Isle of Man-2

[Harry Wayfarers]

Originally Posted by Plane.Silly

If there could only be a happy medium of frequent flights on smaller aircraft. Shame EZY dont operate any 50-100 seaters, coupled with the cheaper fares than Eastern; that'd be perfect

If there was money to be made on multiple 50-100 seaters per day then surely Flybe would be in there like a shot.

Alas it seems the days of maunfacturing niche route puddle jumpers are gone, OK the Do228 and BN2 remain in production, the DHC6 has been revived, runours of the Do328 being revived, alas it seems the modern day aircraft are too large too serve these niche routes without a government subsidy which seems kind of crazy!

[SWBKCB]

It's the "Why do I have to pay more than £9.99?" brigade, who haven't heard of the phrase "time is money"

[milleriom]

Originally Posted by M-JCS

But cumbrianboy's comments remain true. The IOM economy needs good and reliable business connections. Not the occasional cheap flight for the leisure crowd. If EZY cannibalises the Eastern connection, it doesn't do the IOM any good at all. Quite the contrary.

Yes, obviously we do need good and reliable business connections but I disagree strongly in this case with your unfair slant:
a) Belfast is not important in regard to business connections. Clearly you don't know how few Northern Ireland based businesses operate here and vice versa. Almost none, for example, in the key Financial and Gaming sectors.
b) Eastern have not only been charging exorbitant sums, such as would make any Finance Department's eyes water, but their frequencies and timings are close to useless for business travel as well. Have you actually checked the timetables?
c) Belfast and all of Northern Ireland can also be reached via Dublin + a fast train or an express bus. For business people it can easily be reached by flying via Liverpool with lots of flights and often at vastly lower cost. I can provide numerous examples of this and lots of people, including business people especially via Liverpool, are doing that already.
d) In mentioning ''good.... connections'' I realise that you mean timings and frequencies. But again you are in a dreamland because the demand on this route is tiny and it was so even in the days of Citywing who were down to 3 rotations per day in later years with a capacity of only 19 seats per flight and on very noisy uncomfortable aircraft that should never have been allowed to fly in the British Isles.
e) Speaking of comfort, which is important to most of the business market that you refer to, no-one really wants to fly on an old Eastern Saab.
f) Visitor nos are very important to both the Northern Ireland and Isle of Man economies. Eastern are not adding much to either with such low capacity and the lack of weekend services but Easyjet will do add a lot of visitors in both locations. That will increase yet further if this new service frequency increases and perhaps even goes daily. I believe that the plan is for it also to be all-year-round beyond October next year.
g) We live, thank goodness, in a democratic and free market economy. The PEOPLE decide what they wish to buy and at what price and those who provide that survive and those who don't do not.

Perhaps you have some sort of a connection to Eastern or a particular reason to be so positive about them and so favourably disposed towards them. And so unjustifiably negative about EasyJet.

Maybe you are driven by nothing more than pure wishful thinking for a non existent world in which you have perfect frequencies, capacities and timings on all routes - even on very low demand ones. That way lies guaranteed failure of course so hopefully you have no role in the financial management of any airline!

It is a nonsense to bemoan the competition provided by EasyJet on any route at all. In 2016 they served 63.257 million generally satisfied customers very well indeed and that includes vast numbers of business people too both on the island and throughout the UK and much of Europe.

[lfc84]

people should stop moaning

[EMX81L]

Loganair have a nice little addition for TT2018.

25MAY - 10JUN (Operating Friday and Sunday)
Isle of Man - Norwich

[lfc84]

i received an email with a notification of a reply, but the reply has gone.

it was a really good post !

[M-JCS]

Actually milleriom, I have no connection to Eastern, though I am involved in finance, and there is significant financial business to be had in Northern Ireland, whether you like to think so or not. The kind of business this island desperately needs, rather than the cheap tourism you seem to espouse.
One thing I am not is impressed by shiny new EZ aeroplanes with somebody else's lunch left on my seat, and running hours behind schedule, if at all, flying at times and to places I don't need. But then I'm not a pensioner and I depend upon good, reliable business connections without repetitive transfers to get where I need to go in the world. You might do well read SWBKCB's comment above.

[Thad Jarvis]

I don't recall anyone in Easyjet saying this is being marketed as a business route. The timings reflect and developmental leisure operation. If successful you might see it going daily but not double daily. Besides there would be insufficient demand for a double daily 319/20 to BFS.
I can't see the problem here. The business community can continue to blow hundreds on Eastern's little turboprop if they wish but the influx of leisure traffic can only be good for the island - unless you have something against tourists.
When citywing run the service they had a realistic pricing structure that catered for both. Eastern have no interest in the average leisure passenger.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Originally Posted by milleriom

e) Speaking of comfort, which is important to most of the business market that you refer to, no-one really wants to fly on an old Eastern Saab.

I believe that the Saab2000 remains the world's most advanced fly-by-wire turboprop, I travelled in them many a time, rode the jumpseat one or a few times, there's even a window in the crapper to watch the world go by as one is having a .... , a lovely piece of kit and a shame that Saab gave up civil aircraft production.

