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Doncaster Sheffield-3

Old 19th Aug 2022, 08:10
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Well, youíre entitled to your opinion.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 10:43
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Originally Posted by AndrewH52 View Post
Fine. Donít provide revenue support but why not adopt the US approach where airports are recognised as essential infrastructure and so can qualify for federal funding for runways, terminal and security improvements and other technical kit. U.K. airports carry the full burden with very limited state aid. Not having to do so would reduce the pressure enormously.
Can see what you mean, and I think there should perhaps be funding on hand to help smaller airports invest in the necessary equipment with changing regulations - assuming that isnít already available. However I think the U.K. airport market and that of the US is pretty incomparable. Obviously in places like the US and Australia, where cities are perhaps separated by thousands of miles, the only viable transport option is air travel. Not really the case in the U.K. where most of the more heavily populated areas are within an hour to an hour and a half of at least one airport. To that end I donít believe DSA is a vital part of the national infrastructure, in the case of South Yorkshire there is MAN, LBA, EMA and HUY within relatively easy reach.

I do think a national airport framework should have been developed (airport at Burtonwood and Ferrybridge in the case of the M62 corridor), but this idea was abandoned decades ago in favour of local governance determining their own airport provisions. Alongside privatisation and market driven growth, this has left Yorkshire in an unenviable position relative to the rest of the U.K.

Not sure what is going on behind the scenes, but I think Oliver Coppard is spot on when he says that DSA should be taken on by another private investment organisation if it is to remain open.

Last edited by pug; 19th Aug 2022 at 11:00.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 11:32
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Most airports in the US are publicly owned. Over 3,300 are eligible to receive funding from the FAA. The point is they see this as important in providing resilience to the system. Our private-sector approach is failing, in my view.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 11:49
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PEEL have announced the consultation is to be extended until late September.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 11:50
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Originally Posted by dsamole View Post
PEEL have announced the consultation is to be extended until late September.
This has to be seen as positive?

They could pull the plug next week at the end of the original period.

We shall see
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 13:29
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
I donít believe DSA is a vital part of the national infrastructure, in the case of South Yorkshire there is MAN, LBA, EMA and HUY within relatively easy reach.

.
MAN,LBA,HUY,EMA are all on extremes of the great County Ė Given no one will build a New airport in Yorkshire, Hypothetically speaking isnít DSA the only viable semi central location, with Motorway & Rail access that has any potential for growth to say STN levels of traffic? Surely that would make it a vital part of National Infrastructure to the UKís largest Counties of Yorkshire & Lincolnshire.

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Old 19th Aug 2022, 14:35
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Peel announce plans for a £100m canabis farm.

Originally Posted by TimmyW View Post
This has to be seen as positive?

They could pull the plug next week at the end of the original period.

We shall see
Peel did the delaying game at Teesside. Look at the press history for Teesside and Peel.

They will be waiting for the mayor or government to give them millions to walk off into the sunset. Which is what happened at MME.

In the meantime, the boss wants to build a £100m canabis farm offshore.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/28/bill...le-of-man.html

A more lucrative venture than airports.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 14:45
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ View Post
MAN,LBA,HUY,EMA are all on extremes of the great County Ė Given no one will build a New airport in Yorkshire, Hypothetically speaking isnít DSA the only viable semi central location, with Motorway & Rail access that has any potential for growth to say STN levels of traffic? Surely that would make it a vital part of National Infrastructure to the UKís largest Counties of Yorkshire & Lincolnshire.
If it survives, I donít ever foresee DSA being a STN of the North without the closure of, at least some, of the surrounding airports mentioned. The green agenda wonít allow it. Then of course, you have a similar situation to what we have now in DSA because the 3 East Midlands cities and certainly Leeds, wonít want to give up their airports.

