TUI Airways

[Vokes55]

Jet2 also have spare aircraft lying around all over the country, an unsustainable business model long term with newer, more expensive aircraft now in the fleet.

Continuing off-topic as this thread has become the "TUI Airways delays" thread, easyJet cancelled over 100 flights into and out of Gatwick between last Thursday and Sunday due to and as a knock on from the thunderstorms on Thursday evening. TUI delayed one flight from Thursday until Friday. And this is what happens when easyJet cancel your flight

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...anded-18791716

For more "unacceptable", than a few 24 hour delays every season.

[TSR2]

Vokes 55

Don't think anyone is disputing this.

[2Para]

Originally Posted by Vokes55

Jet2 also have spare aircraft lying around all over the country, an unsustainable business model long term with newer, more expensive aircraft now in the fleet.

Continuing off-topic as this thread has become the "TUI Airways delays" thread, easyJet cancelled over 100 flights into and out of Gatwick between last Thursday and Sunday due to and as a knock on from the thunderstorms on Thursday evening. TUI delayed one flight from Thursday until Friday. And this is what happens when easyJet cancel your flight

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...anded-18791716

For more "unacceptable", than a few 24 hour delays every season.

would you not rather have a spare 'standby' aircraft hanging about than incurring compensation claims?

[JonnyH]

Originally Posted by Vokes55

Jet2 also have spare aircraft lying around all over the country, an unsustainable business model long term with newer, more expensive aircraft now in the fleet.

Continuing off-topic as this thread has become the "TUI Airways delays" thread, easyJet cancelled over 100 flights into and out of Gatwick between last Thursday and Sunday due to and as a knock on from the thunderstorms on Thursday evening. TUI delayed one flight from Thursday until Friday. And this is what happens when easyJet cancel your flight

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...anded-18791716

For more "unacceptable", than a few 24 hour delays every season.

But that is exactly where you’re wrong. Jet2 DO have a sustainable business model which is outdoing TUI & TCX. I would much rather be a Jet2 passenger than a TUI passenger this summer that is for sure!

It is all good and well saying Easyjet cancel flights, BA do etc but that isn’t a direct comparison in my opinion. TUI have had things out of their control, such as the MAX issues, and, you’re right, they don’t cancel flights but this still doesn’t change the fact from a customer service perspective that they have been poor with some really bad delays. Customers choose two things: service and cost.

[Vokes55]

Originally Posted by 2Para

would you not rather have a spare 'standby' aircraft hanging about than incurring compensation claims?

TUI do have standby aircraft. Officially, a 757 and a 787-9. They just don't have one at every base, and with the Max issues and the wet lease operations' reliability a mixed bag, they're far more active than the company would want.

Originally Posted by JonnyH

But that is exactly where you’re wrong. Jet2 DO have a sustainable business model which is outdoing TUI & TCX. I would much rather be a Jet2 passenger than a TUI passenger this summer that is for sure!

Jet2 don't have 9 (plus additional group aircraft) aircraft grounded at short notice for reasons outside of their control. Having spare aircraft lying around and aircraft doing one rotation per day is sustainable whilst they are cheap and/or owned. Once the 757s and -300s have disappeared, and the majority of the fleet is made up of factory fresh or relatively new NGs, this model becomes unsustainable. Note that they don't have a full time standby aircraft at STN, as this base is made up completely of new deliveries - also notice how the majority of their "great flight times" out of STN are now 6am departures and 2-3am arrivals like the rest of the industry. New aircraft cost money and need to be flying to be profitable.

But actually I have nothing against Jet2. Merely stating that their punctuality is assisted by the fact they have many standby aircraft dotted around, which is unsustainable long term.

Originally Posted by JonnyH

It is all good and well saying Easyjet cancel flights, BA do etc but that isn’t a direct comparison in my opinion.

Yes it is. Whether a passenger flies with easyJet, BA, TUI or Bongo Bongo Airlines, their intention is to get from one place to another. easyJet and BA cancel flights and leave you with the option to rebook on the next available flight or get a full refund. If the next available flight is in a week, that's your holiday ruined, and there's a good chance you wont recoup all of your consequential losses either. TUI don't cancel the flight, and whilst sometimes their customer service in such scenarios may fall short, I'd far rather lose one day of my holiday than all of it.

Originally Posted by TSR2

Don't think anyone is disputing this.

Evidently you do, because the punctuality statistics that you quoted don't include cancellations. I could start Air Vokes, put 20 flights on sale, cancel 19 and operate one on time and, voila, 100% punctuality.

[TSR2]

So you are disputing stats published by a recognised source. This conversation started because it was stated Jet2 cancel flights which is not true. It was you that moved the conversation to 'TUI Airways Delay'.

[JonnyH]

Originally Posted by Vokes55

TUI do have standby aircraft. Officially, a 757 and a 787-9. They just don't have one at every base, and with the Max issues and the wet lease operations' reliability a mixed bag, they're far more active than the company would want.



