TUI airways-2
The UK's objective always was to ostensibly open up international travel, but then ensure that the number and height of hurdles over which would be travellers have to jump was such that it largely made leisure too much hassle for the majority. It surprises me not one iota that the private (rip off) business that are conducting the PCR testing aren't analysing for new variants, they're merely covering a commercial transaction with passengers that has been required by the government. The "Lighthouse" labs and those of the likes of Oxford and Imperial Universities are much more likely to be sequencing to establish the existence of new variants. The uncertainty around the risk level of possible destinations just adds a further (perhaps deliberate) level of uncertainty to the extent that when booking a trip the number one consideration should be "can I afford to self isolate at home should my destination turn amber?" or "can I afford the government hotel stay should my destination turn Red?" If the answer to either is "no" then, don't travel.
As to whether testing regimes are still in place this time next year, I wouldn't bet my house on their having ceased by August 2022.
As to whether testing regimes are still in place this time next year, I wouldn't bet my house on their having ceased by August 2022.
Nothing special, but I'm not about to place a bet on it, given the way this virus transmits, and there not being another new variant sometime over the next few months that puts the willies up governments, not only in UK but across much of the world.
I did say I wouldn't in my previous posting, not that I would!
I did say I wouldn't in my previous posting, not that I would!
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Meanwhile the rest of Europe is travelling and having fun. 787s and 747s operating short haul flights because of demand. Good to hear things are ok at TUI though. Hopefully the Europe side helps keep things going.
But for how long? Germany's figures are really on the rise now, and they have added some Greek Islands as areas of risk meaning testing and quarantine on return. Certainly TUI UK must be in a better situation than many here having been essentially supported by German Government money during the pandemic.
I am really surprised that TUI hasn't become involved in the emergency airlift of personnel from Afghanistan. With so many 787s redundant presently you might have though they would have placed a competitive tender (supposing I guess they were even approached to do so). They are already operating 2 x 787-9s on EMA-MIA cargo services for DHL.
I am really surprised that TUI hasn't become involved in the emergency airlift of personnel from Afghanistan. With so many 787s redundant presently you might have though they would have placed a competitive tender (supposing I guess they were even approached to do so). They are already operating 2 x 787-9s on EMA-MIA cargo services for DHL.
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whatdoesthisbuttondo
Whilst I admire your optimism I can assure you that not all working groups within TUI are being treated in the same way nor are they being as well 'looked after' as the guys and gals upfront. I've personally seen pilots recruited just as the pandemic started being treated fantastically well, whilst members of staff elsewhere with 20 and 30+ years service being shown the door. And I'm sure that many of the cabin crew that are currently going through the CR process wouldn't share your sentiments either. Several working groups who worked right through the pandemic even when all the fleet was grounded have been on a far worse deal than the drivers. I'm not knocking what you guys negotiated, just noting that it's not all as rosy across the business.
I see a lot mentioned of the German "support" however these were not bailouts, they were loans, and TUI as a whole now have a monumental amount of debt to repay and will need several very good years to get back on an even keel. They are not alone in this regard however they have several competitors who are not as debt laden.
I just hope that the never ending restrictions are released as more countries get vaccination rates up and we can all get back to work properly.
Whilst I admire your optimism I can assure you that not all working groups within TUI are being treated in the same way nor are they being as well 'looked after' as the guys and gals upfront. I've personally seen pilots recruited just as the pandemic started being treated fantastically well, whilst members of staff elsewhere with 20 and 30+ years service being shown the door. And I'm sure that many of the cabin crew that are currently going through the CR process wouldn't share your sentiments either. Several working groups who worked right through the pandemic even when all the fleet was grounded have been on a far worse deal than the drivers. I'm not knocking what you guys negotiated, just noting that it's not all as rosy across the business.
I see a lot mentioned of the German "support" however these were not bailouts, they were loans, and TUI as a whole now have a monumental amount of debt to repay and will need several very good years to get back on an even keel. They are not alone in this regard however they have several competitors who are not as debt laden.
I just hope that the never ending restrictions are released as more countries get vaccination rates up and we can all get back to work properly.
Unfortunately this is the reality of an airline... even before the pandemic. Shows you what a strong union can threaten.
What is the latest on a possible head office move to MK? Is that just rumour?
