order which will be looked at by whichever government department does appeals. The local authority cannot just grab it themselves. The appeal will be decided on past precedent, and not having offered true market value, in the eyes of the District Valuer, is another no-no. Peel would get costs, which would be substantial, hence a local authority needs to be sure of their ground before going down this route. The councillors might even be cautioned about being surcharged.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 11:20
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I suspect the interested parties want the council to purchase the land and then lease back to them at an attractive i.e. low rent.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 16:13
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
No. There will be an appeal against any order which will be looked at by whichever government department does appeals. The local authority cannot just grab it themselves. The appeal will be decided on past precedent, and not having offered true market value, in the eyes of the District Valuer, is another no-no. Peel would get costs, which would be substantial, hence a local authority needs to be sure of their ground before going down this route. The councillors might even be cautioned about being surcharged.
Confirmed my thoughts on this. I feel like theyíre (DMBC) making public announcements to quell the likely emails and DMís requesting updates. I feel it would be pretty foolish to pursue this given the judgement earlier in the month that Peel cannot be subjected to Judicial Review. I would suggest that DMBC place themselves in a position to have a Judicial Review carried out into themselves if they were to go down this route.

Have the council commissioned an independent review of the viability of aviation on-site and of the sites future as an airport? I would think this would be the most important starting point if they are intending on diverting funding to this. They talk about how vital the airport is, but donít seem to have offered any answers as to how the airport can become a sustainable profitable business.

If there is still private sector interest in purchasing the site, then for me this is the only way the airport can be reopened. A CPO is high risk and possibly foolhardy, and there has been no attempt at taking an objective view to this which I feel exposes the Council to murky legal waters.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 16:40
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
Confirmed my thoughts on this. I feel like theyíre (DMBC) making public announcements to quell the likely emails and DMís requesting updates. I feel it would be pretty foolish to pursue this given the judgement earlier in the month that Peel cannot be subjected to Judicial Review. I would suggest that DMBC place themselves in a position to have a Judicial Review carried out into themselves if they were to go down this route.

Have the council commissioned an independent review of the viability of aviation on-site and of the sites future as an airport? I would think this would be the most important starting point if they are intending on diverting funding to this. They talk about how vital the airport is, but donít seem to have offered any answers as to how the airport can become a sustainable profitable business.

If there is still private sector interest in purchasing the site, then for me this is the only way the airport can be reopened. A CPO is high risk and possibly foolhardy, and there has been no attempt at taking an objective view to this which I feel exposes the Council to murky legal waters.
Careful about who you listen to.

There is no requirement to have tried to buy the land before issuing a CPO. This is quite a useful resource if you really want to know more - https://assets.publishing.service.go...on_of_land.pdf. Biggest challenge will be showing the funding I suspect.

Undoubtedly there will be a challenge on Market Value. This won't stop it, there is an independent procedure if the parties cannot agree.

Expect some expensive and specialist lawyers to be kept busy...
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 17:48
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where is the cash for a CPO coming from? The Govt won't hand them a dollar in the current situation and the ratepayers will get pretty streamed up when the local tax goes up - as it will - by 5% next year.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 18:24
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
where is the cash for a CPO coming from? The Govt won't hand them a dollar in the current situation and the ratepayers will get pretty streamed up when the local tax goes up - as it will - by 5% next year.
Sheffield? Dunno. I suspect it would take a combined funding package from South Yorkshire local authorities and other catchment areas plus South Yorkshire Mayor. Can they raise it? We will see.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 19:17
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell View Post
Sheffield? Dunno. I suspect it would take a combined funding package from South Yorkshire local authorities and other catchment areas plus South Yorkshire Mayor. Can they raise it? We will see.
SYMCA already laid their cards on the table, this is purely a move by DMBC and nobody else. I suspect it is nothing more than posturing to try to influence the outcome.

I donít need to be Ďcareful who I listen toí, as Iím quite capable of making my own mind up on this. There is no evidence to suggest that DSA is a viable business at this time, if a private sector investor sees potential and Peel agree to sell then great, but if not the council would do well to enter into more objective discussions about what the best uses of the site are.

Last edited by pug; 22nd Dec 2022 at 19:38.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 19:38
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
SYMCA already laid their cards on the table, this is purely a move by DMBC and nobody else. I suspect it is nothing more than posturing to try to influence the outcome.

I donít need to be Ďcareful who I listen toí, as Iím quite capable of making my own mind up in this. There is no evidence to suggest that DSA is a viable business at this time, if a private sector investor sees potential and Peel agree to sell then great, but if not the council would do well to enter into more objective discussions about what the best uses of the site are.
Yawn. THe great thing about local government is their business case can be more about what profit the airport delivers, but also what money it brings to the local economies. Appreciated it's often smoke and mirrors, but it's real smoke and real mirrors.

Obviously other airports don't really want the competition back..
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 20:32
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Originally Posted by davidjpowell View Post
Yawn. THe great thing about local government is their business case can be more about what profit the airport delivers, but also what money it brings to the local economies. Appreciated it's often smoke and mirrors, but it's real smoke and real mirrors.

Obviously other airports don't really want the competition back..
Youíre contradicting yourself, are you now suggesting the council are going to buy it and run it? No private sector investor will care much about the economic impact if it means they are consistently having to move equity around to avoid insolvency as Peel have been doing for the last 15 years. The council cannot buy an piece of land that used to be an airport, to run as an airport without at least a business case to prove its not going to be a burden to the tax payer, no matter what they say. So, the only answer is selling to a private sector investor, which may still be on the cards.

Not sure what youíre on about, itís pretty clear DSA didnít really make a dent in other airports which is why itís no longer an airport. Itís sad for the staff, they were what made the airport, pleasingly Iím hearing most of them have found other employment, some of whom jumped ship to my employer before the public announcement in July.
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Old 22nd Dec 2022, 22:42
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
Youíre contradicting yourself, are you now suggesting the council are going to buy it and run it? No private sector investor will care much about the economic impact if it means they are consistently having to move equity around to avoid insolvency as Peel have been doing for the last 15 years. The council cannot buy an piece of land that used to be an airport, to run as an airport without at least a business case to prove its not going to be a burden to the tax payer, no matter what they say. So, the only answer is selling to a private sector investor, which may still be on the cards.

Not sure what youíre on about, itís pretty clear DSA didnít really make a dent in other airports which is why itís no longer an airport. Itís sad for the staff, they were what made the airport, pleasingly Iím hearing most of them have found other employment, some of whom jumped ship to my employer before the public announcement in July.
They may run it. they may contract it out. I doubt if they did a CPO they would release total control.
Local authorities can afford to take a longer-term view and look further than how much money it makes in isolation.

If they will go through with the CPO or not, only time will tell.
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