Now just read and learn of my location, are you going to accuse me of being affiliated with Eastern also?

[El Bunto]

The window in the toilet of the 2000 was requested by the boss of Crossair so that his passengers could enjoy the Swiss scenery whilst engaged. Not related to the IOM thread but always stuck in my head.

[rob39]

Originally Posted by milleriom

d) In mentioning ''good.... connections'' I realise that you mean timings and frequencies. But again you are in a dreamland because the demand on this route is tiny and it was so even in the days of Citywing who were down to 3 rotations per day in later years with a capacity of only 19 seats per flight and on very noisy uncomfortable aircraft that should never have been allowed to fly in the British Isles.

I actually flew on the Let410's yes noisey but perfect for the market Citywing targeted and felt perfectly safe in them, I knew many of the pilots who were very professional in their duties and the aircraft were regularly maintained. Out of europe yes they are less reliable and possibly down right dangerous. IMO

[lfc84]

Originally Posted by rob39

I actually flew on the Let410's yes noisey but perfect for the market Citywing targeted and felt perfectly safe in them, I knew many of the pilots who were very professional in their duties and the aircraft were regularly maintained. Out of europe yes they are less reliable and possibly down right dangerous. IMO

this is the same citywing that had to rename themselves from manx2

anyway. the future is bright. it's orange.

i think eastern have a J41 scheduled on the BHD-IOM route

[milleriom]

BELFAST - IOM CONNECTIONS

Originally Posted by M-JCS

Actually milleriom, I have no connection to Eastern, though I am involved in finance, and there is significant financial business to be had in Northern Ireland, whether you like to think so or not. The kind of business this island desperately needs, rather than the cheap tourism you seem to espouse.
One thing I am not is impressed by shiny new EZ aeroplanes with somebody else's lunch left on my seat, and running hours behind schedule, if at all, flying at times and to places I don't need. But then I'm not a pensioner and I depend upon good, reliable business connections without repetitive transfers to get where I need to go in the world. You might do well read SWBKCB's comment above.

There may be significant business to be had in Northern Ireland but I have to ask why has it not happened when we had plenty of direct flights with big capacities, great value fares and perfect Business timings for very, very many years past? I do not think Northern Ireland is one of our key connections nor do I believe it ever will be.

Furthermore, although you dismiss / greatly underestimate the value of visitors nos to the island, the facts are that they are a key part of a diversified island economy and EasyJet are the biggest support plank in that whole area and are growing our visitor nos when every other air service to and from the island has ceased trading, withdrawn or significantly reduced capacities and frequencies. Easyjet's Liverpool, Gatwick and Bristol services are key to the survival of most services with decent aircraft, capacities and frequencies.

Where the frequencies of EasyJet are not good enough for some business people, they can reach almost anywhere with 3 times a day excellent business-orientated timings via LCY using BA CityFlyer (which is ironically still operated by Eastern for them on an old wet-leased unreliable SAAB 2000).

The fact is that we are where we now are and EasyJet is the dominant player. Bemoaning the loss of a thin schedule on one route on a small aircraft
is not going to change any facts-on-the-ground.

BTW, I did read SWBKCB's post - I am a very senior professional and reading and understanding all the detail is the key plank of my skill-set!

As I am really busy just now and I am going to be away for most of the next 3 months on mixed purpose domestic UK and long-haul travels, I shall withdraw quietly from this thread and the forum having made points about which I felt strongly enough to actually post something here (despite being a very, very rare poster of anything, anywhere at all).

Best wishes to all for a very Happy Christmas and New Year and a very healthy, happy and successful 2018 - I hope that next year brings you all that you wish for.

Milleriom

[milleriom]

Originally Posted by Thad Jarvis

I don't recall anyone in Easyjet saying this is being marketed as a business route. The timings reflect and developmental leisure operation. If successful you might see it going daily but not double daily. Besides there would be insufficient demand for a double daily 319/20 to BFS.
I can't see the problem here. The business community can continue to blow hundreds on Eastern's little turboprop if they wish but the influx of leisure traffic can only be good for the island - unless you have something against tourists.
When citywing run the service they had a realistic pricing structure that catered for both. Eastern have no interest in the average leisure passenger.

+1
Thank you very much for this. I used a lot more words to say the same as you in a most inferior way!

[cumbrianboy]

The point here is not about whether eastern will remain on the BHD route, it is far wider reaching.

easyJet have destoryed the connectivity to the Island.

EasyJet will do what suits easyJet and they have no vested interest in the IOM. I am well aware that fares can be prohibitive but that is a separate issue. The problem is, easyJet are a commercial organisation and will do what suits easyJet. We saw this last summer when they reduced the LTN flights during the peak season to use the aircraft elsewhere.

Let me say, I have huge respect for easyJet and think they are an amazing airline, BUT they are the WRONG airline for the Isle of Man.

Air services to the Isle of Man can not be treated the same as a new easyJet route from LPL to Spain for example. easyJet serving the IOM are not giving people a nice option for a summer holiday or giving people a chance to go and see Auntie Joan for the weekend.

Air services on the IOM are lifeline routes, The Island DEPENDS on them. Not just for tourism, but for the economic and social well being of the island.