Anyway, on the point of testing - am I right in thinking, regardless of destination, there is no requirement for a PCR test for entry into the UK, its just the follow up tests that need to be performed as PCRs when back in England? For a flight, a rapid lateral flow test would suffice? (so you could literally take your box of tests with you in the suitcase?)
In all honesty, we're nowhere near the end of this. I'd be surprised if testing wasn't required still by the end of next summer. Which is frustrating because Covid is going to keep rolling through for many a year - with immunity possibly waning, we're at maximum protection. Yet still heavily restricted. The news cycle is not pushing the government on it either.
What is the latest on a possible head office move to MK? Is that just rumour?
Anyway, on the point of testing - am I right in thinking, regardless of destination, there is no requirement for a PCR test for entry into the UK, its just the follow up tests that need to be performed as PCRs when back in England? For a flight, a rapid lateral flow test would suffice? (so you could literally take your box of tests with you in the suitcase?)
In all honesty, we're nowhere near the end of this. I'd be surprised if testing wasn't required still by the end of next summer. Which is frustrating because Covid is going to keep rolling through for many a year - with immunity possibly waning, we're at maximum protection. Yet still heavily restricted. The news cycle is not pushing the government on it either.
You need to book a lateral flow test from an “approved supplier”, you cannot use a standard NHS one.
You then take this test kit with you, perform the test within 72 hours of arrival, and then upload the result to the providers website. You are then sent a negative certificate, and this is thoroughly checked at the overseas check in desk along with proof you have completed the UK Government pax locator form.
You then take this test kit with you, perform the test within 72 hours of arrival, and then upload the result to the providers website. You are then sent a negative certificate, and this is thoroughly checked at the overseas check in desk along with proof you have completed the UK Government pax locator form.
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Sorry that's not accurate.
Your day 2 test after landing back into the UK has to be a government approved one, and the reference added to your locator form before you fly. No requirement to buy an expensive test and take it with you, just research and make sure you can access one where you are... it's likely to be free or much cheaper in your destination.
Your pre-return lateral flow test can be done by anyone, mine was a free one done at the airport before I flew home.
Your day 2 test after landing back into the UK has to be a government approved one, and the reference added to your locator form before you fly. No requirement to buy an expensive test and take it with you, just research and make sure you can access one where you are... it's likely to be free or much cheaper in your destination.
Your pre-return lateral flow test can be done by anyone, mine was a free one done at the airport before I flew home.
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Yeehaw22
On the contrary, government debt is very different to private debt. No government (except ours maybe…) will let a company collapse due to failure to repay loans to them if it was a company that had a strong balance sheet pre-covid, took mitigations to decrease the impact of Covid as much as possible, and has strong forward bookings for the future. Europe (and Trump, to give credit where due) came forward fairly early on saying that they’ll help the airlines as it’s not their fault. The terms of the debt will be very loose, this isn’t a Thomas Cook-esque situation.
On the contrary, government debt is very different to private debt. No government (except ours maybe…) will let a company collapse due to failure to repay loans to them if it was a company that had a strong balance sheet pre-covid, took mitigations to decrease the impact of Covid as much as possible, and has strong forward bookings for the future. Europe (and Trump, to give credit where due) came forward fairly early on saying that they’ll help the airlines as it’s not their fault. The terms of the debt will be very loose, this isn’t a Thomas Cook-esque situation.
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Yeehaww22
Apologies if my post was insensitive, I was obviously speaking from a pilot’s pov but my view is also reflected in the cabin crew I work with at LGW also, I’m aware not everyone in the business has been so lucky.
Our pilots union (who have a great and mutually beneficial relationship with management) right at the beginning was very proactive and negotiated a big pay drop for all of us to avoid any redundancy, with a staged increase as the months, and work built up again, we’ve now moved up to 90% of our basic pay but that’s only just happened really. This was done long before other airlines started looking at redundancies.
The advantage TUI has is also that all our passengers are holiday passengers which unlike business travel hasn’t been replaced by zoom and teams meetings, plus the company has been great in coming up with and providing the popular testing packages.
I’m sorry to hear that you or others may be feeling a very different experience at the moment and hopefully that will improve soon.
