Airlines, Airports & Routes Topics about airports, routes and airline business.

Jet2-5

Old 23rd Oct 2020, 12:15
  #2901 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Northumberland
Posts: 5,983
It would depend on the respective cost of ownership of the different a/c. I would imagine there are many numbers being crunched to match up capacity with any number of possible supply scenarios for next summer.
SWBKCB is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 14:23
  #2902 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
No, you're absolutely right. I am actually surprised that, given the dire Covid situation in Austria, and particularly around Innsbruck, and the associated resorts, thy haven't scrubbed the ski flights for most of the season already. Thing aren't going to get better, you only have to look at how, even in Germany, where they (and I suspect we) thought they could hack it, numbers are seriously on the rise.
Which is why youíre on a spotters website and not in airline or tour operator management. Cancelling ski holidays 3-5 months in advance, and letting all that money leave the business in the form of refunds, and worse still, go to the competition is commercial suicide. Keeping that money in the business for another 2-4 months could be the difference between survival and not in these times.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 15:35
  #2903 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,233
Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
Which is why youíre on a spotters website and not in airline or tour operator management. Cancelling ski holidays 3-5 months in advance, and letting all that money leave the business in the form of refunds, and worse still, go to the competition is commercial suicide. Keeping that money in the business for another 2-4 months could be the difference between survival and not in these times.
I know more than a little about cash flow, I also know more than a little about customer service. Fact is though that you can't use cash you're more than likely to have to return to punters unless you're pretty certain there will be more coming in, which presently in this industry you simply can't. As for customer service, being up front with customers will buy you loyalty; holding on to cash then procrastinating over returning it to disappointed customers will lose you good will faster than you can say "Jack Robinson". It is, I appreciate, a difficult balancing act.

Personally I'm not giving any money in the form of deposits, or credit card numbers to any travel related business presently, be they a foreign holiday operator, a UK hotel or for that matter the pub restaurant down the road for the dreaded "Christmas Fayre". I have absolutely no confidence my booking would go ahead, and little confidence my money would be returned in full in a timely manner. That's not to tar Jet2 with any brush, I don't book IT holidays, and won't fly for as long as masks are required in airport and on board aircraft.
ATNotts is online now  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 18:15
  #2904 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by ATNotts View Post
I know more than a little about cash flow, I also know more than a little about customer service. Fact is though that you can't use cash you're more than likely to have to return to punters unless you're pretty certain there will be more coming in, which presently in this industry you simply can't. As for customer service, being up front with customers will buy you loyalty; holding on to cash then procrastinating over returning it to disappointed customers will lose you good will faster than you can say "Jack Robinson". It is, I appreciate, a difficult balancing act.
But whatís so negative about keeping the bookings active and only cancelling them when they know for sure they wonít go ahead, which is currently the Thursday before the departure date, whilst giving the customer the option to change their holiday if they want what they deem as more certainty?

One might deem it to be negative customer service if a holiday is cancelled which turns out to be completely fine to go ahead, as has happened with the Canaries.

The fact is that Jet2 are the only airline thatís had to restore their entire Canaries program for this week, so theyíve already started at a disadvantage to everybody else.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:07
  #2905 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Out of a bag
Posts: 574
Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
Which is why youíre on a spotters website and not in airline or tour operator management. Cancelling ski holidays 3-5 months in advance, and letting all that money leave the business in the form of refunds, and worse still, go to the competition is commercial suicide. Keeping that money in the business for another 2-4 months could be the difference between survival and not in these times.
Jet2 absolutely segregate customer deposits/payments until a holiday/flight is taken. Only at that point does the money enter the business. This is one of the reasons why the company was able and willing to so promptly refund customers when holidays/flights were being cancelled.
Flying Wild is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:18
  #2906 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
I have a current account and a savings account. If the current account is empty and I need to pay my mortgage or I lose my house, itís coming out of my savings account.

If a company is on its last legs, money in the business is money in the business. Itís going to be a long winter for most airlines, handing money back, potentially unnecessarily, 4 months in advance that may end up with a competitor isnít good for business.

