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Coronavirus Impact on Air Travel

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Coronavirus Impact on Air Travel

Old 24th Sep 2020, 20:02
  #1701 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
If I’m statistically 5x more likely to catch coronavirus in Manchester than in Crete, why can I go to Manchester and not have to quarantine but I do if I go to Crete?

Other than decimating airlines and jobs further, the quarantine scheme does nothing if community transmission in your own country is high. The benefit is a drop in the ocean, the disadvantage is catastrophic.
Germany found that holidaymakers in holiday mode didn’t do much social distancing while on holiday and brought the virus home. My friend has first hand experience of someone sitting on an aircraft inches apart from strangers spending 2 hours eating a large packet of kettle crisps. As you say they might be sitting next to someone from infected Manchester.

On return to Luton everyone was piled into a single airside bus where he faced another bunch of strangers all hanging onto ceiling straps to stop them falling over. Best not to mention boarding at the gate and passport control.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 07:39
  #1702 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by davidjohnson6 View Post
Denmark, Iceland and (more surprisingly) Slovakia, along with Curacao get the chop this week. No countries added to the 'safe' list
Sweden and Greece survive for another week
It is worth noting that the UK's methodology is not as open and closed as some countries - i.e. if you go over a certain threshold, you're automatically on the red list. They also take into account testing levels, "track and trace" (LOL) system and more intangible intelligence.

I have been monitoring one country in Eastern Europe, as I travel there fairly often, who tested less than 7,000 people yesterday - pathetic levels. Yet they are using a hard threshold of 25 per 100,000 cases in the preceding 14 days. One of their neighbours of whom they have a lot of movement and trade went over this threshold last week, but they were granted a "10% tolerance" which at no stage I believe has been granted to anyone else. Their own country calculations also seem to be at odds with the ECDC numbers, almost seemingly far lower than what the European agency was reporting.

The travel corridors scheme is not exactly succeeding right now - there are around 60-70 countries / territories on the list, but only 9 of these allow UK residents into the country without a negative Covid-19 test or 14 days of self isolation. Meaning these people can come into the UK and not self isolate, but for UK residents they are not given the same treatment. I find visa rules and bilateral arrangements pretty ridiculous in normal times, but with the global immigration system based on this reciprocity, I find the current situation quite nonsensical.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 11:14
  #1703 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
Germany found that holidaymakers in holiday mode didnít do much social distancing while on holiday and brought the virus home. My friend has first hand experience of someone sitting on an aircraft inches apart from strangers spending 2 hours eating a large packet of kettle crisps. As you say they might be sitting next to someone from infected Manchester.

On return to Luton everyone was piled into a single airside bus where he faced another bunch of strangers all hanging onto ceiling straps to stop them falling over. Best not to mention boarding at the gate and passport control.
I canít find a single fact in your post that answers the question, just your (typically negative) opinion and a second hand experience. Hereís a fact for you, German tourists are still allowed to go to many of the destinations we arenít, including Crete. Guess what, Iíve taken six flights since March and have had no problems on any of them.

So I ask again, why should I not be allowed to go to Crete, but Iím allowed to go to Manchester? Or rather, why canít somebody from Crete freely come to my small corona-free village without having to quarantine, but somebody from Manchester can?

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Old 25th Sep 2020, 11:38
  #1704 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
Guess what, Iíve taken six flights since March and have had no problems on any of them.
Could you elaborate on that statement? Do you mean that all those six flights were fully COVID-19 compliant in terms of check-in, through security, at the gate, on the bus to the aircraft (if appropriate), in flight and on arrival at destination etc.? Or did you just mean "I didn't catch anything on any of those six flights so that means there's no risk"?
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 11:40
  #1705 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Expressflight View Post
Could you elaborate on that statement? Do you mean that all those six flights were fully COVID-19 compliant in terms of check-in, through security, at the gate, on the bus to the aircraft (if appropriate), in flight and on arrival at destination etc.? Or did you just mean "I didn't catch anything on any of those six flights so that means there's no risk"?
As far as Iím aware, and Iím far from the COVID police, the former.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 12:50
  #1706 (permalink)  
 
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Domestically... London has now been officially added to the "watch list as an area of concern".
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 15:13
  #1707 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post

So I ask again, why should I not be allowed to go to Crete, but Iím allowed to go to Manchester? Or rather, why canít somebody from Crete freely come to my small corona-free village without having to quarantine, but somebody from Manchester can?
Best to ask the government and not me but to expand the discussion why should someone from Manchester be allowed to travel to Crete and sit for 4 hours next to a stranger while not wearing a mask eating kettle crisps for the duration of the flight?


