Isle of Man-2
Join Date: Nov 2014
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I actually agree with Cumbrianboy.
Leaving the market open to the commercial world isn't necessarily a good thing for an island or rural community. As private commercial airlines need to realise direct profits, this can lead to high fares, unreliable services, chopping and changing routes to suit etc.
Similar to Guernsey, I'd like to see an economic enabler flying the manx flag, i.e state backed airline or PSO subsidy for example. The right fleet (e.g mix of ATR 42 / 72 turboprops) serving the Islands' needs. Regular daily flights, good connections with codeshare partners. The airline might well make a profit if done right however the majority of the profit will be realised elsewhere in the economy. At the end of the day you've got to look at the overall net gain for the economy, commercial airlines can't do this.
As an aside, from a passenger experience point of view, to be honest I hate low cost carriers flying into regional airports like the IOM, these smaller airports aren't really geared up for that. Easyjet simply creates longer queues at bag drop, security delays and a premature standing queue at the gate in true low cost style. Easyjet passengers then have to be crammed into the relatively small pre-boarding lounge just to enable them to get near an on time departure. Environmentally the medium jets are just too noisy for those living anywhere near the airport and they're actually burning about 4 times the amount of fuel on short haul routes compared to the ATR for example. (You could carry nearly double the amount of passengers on an increased frequency with the ATR for the same carbon footprint). Really like flying with Flybe, turboprops are a much nicer experience on board, much prefer the 2 x 2 seating, feels roomier than an Airbus.
Leaving the market open to the commercial world isn't necessarily a good thing for an island or rural community. As private commercial airlines need to realise direct profits, this can lead to high fares, unreliable services, chopping and changing routes to suit etc.
Similar to Guernsey, I'd like to see an economic enabler flying the manx flag, i.e state backed airline or PSO subsidy for example. The right fleet (e.g mix of ATR 42 / 72 turboprops) serving the Islands' needs. Regular daily flights, good connections with codeshare partners. The airline might well make a profit if done right however the majority of the profit will be realised elsewhere in the economy. At the end of the day you've got to look at the overall net gain for the economy, commercial airlines can't do this.
As an aside, from a passenger experience point of view, to be honest I hate low cost carriers flying into regional airports like the IOM, these smaller airports aren't really geared up for that. Easyjet simply creates longer queues at bag drop, security delays and a premature standing queue at the gate in true low cost style. Easyjet passengers then have to be crammed into the relatively small pre-boarding lounge just to enable them to get near an on time departure. Environmentally the medium jets are just too noisy for those living anywhere near the airport and they're actually burning about 4 times the amount of fuel on short haul routes compared to the ATR for example. (You could carry nearly double the amount of passengers on an increased frequency with the ATR for the same carbon footprint). Really like flying with Flybe, turboprops are a much nicer experience on board, much prefer the 2 x 2 seating, feels roomier than an Airbus.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Wherever the aircraft used starts or finishes they seem to be unable to run the summer late lgw rotation to schedule , the otp the last two summers of that has been woeful at times.
The only route where they seemed to have created a new market is BRS, I hope BFS does the same and would like them to do GLA/EDI in a similar vein.
In my opinion though they are not right for the core routes to London or the Northwest where I think frequency/schedule is more important
The only route where they seemed to have created a new market is BRS, I hope BFS does the same and would like them to do GLA/EDI in a similar vein.
In my opinion though they are not right for the core routes to London or the Northwest where I think frequency/schedule is more important
I think that negates the debated point
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Join Date: May 2008
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"BA / Eastern have reduced the frequency of their LCY-IOM service even up against a LGW service that has less rotations and worse times than its predecessor."
No surprise there. LCY and LGW are very different markets, and LCY is the most expensive airport in the country, particularly when you consider equipment and crew limitations required. IOM passengers don't like expensive; they even complain about the price of the ferry, as though they should be entitled to free transportation simply because they live here. But the cheap and cheerful carriers do not serve the business community (the ones that keep the economy alive) well or at all. That can only have adverse effects for the IOM economy.
No surprise there. LCY and LGW are very different markets, and LCY is the most expensive airport in the country, particularly when you consider equipment and crew limitations required. IOM passengers don't like expensive; they even complain about the price of the ferry, as though they should be entitled to free transportation simply because they live here. But the cheap and cheerful carriers do not serve the business community (the ones that keep the economy alive) well or at all. That can only have adverse effects for the IOM economy.
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How much capacity do easyjet offer? 50% of all passenger numbers?
It's lo co that's propping up the passenger figures.
Business travellers have abandoned the expensive legacy carriers eastern and ba.