Apologies if my post was insensitive, I was obviously speaking from a pilot’s pov but my view is also reflected in the cabin crew I work with at LGW also, I’m aware not everyone in the business has been so lucky.
Our pilots union (who have a great and mutually beneficial relationship with management) right at the beginning was very proactive and negotiated a big pay drop for all of us to avoid any redundancy, with a staged increase as the months, and work built up again, we’ve now moved up to 90% of our basic pay but that’s only just happened really. This was done long before other airlines started looking at redundancies.
The advantage TUI has is also that all our passengers are holiday passengers which unlike business travel hasn’t been replaced by zoom and teams meetings, plus the company has been great in coming up with and providing the popular testing packages.
I’m sorry to hear that you or others may be feeling a very different experience at the moment and hopefully that will improve soon.
The German government had to get special permission from the EU to rescue TUI. I wouldnt be so sure they will be allowed to refinance those loans forever. Plus, they are on commercial terms, so €10bn of debt gives an awfully high interest payment. Nearly €500m a year apparently. And that’s due before they pay for their aircraft, pay their crews ect. That’s an awful lot of money to find, and you still haven’t paid down the capital.
The only way out is to sell some of the family silver to pay down the debt.
Sound familiar?
The only way out is to sell some of the family silver to pay down the debt.
Sound familiar?
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Pre-pandemic TUI was making a substantial profit and paying its shareholders about 400 million euros in dividends and servicing all its debt. Dividends have been suspended until the debt has been paid down. Assuming the world returns to some sort of normal the interest payments won’t be a problem. Furthermore, there is no debt due to be paid back until 2024. This is not like Thomas Cook who were just running flat out to stand still. However, if the world doesn’t return to normal all airline and travel companies will be in the same boat, trying to survive and waiting for better times.
Thomas Cook didn’t start out running flat out to stand still. Although that’s where they ended up.
They started out by having so much debt that they couldn’t invest in the product. They were up against competitors who were cheaper, leaner, fitter, and nowhere near as highly leveraged. Because they couldn’t invest, the product couldn’t keep up with their competitors, slowly customers went else where, slowly the product got worse and the debt never went away.
It took Thomas cook about 10 years to succumb to their debts. It will be about the same for TUI.
They started out by having so much debt that they couldn’t invest in the product. They were up against competitors who were cheaper, leaner, fitter, and nowhere near as highly leveraged. Because they couldn’t invest, the product couldn’t keep up with their competitors, slowly customers went else where, slowly the product got worse and the debt never went away.
It took Thomas cook about 10 years to succumb to their debts. It will be about the same for TUI.
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Jonty you seem a bit negative about TUI? Posting negatively about their recruitment and deal for ex Thomas cook new joiners and now on this thread all about TUIs long term chances. Sounds like you’ve got an axe to grind, which is fair enough but it’s a bit unfair to be trying to stoke up fear and negativity about another company, especially during a pandemic.
TUI have been a great employer during the pandemic and their outlook is better than most U.K. airlines,
TUI even kept on all the ex Thomas cook pilots that you were saying got such a poor deal when they joined. I’ve done a few courses with some of them during the pandemic and they all seem VERY happy they came to TUI. Many of them haven’t even done revenue flights for TUI and are still being kept on and paid. Not many other airlines would have done that.
TUI have been a great employer during the pandemic and their outlook is better than most U.K. airlines,
TUI even kept on all the ex Thomas cook pilots that you were saying got such a poor deal when they joined. I’ve done a few courses with some of them during the pandemic and they all seem VERY happy they came to TUI. Many of them haven’t even done revenue flights for TUI and are still being kept on and paid. Not many other airlines would have done that.
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Well it is positive you think that TUI will be around in ten years. The problem with Thomas Cook was that it’s foundations were built on shifting sand. It’s merger with MyTravel brought with it a lot of unsound businesses which MyTravel had bought using debt to pay for them. It was then difficult to integrate these into the overall business and because any profit went into servicing the debt the company couldn’t afford to invest to transform the business. Also, it suited some of the Thomas Cook investors to let the company collapse as they could pick up the assets they really wanted at a knockdown price and free of debt. TUI is in a much better position and has a much more focussed business plan. Even with Covid it is continuing to invest in its business. I personally think that, if it can get through the pandemic, it will be a much more profitable company than it was before with a bright future.
whatdoesthisbuttondo
Sounds like you should start a "fanboy" thread, where we can post nothing but "positive vibes" about TUI. A "safe space" away from real life.