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Old 25th Sep 2020, 15:59
  #1708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
Best to ask the government and not me but to expand the discussion why should someone from Manchester be allowed to travel to Crete and sit for 4 hours next to a stranger while not wearing a mask eating kettle crisps for the duration of the flight?
The diplomatic answer to that is that theyíre not. The rules are quite clearly outlined to passengers.

The opinionated answer is why shouldnít those who are happy to abide by the rules and/or arenít concerned with this virus be allowed to travel to Crete? Granted if the restriction should lie anywhere, it should be on the Manchester side.

The fact remains that Iím statistically more likely to catch Coronavirus in Manchester than I am in Crete. Yet Iím allowed to freely go in and out of Manchester but I canít go freely in and out of Crete. Thatís nonsensical. And as quoted above, Priti Patel said the timing of the quarantine being introduced was because infection rates were low in this country and high in other places. Now infection rates in this country are high, the quarantine should be scrapped as it holds no benefit. Any cases imported from abroad are a drop in the ocean.

LTNman, if you donít feel safe sitting on an aircraft because youíre worried somebody sitting next to you will be eating kettle chips, thatís your choice. Donít get on an aircraft. But, quite frankly, your opinion isnít important. Many others are happy to get on that aircraft. If you and millions of others used your own judgement to make decisions that in your opinion keep yourself safe, and take responsibility for your own health and well-being, those of us who want to continue to go about our lives will be able to do so. Stay indoors and we canít infect you. Simple.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 16:43
  #1709 (permalink)  
 
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I have only taken one flight since March and all passengers seemed to abide by the rules apart from the rush to de-plane on arrival at Gatwick. The flight wasn't full so I wasn't sat next a stranger with no mask on, and altogether the experience was reasonably pleasant. At no point on the whole journey from check-in, security, boarding did I feel concerned with social distancing etc. As the flight was from an area/country on the UK quarantine list like Spain & Portugal the airlines will struggle to get decent passenger loads.
I sure for every nightmare scenario the LTNman can quote there are plenty of flights and airports that are making the experience as comfortable as possible. Unfortunately the media and scaremongers only pick up on the worst cases, so Joe Public never gets to hear about the good experiences.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 19:49
  #1710 (permalink)  
 
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News today of London being labelled as an "area of concern" with respect to Covid infection. I don't see people on the High Street in my residential suburb of London being particularly more concerned about Covid than beforehand which makes me think stricter measures will end up being introduced. If this becomes a lockdown like Wales, I imagine that London's airports may see pax traffic decliining significantly in November and December

Separately, Switzerland now requires 10 days of quarantine on entry for anybody arriving from the UK, making UK-Switzerland air routes that bit more problematic for airlines

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 25th Sep 2020 at 20:52.
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Old 25th Sep 2020, 23:03
  #1711 (permalink)  
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I would venture the key reason why we do not have the 'fine grain' of different travel destinations and combinations is policing it. Trying to identify that a person arriving from a European country at, say LTN might take a train to Birmingham or drive to Manchester? The current situation is beyond accurate monitoring. Whilst I live in Hertfordshire, I have had to use Gatwick severa times due to destination and availability.

I agree that the Press are hounding the govt and, as they are wedded to the Press, they try to please them. Yet, as I have said before, this is a circumstance that no one had prepared for and everyone is making it up as they go along. We will not know who did best for at least another year and it could be three years before all analysis is complete.

Referencing an earlier point in the thread: LHR Third Runway will never be built.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 06:08
  #1712 (permalink)  
 
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I see Barbados is imposing quarantine restrictions on travellers from the UK while at the same time we impose restrictions on its neighbours.

