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Old 9th Sep 2020, 21:34
  #21 (permalink)  
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Apologies for my confusion but it does sound a lot like a virtual airline.
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Old 9th Sep 2020, 21:39
  #22 (permalink)  
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I'm not angry at the company. I'm angry that lessons clearly haven't been learned by those who supposedly make up the rules - or else these loopholes would have been sealed shut. It's all well and good if the Isle of Man wish to make their own laws but at least look where that ended up last time.

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Old 9th Sep 2020, 21:43
  #23 (permalink)  
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ATOL regulations may have no standing in the IOM, but as you are selling tickets to UK passengers for travel originating in the UK, you are bound by the regulations for any such sales. The ATOL regulations do not apply only to packages - they apply to seat-only services as well.

If you are acting as a ticket agent on behalf of an AOC holder, you are required to make that clear. I am sure that the CAA would have told you that. I cannot imagine that they have sanctioned an arrangement where there is an obvious absence of transparency, especially given the sensitivity around this. It is a legal obligation that the passenger must be aware of the party with whom they are entering into a contract for carriage. The ticket agent arrangement also means that if Ettyl was to cease trading, the AOC holder (so Eastern) would have an obligation to either carry the passenger or refund their money if they elected not to fly (and pay compensation depending on the notice given of flight cancellation).

Let's cut to the chase:

Question 1
If I buy a ticket from you, with whom am I entering into a contract?

Question 2
Does your agreement to charter the aircraft from the AOC holder either include an agreement for you to act as a ticketing agent on the operator's behalf or is there a separate such agreement?

Question 3
Have you actually received UK CAA acceptance of this or any other arrangement which confirms you are exempt from the need to hold an ATOL?
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 01:56
  #24 (permalink)  
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I last viewed this thread only some 12 hours ago and upon my return it has all kicked off with perhaps the only words of reason coming from davidjohnson6.

I predicted to myself that this or similar situation would happen, that all the critics and nay sayers bored during lockdown would emerge having experienced a similar situation on PPRuNe myself.

Now to try and put things in to some perspective if operating flights utilising another operator's aircraft is unacceptable and worthy of ban then that puts an end to the commonplace practice of sub-chartering and sub-leasing, aren't codeshare agreements doing precisely that and as another example where would Australia have been during the 1989/1990 pilots dispute had Ansett and Australian Airlines not been selling tickets for travel on the aircraft of European operators?

And operating one's own aircraft on another operator's AOC has been a common practice also with a prime example of this being easyJet, when easyJet started selling tickets and operating they didn't even have an AOC or a ground operations department, they were operating on Air Foyle's AOC and who would have heard of a guy 'Stellios' at that time, had there been the internet and rumour network in those days might he have found himself being accused of being a fraudster with less than knowledgable individuals threatening to write to their MP's to have his operation grounded?

Now having been thru a similar kangaroo court situation here myself I have some sympathy towards these people at Ettyl, PPRuNe is paid for by revenue earned from commercial advertising, individual posters here are not permitted to commercially advertise and even Jenny Tails posting the commercial link in her first post has breached the rules that we all agree to before posting here.

Bound by those same rules are the people of Ettyl, perhaps their mistake was to join this discussion in the first instance but I made that same mistake once before also, a number of you are firing off questions at these people which should they answer to they shall be effectively commercially advertising their product which PPRuNe forbids them to do and I have a hunch that the mods shall be paying particular attention to this.

As with my previous situation it was as if I had been lined up against a wall and the firing squad were taking shots at me that I had no course of defence against, not that many if any of you are likely to listen but that is what you are doing to these people at Ettyl and they are not in a position to defend against you without paying PPRuNe to commercially advertise.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 04:11
  #25 (permalink)  
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Honestly there are some sharks on here. The guy came on to a public forum and faced the critics (who are faceless and all powerful). Not having specific airline experience does not and should not rule somebody out, though clearly they need an experienced team around them to avoid expensive pitfalls etc.
We've come to a stage where the list of airlines has dwindled substantially and not withstanding the current challenges, there would seem to be few opportunities to viably enter the market. We need (imho) to welcome this development and clearly Eastern are a reputable and safe airline. That gives confidence and supporting a British airline ...

