Pan Am flights to London Gatwick
Wasn't Miami deemed to be some sort of special destination and thus outside the scope of the UK-USA agreement, which then allowed National to start?
I think the DC-10's were a bit later than 1972 - certainly the DC-8's were still operating to LHR in early 1973.
I think the DC-10's were a bit later than 1972 - certainly the DC-8's were still operating to LHR in early 1973.
With regards to the National Airlines DC10 operating on the route. You are correct as National Airlines received the following DC10-30's.
N80NA DC10-30 Delivered June 1973
N81NA DC10-30 Delivered June 1973
N82NA DC10-30 Delivered June 1975
N83NA DC10-30 Delivered June 1975
After doing some research online.
Inaugural flight of a National Airlines DC10-30 on Miami to LHR occurred on the 11 September 1973.
From the 11 September 1973 the route was flown daily by DC10-30.
NA98 MIA 18.30 LHR 07.45 Daily DC10-30
NA99 LHR 10.10 MIA 14.15 Daily DC10-30
Last edited by Sotonsean; 15th Mar 2020 at 17:16.
Although commonly described that there were just two US carriers into Heathrow, Pan Am and TWA, with National making a third just to Miami, until they got rolled into Pan Am, there were others that turned up, with a US approach called an "interchange flight". Because Pan Am was basically only allowed international flights, and the US domestic carriers were not for a long period, and because TWA was allowed both, Pan Am in the 1960s-early 70s developed flights that continued as a domestic flight beyond the US gateway, on the route of a domestic airline. This led not only to Pan Am aircraft turning up at US airports they otherwise did not serve, but also the partner's aircraft turning up at Heathrow. This was all well before these carriers managed to get licences to come to Europe in their own right,
There were several such arrangements, each one seemed to be organised differently for who did what share. Aircraft worked through but crews were always changed at the US gateway, the interchange point.
Delta had the longest standing arrangement, from Atlanta to Washington, then on as a Pan Am flight to London. This one seemed to be 6 months of the year by aircraft of each carrier. It lasted probably for 10 years or so, from the DC8 era into the 747, and led to Delta aircraft of both types turning up at Heathrow. At Pan Am the DC8 dropped out of favour early on, but they kept some on and this was one of their last operations, and in fact some of their others, fully kitted out for international operations of course, were sold to Delta and used on the route. Delta didn't have any 707s and thus no crews for it, so the DC8 had to last until the 747 came along.
Northwest had an arrangement through Detroit onward to Minneapolis, which again went back and forth, this one seemed to be proportionalised by mileage so Pan Am aircraft did most but Northwest turned up on it for certain blocks of time. Northwest had 707s properly configured for their transpacific flights to Asia, so aircraft compatibility was not an issue.
Braniff continued the Pan Am London-Chicago flight on to Dallas and Houston. I never encountered a Braniff aircraft at Heathrow (comments ?) so seems to have always been a Pan Am operation. Unlike the others the round trip could not be achieved in a day so it needed two aircraft. Pan Am had a handful of other operations from Houston, not otherwise connected to their network, so it was operationally convenient for them.
There's a lot more to all this, some flights were continued as Pan Am from London to Frankfurt, you could probably write a chapter on all the variations that happened from year to year.
There were several such arrangements, each one seemed to be organised differently for who did what share. Aircraft worked through but crews were always changed at the US gateway, the interchange point.
Delta had the longest standing arrangement, from Atlanta to Washington, then on as a Pan Am flight to London. This one seemed to be 6 months of the year by aircraft of each carrier. It lasted probably for 10 years or so, from the DC8 era into the 747, and led to Delta aircraft of both types turning up at Heathrow. At Pan Am the DC8 dropped out of favour early on, but they kept some on and this was one of their last operations, and in fact some of their others, fully kitted out for international operations of course, were sold to Delta and used on the route. Delta didn't have any 707s and thus no crews for it, so the DC8 had to last until the 747 came along.
Northwest had an arrangement through Detroit onward to Minneapolis, which again went back and forth, this one seemed to be proportionalised by mileage so Pan Am aircraft did most but Northwest turned up on it for certain blocks of time. Northwest had 707s properly configured for their transpacific flights to Asia, so aircraft compatibility was not an issue.
Braniff continued the Pan Am London-Chicago flight on to Dallas and Houston. I never encountered a Braniff aircraft at Heathrow (comments ?) so seems to have always been a Pan Am operation. Unlike the others the round trip could not be achieved in a day so it needed two aircraft. Pan Am had a handful of other operations from Houston, not otherwise connected to their network, so it was operationally convenient for them.
There's a lot more to all this, some flights were continued as Pan Am from London to Frankfurt, you could probably write a chapter on all the variations that happened from year to year.
I'm glad that you have brought up the topic of the interchange flights operated by Delta and Northwest at LHR in the early 1970's. I knew that it was getting to a point where someone was going to bring it up. There was probably only two or three posters that was going to bring the subject up with yourself included and maybe myself. I was actually contemplating it myself but it's a fairly complicated story to tell but again just like your other posts you have explained the situation in great detail.
Although I'm totally aware of those interchange flights by Delta and Northwest at LHR during that period in time I personally never saw any of their aircraft as it was before my time. I wasn't quite into aviation then, that didn't occur until 1977.
I don't think that Braniff ever visited LHR as part of the interchange agreement as you rightly pointed out.
There are numerous photos online and in particular on Flickr showing the Delta B747's at LHR during that period plus a few of the Northwest B707's.
Not sure of the schedules regarding the Delta and Northwest aircraft but they were more than likely on the ground at LHR at the same time. I wonder if there is a photo somewhere showing the Delta B747, Northwest B707 with a National DC8/B747 alongside the Pan Am and TWA aircraft at LHR Terminal 3. I'd love to see that ☺️
I have to say that the Delta livery looked great on their B747-100's especially at LHR alongside all of the other airlines of that period.
I really think that this thread is better suited in the History and Nostalgia forum as we've gone well past the original topic of Pan Am flights at London Gatwick. But it's been a fascinating thread and I'm enjoying being part of it.
Although I'm totally aware of those interchange flights by Delta and Northwest at LHR during that period in time I personally never saw any of their aircraft as it was before my time. I wasn't quite into aviation then, that didn't occur until 1977.
I don't think that Braniff ever visited LHR as part of the interchange agreement as you rightly pointed out.
There are numerous photos online and in particular on Flickr showing the Delta B747's at LHR during that period plus a few of the Northwest B707's.
Not sure of the schedules regarding the Delta and Northwest aircraft but they were more than likely on the ground at LHR at the same time. I wonder if there is a photo somewhere showing the Delta B747, Northwest B707 with a National DC8/B747 alongside the Pan Am and TWA aircraft at LHR Terminal 3. I'd love to see that ☺️
I have to say that the Delta livery looked great on their B747-100's especially at LHR alongside all of the other airlines of that period.
I really think that this thread is better suited in the History and Nostalgia forum as we've gone well past the original topic of Pan Am flights at London Gatwick. But it's been a fascinating thread and I'm enjoying being part of it.