Besides, a ski holiday is a ski holiday. If you cancel a holiday 4 months in advance, youíll probably be giving a refund. If you cancel a week in advance but can offer a similar holiday in a different country, chances are a good 50%+ will take it.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 20:12
  #2907 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: 0ft
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post

One might deem it to be negative customer service if a holiday is cancelled which turns out to be completely fine to go ahead, as has happened with the Canaries.

The fact is that Jet2 are the only airline thatís had to restore their entire Canaries program for this week, so theyíve already started at a disadvantage to everybody else.
Comparing cancelling canaries to ski routes is like apple and pears. For ski routes I am with you and others that cancelling this far out is commercial suicide. However I completely disagree with you regarding to canaries and it appears you seem to forget that a major part of the business model for Jet2 is the Jet2holidays brand.

Even in the beginning of this week no one would of seen the canaries coming back to life as they did. TUI did the exact same with cancelling but they are quicker maybe to mobilise with this news due to having the german arm of their business already operating. I wouldnít say anyone has the advantage, yes airlines may see full loads this Weekend, however there are a lot of people who maybe are not looking at this week but the week after. The fact that already in travel weekly, with the companies they did a call with, jet2holidays trade has reported 5,000 holidays sold just shows you everything you need to know.
LBAflyer22 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 21:01
  #2908 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by LBAflyer22 View Post
Comparing cancelling canaries to ski routes is like apple and pears. For ski routes I am with you and others that cancelling this far out is commercial suicide. However I completely disagree with you regarding to canaries and it appears you seem to forget that a major part of the business model for Jet2 is the Jet2holidays brand.

Even in the beginning of this week no one would of seen the canaries coming back to life as they did. TUI did the exact same with cancelling but they are quicker maybe to mobilise with this news due to having the german arm of their business already operating. I wouldnít say anyone has the advantage, yes airlines may see full loads this Weekend, however there are a lot of people who maybe are not looking at this week but the week after. The fact that already in travel weekly, with the companies they did a call with, jet2holidays trade has reported 5,000 holidays sold just shows you everything you need to know.
Actually a lot of people did see this coming. The rate for Lanzarote and Fuerteventura has been below 20/100,000 in 7 days for the past four weeks. I donít think anybody saw the whole lot coming back, but TUI certainly never took FUE/ACE off sale for this weekend.

5000 holidays is nothing. Thatís 26 full 737s, or half a dayís program in normal times. Fact is, TUI, easyJet, BA and Ryanair will all have flights to the Canaries this weekend which were never off sale, and arenít relying solely on last minute sales.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 21:35
  #2909 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: East London
Age: 38
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
Actually a lot of people did see this coming. The rate for Lanzarote and Fuerteventura has been below 20/100,000 in 7 days for the past four weeks. I donít think anybody saw the whole lot coming back, but TUI certainly never took FUE/ACE off sale for this weekend.

5000 holidays is nothing. Thatís 26 full 737s, or half a dayís program in normal times. Fact is, TUI, easyJet, BA and Ryanair will all have flights to the Canaries this weekend which were never off sale, and arenít relying solely on last minute sales.
But that is making an assumption the market now is behaving how it always has which isnít the case. For one thing a lot of holidays arenít new bookings and cash but postponed ones from earlier in the year. Who in their right mind would book more than a couple of weeks ahead? Yes Canaries have opened now but whoís to say they wonít do a Portugal and close again in a month or less? So last minute is now the dominant force.

On the supply side not having anything scheduled leaves you nimble and able to react quickly to opportunities. TUI and others could be lumbered with schedules which arenít optimum, or face the cost and customer service risk of having to rebook and refund
AirportPlanner1 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 22:05
  #2910 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by AirportPlanner1 View Post
But that is making an assumption the market now is behaving how it always has which isnít the case. For one thing a lot of holidays arenít new bookings and cash but postponed ones from earlier in the year. Who in their right mind would book more than a couple of weeks ahead? Yes Canaries have opened now but whoís to say they wonít do a Portugal and close again in a month or less? So last minute is now the dominant force.

On the supply side not having anything scheduled leaves you nimble and able to react quickly to opportunities. TUI and others could be lumbered with schedules which arenít optimum, or face the cost and customer service risk of having to rebook and refund
I think youíre scraping the barrel now. So why not just cancel everything thatís over a week away and put on a whole program a week in advance based on whatís open?