If business want to use eastern or ba simply crack on. There's nothing stopping people spending the extrain and travelling on more expensive carriers.
Let those who wish to use was yet do so.
The only ones expanding are easyjet.
Get used to it
It's lo co that's propping up the passenger figures.
Business travellers have abandoned the expensive legacy carriers eastern and ba.
If business want to use eastern or ba simply crack on. There's nothing stopping people spending the extrain and travelling on more expensive carriers.
Let those who wish to use was yet do so.
The only ones expanding are easyjet.
Get used to it
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Yep, precisely, which is one of he reasons I'm going elsewhere and taking my business with me. And there is no doubt I'm not the only one. Without long-term reliable transport links for business passengers, this place will only continue its downward slide.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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The London market has been essentially stagnant since the mid 2000s. At a time when every other market to London has grown (such as Jersey, Guernsey etc as has been pointed out above) the IOM market is stable. easyJet have done NOTHING for this market except stifle growth.
The passenger numbers do not speak for themselves, the IOM passenger market peaked around 2006/2008 and has never recovered since then
the LPL market is actually no bigger now that it ever has been, again easyJet have not done much for that market.
I do understand that leisure passengers (who travel once or twice a year) think easyJet is the best thing since sliced bread, but the reality is they are not. As has been pointed out above, the economy is suffering and business is suffering.
Now the IOM economy is starting to show signs of decline. Now I am not saying this is a direct result of air services, but it is a well know and accepted fact that air services sustain and provide a catalyst to economic development. And the lack of services on the IOM are a contributory factor to the drop in economic activity.
Like I said, for the leisure market (and dare I say it, the spotters) easyJet are fine, but as had been said by me and others above, what the Island wants and what it needs are two different things, and we certainly do not have a well connected Island.
Also, as a point, my comment above about connectivity was not about providing connections, it was was about a high frequency network of direct flights.
If you consider that the IOM once had direct air services to JER, SOU, LBA, NCL, EMA, GLO, LTN, STN you start to see my point
We also used to have at least daily flights to EDI, GLA, BRS and multiple daily flights to BHD.
Now we don't and this is all as a result of open skies and leaving it up to market forces. What we have suits the airlines, it does not serve the Island.
My final point, and then I think I have said all I can on the matter, I think my views are well known, is about LCY. I am confused about the comment that BACF/T3 have reduced the service. As far as I know it is still, and always has been 3 flights a day, and from what I know they are well supported.
The passenger numbers do not speak for themselves, the IOM passenger market peaked around 2006/2008 and has never recovered since then
the LPL market is actually no bigger now that it ever has been, again easyJet have not done much for that market.
I do understand that leisure passengers (who travel once or twice a year) think easyJet is the best thing since sliced bread, but the reality is they are not. As has been pointed out above, the economy is suffering and business is suffering.
Now the IOM economy is starting to show signs of decline. Now I am not saying this is a direct result of air services, but it is a well know and accepted fact that air services sustain and provide a catalyst to economic development. And the lack of services on the IOM are a contributory factor to the drop in economic activity.
Like I said, for the leisure market (and dare I say it, the spotters) easyJet are fine, but as had been said by me and others above, what the Island wants and what it needs are two different things, and we certainly do not have a well connected Island.
Also, as a point, my comment above about connectivity was not about providing connections, it was was about a high frequency network of direct flights.
If you consider that the IOM once had direct air services to JER, SOU, LBA, NCL, EMA, GLO, LTN, STN you start to see my point
We also used to have at least daily flights to EDI, GLA, BRS and multiple daily flights to BHD.
Now we don't and this is all as a result of open skies and leaving it up to market forces. What we have suits the airlines, it does not serve the Island.
My final point, and then I think I have said all I can on the matter, I think my views are well known, is about LCY. I am confused about the comment that BACF/T3 have reduced the service. As far as I know it is still, and always has been 3 flights a day, and from what I know they are well supported.
Join Date: Feb 2009
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The sad reality here is that airlines (even the supposedly national ones) no longer have any interest or obligation to cater to the whims of regional societies. A route either makes money or it doesn't. If it doesn't it becomes history. What I'm hearing is that the island requires a PSO type operation to protect 'vital' links or its own airline. im pretty sure you've had the latter several times (Manx, Euromanx, Citywing/M2) and several based aircraft over the years (Flybe, Arran etc) so that really only leaves the PSO option. Anybody know why there are no PSO arrangements?