Strategic national airport infrastructure in the North will be firmly at MAN.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 14:47
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ View Post
MAN,LBA,HUY,EMA are all on extremes of the great County Ė Given no one will build a New airport in Yorkshire, Hypothetically speaking isnít DSA the only viable semi central location, with Motorway & Rail access that has any potential for growth to say STN levels of traffic? Surely that would make it a vital part of National Infrastructure to the UKís largest Counties of Yorkshire & Lincolnshire.
It's population centres that need to be served, not fields. Look at your map again and see where the potential passengers live.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 15:20
  #470 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ View Post
MAN,LBA,HUY,EMA are all on extremes of the great County Ė Given no one will build a New airport in Yorkshire, Hypothetically speaking isnít DSA the only viable semi central location, with Motorway & Rail access that has any potential for growth to say STN levels of traffic? Surely that would make it a vital part of National Infrastructure to the UKís largest Counties of Yorkshire & Lincolnshire.
Central yes, but peripheral to the main population centres it needs to draw from to be viable.

If LBA and DSA were publicly owned then there may be an argument for consolidating at DSA. Good luck with convincing AMP Capital to close LBA though, given itís that Yorkshire airport that has doubled its passenger throughput since DSA opened and is still growing.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 15:48
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
Central yes, but peripheral to the main population centres it needs to draw from to be viable.

If LBA and DSA were publicly owned then there may be an argument for consolidating at DSA. Good luck with convincing AMP Capital to close LBA though, given itís that Yorkshire airport that has doubled its passenger throughput since DSA opened and is still growing.
you mean chose to support a progressive new low cost Dart Up.. sorry Start Up rather than putting all eggs in one basket with Thompson now TUI .. that worked great for DSA didnít it. Oh but for hindsight.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 15:59
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ View Post
you mean chose to support a progressive new low cost Dart Up.. sorry Start Up rather than putting all eggs in one basket with Thompson now TUI .. that worked great for DSA didnít it. Oh but for hindsight.
Not sure what youíre trying to allude to there? Jet2 started at LBA in 2003, before DSA opened. Ryanair opened a base there since DSA opened. Isnít it more the case that the management of DSA have been trying to entice other operators to establish there but each time seem to struggle to attract sufficient passenger numbers to sustain the services? Hardly a case if wilfully putting all their eggs in one basket. Wizzair could have been a deal breaker - itís been mentioned before that they had plans to base 5 aircraft at DSA not long ago - sadly they seem to have lost direction and for whatever reason that hasnít worked. Why have easyJet shunned the Yorkshire market? By your logic surely DSA is ideal for them?
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 16:06
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Maybe it has something to do with the owners long term plans! Re Teesside now Doncaster?
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 16:51
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
Not sure what youíre trying to allude to there?
Iím only alluding to the fact that Jet 2 are largely responsible for making LBA a success in the same way Ryanair have made STN a success.
All the launch blurb at DSA cited targets of 3m passengers, yet Peel have been unable or unwilling to incentivise the airlines that would give them the product to meet those numbers. When they have attracted other airlines they have been of the type that expect everyone to know they are there, without marketing, and have been less than consistent or reliable with all the expected results. Contrast this with Jet2 who have rammed Jess Glynn down peoples throats until they book a flight or holiday to the point now they donít need to because they are well respected for their product and value and people will travel to LBA from the whole region to take one of their flights. DSA will only be as good as the airlines that serve it but I do see it has the potential to outserve all other airports in the Yorkshire area.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 17:05
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ View Post
Iím only alluding to the fact that Jet 2 are largely responsible for making LBA a success in the same way Ryanair have made STN a success.
All the launch blurb at DSA cited targets of 3m passengers, yet Peel have been unable or unwilling to incentivise the airlines that would give them the product to meet those numbers. When they have attracted other airlines they have been of the type that expect everyone to know they are there, without marketing, and have been less than consistent or reliable with all the expected results. Contrast this with Jet2 who have rammed Jess Glynn down peoples throats until they book a flight or holiday to the point now they donít need to because they are well respected for their product and value and people will travel to LBA from the whole region to take one of their flights. DSA will only be as good as the airlines that serve it but I do see it has the potential to outserve all other airports in the Yorkshire area.
And furthermore either EMA/LBA or both are only 20 mins or so further from most of South Yorkshire than DSA.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 17:37
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Originally Posted by sunday8pm View Post
And furthermore either EMA/LBA or both are only 20 mins or so further from most of South Yorkshire than DSA.
Some very poor Geography on here. West Yorkshire has a population of 2.5 million South Yorkshire 1.4 million.
Leeds is central in West Yorkshire, DSA is on the Eastern fringes of South Yorkshire with little population to the east.
People to the West of Leeds have Manchester as an alternative. They are not going to travel to DSA.
South Yorkshire tried an Airport on the fringes of Sheffield and it failed. The population of South Yorkshire will never support an airport whilst EMA and LBA are available.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 18:11
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Originally Posted by flybar View Post
Some very poor Geography on here. West Yorkshire has a population of 2.5 million South Yorkshire 1.4 million.
Leeds is central in West Yorkshire, DSA is on the Eastern fringes of South Yorkshire with little population to the east.
People to the West of Leeds have Manchester as an alternative. They are not going to travel to DSA.
South Yorkshire tried an Airport on the fringes of Sheffield and it failed. The population of South Yorkshire will never support an airport whilst EMA and LBA are available.
Location, location, location.
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 18:21
  #478 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G-FORZ View Post
Iím only alluding to the fact that Jet 2 are largely responsible for making LBA a success in the same way Ryanair have made STN a success.
All the launch blurb at DSA cited targets of 3m passengers, yet Peel have been unable or unwilling to incentivise the airlines that would give them the product to meet those numbers. When they have attracted other airlines they have been of the type that expect everyone to know they are there, without marketing, and have been less than consistent or reliable with all the expected results. Contrast this with Jet2 who have rammed Jess Glynn down peoples throats until they book a flight or holiday to the point now they donít need to because they are well respected for their product and value and people will travel to LBA from the whole region to take one of their flights. DSA will only be as good as the airlines that serve it but I do see it has the potential to outserve all other airports in the Yorkshire area.
Right, so youíre blaming jet2 for not realising the potential of DSA, but also Peel for not Ďincentivisingí enough..?

