Loganair-2
Join Date: Nov 2014
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Any government bailout of Loganair is likely to result in a massively smaller company with focus on lifeline services only. Operating routes like Exeter to Glasgow are hardly lifeline so expect those sorts of routes to not operate.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Suffolk, Diss, UK
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I have friends on Lewis and the Loganair flights to Inverness and Glasgow are lifeline services. Especially in bad weather when the ferry gets cancelled.
If you live in Shetland, Loganair are the sole carrier so your alternative is an overnight ferry to Aberdeen. The island communities needs to be protected at all costs.
If you live in Shetland, Loganair are the sole carrier so your alternative is an overnight ferry to Aberdeen. The island communities needs to be protected at all costs.
Join Date: May 2011
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Exactly this Goldeneye, people who are undergoing cancer treatment require these services to make appointments on a certain day, something a ferry isn't useful for due to length of time etc especially for someone who is unwell. So many other reasons that some posters just don't understand. But I agree with sharklet that the company is likely to be smaller as some routes definitely aren't lifeline to say the least!
But again - taking the emotional side apart - at what cost? Economically does it makes sense or do we just need a patient transfer airline servicing small aircraft hopping between the UK's Islands? Running around in expensive to operate ERJ's isn't going to keep the stability going forward and nor is buying 25 year old ATR's.
Join Date: May 2006
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I for one completely understand it as mentioned above, they're also transporting IOM patients to hospital appointents in Liverpool.
But again - taking the emotional side apart - at what cost? Economically does it makes sense or do we just need a patient transfer airline servicing small aircraft hopping between the UK's Islands? Running around in expensive to operate ERJ's isn't going to keep the stability going forward and nor is buying 25 year old ATR's.
But again - taking the emotional side apart - at what cost? Economically does it makes sense or do we just need a patient transfer airline servicing small aircraft hopping between the UK's Islands? Running around in expensive to operate ERJ's isn't going to keep the stability going forward and nor is buying 25 year old ATR's.
Join Date: Aug 2005
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That might be a good compromise. A bail out but only for lifeline services, but no commercial flights anymore.
Join Date: Aug 2016
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But in normal times many of the lifeline services were commercial, ie without any PSO grant. Certainly I would see the role of PWC as being to ensure that the government subsidy can't be used to prop up other parts of the business.
There are two separate things being discussed here:
1. A bail-out or state capital injection into LM.
2. Support for vital lifeline routes.
In my view, there is little justification for the first, although the Scottish "Government" may think otherwise. I would argue that LM should be offered the same benefits that other companies have received, such as 80% of staff costs for furloughing, but no more and no less. I suspect HMG will think the same.
The second is a much more compelling argument for the reasons advanced in recent posts. Likely to take the form of a PSO, and offered on a route-by-route basis.
1. A bail-out or state capital injection into LM.
2. Support for vital lifeline routes.
In my view, there is little justification for the first, although the Scottish "Government" may think otherwise. I would argue that LM should be offered the same benefits that other companies have received, such as 80% of staff costs for furloughing, but no more and no less. I suspect HMG will think the same.
The second is a much more compelling argument for the reasons advanced in recent posts. Likely to take the form of a PSO, and offered on a route-by-route basis.
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There are two separate things being discussed here:
1. A bail-out or state capital injection into LM.
2. Support for vital lifeline routes.
In my view, there is little justification for the first, although the Scottish "Government" may think otherwise. I would argue that LM should be offered the same benefits that other companies have received, such as 80% of staff costs for furloughing, but no more and no less. I suspect HMG will think the same.
The second is a much more compelling argument for the reasons advanced in recent posts. Likely to take the form of a PSO, and offered on a route-by-route basis.
1. A bail-out or state capital injection into LM.
2. Support for vital lifeline routes.
In my view, there is little justification for the first, although the Scottish "Government" may think otherwise. I would argue that LM should be offered the same benefits that other companies have received, such as 80% of staff costs for furloughing, but no more and no less. I suspect HMG will think the same.