The problem when you put these absolutely essential services in the hands of commerical operators is that the Island suffers, and is suffering due to lack of connectivity, and it has no security over the long term and no guarantee of service. What if (a big IF but a risk none the less) easyJet decide to withdraw from the IOM - what then??

I am not saying easyJet are not a good thing, they have many advantages, and in most cases I am their biggest fan, but I genuinely believe that the IOM needs to do things differently, and it needs government intervention. I realise this is unlikely to happen but it doesn't change the basic fact that it should.

Like I said, Gatwick, used to be 4 flights a day, not some days it is only 1 a day, and on others the times are woefully inadequate.

Belfast, will most likely now end up twice a week.

All the direct points we used to have are now a much longed after thing of the past.

The recent report on Aurigny makes for interesting reading, and it comes back to my original point, that for a small island community air services need to be viewed as lifelines and part of the national infrastructure and not as profit centres.

[lfc84]

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

The point here is not about whether eastern will remain on the BHD route, it is far wider reaching.

easyJet have destoryed the connectivity to the Island.

in terms of connectivity - eastern aren't any better. no connections.
easyjet now offer connecting flights on thier website.
flybe ofer connecting flights - but to fewer destinations.
ba offer connections but majority need a change of airport.
aer lingus offer connections but only to a tiny number of destinations on their network without using a trael agent.

so i disagree that easyjet have destroyed connectivity.

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

EasyJet will do what suits easyJet and they have no vested interest in the IOM. I am well aware that fares can be prohibitive but that is a separate issue. The problem is, easyJet are a commercial organisation and will do what suits easyJet. We saw this last summer when they reduced the LTN flights during the peak season to use the aircraft elsewhere.


Let me say, I have huge respect for easyJet and think they are an amazing airline, BUT they are the WRONG airline for the Isle of Man.

look at easyjet fares - much, much lower than anyone else operating to London. they could arguably double what they charge - but to be fair - they don't.

without easyjet pasenger numbers would have collapsed.

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

Air services to the Isle of Man can not be treated the same as a new easyJet route from LPL to Spain for example. easyJet serving the IOM are not giving people a nice option for a summer holiday or giving people a chance to go and see Auntie Joan for the weekend.

Air services on the IOM are lifeline routes, The Island DEPENDS on them. Not sure for tourism, but for the economic and social well being of the island.



The problem when you put these absolutely essential services in the hands of commerical operators is that the Island suffers, and is suffering due to lack of connectivity.

all of the airlines are commercial operators. that's how it should be.

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

I am not saying easyJet are not a good thing, they have many advantages, and in most cases I am their biggest fan, but I genuinely believe that the IOM needs to do things differently, and it needs government intervention. I realise this is unlikely to happen but it doesn't change the basic fact that it should.

Like I said, Gatwick, used to be 4 flights a day, not some days it is only 1 a day, and on others the times are woefully inadequate.

Belfast, will most likely now end up twice a week.

doesn't the fact that the other operators who chose to run 4 sectors each and every day are gone or are struggling tell you anything ?

it indicates to me that the model easyjet use is successful.

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

All the direct points we used to have are now a much longed after thing of the past.

such as ?

Originally Posted by cumbrianboy

The recent report on Aurigny makes for interesting reading, and it comes back to my original point, that for a small island community air services need to be viewed as lifelines and part of the national infrastructure and not as profit centres.

Look at jersey....! more airlines, more routes, more passengers and more people than IOM.

that's what the IOM should be aiming for !

[M-JCS]

In the end airlines, especially for island communities, are an essential part of the transport infrastructure, as cumbrianboy says. The problem is people have forgotten that since LCC's started selling tickets as though they are selling rides at the carnival.
By the way, EZ "connectivity" means you can buy 2 separate flights on conveniently timed flights. That is not the same as a through ticket by any stretch of the imagination.

[pabely]

Like I said, Gatwick, used to be 4 flights a day, not some days it is only 1 a day, and on others the times are woefully inadequate.

Remember slots, these are expensive and hard to come by at Gatwick.
Flybe sold theirs on. EZY likes to run 85%+ full so adding a 2 or 3 rotation a day, would it achieve that load factor? The Gatwick aircraft, I believe come from Scottish bases, go down to LGW then do IOM then some Med routes, before back to IOM.
More likely to get more capacity to Luton, although I have not looked at last summer's pax figures.
I think BA sum it up well, use it or loose it!

[lfc84]

Originally Posted by pabely

The Gatwick aircraft, I believe come from Scottish bases, go down to LGW then do IOM then some Med routes, before back to IOM.

what makes you think these are Scottish based aircraft?

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/u2853

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/u2855/

none of the registrations start their day in Scotland for the past week

[manx crab]

Wherever the aircraft used starts or finishes they seem to be unable to run the summer late lgw rotation to schedule , the otp the last two summers of that has been woeful at times.

The only route where they seemed to have created a new market is BRS, I hope BFS does the same and would like them to do GLA/EDI in a similar vein.

In my opinion though they are not right for the core routes to London or the Northwest where I think frequency/schedule is more important