Handling and landing charges will be subject to commercial sensitivity so nobody except the airport management/development and relevant people in the respective airlines know what is/isnít happening on that front. Advertising is also usually a combined effort, and I saw adverts for easyjet and FlyBe everywhere when they were operating from DSA, so that doesnít wash. Agreements are most likely subject to a minimum passenger throughput to qualify for rebates and/or lower charges. Suspect this may be why Wizzair pulled their base.

Somebody on another forum calculated the cost per head to DSA of each passenger using the airport in 2019, it was discovered that it cost DSA/Peel £1.73 for each passenger using the airport. Caveat being that doesnít account for the other aviation business on site. However, with that in mind at what point (I.e how many passengers are required) do the costs become offset and that turn into a positive figure?
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 18:46
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Originally Posted by flybar View Post
Some very poor Geography on here. West Yorkshire has a population of 2.5 million South Yorkshire 1.4 million.
Leeds is central in West Yorkshire, DSA is on the Eastern fringes of South Yorkshire with little population to the east.
People to the West of Leeds have Manchester as an alternative. They are not going to travel to DSA.
South Yorkshire tried an Airport on the fringes of Sheffield and it failed. The population of South Yorkshire will never support an airport whilst EMA and LBA are available.
According to Google it's 40 miles from EMA to the M1-M18 junction near Sheffield. It's about 12 from the same place to DSA. It's over 30 from Tinsley viaduct to LBA. Just saying....
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Old 19th Aug 2022, 18:56
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Originally Posted by pug View Post
Right, so youíre blaming jet2 for not realising the potential of DSA, but also Peel for not Ďincentivisingí enoughÖ..at what point (I.e how many passengers are required) do the costs become offset and that turn into a positive figure?
You misunderstand me, there is no blame on Jet2, only on Peel for their naive dependence and I suspect a level of honour to TUI, ignoring or offering less incentive to other opportunities to develop the airport. TUI alone were a gamble to give them 3m passengers, but I guess in 2005 nobody saw Jet 2 taking the market the way they have. By 2010 surely this should have been realised. Looking at other seemingly sustainable airports 3m passengers is the sweet spot where the negative turns into positive with the right retail and car parking returns, but they knew this from the beginning.
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