Jet2 don't have 9 (plus additional group aircraft) aircraft grounded at short notice for reasons outside of their control. Having spare aircraft lying around and aircraft doing one rotation per day is sustainable whilst they are cheap and/or owned. Once the 757s and -300s have disappeared, and the majority of the fleet is made up of factory fresh or relatively new NGs, this model becomes unsustainable. Note that they don't have a full time standby aircraft at STN, as this base is made up completely of new deliveries - also notice how the majority of their "great flight times" out of STN are now 6am departures and 2-3am arrivals like the rest of the industry. New aircraft cost money and need to be flying to be profitable.

But actually I have nothing against Jet2. Merely stating that their punctuality is assisted by the fact they have many standby aircraft dotted around, which is unsustainable long term.



Yes it is. Whether a passenger flies with easyJet, BA, TUI or Bongo Bongo Airlines, their intention is to get from one place to another. easyJet and BA cancel flights and leave you with the option to rebook on the next available flight or get a full refund. If the next available flight is in a week, that's your holiday ruined, and there's a good chance you wont recoup all of your consequential losses either. TUI don't cancel the flight, and whilst sometimes their customer service in such scenarios may fall short, I'd far rather lose one day of my holiday than all of it.



Evidently you do, because the punctuality statistics that you quoted don't include cancellations. I could start Air Vokes, put 20 flights on sale, cancel 19 and operate one on time and, voila, 100% punctuality.

I don’t think this is an argument that anyone can win against you!

However, Jet2 do still take second hand aircrafts into their fleet, they’ve got plans to do this now. That is a fact. Therefore, for you to say their model isn’t sustainable I can say confidently you are wrong. You have an opinion that you’re right but I strongly disagree. Jet2 are strongly outgrowing their competitors within the leisure market and they’ve got strong accounts. That to me shows a growing and sustainable airline. It is ever changing market but I would be quite confident, like I’m sure they are too, that their model will continue to work.

You also need to have a look at the facts when a flight is cancelled. You mention losses you cannot recoup from cancelled flights. I think you need to have a look at the EU directive and the fact customers can recoup accommodation and other associated costs. It’s irrelevant whether the flight is delayed or cancelled. The chances are if you’re on a cancelled flight, especially with BA/Easyjet, you’d get to your destination in the same amount of time as a TUI delayed flight this summer - 24 and 48 hour delays have been common. Obviously there are unique circumstances where things can be different.

I’m not going to get involved in a long winded debate, it’s fine to have an opinion, but I disagree with you.

Can I ask, out of curiosity, do you work for TUI?

[Vokes55]

Originally Posted by TSR2

So you are disputing stats published by a recognised source. This conversation started because it was stated Jet2 cancel flights which is not true. It was you that moved the conversation to 'TUI Airways Delay'.

​​​​​​​Well do the stats include cancellations or not?

[Vokes55]

Originally Posted by JonnyH

I don’t think this is an argument that anyone can win against you!

However, Jet2 do still take second hand aircrafts into their fleet, they’ve got plans to do this now. That is a fact. Therefore, for you to say their model isn’t sustainable I can say confidently you are wrong. You have an opinion that you’re right but I strongly disagree. Jet2 are strongly outgrowing their competitors within the leisure market and they’ve got strong accounts. That to me shows a growing and sustainable airline. It is ever changing market but I would be quite confident, like I’m sure they are too, that their model will continue to work.

You also need to have a look at the facts when a flight is cancelled. You mention losses you cannot recoup from cancelled flights. I think you need to have a look at the EU directive and the fact customers can recoup accommodation and other associated costs. It’s irrelevant whether the flight is delayed or cancelled. The chances are if you’re on a cancelled flight, especially with BA/Easyjet, you’d get to your destination in the same amount of time as a TUI delayed flight this summer - 24 and 48 hour delays have been common.

I’m not going to get involved in a long winded debate, it’s fine to have an opinion, but I disagree with you.

I can speak from personal experience that I did not recoup all of the consequential losses from a cancelled flight with BA, and this was a cancellation that fell under EU/261 - anything weather or ATC related (or if the airline can somehow claim it is weather or ATC related, even if it isn't) and you don't stand a chance. Your travel insurance probably won't cover consequential loss either. And if you honestly believe that BA/easyJet have 200+ spare seats on holiday routes within 24-48 hours in the height of summer, you're naive at best.

I'd also disagree that "24 and 48 hour delays have been common". They haven't been "common" at all, that's a misconception generated by FR24 obsessed spotters contributing to this thread. easyJet have cancelled more flights out of Gatwick today (6) than there have been 24+ hour TUI delays out of Gatwick all Summer (2). I can't speak for other bases as I don't have the statistics, but one or two 24+ delays per week on a program of over 1500 flights per week is hardly "common".

As for Jet2, used 737NGs are still more expensive than owned 757s and 737-300s, which cost diddly squat to keep on the ground. Your opinion on the rest of the airline's model is respected, but ultimately irrelevant to the conversation.

[TSR2]

Vokes 55,

How the hell would I know ?

But you seem to know better.