Join Date: May 2015
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Cumbrianboy I completely agree with you the island needs strong connectivity with frequent well timed flights throughout the day. Like you I dont really understand the comment about reduced frequency on the BACF LCY route it has three rotations a day, yes this is less than Flybe provided into LGW but LCY has been three rotations for a while except for a brief period where they increased it. For some strange reason people on this forum seem to like to bash BACF when I consider they provide one of the best services to the island certainly the only one from London with 3 rotations on a weekday every day throughout the year. I still maintain if more people supported it BACF would upgrade to the E170, Eastern have one potentially spare after their abhorted experiment into the Shetland Isles. I accept that the BACF fare is higher but if people think a 22GBP flight is sustainable or makes sense then they are dreaming perhaps they should try travelling on a train from north to south on the mainland and see how much that costs!
Also if anyone thinks the answer to serving the island is Easyjet then I suspect they are misguided. For a start during the key summer months they reduce down to one rotation a day into LGW on some days and thats late in the day so anyone wanting to get off the island will not arrive into central London until around 11.30pm at best, most likely gone midnight factoring in for frequent delays.
And if anybody thinks Easyjet offer good value just take a look at the price they are charging for getting off the island one way between Christmas and New Year at 175GBP!
Also if anyone thinks the answer to serving the island is Easyjet then I suspect they are misguided. For a start during the key summer months they reduce down to one rotation a day into LGW on some days and thats late in the day so anyone wanting to get off the island will not arrive into central London until around 11.30pm at best, most likely gone midnight factoring in for frequent delays.
And if anybody thinks Easyjet offer good value just take a look at the price they are charging for getting off the island one way between Christmas and New Year at 175GBP!
Join Date: Nov 2015
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Easyjet don't provide an ideal London service from a time perspective. However, leisure passengers don't really care all that much as they can get much cheaper prices if they plan ahead then they could previously. Those flights appear to be packed largely with leisure passengers. Leisure passengers have other options for connecting to Europe (Manchester or Liverpool) or further afield (Manchester).
As far as business travel goes, the business that I work for has been progressively tightening travel budgets to save money over the last 10/15 years. That's common across many IoM businesses. Many of the islands businesses are now under much tighter regulation than they used to be which comes at a price. There is a race to the bottom now in terms of the costs of services provided to end customers. All of that leads to a decreased need for overall volumes of business travel. We no longer have the same level of need to travel as frequently as we once did.
Where we do travel, we no longer want to pay prices that once kept multiple frequency flights running per day to London where there are half empty planes (as was often the case to Gatwick with FlyBe). The government clearly doesn't have money to burn to chuck into subsidising flights on our behalf as an alternative.
There's still a need to have people in and out of London in one day and we still use London City for that with few issues. If we need to connect to other parts of the country then we'll commonly use Manchester. If we need connecting flights non-UK then we use any of Manchester, London City and Gatwick. The flight times aren't always perfect but we generally don't have much difficulty booking flights that get us where we need to be.
I accept that there are a small minority of companies/individuals on the island who need to travel regularly and at different frequencies. But they're in a minority and our island only has the population of a small to medium sized town in the UK.
Join Date: May 2015
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Manx I agree that the 175GBP is for one day in that week and yes its likely to be one of the last few tickets available. My point is Easyjet are not always that cheap they are more than happy to charge silly fares if they can. And the reason that has happened is because there is insufficient supply over the Christmas and New Year period and that puts up the prices. More evidence of not serving the island community if you ask me!
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Now living in the IOM... no complaints over the air links so far. One thing you learn with travelling on business now, you don't care for specific flight times as much as maybe once you did.... you just deal with what's available and plan appropriately. That's what I have come to expect with low cost travel...
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lfc84 I can assure I am a regular traveller although I choose to fly from LCY using BACF as its a far better timed service I can leave the island on the 7am flight and be in central London before 9am! No chance ever with Easyjet. Yes you can book a flexi fare if you so want to play around with dates and follow their rules but even then you are paying 90gbp one way which is hardly the low fares people believe Easy Jet offer!
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My point is simply that business pax can crack on and use the higher frequency BA / Eastern flights and leisure pax can use the orange jets.
If people want to fly U2 because it is actually or perceived as cheaper then let them do so.
If there's a market / profit for BA or Eastern to operate a 7am service then it will continue irrespective of a U2 flight arriving at 2300.
Each to their own.
If people want to fly U2 because it is actually or perceived as cheaper then let them do so.
If there's a market / profit for BA or Eastern to operate a 7am service then it will continue irrespective of a U2 flight arriving at 2300.
Each to their own.
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It’s not true to say only business pax fly to LCY and LGW is leisure only. On my trips to the IOM, the LCY has been a decent mix. If EZY win too many leisure pax at the expense of BA then business lose the frequent link. They don’t exist in isolation by any means.