The second is a much more compelling argument for the reasons advanced in recent posts. Likely to take the form of a PSO, and offered on a route-by-route basis.
The latter point of lifeline services could be operated by a Class B AOC holder, less legal obligations, smaller planes. Surely?
Let us suppose for a moment that Loganair cannot survive. Just for a moment in a theoretical world. I ask this to see how critical it is that Loganair survive or whether a credible fallback option exists. I realise that in a real dire emergency these routes could be operated by the RAF, but I'm assuming Govt would prefer a private sector company to do the flying instead
Which other airlines would be willing and able to take on the island routes, including those which are not currently PSO ?
Could Directflight do this with extra pilots and aircraft, or would it be too much expansion too fast ?
Eastern - or are their finances in a bad shape already ?
Any other airlines ?
Which other airlines would be willing and able to take on the island routes, including those which are not currently PSO ?
Could Directflight do this with extra pilots and aircraft, or would it be too much expansion too fast ?
Eastern - or are their finances in a bad shape already ?
Any other airlines ?
I seem to recall that Loganair operate a couple of Twin Otters owned by the Scottish Government. Presumably those would form part of the package to support outlying communities.
Join Date: Apr 2020
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Looks like most would rather see Loganair fail due to misguided information, rumour, ignorance and massive chips on shoulders.
One thing that the armchair airline COO's have failed to grasp by the looks of things - Any government support will be repayable at a price.
Loganair might be the only airline left that could realistically connect all the regions of the UK on the other side of this dreadful period, that would in itself provide an ECONOMIC benefit for
the country as many have missed.
I for one would like them to survive and flourish, as with most of my colleagues our livelihoods depend on it doing what it does best - serving communities throughout the UK.
One thing that the armchair airline COO's have failed to grasp by the looks of things - Any government support will be repayable at a price.
Loganair might be the only airline left that could realistically connect all the regions of the UK on the other side of this dreadful period, that would in itself provide an ECONOMIC benefit for
the country as many have missed.
I for one would like them to survive and flourish, as with most of my colleagues our livelihoods depend on it doing what it does best - serving communities throughout the UK.
Last edited by tallaonejuliet; 20th Apr 2020 at 11:35. Reason: grammar
Join Date: Aug 2019
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The level of judgement being passed on the basis of guesswork and no facts makes for fascinating reading. We don't know if the "bailout" is a loan or a subsidy. If it is a loan then easyJet took a £600 million loan from the Government only ten days ago. Are you seriously arguing that Loganair shouldn't have access to a similar, proportionate ability to borrow?
It's said that the Embraers are a lot cheaper to operate than the 2000s (although that wouldn't be difficult) and only one of them operates "short, low level hops" around the islands - they don't really fly the island routes as they can't land at most of them! Fuel costs were always the main issue of the Embraer anyway and that doesn't look like it's going to be a problem any time soon.
It's said that the Embraers are a lot cheaper to operate than the 2000s (although that wouldn't be difficult) and only one of them operates "short, low level hops" around the islands - they don't really fly the island routes as they can't land at most of them! Fuel costs were always the main issue of the Embraer anyway and that doesn't look like it's going to be a problem any time soon.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Seems a bit unfair that Loganair should be denied any government support for their commercial operations, while companies in other industries can receive it. Loganair is a profitable, viable company who have been heavily impacted by the current situation we find ourselves in.
I would imagine that the government will be wanting to make sure that any assistance received by Loganair is necessary, used properly and that there is no conflict of interest with their aircraft lease obligations and lessors, along with the ultimate ownership of the companies involved..
I would imagine that the government will be wanting to make sure that any assistance received by Loganair is necessary, used properly and that there is no conflict of interest with their aircraft lease obligations and lessors, along with the ultimate ownership of the companies involved..
