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US offers UK inferior open skies deal - FT

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US offers UK inferior open skies deal - FT

Old 9th Mar 2018, 21:11
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I take it you mean the part where O'Leary has used every rule in the book to get the best advantage - money, marketing, ancillary, state, lending rates, grants, etc - whilst turning the screw on everyone that works for him and flies with him...... yep i think I'd be pi$$ed to if id ordered a bunch of aircraft, that were yet to be delivered and I was having to scale back one of my major markets that provided a massive proportion of my $1.4 billion profitability .... His world domination plan will quickly unravel if he loses the UK market by majority.... but like all things - it only be temporary - it all sounds worse than it actually is
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Old 9th Mar 2018, 21:17
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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it only be temporary - it all sounds worse than it actually is
Probably - how much would you bet on it?

Last edited by SWBKCB; 10th Mar 2018 at 08:35.
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Old 9th Mar 2018, 23:08
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Still fascinating that many refuse that Brexit won't have a profound effect on aviation in the UK.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 06:59
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Also fascinating the chap believes Ryanair would unravel if they lost the UK, as though there are no other large markets available
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 17:44
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Tu.114 View Post
Yes, the UK can stay part of the US/EU open skies agreement. It would just need to stay member of the EU in order to do so.

If the UK wishes to leave the EU, this will entail leaving the open sky agrement among many others.
Norway and Switzerland aren't EU members yet aren't they in US EU open skies?
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 17:53
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PDXCWL45 View Post
Norway and Switzerland aren't EU members yet aren't they in US EU open skies?
They are part of the EEA however, something which has taken years for them to achieve and is exactly what the UK want to opt out of.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 17:55
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry View Post
" O'Leary has used every rule in the book to get the best advantage"

You may not like him but that's surely what EVERY businessman should be doing?

If you want to be a saint go into religion................
You miss my point.... everyone has a choice to work for whoever, and having never met the man I certainly have no issues with him... what I do have issues with is someone so loud as him so trying to alter the course of an event that has nothing to do with him and he has no knowledge of in regards to outcome apart from himself and his airline.... he wasn't eligible to vote so should keep his opinions to the EU and voiced from Ireland. Spouting off that the UK will no longer be able to travel on cheap holidays unless his esteemed airline can fulfil them is pretty poor reasoning!

When I talk about his aircraft arriving and it causing a hole... it is because growing UK bases with talent from the UK is easier to manage than from many other EU countries in regards to recruiting and operating under an Irish / EU AOC

Yes there are many countries he can swipe and grow a chunk from, in regards to legacy carriers, but first he has to find the crews that both want to work for him and will want to jump ship from their current employ.

All the crews I've ever worked with since the late 80's are now focussing on quality of life and not pushing FTL to the max - better work life balance!

So finding crews to operate all these aircraft will be harder and tighter from a market that he was / is very reliant upon.... yes its business but I do think there was a more easier way to win than scaremongering!
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 18:06
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerRyan View Post
They are part of the EEA however, something which has taken years for them to achieve and is exactly what the UK want to opt out of.
Interesting times ahead then! Thanks for the answer.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 19:05
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Membership of the EEA requires acceptance of the four principles with include the primary ones of freedom of movement acceptance of single market rules and the primacy of the European Court of Justice as the arbitration authority.
All are counter to the current governments arguments and specifically the demands of Brexiteers.
So no we canít and wonít remain in the current US- EU Openskys arrangements.
Overview:
The vote was a simple binary question.
Brexit will be delivered like it or not but the electorate has NOT been balloted on what form our relationship and partnership will be afterwards.
Thatís entirely down to the Cabinet and Parliament supported by the good works of civil servants foreign and trade offices and numerous trade and standards agencies.
Neither side offered anything like a manifesto of promises or aims but more rather simple sound bites of optimist and somewhat vague ideas.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 19:09
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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I might add the EU-US Aviation Openskys treaty is what might be described as collateral and unintended consequences of the departure from the EU and associated global treaties
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 19:16
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Rutan16, that may well be, but this should have been part of a thorough analysis of the pros and cons of leaving the EU. If one does not perform his Due Diligence before embarking on such a journey, there may well be nasty surprises ahead.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 20:08
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Switzerland is not a member of the EEA!
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 20:08
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Tu114 not disputed I am afraid the leave campaign was more about hearts and minds over economic risks and opportunities , dominated by arguments that were quite tangential to the real issues.
Immigration and indeed associated xenophobia seem won in the north and provinces that have for decades seemingly to suffered under investment (notably from our own government and financial institutions ) compared to the South East for rather simplistic reasons .
Within the Capital other major cities,Scotland and Northern Ireland remain was much preferred choice.
Still we where we are.
Fact is the country is seriously divided pretty much down the middle and imho the question hasnít been settled to anyoneís satisfaction.
Arch Grand Master of Brexit - Nigel even acknowledges this !
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 20:27
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Switzerland is a signatory of the Schengen treaty on borders and freedom of movement rules and has been since 2002 also accepts the supremacy of the European Court of Justice as an arbitration authority and has an effective bilateral treaty that cover a range of trading agreements with access to the single market.
They also contribute to the EU budget for their access something close to 10 billion GB pounds.
Going through those points almost all fail to meet with the Brexit demands and UK governments current redlines
Remain in customs union NO
Remain in the single market NO
Ever sign and enact Schengen NEVER
Continue to accept the ECJ as primary court of arbitration we’ll that one has turned little pink already.
Still we can look forward to being more like Lichtenstein I suppose.
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Old 10th Mar 2018, 22:58
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Still we can look forward to being more like Lichtenstein I suppose.
I'm afraid not. Lichtenstein is a member of the EEA.
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 05:04
  #36 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AerRyan View Post
They are part of the EEA however, something which has taken years for them to achieve and is exactly what the UK want to opt out of.