Sounds like you should start a "fanboy" thread, where we can post nothing but "positive vibes" about TUI. A "safe space" away from real life.
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Maybe, but it seems unfair when an ex Thomas cook pilot who went to jet2 instead of TUI after Thomas Cook unfortunately went bust (for whatever reason) should be a bit more open when you’re now bad mouthing TUI and spreading negative rumours about the company,
if you just say you’re having a go because you didn’t want to work for us in TUI or didn’t get in, then that’s great.
Anyway, hopefully things are good at jet2!
if you just say you’re having a go because you didn’t want to work for us in TUI or didn’t get in, then that’s great.
Anyway, hopefully things are good at jet2!
double-oscar
I don't think there's a question mark over it getting through the pandemic. Its just what state it will be in when this is all over
As for comparisons with Thomas Cook, When Thomas Cook merged with MyTravel it was in a crash rich position. Its future seemed assured. Within 12 years it had gone bust. Those solid foundations can turn to sand very quickly. At the end of the day TUIs problem is the same as Thomas Cooks, debt. How its managed and repaid will be the difference between the two.
All Airlines and travel companies have had to take on huge debts to see themselves through this. IAG owe billions, same with easyJet, Virgin are touch and go, Jet2 have got issues, Wizz seem ok, Ryan air seem ok as well. The last 2 have a very low cost base. Air France and Lufthansa will not be allowed to go under, Alitalia should have gone bust about 10 years ago. Its going to be a very interesting few years seeing how this all plays out.
One question that plays on my mind, post Brexit, If TUI get another bailout from the German government, would that fall foul of anti-competition laws here in the UK? And if so, what consequences would that have for TUI UK?
I don't think there's a question mark over it getting through the pandemic. Its just what state it will be in when this is all over
As for comparisons with Thomas Cook, When Thomas Cook merged with MyTravel it was in a crash rich position. Its future seemed assured. Within 12 years it had gone bust. Those solid foundations can turn to sand very quickly. At the end of the day TUIs problem is the same as Thomas Cooks, debt. How its managed and repaid will be the difference between the two.
All Airlines and travel companies have had to take on huge debts to see themselves through this. IAG owe billions, same with easyJet, Virgin are touch and go, Jet2 have got issues, Wizz seem ok, Ryan air seem ok as well. The last 2 have a very low cost base. Air France and Lufthansa will not be allowed to go under, Alitalia should have gone bust about 10 years ago. Its going to be a very interesting few years seeing how this all plays out.
One question that plays on my mind, post Brexit, If TUI get another bailout from the German government, would that fall foul of anti-competition laws here in the UK? And if so, what consequences would that have for TUI UK?
whatdoesthisbuttondo
Spreading rumours? Which rumours were those? There was a fact based news report about restructuring. Then there's an open discussion (hardly "having a go") about the level of debt TUI have taken on and what that means for the company. None of that is "rumour".
Im sorry you feel that my input is stoking negativity, but having worked in charter for over 20 years, and worked for a highly leveraged company that eventually collapsed, its a topic of which I have some experience. I would suggest, if this topic of discussion makes you uncomfortable, you ask yourself why that would be so?
I do have a bee in my bonnet about how TUI took advantage of exTCX crews after Thomas Cook collapsed, but I suppose you could argue they redeemed themselves by keeping them on.
As for Jet2, we can have a discussion about their problems on the Jet2 thread if you like?
Spreading rumours? Which rumours were those? There was a fact based news report about restructuring. Then there's an open discussion (hardly "having a go") about the level of debt TUI have taken on and what that means for the company. None of that is "rumour".
Im sorry you feel that my input is stoking negativity, but having worked in charter for over 20 years, and worked for a highly leveraged company that eventually collapsed, its a topic of which I have some experience. I would suggest, if this topic of discussion makes you uncomfortable, you ask yourself why that would be so?
I do have a bee in my bonnet about how TUI took advantage of exTCX crews after Thomas Cook collapsed, but I suppose you could argue they redeemed themselves by keeping them on.
As for Jet2, we can have a discussion about their problems on the Jet2 thread if you like?