Keeping existing bookings is just as important as creating new ones. As has been said, giving all customers the option to amend if theyíd rather have a booking to a ďsaferĒ destination nullifies then customer service argument.

Jet2 fanboys are going to have to accept that they got this one wrong. If not tonight, then tomorrow when two fully booked TUI 787s are on their way to Fuerteventura whilst Jet2 are offering nothing.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 11:01
  #2911 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Joined 2005 was Alycidon
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by Vokes55 View Post
two fully booked TUI 787s are on their way to Fuerteventura.
I wouldn't get too excited about that, for one thing they'll be returning to the UK empty and for another thing, many of the passengers on board will have paid for their holiday months ago so there will not be a lot of new revenue being generated.
D9009 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:06
  #2912 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
Originally Posted by D9009 View Post
I wouldn't get too excited about that, for one thing they'll be returning to the UK empty and for another thing, many of the passengers on board will have paid for their holiday months ago so there will not be a lot of new revenue being generated.
TUI and Jet2 (and other charter airlines of the past) have operated empty sectors at the start and end of seasons since the dawn of time.

So what have we established from the Jet2 fanboys then. All holidays should be cancelled and reinstated a week in advance, but then they should be cancelled too because the first flight after the lifting of restrictions would involve an empty sector back.

As for your second point, this has been explained many times, even in my last post which you quoted. Keeping money in the business is just as important as generating new revenue, especially in these times. I think TUI will be far happier with their approach than Jet2 will be.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 16:41
  #2913 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 35,000ft
Posts: 870
Originally Posted by D9009 View Post
I wouldn't get too excited about that, for one thing they'll be returning to the UK empty and for another thing, many of the passengers on board will have paid for their holiday months ago so there will not be a lot of new revenue being generated.
For the business thatís probably somewhere around the £450k mark of refunds that no longer have to happen. That alone from just these two flights.

Like has been mentioned, most leisure flights return empty after the first flight of the season, just as they depart the UK empty at the end of the season. Itís common practice.
pamann is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 22:00
  #2914 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Co
Posts: 72
All B757ís apart from two that need to go for heavy maintenance checks are going to Spain - Murcia over the winter from the 3rd of November onwards for some warmer weather.- planning to ferry 1 out each day.
irishlad06 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 22:28
  #2915 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Joined 2005 was Alycidon
Posts: 19
Like has been mentioned, most leisure flights return empty after the first flight of the season, just as they depart the UK empty at the end of the season. It’s common practice.
but EZY,RYR and your other competitors avoid this 1970s business model.
D9009 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 23:51
  #2916 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 35,000ft
Posts: 870
Originally Posted by D9009 View Post
but EZY,RYR and your other competitors avoid this 1970s business model.
Yeah they might do. But for instance when EZY/FR operate their last outbound of the season to say Kefalonia from London, do you really think itís packed to the brim? From past experience these flights have very few passengers (if any). In some instances this costs the airline more in airport charges (ie check in etc) than it would to just operate the flight empty.

There really is very little outbound demand on say the 31st October to Kefalonia or similar.
pamann is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 02:52
  #2917 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: The EU
Posts: 473
Besides, the cost of empty sectors at the beginning/end of the season is simply included in everybodyís holiday price. Itís not a surprising, unaccounted for cost to the company.

With a bit of tactical scheduling, some seasonal ferry flights can often be avoided. For example the first Winter season flight to Egypt would return via Crete, picking up the last Summer passengers on its way home.
Vokes55 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 07:38
  #2918 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Joined 2005 was Alycidon
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by pamann View Post
Yeah they might do. But for instance when EZY/FR operate their last outbound of the season to say Kefalonia from London, do you really think itís packed to the brim? From past experience these flights have very few passengers (if any).
fair point, well made.
D9009 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 08:13
  #2919 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: East London
Age: 38
Posts: 295
Originally Posted by D9009 View Post
but EZY,RYR and your other competitors avoid this 1970s business model.
Really?! How? Iíve seen 8 pax jump on an EZY to Menorca, two of which had usefully purchased speedy boarding
AirportPlanner1 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2020, 08:27
  #2920 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: London
Posts: 289
I doubt they would operate from Egypt via Crete unless they changed the crew - they don’t have enough duty hours.....
TOM100 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.