It's also a brave move to get into anything airline amidst this pandemic... so best of luck to those concerned.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 06:33
  #26 (permalink)  
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Well that might be stretching things a bit!

In any case, it’s perhaps understandable hostility, given relatively recent events, not helped by some elementary mistakes on their website which won’t do anything to boost confidence in the operation.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 06:54
  #27 (permalink)  
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I particularly liked

"our routes stretching from continent to continent"
About Ettyl

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Old 10th Sep 2020, 07:31
  #28 (permalink)  
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The comparison with the early stages of easyJet is superficial and not accurate. When the business started, it did not have its own AOC and actually flew on GB Airways’ AOC before moving onto Air Foyle’s.

There was a clear and CAA approved protection structure in place around easyJet when it began, and they had hired a reputable lawyer to advise them on it.

The comparison is valid in so far as you can start without an AOC and it can be done, but that’s about as far as the similarities go.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 08:10
  #29 (permalink)  
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The days of starting on somebody else's AOC are, for all intents and purposes, dead. Any enquiry to the CAA will make that very clear. As regards the Isle of Man, they don't have their own version of the CAA. All IOM operations are governed by CAA regulations.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 10:51
  #30 (permalink)  
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If it helps, I booked with them when they initially tried to start up. IOM-MAN. Just one pair of flights. When it didn't happen, they were quite prompt in issuing a full refund. No problem at all.
The Island really does need to drop the Open Skies model. With U2 offering MAN flights daily for three days a week imminent, it will no doubt ruin the Loganair product and lead to no IOM-MAN flights some days or at weekends. EasyJet and an Island that needs frequency and guaranteed service are not a good mix!

Good luck to anyone helping to knock certain politicians into the real world.
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Old 10th Sep 2020, 10:53
  #31 (permalink)  
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EZY did initially show 5 flights a week, I wouldn’t take their current schedule planning anything to go by. Remember we are in the middle of something that airlines can’t control, airlines are trying to make money. With borders effectively closed to the U.K. easyJet won’t make money on daily flights
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Old 14th Apr 2021, 16:02
  #32 (permalink)  
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Yes, but if they can't make money they'll not bother. Daily morning and evening flights to Manchester historically only make money on some days and times of the week. That's the nature of it. If you only come when you make money its as useful as the proverbial chocolate fireguard to the community it proports to serve.
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 07:54
  #33 (permalink)  
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Ettyl have Announced the purchase of Stobart Air and Carlisle Airport this morning
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 08:02
  #34 (permalink)  
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Is it public yet as noting on any news feeds?
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 08:07
  #35 (permalink)  
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Apologies, here's the link
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 09:03
  #36 (permalink)  
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The link is not working but I am sure the news will start to filter out across the news networks shortly. Any details on the sale?
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 09:08
  #37 (permalink)  
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Ettyl Limited acquires Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport Following Esken Limited’s announcement to the London Stock Exchange earlier today, Isle of Man-based Ettyl Limited (“Ettyl”) confirms it has signed agreements for its acquisition of Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport from Esken Limited, the aviation and energy infrastructure group, subject to bank consent Stobart Air will continue to operate the existing Aer Lingus Regional franchise that is currently contracted to run through to December 2022 – subject to change of control consent The intention is to retain all staff currently employed by Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport Further announcements regarding Ettyl’s development plans for Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport will be made over the coming weeks and months Commenting on the acquisition, Jason Scales, Managing Director, Ettyl Limited ‘We are delighted to have signed agreements for these acquisitions. In the immediate term it will be very much business as usual in respect of both Stobart Air and Carlisle Lake District Airport’s operations and our deal ensures that the great teams within those businesses are retaine We will be making further announcements over the coming weeks and months regarding our plans. Ettyl sees significant opportunities for increased regional connectivity as economies recover from the impacts caused by the pandemic and return to stability across the UK and Ireland.
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 09:17
  #38 (permalink)  
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Aye, looks like its been taken down.
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 11:22
  #39 (permalink)  
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Looks to be website is being updated says coming soon on main page on website, and info page for buying Stobart Air asking now for login
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Old 19th Apr 2021, 13:36
  #40 (permalink)  
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I know we're living in strange times but ............
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