With the virus once again out of control, particularly in Spain, where mask wearing is compulsory, even when walking in the open, I have to start questioning the effectiveness of masks, as they don’t appear to be making much difference. In the UK the Government stated this many times but was pressured to introduce the mask in certain situations like travel.

It seems the mask is being used as the justification for allowing air travel and while Vokes55 is more than happy to fly, as he sees the risk as minimal and that Crete is a safe island so is a risk he is willing to take, he could still spread the virus from the UK to Crete and to fellow passengers, which he is more than happy to do.

There is no simple answer as we all desire the freedom to travel, some can suppress that urge while others can’t and come up with reasons why they should be allowed to potentially infect others because they want a holiday.

Last edited by LTNman; 26th Sep 2020 at 06:36.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 07:43
  #1713 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
I see Barbados is imposing quarantine restrictions on travellers from the UK while at the same time we impose restrictions on its neighbours.

With the virus once again out of control, particularly in Spain, where mask wearing is compulsory, even when walking in the open, I have to start questioning the effectiveness of masks, as they donít appear to be making much difference. In the UK the Government stated this many times but was pressured to introduce the mask in certain situations like travel.

It seems the mask is being used as the justification for allowing air travel and while Vokes55 is more than happy to fly, as he sees the risk as minimal and that Crete is a safe island so is a risk he is willing to take, he could still spread the virus from the UK to Crete and to fellow passengers, which he is more than happy to do.

There is no simple answer as we all desire the freedom to travel, some can suppress that urge while others canít and come up with reasons why they should be allowed to potentially infect others because they want a holiday.
213 Countries and Territories around the world have this virus installed,the idea you can stop the virus spreading when every country has the virus is mind boggling.As for face masks,after 15mins and you can chuck it in the bin,have a nice weekend.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 09:45
  #1714 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
With the virus once again out of control, particularly in Spain, where mask wearing is compulsory, even when walking in the open, I have to start questioning the effectiveness of masks, as they donít appear to be making much difference. In the UK the Government stated this many times but was pressured to introduce the mask in certain situations like travel.
You can't conclude that masks aren't making much difference because you don't know what the infection rate would have been if masks weren't being worn. It's possible that in such a situation, the infection rate would have been much higher and so masks could be having a beneficial effect.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 10:40
  #1715 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Link Kilo View Post
You can't conclude that masks aren't making much difference because you don't know what the infection rate would have been if masks weren't being worn. It's possible that in such a situation, the infection rate would have been much higher and so masks could be having a beneficial effect.
Press and medical profession were happy to heap scorn on Caprice in March when she was suggesting that UK should wear masks as Singapore / Japan etc had done this in other viral outbreaks. Headline of Lingerie Model v Qualified GP was one of the headlines seen.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 11:11
  #1716 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LTNman View Post
It seems the mask is being used as the justification for allowing air travel and while Vokes55 is more than happy to fly, as he sees the risk as minimal and that Crete is a safe island so is a risk he is willing to take, he could still spread the virus from the UK to Crete and to fellow passengers, which he is more than happy to do.

There is no simple answer as we all desire the freedom to travel, some can suppress that urge while others canít and come up with reasons why they should be allowed to potentially infect others because they want a holiday.
I donít think you get it. If you, and by you I mean you and every other risk averse coronaphobe, donít feel safe then donít get on an aircraft. Then everybody else who is willing to take that risk or doesnít care can get on the aircraft and carry on with their life as usual. Everyone who gets on that aircraft accepts that Ďriskí.

Copy and paste the same for every element of life. You can feel all warm and safe in your own home, whilst the majority of people who just want to return to normality and take that risk can carry on as usual. If I, or anybody else who is happy to accept that risk, contracts coronavirus and dies, so be it.

You seem to be surprised by the fact that some people donít mind risk. Some people climb mountains, some people jump out of aircraft, some people even choose to get on an aircraft during a so-called pandemic. Just because youíre scared witless, doesnít mean everyone else is. I could sit next to somebody eating kettle chips, in the same way I could share the road with a drunk driver on a Saturday night. Itís not going to stop me driving on a Saturday night.