[inOban]

AIUI, Jet2 used to be almost entirely a summer operation, using older 737s, either -300 or -800 which could be acquired quite cheaply. They still use these older -800s, but now that the winter holiday market has grown so much, they can finance the purchase and year-round operation of newer NG versions.
Seems an eminently sustainable business.

[JonnyH]

Originally Posted by inOban

AIUI, Jet2 used to be almost entirely a summer operation, using older 737s, either -300 or -800 which could be acquired quite cheaply. They still use these older -800s, but now that the winter holiday market has grown so much, they can finance the purchase and year-round operation of newer NG versions.
Seems an eminently sustainable business.

I completely agree. Dart have made Jet2 a completely sustainable business outbattling their competitors. Obviously it’s an ever changing industry but they’re coping better than TUI etc IMHO.

[daz211]

Having worked for both TUI and Jet2, I would have to say Jet2 is now the “Charter” Airline of choice.
TUI, in my honest opinion, lost its premier No 1 position in the UK holiday market when it lost the Britannia brand and started a whirlwind journey of name changes, not only did TUI lose its identity, it lost a loyal following of passengers.
Jet2 has shot ahead in the rankings, I would say Jet2 offers much more than any other in terms of the whole package and have become the first choice for passengers looking for packages and flight only, even taking into account they are often more expensive.

[v812]

I worked for TUI for over 20 years and went on many of their holidays. Recently I had 2 holidays with Jet2 and couldn't fault them with excellent accommodation and on time flights. They were considerably cheaper than TUI and I now feel they are the best choice for short-haul holidays.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

TUI is a proper globalist bland, er I mean brand.
jet2.com is proper Wetherspoons and blue collar, and I mean that in a really good way.
Should never have dropped the “Britannia” branding, they’ve been inconsistent in branding terms for 20 years!

[ROC10]

I flew on G-TAWO recently, and whilst boarding, I noticed that the words “Operated by Thomson Airways” were to the right of the forward door.

I found this a bit surprising, considering they have been officially called TUI Airways since late 2017. I flew on this same aircraft in January and can’t remember seeing this (although it may well have been there).

It actually made me wonder whether this is legally/technically incorrect or am I overthinking it? Regardless, I feel it should probably have been removed/updated by this point, unless they are reverting to an official name of Thomson Airways (seems very unlikely)?

[JonnyH]

Originally Posted by Vokes55

Also worth noting that TUI don’t cancel flights like every other airline.

They’ve decided to cancel some flights from BHX in a few weeks time - definitely to DLM and HER. Don’t know if any other routes or bases are affected.

i can only assume it’s to do with lack of aircraft, as they’re citing “operational reasons”, but it’s quite short notice if you’ve got a holiday in 3/4 weeks time.

[OltonPete]

BHX

Originally Posted by JonnyH

They’ve decided to cancel some flights from BHX in a few weeks time - definitely to DLM and HER. Don’t know if any other routes or bases are affected.

i can only assume it’s to do with lack of aircraft, as they’re citing “operational reasons”, but it’s quite short notice if you’ve got a holiday in 3/4 weeks time.

They are not one-off cancellations but an early termination of certain frequencies and one route (PXO) due to the return of leased aircraft - pre-planned to a certain extent (I don't know the date the decision was made) and I posted it on the Birmingham thread.

It has been speculated that it is a result of the costs incurred on leasing aircraft in to cover the MAX. The first week in September sees BHX lose one based aircraft at least one month early and yes this is a cut and not part of the original schedule. Manchester loses about 20-21 weekly flights ansd Gatwick around 38 - 40. What I don't know about Manchester and Gatwick is whether this was in the original schedule whereas at BHX I can say for definite it wasn't. The base was due to reduce but not until the 1st October.

Pete

[ROC10]

Why has G-BYAW done MAN-RHO-DUB with the inbound sector being BY1651 (Saturday flight) today? According to FR24, C-GLRN operated this flight normally yesterday.

C-FFPH was tech today requiring G-FDZE to be brought in to cover the KGS flight. Not sure about any other Irish disruption.

Also, I’m surprised at the apparent healthy availability of spare TUI aircraft in recent weeks. Occasionally flights at the large bases are affected when their aircraft are pinched for cover but definitely not always. Are the leased aircraft allowing them to have the normal spare capacity they would’ve had with the MAXs?

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Originally Posted by ROC10

Why has G-BYAW done MAN-RHO-DUB with the inbound sector being BY1651 (Saturday flight) today? According to FR24, C-GLRN operated this flight normally yesterday.

C-FFPH was tech today requiring G-FDZE to be brought in to cover the KGS flight. Not sure about any other Irish disruption.

Also, I’m surprised at the apparent healthy availability of spare TUI aircraft in recent weeks. Occasionally flights at the large bases are affected when their aircraft are pinched for cover but definitely not always. Are the leased aircraft allowing them to have the normal spare capacity they would’ve had with the MAXs?

C-GLRN operated back to DUB empty due to crewing issues down route (and in order to protect Sundays flying program), with G-BYAW on the repatriation flight.