The EU has made it very clear they'll never do a "Swiss" deal again - apparently every change in the EU or Swiss rules requires a major negotiation

The Norwegian case is acceptable to both sides but means the Norwegians have to accept EU rules on a lot of items, pay a substantial "access fee" and there is still a hard customs border

As is said - the aviation industry is one (and probably the earliest) of the unplanned and unrecognised consequences of leaving..............
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 12:49
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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This article on an anti-Brexit webpage has an interesting interpretation of the catch-22 situation

If UK airlines want to fly within the EU they need to be 51% EU-owned.

For UK airlines to continue enjoying the same access to the US as they currently do under the EU-US Open Skies, they need to be 51% UK-owned.

Unless someone can come up with a way of an airline being 102% owned by both UK and EU entities (I've tried several times, even my terrible maths can't make it work), I'm guessing the simplest solution is to split BA (or IAG?) into two airlines: British Airways (UK) and British Airways (EU).
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 13:21
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ara01jbb View Post
This article on an anti-Brexit webpage has an interesting interpretation of the catch-22 situation

If UK airlines want to fly within the EU they need to be 51% EU-owned.

For UK airlines to continue enjoying the same access to the US as they currently do under the EU-US Open Skies, they need to be 51% UK-owned.

Unless someone can come up with a way of an airline being 102% owned by both UK and EU entities (I've tried several times, even my terrible maths can't make it work), I'm guessing the simplest solution is to split BA (or IAG?) into two airlines: British Airways (UK) and British Airways (EU).
Bad example as I think Iím right in saying that BA donít operate any inter EU routes other than those to/from the UK. Post Brexit as long as some sort of agreement is in place, they wouldnít need an EU branch. Easyjet on the other hand....
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 13:31
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Curious Pax View Post
Bad example as I think Iím right in saying that BA donít operate any inter EU routes other than those to/from the UK. Post Brexit as long as some sort of agreement is in place, they wouldnít need an EU branch. Easyjet on the other hand....
Yes, however ba are currently ďmainlandĒ eu owned what with IAG being a Spanish company. So at the least they would need to separate off the long-haul operation to satisfy the US and possibly othe states as well. Of course they could sell the entire airline to a UK owner.
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Old 11th Mar 2018, 14:40
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Daysleeper the ownership rules are minutiae, and does nothing but distract from the fact the post Brexit UK will not comply with regulatory terms and conditions necessary and enacted in the current EU- US Openskys treaties period stop.

The UK must either significantly change modify or other wise drop many of the Red Lines demanded by Brexiteers or must now start and negotiate a unique US-UK bilateral with some urgency and it ainít going to be easy or as free as the current treaty imho.

Go have a look at the history of UK-US treaty negotiations pre the EU stepping in .

There was huge intransigence on both sides and many of those same issues remain unresolved especially from the UK point of view.

Ownership limits and cabotage are and have been primary objectives of the UK side indeed these form part of the long dismissed phase two of the current treaty discussions reneged on by the US having secured their primary goal of virtually unlimited access to Heathrow and that was considered the UK primary bargaining tool.

A new UK-US bilateral is going to be far from easy and certainly not a simple letter head and stamping operation.
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