Oh and by the way, I donít want a holiday, I want to keep my job. Given your anti-flying rhetoric, you may have failed to notice that this is a ďProfessional pilotsĒ forum, and whilst Iíve long since accepted that itís more of a spotters forum these days, you canít be surprised that people disagree with your view here.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 11:25
  #1717 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
I donít think you get it. If you, and by you I mean you and every other risk averse coronaphobe, donít feel safe then donít get on an aircraft. Then everybody else who is willing to take that risk or doesnít care can get on the aircraft and carry on with their life as usual. Everyone who gets on that aircraft accepts that Ďriskí.

Copy and paste the same for every element of life. You can feel all warm and safe in your own home, whilst the majority of people who just want to return to normality and take that risk can carry on as usual. If I, or anybody else who is happy to accept that risk, contracts coronavirus and dies, so be it.

You seem to be surprised by the fact that some people donít mind risk. Some people climb mountains, some people jump out of aircraft, some people even choose to get on an aircraft during a so-called pandemic. Just because youíre scared witless, doesnít mean everyone else is. I could sit next to somebody eating kettle chips, in the same way I could share the road with a drunk driver on a Saturday night. Itís not going to stop me driving on a Saturday night.

Oh and by the way, I donít want a holiday, I want to keep my job. Given your anti-flying rhetoric, you may have failed to notice that this is a ďProfessional pilotsĒ forum, and whilst Iíve long since accepted that itís more of a spotters forum these days, you canít be surprised that people disagree with your view here.
Good post

In a newspaper the other day and elderly journalist said "Sure Covid-19 may eventually kill me, but let me enjoy and lead my life until it does"
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 12:41
  #1718 (permalink)  
 
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Well, fair enough, but you need to be sure that you fully understand the risk you are taking and exposing others to. Not surprisingly the main focus has been on the number of deaths caused by C19, but often overlooked are the long-term impacts that a surprisingly large number of people (up to 15% of those with symptoms) suffer and these do not seem to be age-related: brain damage, breathing, kidneys, heart, blood clotting and more. This is because, as we know, C19 uses a spike protein on its surface to latch onto cells’ ACE2 receptors. We still don't know enough about this virus but it is clear that it is a nasty one, far nastier than flu (for which there is a vaccine of course). If you are fully aware of the risks you are taking and that you expose others to then go ahead but don't scoff at those with a more prudent view.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 12:45
  #1719 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Good post

In a newspaper the other day and elderly journalist said "Sure Covid-19 may eventually kill me, but let me enjoy and lead my life until it does"
Exactly. At what point does the number of people dying alone having not seen their family for x months exceed the number of people dying ďwithĒ coronavirus. It probably already has.
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Old 26th Sep 2020, 12:53
  #1720 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Barling Magna View Post
Well, fair enough, but you need to be sure that you fully understand the risk you are taking and exposing others to. Not surprisingly the main focus has been on the number of deaths caused by C19, but often overlooked are the long-term impacts that a surprisingly large number of people (up to 15% of those with symptoms) suffer and these do not seem to be age-related: brain damage, breathing, kidneys, heart, blood clotting and more. This is because, as we know, C19 uses a spike protein on its surface to latch onto cellsí ACE2 receptors. We still don't know enough about this virus but it is clear that it is a nasty one, far nastier than flu (for which there is a vaccine of course). If you are fully aware of the risks you are taking and that you expose others to then go ahead but don't scoff at those with a more prudent view.
Nobody is scoffing at those with a more ďprudentĒ view. People are scoffing at those who insist their view should be inflicted on everybody else. Itís a very 2020 attitude.

All people like me want, aside from keeping our jobs, is the ability to make our own choice and for people to take responsibility of their own health. If thereís a lockdown, nobody has a choice. If thereís not a lockdown, everybody has a choice. Those that are worried can stay indoors. Those that accept the risk can carry on. Government should focus on supporting those who choose to stay indoors, whilst the rest of us keep the economy afloat. Too late for that now of course.
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