Perhaps worth noting than in the 12 months ending 31 March 2019, Loganair made a profit of £1m on turnover of £120m
Profitable yes, but a 0.8% profit margin when times were good is not particularly inspiring. Easyjet's profit margin was 7% by way of comparison. Any commercial bank lending money would be concerned about Loganair's ability to repay a loan. If Loganair need a loan, it's likely to be measured in the millions rather than thousands
Profitable yes, but a 0.8% profit margin when times were good is not particularly inspiring. Easyjet's profit margin was 7% by way of comparison. Any commercial bank lending money would be concerned about Loganair's ability to repay a loan. If Loganair need a loan, it's likely to be measured in the millions rather than thousands
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Perhaps worth noting than in the 12 months ending 31 March 2019, Loganair made a profit of £1m on turnover of £120m
Profitable yes, but a 0.8% profit margin when times were good is not particularly inspiring. Easyjet's profit margin was 7% by way of comparison. Any commercial bank lending money would be concerned about Loganair's ability to repay a loan. If Loganair need a loan, it's likely to be measured in the millions rather than thousands
Profitable yes, but a 0.8% profit margin when times were good is not particularly inspiring. Easyjet's profit margin was 7% by way of comparison. Any commercial bank lending money would be concerned about Loganair's ability to repay a loan. If Loganair need a loan, it's likely to be measured in the millions rather than thousands
Perhaps worth noting than in the 12 months ending 31 March 2019, Loganair made a profit of £1m on turnover of £120m
Profitable yes, but a 0.8% profit margin when times were good is not particularly inspiring. Easyjet's profit margin was 7% by way of comparison. Any commercial bank lending money would be concerned about Loganair's ability to repay a loan. If Loganair need a loan, it's likely to be measured in the millions rather than thousands
Profitable yes, but a 0.8% profit margin when times were good is not particularly inspiring. Easyjet's profit margin was 7% by way of comparison. Any commercial bank lending money would be concerned about Loganair's ability to repay a loan. If Loganair need a loan, it's likely to be measured in the millions rather than thousands
If the plan is for LM to serve the English regions moving forward then surely some Westminster funding would be needed for that aspect of the operation if the Scottish taxpayers aren’t going to subsidise that side of things, if it comes to it.
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Please do not make me laugh...
Flying a few PPE masks to IOM anyone can do.. It is not a Dash8 operation by Voyageur in Ebola enviorment flying patients and front line troops...
All the airlines are doing fab work flying to China and bringing back these equipments but it does not come close to Ebola flights or an WFP mission in South Sudan, Syria or Somalia.. just my 2 cents.. mate..
Join Date: Feb 2017
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Lifeline services are those provided by the Scottish Air Ambulance with helicopters and small aircraft.
Looking back to the days of the BEA Viscounts, the planes were always well filled. Mostly local people travelling to and from their occupations, ex Pat's visiting family, business people etc. Everyone paid the same fare. Nowadays, if you have a local address you qualify for a lower fare than someone visiting family from the mainland, so these people just drive up to the ferry. For years I used to fly up and rent a car, now I look at the fares offered and if there are a few of us there isn't much change from a grand and still a car hire to add on.
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Can you find me the queue of airlines willing to take on PSO routes? They are not in the UK. We no longer have a dynamic airline market with small airlines entering and leaving on a regular basis. This is because of the high costs of obtaining an operating licence and competition from bigger airlines. I suspect that the answer at Loganair will be funding PSO routes but the airline will need to be kept in business to operate those routes and you can't just bin 50% of the airline at no cost.
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Can you find me the queue of airlines willing to take on PSO routes? They are not in the UK. We no longer have a dynamic airline market with small airlines entering and leaving on a regular basis. This is because of the high costs of obtaining an operating licence and competition from bigger airlines. I suspect that the answer at Loganair will be funding PSO routes but the airline will need to be kept in business to operate those routes and you can't just bin 50% of the airline at no cost.